Make Your Own Destiny: starting at level 9, a fighter can, once a year, make a world-changing speech that will rally the population behind him, regardless of charisma. For military purposes, the number of citizen rallied is equal to 2000 hit dice times the fighter level for a duration equal to 2 days per fighter level. At level 13: 3000 x ftr level hit dice and 2 weeks per level. At level 17: 5000 x ftr level hit dice and 1 month per level.Seeing the lack of response, I'm guessing the game has irrevocably moved from overall agents of change within a larger campaign setting towards a game of numbers aimed at increasing the power of a single being? :)
the thing a PMed you about has several abilities that give you either armies or friends or friends in high places
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Also, DPR means s##~. I recently really messed up one of my GM's most DPR effective bad guy by simply disarming him. Improved Disarm: one feat. Taken at level 6 as part of a ranger's combat style. That's it.
If your campaign is centered around constantly fighting kaijus with claws and bite sure, go two-handed barbarian and focus everything on damage... or invest in a character with a good dominate monster DC. However if your campaign is somewhat balanced go for a balanced character that has other tricks than "doing damage", and see your appreciation for this game greatly enhanced.
dominate monster works on people too, and is really effective outside combat.
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Question: if casters are so great, why oh why do the majority of tables seem to have a problem filling the full arcane and full divine caster roles? Maybe I'm biased because I've been playing with the same group for a while now, but I remember that people use to pick wizards and clerics way more often before PRPG came out. Wait... could it be...... that.... [gasp!] PRPG has actually really improved martials and kinda kept wizards and clerics the same? (don't make me laugh and evoke the concept of school or domain powers here...)
Because playing Wizards and Clerics is hard. You actually have to *gasp* read many additional pages of rules. Do you know how many times I've had to correct different people as to what spells *actually* do? Most players simply haven't invested the time to understand how full casters of any stripe work. I assume your fall off is that no one wants to reread the PF spells to find the swath of minor but important changes from 3.5.
And PFRPG keeping caster the same? Even in CRB, the moment I saw Diviner Wizards Forewarned power, I facepalmed. You know what CRB ability competes with that? None of them. Additionally, when I got to the feat section I laughed out loud. Martial feats had been broken up into 2 feats, meaning even though everyone gained feats, making restatting an old martial would cost you significantly more feats. Meanwhile all of the caster feats continued to have no prerequisites, essentially handing casters far more feats then they would have had in 3.5.
Take a look at high level caster sheet and see how many of your players have similarly lengthy sheets. That's probably where your answer is.
Also, simply look at the Vigilante playtest.
The main justification i have heard for the "Talents to unlock spellcasting" thing is that the Warlock and the Zealot need to be balanced against the Avenger and Stalker. So literally the casters are MADE WORSE because they have to be balanced against non casters. If there was no stalker or avenger, spellcasting would not be an issue snce there are already casters in armor (summoner, magus, bard)
So yeah... just leaving that there...
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Raltus wrote:For out of combat for a fighter why not give them the ability:
War Stories: The fighter adds 1/2 his level to diplomacy and knowledge (local) when talking with any mundane military personal or peasants.
This could include city guards, locals, children as they could trade stories and gather intel. This would be basic nothing overly major but stories and rumors.
add knowledge nobility add i think it covers military tactics and ranks and add bluff as some stories are easily enhanced ;)
I agree with adding knowledge nobility and some bluff. Gives the Fighter out of combat fun to be had, sure it is with a select group but it is pretty much the general populace.
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@ Anzyr:
martials now have more abilities per level (armor training, weapon training, bravery, rogue talents, etc.) in addition to the faster feat progression everyone has...
you make a good point about casters having more feats though; that is a significant boost; however I don't see many people investing those in the old classics like Spell Focus (perhaps they were just used as feat tax to archmage?)
@ Raltus:
agreed! I don't mind if that boost would be applicable to everyone not just guards and peasants, because nobles and pretty much everyone would be impressed by war stories (with the exclusion of environmental activists and mothers against drunk driving)
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Question: if casters are so great, why oh why do the majority of tables seem to have a problem filling the full arcane and full divine caster roles? Maybe I'm biased because I've been playing with the same group for a while now, but I remember that people use to pick wizards and clerics way more often before PRPG came out. Wait... could it be...... that.... [gasp!] PRPG has actually really improved martials and kinda kept wizards and clerics the same? (don't make me laugh and evoke the concept of school or domain powers here...)
