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Real simple question: Would you support a joint 3PP Adventure Path on Kickstarter? As for 3PP we are talking all the top people and companies? Thanks!
It would depend more on what it was about.
Having multiple companies involved would be an added risk, but I wouldn't rule it out just based on that. I'd think it would be essential to have one, "main" publisher and my decision would be partly based on my impression of whoever that was.
Yes, definitely. One caveat: If the adventures are not short modules, but "proper" length. Some short modules offer plenty of material (e.g. AAW Games' Winterflower), but these days, I've had 3 (!!!) short modules in one epic-length session (12 hours) - build-up and denouement took longer than playing the modules. A module should at least take 6-8 hours to complete.
Yes, definitely. One caveat: If the adventures are not short modules, but "proper" length. Some short modules offer plenty of material (e.g. AAW Games' Winterflower), but these days, I've had 3 (!!!) short modules in one epic-length session (12 hours) - build-up and denouement took longer than playing the modules. A module should at least take 6-8 hours to complete.
OK what type of word length is a "proper" adventure?
Hmm, as mentioned, it depends - I can get behind short modules; Cold Night, Winterflower, The Sinking's better modules, the short Kobold Press anthology modules. At the same time, I have played A LOT of society modules in my game and they disappointed VERY often; same goes for the old 32-page Paizomodule-line; thta one got much better with longer modules.
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Had I the money and I liked the concept sure.
It depends on the scope and theme I guess. Lately the things I've noticed more readily are the ones outside of the medieval-stasis box or deeper in it than Golarion is.
Yep.
Real simple question: Would you support a joint 3PP Adventure Path on Kickstarter? As for 3PP we are talking all the top people and companies? Thanks!
Short answer: maybe.
Longer answer: I would rather support a non-Kickstarted Adventure Path from 3PPs. Not that I'm opposed to Kickstarting, I would like to have product like Paizo's Paths that I can look forward to that doesn't need extra pledges to get the product to that level.
I want to have money for Kickstarters like Legendary Planet but due to missing hours at work, I had to withdraw support and I feel bad when I did so knowing it can impact other's value and the product overall.
Yes I would as long as the it was fantasy based and all the companies involved had good reputations.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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FWIW, a typical Paizo AP adventure generally runs 30-35,000 words.
@RAdeMorris: Sorry you had to drop out. We've still got about 2-1/2 weeks left, so if you get another paycheck and would like to hop on even at the $20 level we'd love to have you on board.
@SilvercatMoonbow: I agree it does kind of suck paying now and having to wait for a product. Look for companies with a good track record of producing on time, and even better look for companies that are able to start delivering on project either immediately at the end of the Kickstarter... like the aforementioned Legendary Planet Kickstarter.
As to Louis' question, it's one that has come up before, and it is a project that is fraught with complications, but the Mythic Mania project we ran with Dreamscarred, Kobold, and Rogue Genius certainly showed that you can have a very successful 3PP crossover project.
Just to reiterate and since Jason has chimed in - LG's short adventure plug-ins à la Under Frozen Stars are short, but don't *feel* that way - they have all the details, the fluff etc. required to make them great.
I'm just wary of short modules because they often skimp on the details.
Other than that, I really love the idea of proper 3pp-APs - as much as I love Paizo's campaigns, I tend to enjoy something different once in a while. ;) Speaking of which - thanks to the long running time of Legendary Planet, I could make preparations and will join that one. (Just as a nod to publishers - people with tight budgets sometimes really appreciate the financial maneuvering space long KS can provide!)
FWIW, a typical Paizo AP adventure generally runs 30-35,000 words.
Thanks for that info.
As to Louis' question, it's one that has come up before, and it is a project that is fraught with complications, but the Mythic Mania project we ran with Dreamscarred, Kobold, and Rogue Genius certainly showed that you can have a very successful 3PP crossover project.
As I told you that idea Jason (Secret 3PP meeting), I think it is possible with LOTS of planning and outlining.
Just to reiterate and since Jason has chimed in - LG's short adventure plug-ins à la Under Frozen Stars are short, but don't *feel* that way - they have all the details, the fluff etc. required to make them great.
I have always bee of the mind set that a typical adventure in a AP has 9 encounters (combat or social). I think it would work better and move faster if a "typical" adventure had 5 encounters; side treks had 2 encounters and you would mix ups typical adventures and side treks to make your Adventure Path.
I'm just wary of short modules because they often skimp on the details.
I think if you do side trek as "single issue" stories in comic book terms, you can build a a rich story AP with the combinations typical adventures (aka 4 part storylines in comics) and side treks.
