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After he's dead, his corpse chops the arm off the first guy who tries to touch the body.
This would actually be really awesome: A fully mundane "death throws" ability that activates like an AoO. The villain strikes you down, then steps over you to attack one of your comrades—and your corpse bites his leg and won't let go.
Hmmm. So if I read this right, you're moving, full-attacking, and getting way more combat maneuvers than vanilla Pathfinder would allow (and probably doing way more damage than vanilla Pathfinder as well.) <scribbles notes>
I really want "Awesome Blow"-style abilities that can be used in place of attacks.
Well, I'll take a crack. In hindsight, though, I feel like I always kinda miss the point of these challenges and go way too long in the wrong direction. But here's what I have.
* A party of high level (17th level) martials is taking on a high-level caster (18th level caster, plus enough minions to make it a CR 20 encounter).
* The encounter is taking place in the caster's stronghold. Think, if you like, of Conan encountering the evil wizard at the top of his tower. This gives the caster the home field advantage plus all the prep time in the world.
* The party consists of a fighter, a rogue, gunslinger or a skirmisher ranger, and a brawler. No spells among them. More importantly, no magical items duplicating spells either. This is about martials themselves being cool, not martials pretending to be casters.
* The caster is RAW legal; no nerfing him. Simulacra of wish-granting outsiders, bags of marbles with symbols on them, teleporting to private demiplanes, all legitimate.
* The party is not allowed to do anything "wuxia," "weeaboo," "anime," or similar derogatory words.
A few days before the attack, Rogue and Gunslinger sneak into the fortress. Rogue's good enough at trap disabling that he can essentially rig a trap—even a magic trap, of course— to ignore him without people even realizing that's what's going on: He just bangs on a key panel as he walks by, or delays the crucial mechanism with a well-placed ice cube, or "happens" to dance over the trigger entirely.
Rogue makes it in and assassinates one of the wizard's top ghast clerics. Being well-trained in the Heal skill, he's easily able to inoculate himself against the stench, and he concocts a disguise that will mimic all major aspects of a ghast. Rogue installs Gunslinger in in place of a less important ghast using the same makeover prowess.
Rogue can hide his own existence, protecting him from divination spells and certain undead's lifesense, but he can't easily do the same for Gunslinger. Instead, he has Gunslinger installed at the gate amid a mob of undead, trusting the sheer mass to protect Gunslinger from discovery. Gunslinger is none-too-happy about this, but Rogue has used his personal skills to convince the ghasts that Gunslinger is not only a fellow undead, but a trifle simple, and so they don't bother him.
Meanwhile, Brawler and Fighter have been studying the perimeter. Fighter understands the engineering of the castle defenses, and enlists Brawler's help in concocting a plan to open the gates. All four have plenty of contacts (though none moreso than Rogue) and Gunslinger has left them the supplies to form a trap.
Unfortunately, the day before the attack, things go wrong. Rogue has easily resisted all lie discernment, of course, but he can't protect himself from negative energy, and he ends up shaking hands with the wight wrong person. Rogue is grabbed, but manages to break free and make it into the hall. From there, he activates numerous traps at once, allowing himself to slip by while Evil Wizard and her cronies deal with swinging axes and the sort, and runs into the courtyard with Gunslinger.
Gunslinger, realizing they've been made, whips out his gun and opens fire, killing numerous ghasts in only a few shots thanks to his powerful ammunition.
Over the hill, Fighter and Brawler hear all this and decide to go into action. Brawler rams through a section of the wall and makes it inside. Using instructions from the fighter, she is able to smash her way in, barreling down anything and any thing that gets in her way (including, but not limited to, undead, force walls, normal walls, and traps) to destroy some key bits of machinery with other key bits of machinery. This causes a large portion of the castle to be destroyed. Fortunately, Brawler has learned to to convert a large amount of lethal damage to nonlethal, and nonlethal damage doesn't tend to slow her down much at all at this point.