Because some people actually realize that while a class may be underpowered, you can still have fun with it, while far too many people seem to be incapable of looking at something's power objectively. "I like it, therefore it is strong."
My favorite class is Monk (well, any class that gets to put up 'is dukes). Unarmed Fighting is one of the weaker fighting styles in the game, but it's still fun.
Wizards and Clerics aren't some people's cup of tea. Either due to bookkeeping (which there's a LOT of) or because they want to smack something around.
It has no bearing on the power of the classes. I really have no idea how people think casters aren't stronger. ALL you have to do is give the spell list a good look over. Even just the CRB spells. It's self-evident.
But some do. In part because they delude themselves into thinking that pointing out a class' power is under par is some kind of personal attack because they like that class. So they defend it (or them) constantly because somehow they've determined that their liking of the class makes it more powerful than it actually is, and therefore anything pointing out how weak it is makes them wrong for liking it.
I feel like a lot of people would enjoy themselves more if they dropped that conceit and came to terms with the fact that they enjoy playing the class regardless of its power rather than trying to ignore reality.
martials now have more abilities per level (armor training, weapon training, bravery, rogue talents, etc.
Why did you try to use the weakest class abilities to try and make your case?
Weapon Training is just +1s. Armor Training is just -1s (and a bit of extra speed). Rogue Talents suck ass so hard they had to make an entirely new book with a good chunk devoted to making them even slightly better.
Bravery is just...sad. Barbarians get a flat bonus to Will and Fort saves. Paladins get a BIG bonus to ALL saves, and immunity to the thing Bravery applies to.
Fighter gets a piddling bonus to saves against ONE THING.
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@ Rynjin: I agree that some garbage has slipped into the game, like Toppling Spells and other unmentionables. I agree these new options are pretty powerful but I don't see a united, full-proof build being peddled around for all casters to use. For the same reason you like Monks, not everyone wants to play a Wizard with this or that spell, 'cause everyone has a unique build in mind for their character, in general. However, in general and when I look across the board, I see wizards and clerics as pretty much the same as before, but I see huge boosts between PRPG martials and their 3.5 counterparts. I'm playing in a 3.5 campaign right now and I rolled a wizard, which plays pretty much the same as a PRPG wizard. However, the 3.5 rogue is just plain sad. So, so, so sad....
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toppling sucks
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@ Rynjin: you said you like monks, so perhaps you don't recall how s+*&ty it was to run around with a fighter in full plate in 3.5? I don't see armor training as weak. A fighter with a properly enchanted ~35K+ full plate with ~25K+ shield is awesome (spread those armor enchants around, don't pool it into a +5 plain... at least take light fortification, human defiance to make up for the AC loss, some energy resistance on both, and perhaps slick and shadow...)
Have a friendly divine caster put Magic Vestment on the armor (hour/level duration) and Bob's your uncle.
Granted, high level play can be frustrating as all critters can blow past your AC; potion of barkskin +5 is always on my guys at level 9+, just in case it blows hard...
Oh, and you're still ignoring the fact that the problem you're complaining about was made less bad by PRPG. It was way worse in 3.5. Not perfect now, but a huge step forward. Give Stamina Pool to the fighter and you're starting to have something decent here. Oh, and Cape of Free Will, and someone casting Unbreakable Heart on your guy, too...
So, here's an idea: Hero Points. It's a neat mechanic that's sitting right there in the APG. We tweak it a little bit, add some additional uses, and make it a daily resource for martial characters (let's say 1/2 your level, minimum 1 point). For example:
- Second Wind: as a swift action, recover 1d8 hit points per level and heal 1d4 damage to your ability scores (distributed as desired). If used out of combat over one minute, the amount of hit point and ability score damage healed is doubled. A successful Heal check (DC 15 + 1/2 your character level) when out of combat instead triples the amount healed. Second Wind removes the fatigued condition and reduces exhaustion to fatigued.
