Would you support a joint 3PP Adventure Path on Kickstarter?


Product Discussion

201 to 224 of 224 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | next > last >>

Isuru wrote:

Going by the World-Eater theme, I would put the emphasis on the Campaign Settings involved over the idea of 3PP collaborating or backing to supporting popular 3PPs. Third party publishers have collaborated before on Kickstarters, I don't expect the KS outcome to be different in this case, even if it's nominally a bigger project because it seems each 3PP only has a small part to play in the AP.

Really the draw of this project is the promise of an Planescape or Spelljammer inspired epic romp through some of the more recognizable 3PP settings that are Pathfinder Compatible. Deliver on that concept and the project can tap into the crossover potential.

The issue that I noticed that you have assumed a few things about this KS are not correct due a few assumption on your part.

Quote:
Conversely, what of 3PP who aren't known for a particular setting or even a barebones implied setting offered in adventures, there are those who focus more on offering player options and monsters over settings and adventures. Their involvement in this is not as strong a draw. While they can still contribute, they wouldn't have a "star" milieu to present for the AP (or put it another way, a World to place before the Eater).

I think there are various way that 3PP without campaign setting can contribute to this AP, with monsters being one of the easiest ways to go about that.

Quote:
If the non-setting'ed 3PP were to develop a setting specifically for this AP, then that doesn't hold the same draw as a 3PP with an established setting, unless the 3PP is already well established and has an existing strong demand from their fanbase to produce a setting along their style and strength.

We never said that we were going to ask them to do that. We want the 3PP to support this KS AP by doing what they do best.

Quote:
With the existing settings, while it is nice for the PCs to visit them as a sort of sight-seeing day tour, there isn't a true cross-over unless elements start to bleed over between worlds. Traditionally in the comics inspiring this World-Eater concept, when worlds cross-over, it's a big mashup between heroes and villains. The PCs stand in for the super heroes (but it would still be nice to see some other familiar faces from the settings interact across the veil of worlds). You would need villains and monsters to cross over. The latter is easily done because most monsters are under a shared license. However, the bigger draw is villains who cross-over and then setting IP is involved. That may be more difficult to work out, both from the logistical perspective and from a writing perspective.

We have an idea for that covered but are not planning to reveal what that is yet.

Quote:
What I'm saying is, this is beyond the scope of Infinite Crisis (IP all controlled by one company). This is more like Amalgam Comics or a true cross-over between different companies (aka Marvel & DC). As fans, it is more gratifying to see Dr. Doom invade Thermyscira or Lex Luthor trying to obtain vibranium from Wakanda*, compared to if both companies decided to invent the "Megamaster" (insert random generic ultra villain) who is trying to invade both settings and each world goes about dealing with this new threat entirely self-contained with no input other than a handful of outworlders helping out.

You are making a few assumption on how we are going to handle this AP. But the problem is that you are only looking at this from the "Crisis on Infinite Earths" perspective. You have completely over looked the "Ultimate Galactus Story" perspective and how that might interact with the "Crisis on Infinite Earths" material.

Quote:
*Meanwhile the Guardians of the Galaxy are delayed by Angela... wait...

:-)

Quote:
Also, even if villains cross-over, the villains of a setting may have a very different style or even magic/technology level compared to the world they arrive in. That will have to be ironed out. Their motivation would also have to be determined. If Midgard's Master of Demon Mountain arrives on NeoExodus, his goal is probably to get back to Midgard as his primary motivation is the proliferation of a setting specific bloodline in Midgard (and if NeoExodus is an entirely different world void of this bloodline, what use is it to him) and his powerbase is strongly tied to Demon Mountain. There are workarounds of course, but things to consider. On the other hand, using Baba Yaga is free, but I wouldn't call Baba Yaga a Midgard villain. It would be like if DC suddenly used Thor, but not the Marvel Thor. That's cheating.

We have taken care of that in a very elegant and simple way to handle it.

Quote:
As for the organization of the Alpha, Delta, Omega adventures with the 3PP settings as side-treks, this seems to push the 3PP settings out into the fringes.