Other than that, I really love the idea of proper 3pp-APs - as much as I love Paizo's campaigns, I tend to enjoy something different once in a while. ;)
Personally doing something like this is a gateway to get 3PP a lot of exposure that they might not get on there own. Better still find new and interesting ways for people to team up with to do future projects. There is strength in numbers.
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@Louis - short answer: Sure.
Long answer:
If you have:
- a compelling central theme and mature story that the assembled authors can work to
- a central developer who could keep those authors on that theme, and find or create that compelling central theme. I've not seen one yet.
- a desire to create an evocative and fulfilling storyline based on the strengths of the assembled authors
- an ability to draw those assembled authors not based on "big names" but ability to deliver high concept with powerful scenes and meaningful interactions. Again, not something I've seen a lot of. I'm sure Thilo could chime in here with some good authors - Kobold Press has presented a few, and the Zeitgeist Path seems to have some depth to it. Richard Develyn? I'm not familiar with his work, but Thilo seems to think highly of him.
Shoehorning "big names" into something they don't have creative strengths in leads to lacklustre or off target results.
- a graphic sensibility to match the theme. Your eye for anime/manga/comic style art is good Louis, but not everyone's cup of tea. Mostly works for me.
- a wholistic approach to the product - Players Guides, virtual maps (not needed by me), visual aids etc.
- Lastly, please keep the associated hype (and hyperbole) to a minimum. I want the product to stand on its own merit, not the names associated with it. I want the art to be sensible, and not be haphazardly handed to a dozen artists whose art styles don't complement each other or the product. I want the story to be meaningful and powerful, with all the related themes of love and loss, betrayal, redemption, ascension, devolution. Something to fight for, even should that just be Survival.
Achieve all those things, and I'll back it.
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And another I forgot, though this more obvious:
- Play to the strengths of the 3PP's you are joining with - presenting their crunch just as much as their designers themes and flavors. 3PP class support (NPCs, new archetypes, Iconics) and new rules.
Real simple question: Would you support a joint 3PP Adventure Path on Kickstarter? As for 3PP we are talking all the top people and companies? Thanks!
It worked for our Liber Influxus Communis book, when it comes to classes. I think a 3PP AP would work well in the same vein.
Didn't Emerald Spire from Paizo kind of work that way with freelancers?
In my opinion, Emerald Spire is the poster child of why it didn't work that way.
Big names.
Messy theme.
No power in the story.
It was a promotional dungeon crawl.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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I think big names aren't inherently a problem; the problem is more with big names for the sake of big names. If you've got people with a great track record of success in the industry AND who are excited about the theme and dialed into making that theme awesome, then it can be great.
The key is always to find talented people and to match them with products they're passionate about doing in areas that match their unique talents. That's how you make awesome products.
The story and theme have to come first, because you have to know what you're going to do before you start trying to find the right people to do it.
I would certainly consider it, but the details would have to be something I'd be interested in to begin with.
I'd probably back it, assuming it was from a reputable group of 3PP, which in my experience is definitely most of them.
There's only a couple that are overdue on kickstarter now that I would never give a red cent to again.
And another I forgot, though this more obvious:
- Play to the strengths of the 3PP's you are joining with - presenting their crunch just as much as their designers themes and flavors. 3PP class support (NPCs, new archetypes, Iconics) and new rules.
+1.
Incorporating 3pp material in it seems a given. But it should be self contained of course.
With the right bold or niche theme I'd be in.
Adaptability to Golarion is a big plus IMHO. (See WotW as prequel to the rise of house Cheliax).
I think big names aren't inherently a problem; the problem is more with big names for the sake of big names.
Agreed
If you've got people with a great track record of success in the industry AND who are excited about the theme and dialed into making that theme awesome, then it can be great.
That is really why projects are GREAT. The passion of the people involved. We have all done something that we were not really excited about and we "farmed" it in. But on the things we LOVE, well that has a completely different feel and expectation.
The key is always to find talented people and to match them with products they're passionate about doing in areas that match their unique talents. That's how you make awesome products.
For example, I can't wait to see Pathfinder Modern come out and what cool products Owen KC Stephens is going to come up with. Owen, like me, is a HUGE modern genre fan.
The story and theme have to come first, because you have to know what you're going to do before you start trying to find the right people to do it.
Bingo! I think the real issue is people might read the marketing material on a product and assume the know what a product or adventure might be. What make a good story? Well you have to actually read it before knowing, and there are many who don't do that. How many time have you heard, "Oh so and so did it? Well then is can't be any good." Prejudge much?
I'd probably back it, assuming it was from a reputable group of 3PP, which in my experience is definitely most of them.