- Combat Resilience: reduce the damage taken by any one attack, spell, or effect by half. If a saving throw is involved, a success negates any harmful conditions you would otherwise acquire. If affected by a spell or effect that does not allow a saving throw, you can roll an appropriate type of saving throw using the caster's normal DC for a spell of that level or 10 + 1/2 the attackers HD + their most relevant ability score modifier. A success on this saving throw halves any damage and negates any harmful effects.
- Recall Training: choose one skill. For one minute per character level, this is a class skill for you in which you have maximum ranks. You also gain the Skill Unlock feat for that skill for this duration.
The "Inspiriation" and "Special" categories open up even more options, subject to GM allowance. Need information on what the enemy super-priest is doing? You know a guy in some fey-lord's court. Looking for a way into the hyper-fortified enemy planar stronghold? You follow a hunch to a weak-point in the nearby Prime where it's easier and safer to cross over. Want to trip the Tarrasque and chuck it 30 ft. into an open gate spell? You can do it. Want to rally an entire army to your side stomp a superior foe? Done. It could also be used to pick up feats, mimic low-power spell effects, temporarily gain access to archetype abilities for your class, and more. As long as the more powerful effects require a check of some sort and don't outstrip a spell of respective level in power, this should work for lots of things.
@ Rynjin: you said you like monks, so perhaps you don't recall how s%$#ty it was to run around with a fighter in full plate in 3.5? I don't see armor training as weak. A fighter with a properly enchanted ~35K+ full plate with ~25K+ shield is awesome (spread those armor enchants around, don't pool it into a +5 plain... at least take light fortification, human defiance to make up for the AC loss, some energy resistance on both, and perhaps slick and shadow...)
Have a friendly divine caster put Magic Vestment on the armor (hour/level duration) and Bob's your uncle.
Granted, high level play can be frustrating as all critters can blow past your AC; potion of barkskin +5 is always on my guys at level 9+, just in case it blows hard...
Oh, and you're still ignoring the fact that the problem you're complaining about was made less bad by PRPG. It was way worse in 3.5. Not perfect now, but a huge step forward. Give Stamina Pool to the fighter and you're starting to have something decent here. Oh, and Cape of Free Will, and someone casting Unbreakable Heart on your guy, too...
I don't see how 3.5 is relevant to this discussion. Nobody here is talking about 3.5. They're talking about Pathfinder.
"Less bad" and "good" are not equivalent values.
Besides which, a very simple magic item replicates Armor Training even with Full Plate. Grab some Boots of Striding and Springing. They're cheap. Now you move at 30.
Likewise "A caster can shore up my main class problems" doesn't really do much to address "Casters are more powerful", does it?
And "There's not a single powerful fool proof build" is missing the point for a third time. There are a LOT of powerful Wizard builds, and the fun thing about Wizards: All of their power comes from their spells. Which they can change every day.
Wizards have build flexibility second to none, except maybe Clerics (who don't even have the spellbook limitation), because they can load up on some spells one day, decide they don't like them, and roll with others the next.
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Agreed. Full casters become powerful. Not everyone likes the bookkeeping though, and not everyone can stomach playing something that doesn't involve rolling any dice and just saying to the DM, "Roll a Ref Save DC 16".
Keep in mind that martials gain in power the more fights you throw at the party in a single day though... so while I agree that a lot of your complaints are grounded in DPR or class-vs.-class comparisons, keep in mind that environmental and DM factors are also huge in making casters better than they really are.
Also, Alkenstar. Bring them to Alkenstar, and similar magic-dead areas... ;)
martials start to die the longer the day goes, not get more powerful.
edit: now i'm not trying to be mean or anything but if your party was taken down by that they probably weren't very organized or optimized, or maybe the GM is just over optimized looking at you falchion.
I've played my Daring Champion in enough sessions to know that the difference between having my Bard and not having my Bard is the difference between being nearly assured success and being on the brink of death in every fight.
If I'm not there, we still have a Magus.
martials start to die the longer the day goes, not get more powerful.Spellcasters blow their load on the first encounter and then insist that they're sleepy and it's time to rest for the night.
At 9 AM. (assuming the party got a late start that day)
must have been a sorcerer else they should have been more intelligent :3
martials start to die the longer the day goes, not get more powerful.
edit: now i'm not trying to be mean or anything but if your party was taken down by that they probably weren't very organized or optimized, or maybe the GM is just over optimized looking at you falchion.