Actually no. While important tot he story, they are not mandatory, but when they are played they add to the overall story of the AP.

Quote:
What worlds will be the focus of the Alpha/Delta/Omega adventure?

Everyone will start off on a generic campaign setting OR their own home campaign where this AP could be plugged.

Quote:
If some of them are new worlds created for this AP, then their fate and/or destruction will hold less impact.

Maybe...

Quote:
If they are established settings, some players might not like them and what if they want to skip the Delta adventure if it's set in Midgard, but the group things Midgard is too plain vanilla for their tastes. Or maybe they hate kobolds and gearforged and Midgard is a cardinal sin.

Maybe..

Quote:
What if NeoExodus is the Delta and is scripted to be consumed by the World-Eater, but the group are NeoExodus fans, they just failed in saving the setting they liked the most. Sure they might save all the others, but they've let their homeworld be destroyed.

Maybe...

Quote:
Same applies for the Alpha and Omega. What if the group wants to start from a particular setting, how does the Alpha figure into it. Will there be a prequel adventure for each setting involved, etc.

I am getting the feeling that you want me to tell you EVERYTHING we are doing so you can approve or disapprove what actions we have planned. The best thing I can tell you is to want and see what we release for the AP and make your comments based on that instead of thinking what our plans are and commenting on these. Before we announced that we were planning this AP we talked it over for months about what we thought were possible thing and what we couldn't do.

Quote:
Perhaps you've all these logistical issues figured out. Then that's great. If not, then please use the time to first determine how much of each setting will be intermixing into this formula. I feel the success of this project lies in striking the right balance between involving the settings. Too little and it becomes a cross-over in name only; too much and some might gloss over chapters. Create too much new stuff for the main adventures and we're back to cross-over in name only.

We wouldn't even announced that we were doing something like this without the logistical issues covered and talked about.

Quote:
Not to sound negative. I really would like to see this get off the ground, but at the same time, hope it arrives in a format capable of addressing some of the unknowns mentioned above.

Like I said, we have been working on this a while behind the scenes for a while. Thanks for the interest on this AP.


@Isuru - well done for taking the time to air your concerns and point out possible pitfalls.


LMPjr007 wrote:
The issue that I noticed that you have assumed a few things about this KS are not correct due a few assumption on your part.

Dearth of information does tend to encourage assumptions based on what is given, else there is no basis for discussion or thought. Why bother if you're just looking for Yes-men. Besides someone has to play the part of the mouthy naysayers to make you look more prepared than you willing to let on. Having assumption-driven randoms gives you scenery to chew.

(I expect payment in a free complementary digital copy in my email box shortly. ;)

LMPjr007 wrote:
::paraphrase:: All the nods and "we've got that covered."

Good, good.

LMPjr007 wrote:
I am getting the feeling that you want me to tell you EVERYTHING we are doing so you can approve or disapprove what actions we have planned. The best thing I can tell you is to want and see what we release for the AP and make your comments based on that instead of thinking what our plans are and commenting on these. Before we announced that we were planning this AP we talked it over for months about what we thought were possible thing and what we couldn't do.

I'm not looking to take it upon myself to gatekeep your project, nor would I have the right (no one does) or acumen (there are those who do have the experience running multiple major Pathfinder Kickstarters).

The thread topic, which you started, asked if posters on these forums will back a kickstarter with the limited information you deemed us worthy of reading. I gave an honest answer of what I'm looking for and commented in good faith on what little you offered. Take it how you will.

You asked what 3PP we want to see and then inquired why some of us were inclined or disinclined to see certain companies involved. Now you say you're far along and have all the stuff worked out in the background. Which is it? Why bother asking if you've got this whole shebang in the bag? Maybe put a disclaimer if you actually don't want any feedback.

Didn't realize that original topic had concluded or grew irrelevant. Update the thread title and first post in that case.

LMPjr007 wrote:
We wouldn't even announced that we were doing something like this without the logistical issues covered and talked about.