That is always good to hear.
Adaptability to Golarion is a big plus IMHO. (See WotW as prequel to the rise of house Cheliax).
Just wondering but would you want different and unique themes from 3PP? To me I think Paizo covers the "generic fantasy" ground very well and I don't think it is a good thing to 3PP to do the same thing. 3PP need to fill the niches and push the boundaries of what is fantasy.
I would.
In fact, I was just asking a friend last night if there were any good 3PP APs out there, because I've never even looked for one.
OK let's expand this initial question a bit: What 3PP would need to be in a AP to get you interested in it (AP specific details still unknown)?
Kobold Press
legendary
The Rogue Genius folk(s)
Dream scarred Press
Frog God Games
Are ones that jump to mind. I'm sure I'm missing a good 15 or so I like from the list, but that's a good start.
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OK let's expand this initial question a bit: What 3PP would need to be in a AP to get you interested in it (AP specific details still unknown)?
For me, at least, that's totally backwards. I'm not going to back a project like that just based on the publishers.
My decision to back is going to be based on the AP specifics - the publisher is going to be the secondary consideration (there are some that will give me confidence it's going to work and others that will mean I rule out participating in).
OK let's expand this initial question a bit: What 3PP would need to be in a AP to get you interested in it (AP specific details still unknown)?For me, at least, that's totally backwards. I'm not going to back a project like that just based on the publishers.
My decision to back is going to be based on the AP specifics - the publisher is going to be the secondary consideration (there are some that will give me confidence it's going to work and others that will mean I rule out participating in).
+1 (and emphasis mine)
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I don't really care where content comes from if it looks interesting. A 3pp known to be reliable and consistent in their deliverables is obviously a major plus. Cool unlocking content that won't be made available later also usually tempts me to back a KS.
There's so much good 3pp out there right now I have no reservations about the approach.
For me, at least, that's totally backwards. I'm not going to back a project like that just based on the publishers.
People say that but I have noticed that there are a lot of small and first time 3PP who never get promoted or funded even with good ideas or concepts. Take a look here at winner and losers. It does make it "easier" if you have known people working on your KS. I mean if John Smith and Owen KC Stephens were doing KS adventure series, I think Owen might get more of a look from you if all other things are equal.
+1 (and emphasis mine)
I understand.
I don't really care where content comes from if it looks interesting. A 3pp known to be reliable and consistent in their deliverables is obviously a major plus. Cool unlocking content that won't be made available later also usually tempts me to back a KS.
Plus I think the more well established 3PP can get well known friends to work on project. I have hit up Owen and the guys at Dreamscarred MANY times for KS threshold goals.
There's so much good 3pp out there right now I have no reservations about the approach.
All 3PP like to hear that. :-)
Yes, I would likely support.
For me, at least, that's totally backwards. I'm not going to back a project like that just based on the publishers.People say that but I have noticed that there are a lot of small and first time 3PP who never get promoted or funded even with good ideas or concepts. Take a look here at winner and losers. It does make it "easier" if you have known people working on your KS. I mean if John Smith and Owen KC Stephens were doing KS adventure series, I think Owen might get more of a look from you if all other things are equal.
Yeah, I appreciate that - I'm not saying it's irrelevant, just that it's not the dominant factor (I'm also answering as a customer, not providing business advice as to whether steak or sizzle is more important). There is exactly one company I'd be willing to support before knowing the details of the project they were putting up and one more that I'd probably back. (The publisher is more likely to be a negative, to be frank - my list of publishers I'll no longer supprt is considerably longer than the list of publishers I'd consider "definites").
In my view, it's far more important for the product to suit the kind of gaming product I'm interested in than for it to be produced by someone whose name I recognise.
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There's lots of threads for AP ideas out there. Take one of the more niche ones and go...
For example a Tian Xia AP is a common request.
With Everyman Gamings race books (kitsune, samsaran) and maybe leadership/psych combat (soon available combined as Ultimate Charisma). Add Rite Publishing's heroes of the Jade Oath or yakuza/samurai clan rules (and talented writers). Maybe add a bit of the Kaidan talents/stuff. Add Dave Gross to the mix as well
Or go more into Vudra and add Dreamscarred Psionics or maybe Occult Adventures....
...Maybe a mythic AP ? (LG + ?)
A war AP? (LG ultimate battle rules)
So mythic war in Vudra?
Or a shadow planar AP starting in Nidal err the shadowy lands with Legendary Games Dark Druids, Boomers evil stuff and maybe the Jon Brazer shadow stuff.