Fighter, meanwhile, is leading a small troop of local hunters, muggers and guards up to help. They begin shooting at the monsters in the castle. This is in fact a trick—the undead that come out to pursue the bowmen quickly find themselves in a narrow canyon facing down townsfolk armed with siege weaponry. And then the powder barrels go off. Fighter herself is far away in the castle by now.
Evil Wizard emerges. She's picked herself up by now and buffed herself pretty heavily, but in the meantime the vast majority of her servants have been blown up or mowed down. Worse, Rogue is nowhere to be seen. She flies above them, quicken-casts a darkness[i] spell (she's already ensured her own vision) and casts a [i]symbol of insanity spell on Gunslinger, Brawler and Fighter.
Fighter, thanks to her discipline and years of training, is practically immune to most petty magic. Brawler is just thickheaded enough to resist. Unfortunately, Gunslinger starts hitting himself in the head with his pistol.
Brawler tackles Gunslinger before he does any real damage and smacks him in the head, giving him another chance to resist. This time, he does. Fighter picks up a ballista with incredible strength, works out its function, and fires, puncturing and shattering one of Evil Wizard's AC-boosting spells.
Rogue dives down from above and stabs Evil Wizard, but hits a mirror image. He grabs back onto the wall and swings back out of sight, like that cat that trips and then tries to pretend it did it on purpose all along. He ignores the symbol, instinctively sensing the "trap" and barely even acknowledging its presence.
Evil Wizard casts a paralysis. Again, Fighter withstands it. Gunslinger, meanwhile, does get paralysed, but only from the elbows up—it's almost impossible to immobilize his superfast wrists as he shoots Evil Wizard in the hand—but another mirror image. Frustrated, he settles for piercing two other images with incredible speed.
Rogue leaps out, swings off of Evil Wizard's foot—throwing her off-balance—and lands on the ground thirty feet below without breaking a little toe. He rushes over and applies pressure to certain points of Brawler, using his healing expertise to eliminate the paralysis.
Brawler, thoroughly sick of all this, grabs Rogue's trusty ten-foot pole and pole vaults to tackle Evil Wizard (Brawler is, of course, a master at improvisation and acrobatics, and also wizard wrasslin'). Evil Wizard starts to teleport away, but Fighter has readied a shot and causes her to lose her concentration. Brawler drags Evil Wizard to the ground.
Evil Wizard, thoroughly sick of all this, casts time stop, dimension doors clear, and gates in a tremendously powerful one-headed demon. She notices that Rogue is missing again (yes, I am stealing the "rogue ignores Time Stop" concept—see this as my casting a vote for the idea). She quickencasts mirror image again, has the demon heal her some, and attempts a divination spell for the rogue—nope.
Time Stop ends. Brawler, no longer grappling, targets the demon, ramming it through the gateway and stunning it. She grabs the remains of the portcullis and, mustering all her strength, brings the points down on the creature's neck. It's not dead. But it is stuck.
Fighter cleaves, destroying the mirrors again, and rogue leaps out of the shadows and starts stabbing, dealing a vast amount of damage and stealing one of Evil Wizard's magic items (we'll say a Headband of Mental Superiority). Gunslinger takes aim, also getting thoroughly sick of all this (he's still partially paralyzed), and shoots Evil Wizard in the wrist—sabotaging her spellcasting.
Evil Wizard quickencasts fear, terrorizing Rogue (Fighter remains unaffected), rises into the air, and casts a prismatic sphere around herself.
Although Rogue is too weak-willed to outright resist (he has no major bonuses against fear effects) he is able to "cheat" around the mind control by compartmentalizing it—essentially splitting his mental processes in half. He turns and runs into the castle, fully (or half-) aware that this will lead to a dead end.
Gunslinger takes aim and fires a shot, shattering the sphere. Brawler runs up and rams the side of the shaky castle (not realizing Rogue has gone inside), causing the damaged building to tremble. Realizing what Brawler is attempting, Fighter utilizes her understanding of engineering once more to direct a collapse onto Evil Wizard. Evil Wizard is knocked to the ground by a stone.
Evil Wizard attempts to dimension door out, but her injured hand breaks her concentration. She resorts to a meteor swarm. Gunslinger is grievously injured, Brawler raises a door to shield herself, and Fighter is reasonably battered but still doing okay. Demon gets free.