Never doubted you put tons of prior legwork into piecing together this project, but generally it seems other established 3PP present their KS plans at a much more developed stage. Or at least are willing to offer a few more solid details, enough to build interest on.

You come on here asking us if we would back Project X. We ask if it includes Y and Z. You give us a maybe, stay tuned. Then expect us to jump up and down in excitement at some generic reveal about the expected standard backer rewards. Sorry, I'll save my anticipation for when you're actually ready to present your project.

Meanwhile, other 3PP (large and small) come on here with a clearly defined concept and framework (theme, authors, contents, sample artwork, etc). My proverbial wallet gets leather strain from the speed I pulled money to throw at the screen (have to if I want to grab a limited tier).

Up to you to decide which you want to be.


Isuru wrote:

Dearth of information does tend to encourage assumptions based on what is given, else there is no basis for discussion or thought. Why bother if you're just looking for Yes-men. Besides someone has to play the part of the mouthy naysayers to make you look more prepared than you willing to let on. Having assumption-driven randoms gives you scenery to chew.

(I expect payment in a free complementary digital copy in my email box shortly. ;)

You have to remember we are not starting this KS until February 2016. That is six months from now. If we tell you ALL our plans now, what are we going to do for the next 6 months? Slow and steady is what we are doing.

Oh, by they way, your gift will be coming in November. :-)

Isuru wrote:
Never doubted you put tons of prior legwork into piecing together this project, but generally it seems other established 3PP present their KS plans at a much more developed stage. Or at least are willing to offer a few more solid details, enough to build interest on.

That is true, there are a LOT of KS who give you tons of pre-release stuff, promise you all kinds of things and their KS project is 1 year late, 2 years late or never come out. I don't want to do that. So I focus on slow and steady.

Isuru wrote:
You come on here asking us if we would back Project X. We ask if it includes Y and Z. You give us a maybe, stay tuned. Then expect us to jump up and down in excitement at some generic reveal about the expected standard backer rewards. Sorry, I'll save my anticipation for when you're actually ready to present your project.

I don't want you to jump up and down. I want you to stay tuned. Slow and steady...

Isuru wrote:
Meanwhile, other 3PP (large and small) come on here with a clearly defined concept and framework (theme, authors, contents, sample artwork, etc). My proverbial wallet gets leather strain from the speed I pulled money to throw at the screen (have to if I want to grab a limited tier).

And some of those miss their delivery dates by two or more years. Even with all the craziness going on in my personal life when I was working on Obsidian Apocalypse, we still released the product. Slow and steady...

Isuru wrote:
Up to you to decide which you want to be.

Slow and steady and delivering the product on that due date we said we would. To me THAT is what is most important. Making sure people got what they paid for is the end all and be all with me. I hope you feel the same way, because there are many KS project that don't feel that way.


LMPjr007 wrote:
You have to remember we are not starting this KS until February 2016. That is six months from now. If we tell you ALL our plans now, what are we going to do for the next 6 months? Slow and steady is what we are doing.

You've floated the idea of heading a cross-3PP AP for a long time. This thread does not really give an update on that.

Someone wake me when the first real announcement is made.

Had more written here but then it felt like threadcrapping on you. That's not my intent and isn't a nice thing to do.

I'll leave it off at this: You left your marketing showing.
That's unfortunate. I want to believe, I liked the illusion.

LMPjr007 wrote:

That is true, there are a LOT of KS who give you tons of pre-release stuff, promise you all kinds of things and their KS project is 1 year late, 2 years late or never come out. I don't want to do that. So I focus on slow and steady.

And some of those miss their delivery dates by two or more years. Even with all the craziness going on in my personal life when I was working on Obsidian Apocalypse, we still released the product. Slow and steady...

Slow and steady and delivering the product on that due date we said we would. To me THAT is what is most important. Making sure people got what they paid for is the end all and be all with me. I hope you feel the same way, because there are many KS project that don't feel that way.