Theme is essential, and niche is good. As you say plain fantasy is covered by Paizo. Though there's lots of not so plain stuff in Golarion too. So still IMHO making it somehow loosely adaptable would be a selling point for me. But the example WOtW was IMO not intentionally made adaptable and doesn't fit perfectly. But it's enough that I can be adapted. The more adaptable the bigger an audience you will have IMO.
As for companies/people:
Kobold press does not share their IP so much do they're probably out.
The people from LG have lots of experience with APs and with filing of the trademarks/pluggable Golarion stuff.
Frog God games have experience with super modules and Vaughn was involved in lots of APs.
Richard Develyn (Four Dollar Dungeons)
Ron Lundeen (Run Amok Games)
W hat AP would you like next? thread for reference...
W hat AP would you like next? thread for reference...
What we have planned if done correctly will be talked about for a while AND help not as well known 3PP gather more fans. Our main focus if to create a more unified connection between the 3PP and build something player have dreamed about playing in without even realizing it. But as always, first things first.
Color me interested...
I would.
In fact, I was just asking a friend last night if there were any good 3PP APs out there, because I've never even looked for one.
Bookrat check out the 3pp AP thread. Way of the Wicked & Zeitgeist were very well received. Road to Revolution is a but more obscure but reviews look very promising. War of the Burning Sky was one of the first 3pp APs and also has very good reviews. And there are more..
Bookrat check out the 3pp AP thread. Way of the Wicked & Zeitgeist were very well received. Road to Revolution is a but more obscure but reviews look very promising. War of the Burning Sky was one of the first 3pp APs and also has very good reviews. And there are more..I would.
In fact, I was just asking a friend last night if there were any good 3PP APs out there, because I've never even looked for one.
Ooo... Thank you. I already have some of the stand alone adventures. I've been thinking about going through a bunch of 3PP adventures and link them together to create a psuedo-AP.
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I might buy it after the fact, depends on a lot. After the Fire Mountain Games fiasco I am not as hot on the idea of supporting 3PP who I have not supported on Kickstarter before.
One thing I like of Frog God Games is that most of the writing is usually done when they do a Kickstarter. They do it to cover the cost of developing and printing the book, and not to handle the whole project.
I have been happy with what I have supported with Legendary Games and will likely support their current Kickstarter. And of course I have supported all the Kobold Games Kickstarters.
I have also supported AAW and am happy with what I have gotten from them.
I am not as interesting in supporting a kickstarter for companies I do not have as much Kickstarter history with.
I might buy it after the fact, depends on a lot. After the Fire Mountain Games fiasco I am not as hot on the idea of supporting 3PP who I have not supported on Kickstarter before.
I like you supported that kickstarter and I am still waiting. While this has been a fiasco and I understand things life can happen to really effect your kickstarter.
One thing I like of Frog God Games is that most of the writing is usually done when they do a Kickstarter. They do it to cover the cost of developing and printing the book, and not to handle the whole project.
Frog God has seemed to take a very Patron business model, which they proved the quality of their products back in the 3.5 days.
I have been happy with what I have supported with Legendary Games and will likely support their current Kickstarter. And of course I have supported all the Kobold Games Kickstarters.
Based on your statement before, Legendary Games falls under "I am not as hot on the idea of supporting 3PP who I have not supported on Kickstarter before." There are a lot of 3PP guys who do GREAT work but they are not one of the bigger names. People seem afraid to give "new" 3PP a chance because they are afraid they will get something bad.
I have also supported AAW and am happy with what I have gotten from them.
AAW really has the kickstarter model down pat because they do great work.
I am not as interesting in supporting a kickstarter for companies I do not have as much Kickstarter history with.
To me the way to mitigate that issue might be support it at a lower finical level. What do you feel about that?
Real simple question: Would you support a joint 3PP Adventure Path on Kickstarter? As for 3PP we are talking all the top people and companies? Thanks!
As I am primarily a PFS player, no.
Throwing a bunch of names in the pot can't be the sole draw.
Much of the bad rap for 3pp publishers, I think, comes from differing sense of balance. Each publisher has its own sense of what is "balanced"... when people really like a 3pp, it is largely because that publisher's sense of balance matches that of the reader.
Since each is different, an AP based on each 3pp providing one volume, for example, is a nearly sure-fire way to create a giant failure.
So it comes down to the plan more than the participants. A bad plan with great participants will fail; a great plan will help even poor participants fare better.
So what makes for a great plan? Well, as others (such as OceanshieldWolf) have mentioned, it includes playing to each participant's strengths. I also think having a single Developer responsible for ALL volumes of the AP is key.. to achieving consistency throughout.