That's six CR 6 bad guys, actually. According to the CR scaling rules, this comes out to a CR 11 "hard" encounter. If they had PC equivalent gear, it's a CR 12 battle, "epic" rating.
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That's six CR 6 bad guys, actually. According to the CR scaling rules, this comes out to a CR 11 "hard" encounter. If they had PC equivalent gear, it's a CR 12 battle, "epic" rating.martials start to die the longer the day goes, not get more powerful.
edit: now i'm not trying to be mean or anything but if your party was taken down by that they probably weren't very organized or optimized, or maybe the GM is just over optimized looking at you falchion.
i'm thinking too, if they focus fired down the PCs they probably could have won pretty easily with overflank and falchions.
though like i keep bringing up every few pages of the various trheads.
IT'S NOT ABOUT WHO CAN KILL WHOM! AAAHASDFHSGSGHSRTHERH
That's six CR 6 bad guys, actually. According to the CR scaling rules, this comes out to a CR 11 "hard" encounter. If they had PC equivalent gear, it's a CR 12 battle, "epic" rating.martials start to die the longer the day goes, not get more powerful.
edit: now i'm not trying to be mean or anything but if your party was taken down by that they probably weren't very organized or optimized, or maybe the GM is just over optimized looking at you falchion.
This is where the CR system starts to break down, though.
Generally speaking a Fighter or whatever should be dropping one of those guys per round with basic stuff (Power Attack and a high Str), and they should have a relatively hard time hitting, unless the NPCs are optimized to PC standards.
So the EFFECTIVE CR of the encounter ranges from "Way easy" to "Death".
Such archetypes would be significantly better than the base Fighter in every situation, which is what Paizo claims to try to avoid based on their stance with regards to the Lore Warden.
On the other hand, they did make the Eldritch Guardian. They couldn't have possibly thought the EG was balanced against a Core Fighter... right?
(as a note, I'm asking because the EG is balanced against the Barbarian and Paladin. the EG is wonderful and I love it)
Eldritch Guardian/Mutation Warrior/Martial Master
Fighters are so bad, the strongest version is the one that replaces every single class feature.
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That's six CR 6 bad guys, actually. According to the CR scaling rules, this comes out to a CR 11 "hard" encounter. If they had PC equivalent gear, it's a CR 12 battle, "epic" rating.martials start to die the longer the day goes, not get more powerful.
edit: now i'm not trying to be mean or anything but if your party was taken down by that they probably weren't very organized or optimized, or maybe the GM is just over optimized looking at you falchion.
This is where the CR system starts to break down, though.
Generally speaking a Fighter or whatever should be dropping one of those guys per round with basic stuff (Power Attack and a high Str), and they should have a relatively hard time hitting, unless the NPCs are optimized to PC standards.
So the EFFECTIVE CR of the encounter ranges from "Way easy" to "Death".
That's the problem I'm trying to illustrate. Everyone is dumping on the fighter and the rogue, yet lower level rogue/fighters almost made a meal of our party.
Because, you know, our party is too cool to be effective (no lowly fighters and rogues for us, uh-huh!! no, we thought coolness would prevail and went oracle, witch, gunslinger and ninja/barbarian/oracle... oh, yeah, we were badass at low levels; now hilarity ensues... I'm becoming a big fan of the basics lately)
Build with high skill floor also happens to have a high skill ceiling, news at 11
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In related news, thieves' guilds all over Golarion have been firing their Alchemist CEOs left and right, instead replacing management with a Rogue Union structure. When the Head of the College of Alchemy was interviewed, he had this to say: "I've been telling our Alchemist Doctors many years now... and they don't listen. Alchemy is not meant for sharing. When the mooks are as strong as the boss, there's no need for a boss."
-Smurf
Eldritch Guardian/Mutation Warrior/Martial MasterCool combo, but this looks like a headache to play (thinking about one or two floater feats to choose, when to activate the mutagen, etc. on top of all the feats sharing with the familiar... geez louise, each round will take you 5min)Trust me as someone who's played a very-focused Malconvoker who was summoning all the time [probably comparable to a Master Summoner firing on all cylinders] players CAN learn to take complicated turns very quickly.