This is also not about the faults and delays of other Kickstarter projects. Even as a KS junkie I've had the fortune of backing mostly projects that deliver within a reasonable time from their projections. In fact, the majority of PFRPG projects I've backed, from various companies, are relatively exemplary in their project management and scheduling. It's the non-PF RPG projects I've had the most problems with.

Promising stuff early on is not indicative of a failure to deliver. Plenty of the big Pathfinder KS promise a lot of stuff on their Kickstarters and have delivered in a relatively timely manner. Conversely, anyone could promise something as simple as a thank-you email and suddenly find themselves in a situation where they are extremely delayed.

There isn't a direct correlation between promises of stuff and delays. There are many other factors contributing to delays. Some of the biggest PF projects encountered printer delays. There is no guarantee even if you offer a modest booklet that you wouldn't encounter similar printing delays, those are outside of your direct control.

*Using "you" as in non-specific you.


It would be very interesting to see...points of contention

1) what is the theme?

pretty self-explanatory

2) length of adventure(s)

pretty self-explanatory

3) fulfillment of product(s)

tied into the next point.. depending on outlay of $$$, and having seen some projects on kickstarter fail in fulfillment.. its a concern regardless of who's who

4) cost for each level and to get copies

reasonable pricing for each tier.. pdf's, physical copies, bonus things.


I am wondering, what type of rewards would people be interested in receiving? I am talking beyond the normal KS item. Thanks!


5 people marked this as a favorite.

Just to keep everyone in the loop we have signed up Fat Dragon Games, First Ones Entertainment, Lost Spheres Publishing and Purple Duck Games to work with us on this. We hope to have more names coming soon. As always thanks for your interest and support.


Best of luck with the project,Louis!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Brother Fen wrote:
Best of luck with the project,Louis!

Thanks!

In other GREAT news, we are going to add some more new names to this list of 3PP helping with this kickstarter if everything can come together. So expect to hear something about this very soon.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
LMPjr007 wrote:
LazarX wrote:
ladydragona wrote:
Now your talking reward level wise. You have to realize that the RPG industry has changed since the eighties and ninties. Back then the average customers was a cash poor teenager/collage student spending loose change on a hobby. But we grew up got good jobs and can afford to spend our hard earned cash on hardcover books. I hate pdf's they are hard to read and annoying give me a beautiful hardcover book anyday. But despite all that me personally I don't need leather covers etc. although many do want them and will pay handsomely for them.
Despite that, the RGP industry in total remains a small one... with an overall smaller pie than it used to be. The entire market last year for every company combined, WOTC, Paizo, Steve Jackson Games, every other company thrown in was about 15 million dollars. That was gross take before expenses, such as operations, printing, promotions, publicity, maintaining things like this website, et. al.
This seems like fuzzy math to me. Just the Kickstarter alone of Reaper's Bones II last year raised over 3 million dollars, so I might check your math.

Here's a quote from gamebeat. url: http://venturebeat.com/2014/08/18/north-american-hobby-game-market-hits-an- estimated-700m/

Note that this is a quote for North American sales only. In short the TOTAL roleplaying game market accounts for five bucks out of every 700 dollars spent in 2013.

All kinds of games are taking off, including the old-fashioned kind that are based on cardboard, not pixels.

Market researcher ICv2 said today that the hobby game market in North America hit $700 million at retail in 2013 — thanks in part to board games that have mobile app counterparts.

The company estimated that collectible games were the largest segment at $450 million. Miniatures were second at $125 million. Board games were third at $75 million, and card and dice games were fourth at $35 million. Role-playing games were $5 million. Such “hobby games” are defined as those produced for gamers and sold most often in the online hobby channels or game and card specialty stores.

And if you're going to go to Kickstarter for support of your argument, keep in mind that 40 percent of Kickstarter's funded projects do not deliver. More importantly that figure was for minature purchases used mostly in wargames and does not factor into the budgets for roleplaying games themselves.

Also note that that 5 million was the North American total for role-playing games, counting Paizo, WOTC, and everyone else that was still in buisness at the end of 2013.