Rogue continues fleeing into an area he knows has an antimagic field up. Once inside (and free of fear), he drinks a "poison" concocted that mitigates the flight instinct.
Brawler rushes the demon, taking grievous hits on the way, and grabs it by the horns. She leaps on top and starts driving it to run into things. The supports in the gateway start to tremble.
Realizing that Gunslinger can't take many more hits like that, Fighter wraps her spiked chain around Evil Wizard's leg and runs, dragging the caster along to gain some distance.
Evil Wizard, thoroughly depleted on major spells, casts grasping hand and tries to shove Fighter away. Fighter swings the wizard around by the chain like The Hulk with Loki. Whee!
Rogue runs out just as Gunslinger finally breaks free of the hold person. Gunslinger and Rogue collaborate, Gunslinger deploying his keen knowledge of explosives to aid Rogue in a tricky maneuver.
Brawler continues smashing, despite taking ridiculous amounts of damage. At this point, she rightly should be dead, and probably is. The gate starts to collapse.
Evil Wizard uses a grasping hand to try again to knock Fighter away, this time successfully.
As the gate comes down, killing the demon and Brawler, Rogue leaps out of the shadows nearby. He brandishes a sheet of stone. It's the Symbol of Insanity, repurposed as a deadly weapon. Evil Wizard makes her save, but a readied shot from Gunslinger startles her and forces her to reroll. She flubs it.
As she collapses, gibbering, Fighter brings down her greatsword, severing the wizard's head from her shoulders.
Afterward, a wake is held in the town tavern in memory of the dear departed brawler. A brawl breaks out after two minutes. It's what she would have wanted.
Regardless of whether my effort was in the spirit of things, I really love this whole thread premise. Prompts are fun!
I support the premise of this thread. I look forward to a presentation of your notes Orfamay...
I found the item that was used.
Create: Craft (alchemy) DC 30
Blightburn: The mineral blightburn is a green-glowing crystal and burns anyone who touches it, dealing 2d6 points of fire damage per round of contact, and its radiation causes blightburn sickness.
The substance also limits teleportation. Anyone casting a teleportation spell in or teleporting to a cavern with blightburn in its walls must succeed at a DC 30 caster level check.
I just noticed this thing is hauled around in a 2 foot cubed box meaning it is likely going to need to hands to be handled so someone is going to have to pull it out of a bag of holding or handy haversack(assuming it can fit in), and then open it.
Onset 1/day; Frequency 1/day
Effect 1d6 Con damage and 1d6 Cha damage; contact is automatic when a creature comes within a 60-foot radius, and can be blocked only by lead sheeting, 1 foot of stone, or a force effect; Cure 2 consecutive saves
So this caster has 20 CR of actual minions, but he also has gate, and there are magic items and feats that can boost you caster level by at least 3, but I think have seen builds with casters levels more than have 5 above what the caster is. I will go with 3. That means he can pull in a 20 HD monster, and just control it. Otherwise he has to negotiate with it. I doubt he will go that route unless he called it earlier, and has a prearranged plan set up. IIRC Pit Fiends are CR 20 monsters and have 20 HD. They have "trap the soul as an SLA". By the 4th round of them spamming it someone is likely to no longer be in the fight.
Those +3 caster levels also means that if he has to escape he can do so with his 2nd attempt, but that would also count as overcoming the encounter, even if the caster did not die. As for his minions he could have monsters are just have more casters, such as summoners, or clerics.
I skipped a few post so if he is restricted to monsters I guess they should be thematically chosen.
I just noticed the wizard is level 18 so those HD go up to 21 for any gated creature. I think the pit fiend is still going to be chosen, and there may be more than one of them coming in.
Also this thread is sorta pointless. We know how it ends. You can't put limits on one group, and basically no limits on the other, and not know the outcome. If we are playing basketball, and you have to follow the rules, and I can can do anything I want, to include calling in Lebron James and a young Micheal Jordan to play for me, I am winning the game.