Frequently I had 8-10 pieces on the battlefield and out of 6 players I was the second fastest with my turns, typically taking 1-2 minutes.
I'm going to second this. As someone who also played a Malconvoker, my turns were probably some of the fastest in the group. Despite the fact that I would routinely have not just multiple summons (thanks to Malconvoker) but multiple different types of Summons thanks to stuff like Conjure Ice Beast. I just prepared all of my Summon's sheets in advance and had them in notepad files.
this reminds me of the days i played xcom enemy unknown competitively and completed turns in 6 seconds with 6 units so that the enemy couldn't listen for my footsteps. when people feel like it, they can hammer out complicated strategy when they get it down to an instinctual level.
I'm going to second this. As someone who also played a Malconvoker, my turns were probably some of the fastest in the group. Despite the fact that I would routine have not just multiple summons (thanks to Malconvoker) but multiple different types of Summons thanks to stuff like Conjure Ice Beast. I just prepared all of my Summon's sheets in advance and had them in notepad files.Eldritch Guardian/Mutation Warrior/Martial MasterCool combo, but this looks like a headache to play (thinking about one or two floater feats to choose, when to activate the mutagen, etc. on top of all the feats sharing with the familiar... geez louise, each round will take you 5min)Trust me as someone who's played a very-focused Malconvoker who was summoning all the time [probably comparable to a Master Summoner firing on all cylinders] players CAN learn to take complicated turns very quickly.
Frequently I had 8-10 pieces on the battlefield and out of 6 players I was the second fastest with my turns, typically taking 1-2 minutes.
Index cards for me.
And tons of color coded dice sets.
As with a lot of things in Pathfinder, how fast your turn goes has a lot more to do with your system mastery than what class you're playing. I've seen complicated characters take fast turns in a good player's hands, and simple ones take forever when the player running them seems baffled by something as simple as making an attack role.
Jam, you realize that one thing you did was exacerbate the front loading of the fighter class by giving them the best goodies up front, right?
So a one level dip merits the best rewards for dippers, getting a combat feat in addition to two stamina feats, the highest level of stamina, and the d10.
You would probably be better off NOT giving martials any extra stamina via bonus feats, and simply assigning it as a class benefit that improves by level, with fighter getting the best improvement, as opposed to the best start.
I could see rangers and paladins getting a stamina point any level they don't get a magical power. This is going to be VERY infrequent for paladins, who gain smites, channels, spells and sword bonds...so they'll probably have near base stamina forever unless they blow a feat.
I can see Barbs getting a stamina point anytime they don't get a rage power or improve their rage.
I can see fighters getting a point every level, or even more, perhaps every time they get a combat feat, so they can get an IMMENSE ppol of stamina after a while. Rogues, any level they don't get a Talent, probably.
I can see monks getting points if they don't get ki points. Ditto grit, panache, etc. AND they clearly don't get a magical power, if appropriate.
I can't see full casters getting any without blowing a feat. They'd train their casting, not their stamina.
-==Aelryinth
Jam,
Well, it is a design difference.
I tend to prefer front-loading/skimping with core stuff that the game gives away. That also makes them valuable.
I have no problem with the fighter having less stamina at level 1 then a gunslinger does functionable grit, as long as the fighter gets stamina much faster then the gunslinger gets grit.
I also tend to find stat-based, instead of level or rank-based, bonuses annoying.
Getting 4 grit at level 1 and only able to use 1-2 stamina tricks wouldn't bother me at all. If that's all a paladin gets...that's basically equal to a fighter blowing a feat on godless healing and getting to heal 1/day, which is less healing then a paladin's lay on hands ends up being by level 5.
Make the paladin invest feats in stamina if he wants stamina tricks. Odds are, he'd rather invest his feats in extra healing, extra mercy, i.e. stuff that is actually powerful and useful. Let him think, if a Fighter pulls off a nice stunt "I could do that, if I really wanted to", just like any other combat feat, but somehow, he's never going to waste the feats to do so, because he having your cake and eating it too is something he ALREADY has. No need to add stamina to the mix.
==Aelryinth