LazarX wrote:

Here's a quote from gamebeat. url: http://venturebeat.com/2014/08/18/north-american-hobby-game-market-hits-an- estimated-700m/

Note that this is a quote for North American sales only. In short the TOTAL roleplaying game market accounts for five bucks out of every 700 dollars spent in 2013.

All kinds of games are taking off, including the old-fashioned kind that are based on cardboard, not pixels.

Market researcher ICv2 said today that the hobby game market in North America hit $700 million at retail in 2013 — thanks in part to board games that have mobile app counterparts.

The company estimated that collectible games were the largest segment at $450 million. Miniatures were second at $125 million. Board games were third at $75 million, and card and dice games were fourth at $35 million. Role-playing games were $5 million. Such “hobby games” are defined as those produced for gamers and sold most often in the online hobby channels or game and card specialty stores.

And if you're going to go to Kickstarter for support of your argument, keep in mind that 40 percent of Kickstarter's funded projects do not deliver. More importantly that figure was for minature purchases used mostly in wargames and does not factor into the budgets for roleplaying games themselves.

Also note that that 5 million was the North American total for role-playing games, counting Paizo, WOTC, and everyone else that was still in buisness at the end of 2013.

OK simply put if the typical RPG company pays $50,000 in salary per person and there are 100 RPG professionals then the $5 million is sales would cover their salary. But what about rent for their building? Cost of getting product printed? Health insurance? Benefits? Lets say my number of $50K is too high, let go down to $25K per employee, that raise the number of RPG Professionals to 200 people and EVERYONE could make more money managing a McDonald's. Like I said before, I think there is fuzzy math going on there.


I would support a joint 3PP Adventure Path in a heartbeat. Especially if it tied in classes such as Dreamscarred Press psionics/Rogue Genius's Games godlings, etc. I am a big user of third party and regular Paizo material, and something like this has the potential to open up people's minds more to the great production that I see out of every third party product I have purchased. As for balance, that's relative to how you play. You can use the core Paizo rulebook to make insanely powerful characters, let alone any of the extra books they printed.

For example, you could have spellcasting classes from one 3PP use spells from the 101 series by Rite Publishing. Battles in the air via airships by another 3PP and dragonriders by Rogue Genius games. The possibilities are endless, really. Fantasy is defined by the way you build the world, and what limits you decide to set in it. I've seen too many people discard what would be an immensely fun idea because it violated their "idea" of fantasy, when it would be more fun to see how it could integrate into their world. If you find that you can't do it, then don't use it or set it aside for another time.

As for a World Eater, this sounds like the fantasy version of Galactus. Fighting that would be fun, especially if you had to take a spacefaring ship down the throat of the World Eater and fight its manifested control avatar, and then fly out before it detonates....


LazarX wrote:
And if you're going to go to Kickstarter for support of your argument, keep in mind that 40 percent of Kickstarter's funded projects do not deliver.

Wow, you are really good at pulling BS statistics out of your rear end.

Of course, what constitutes a KS 'delivering' is different for different kinds of projects, so there is no way even for Kickstarter to track data on how often funded projects 'deliver'. Even if they were able to track it, they would have no reason to release that data to you. Try again;)

Honestly, though, I am mildly amused watching you, someone with no inside-knowledge of the RPG industry, try to argue with Louis Porter Jr, someone who owns his own game company.


stormcrow27 wrote:
As for a World Eater, this sounds like the fantasy version of Galactus. Fighting that would be fun, especially if you had to take a spacefaring ship down the throat of the World Eater and fight its manifested control avatar, and then fly out before it detonates....

Please stop looking over my shoulder at my computer screen. :-)

137ben wrote:
LazarX wrote:
And if you're going to go to Kickstarter for support of your argument, keep in mind that 40 percent of Kickstarter's funded projects do not deliver.

Wow, you are really good at pulling BS statistics out of your rear end.

Of course, what constitutes a KS 'delivering' is different for different kinds of projects, so there is no way even for Kickstarter to track data on how often funded projects 'deliver'. Even if they were able to track it, they would have no reason to release that data to you. Try again;)

Honestly, though, I am mildly amused watching you, someone with no inside-knowledge of the RPG industry, try to argue with Louis Porter Jr, someone who owns his own game company.

137ben there is no need to be nasty. LazarX and I having a difference of opinion and that is OK.


LMPjr007 wrote:
Just to keep everyone in the loop we have signed up Fat Dragon Games, First Ones Entertainment, Lost Spheres Publishing and Purple Duck Games to work with us on this. We hope to have more names coming soon. As always thanks for your interest and support.

This is a meaty, substantive update!

It's just a few well-placed words, but it covers one of the pillars of this cross-world adventure concept: confirmed 3PP signed on. Especially ones with established settings and/or steady reliable companies who have supported PF for years.

More like this, please. Keep up the good progress, Mr. Porter.

LMPjr007 wrote:
Brother Fen wrote:
Best of luck with the project,Louis!

Thanks!

In other GREAT news, we are going to add some more new names to this list of 3PP helping with this kickstarter if everything can come together. So expect to hear something about this very soon.

Now this update has something solid to build on and real anticipation can build from it. Good work. Looking forward to the next update and more companies announced.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
137ben wrote:
LazarX wrote:
And if you're going to go to Kickstarter for support of your argument, keep in mind that 40 percent of Kickstarter's funded projects do not deliver.

Wow, you are really good at pulling BS statistics out of your rear end.

Of course, what constitutes a KS 'delivering' is different for different kinds of projects, so there is no way even for Kickstarter to track data on how often funded projects 'deliver'. Even if they were able to track it, they would have no reason to release that data to you. Try again;)

Honestly, though, I am mildly amused watching you, someone with no inside-knowledge of the RPG industry, try to argue with Louis Porter Jr, someone who owns his own game company.

And that's supposed to mean what? Outside of the few big companies, most third party companies are at most one or two people. And the gaming Boot Hill is full of the graves of gaming companies who made seriously wrong guesses or fatal moves. TSR, the biggest of them all at one time, came this close to being one of them.


Now adding to this list of 3PP joining it with this upcoming kickstarter: Sasquatch Game Studio! That is right the creators of Thule are not joining the upcoming Crisis of the World Eater. It can only get better from here!


Louis, could you please proof your posts? It is like you are a human auto-incorrect. Read the above post.

So "...not joining" should be "...now joining"?


Yea, that's what I thought...
then I thought it might be intentional. The creators of Thule are not being gobbled up by the World Eater, because they will be involved writing it?

"It's a typo" is probably a simpler explanation.


137ben wrote:

Yea, that's what I thought...

then I thought it might be intentional. The creators of Thule are not being gobbled up by the World Eater, because they will be involved writing it?

"It's a typo" is probably a simpler explanation.

I am going to go with typo. But hey, you never know...


And now we have six with Wayward Rogues Publishing, Who will be next?


So let's see...
I have a handful of PDG supplements. I've seen several Lost Spheres Publishing supplements that I think I want, but I have yet to get around to buying any of them. The only think I really know about Sasquatch Game Studio is that they partnered with WotC for the Temple of Elemental Evil. And of course I know LPJ games for Obsidian Apocalypse.
Otherwise, I know almost nothing about the companies who are on this project so far.
As usual, though, I'm more interested in seeing what is offered than big names.


137ben wrote:

So let's see...

I have a handful of PDG supplements. I've seen several Lost Spheres Publishing supplements that I think I want, but I have yet to get around to buying any of them. The only think I really know about Sasquatch Game Studio is that they partnered with WotC for the Temple of Elemental Evil. And of course I know LPJ games for Obsidian Apocalypse.
Otherwise, I know almost nothing about the companies who are on this project so far.
As usual, though, I'm more interested in seeing what is offered than big names.

Well if you want a little more info from the horse's mouth, I would check out the lastest Transparency Agenda vlog series. Hope this helps.

201 to 224 of 224 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Third-Party Pathfinder RPG Products / Product Discussion / Would you support a joint 3PP Adventure Path on Kickstarter? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Product Discussion