I really don't know if those putting very hard limits on martials are the ones saying they can't have nice things. I think they are happy with how the game is. For my own games it would mess with my suspension of belief to have them level a mountain, but they can do a lot more than what is acceptable by the laws of physics. That is why I liked ToB.
I am loving how awesome the Rogue has been in all three writeups. The awesomeness really seems to come down to... Letting skills do cool things.
-Matt
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I really need to point this out for the sake of everyone.
WEALTH BY LEVEL IS NOT A RULE IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. THEY ARE GUIDELINES THAT ARE DESIGNED TO PROVIDE PLAYERS WITH ENOUGH FUNDS TO BUY THE GEAR THEY NEED TO MAKE THE SYSTEM MATH WORK. IN NO WAY ARE THEY BOUND TO OBEY IT AND KEEP THEIR POSESSED WEALTH WITHING APPROPRIATE WBL LEVEL. THAT IS ON THE GM, ON THE GM ONLY IF THEY WANT TO, AND ON THE GM ALONE.
People really need to stop suggesting silly things like "oh we will just count the wizards free spells against their wbl to reduce the stuff they have". THAT DOES NOT WORK. The GM effectively gives the party however much wealth the GM wants, and the players collectively do what the hell they want with it. The GM can try to follow the WBL guidelines, but as soon as it is in the player's hands, the GM has virtually zero control unless they literally order PCs to behave a certain way or create draconian conditions that prevent the wizard from being able to get as much as others in usable equipment (like only handing out magical weapons and not letting the party sell anything).
And guess how distribution usually work? Players generally opt for the following - Split everything evenly between all PCs. They might do things like tend to give items to people who find them most useful and then sell them later, splitting the proceeds evenly, or count things like healing wands as a group resource even if one player is the only one activating them, or do some mix and try to dish out gold based on who hasn't gotten that many items, but the guiding principle is that everyone gets a fair share. If your solution involves the wizard being compelled to just hand over some of his stuff to the fighter because the mystical laws of the universe known only as WBL dictate it, then your solution is unequivocally terrible.
In my version on the Challenge here. The rogue use his inflitration, and set up class abillities to prepare a few last minutes defections among the wizards henchmen and Exchange some parts of his components for others to make some spells fizzle.
The figther use his totally awesome reputation class feature to get the Gates open and his resilience class feature to survive Lots of spells and stuff. The gunslinger also having the reputation But not quite as high use it to get some local guards to call in a emergency that make the wizard send away his top henchmonster leaving him only with rabble and traitors. The brawler is a figther by another name so we will leave him out of this.
So they use the class abillities that give them narrative power to change the stage, even in the bad guys home. Shake of his magic because of class abillities like resilience, evasion, the gunslinger miss a second save and use his no guts no glory class ability to blow all his gun power up and take him self out instead of being dominated to kill his friends. In the end the figther and the rogue corner wizard, and make him say he is sorry. The hard way.
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As much as I am fond of the Cu Chulainn example that Kirth Gersen provided earlier, I think it doesn't help as much as it could here.
Why? Because the Celtic hero being spoken of was a demigod. The breaks from reality only become acceptable because he has a supernatural element to him despite his Fighter levels, so to speak.
It isn't really a viable solution to slap on a magical template to every melee class. That is (correct me if I am wrong on this) the general consensus when it comes to possible fixing of classes like the Fighter.
For that matter, show me a 20th level wizard that can manage the same. The answer is... you can't. D20/Pathfinder nor AD+D was never built around those kinds of stories. So that argument at best, is a strawman.High level pathfinder games *are* superhero games.
Some people don't like it, but that's the way it is. Here's the breakdown-
Levels 1-5: Gritty, mostly realistic themes. Action is grounded in things that could theoretically be possible. Lord of the rings goes here.
Levels 6-10: Pulp fantasy/action movie style themes. Action is beyond realistic, but not so much that it is world-changing. Conan goes here.
Levels 10-15: Wuxia. Jedi, Crouching Tiger, and most greek myths go here. Heroes routinely do unbelievable things. Nothing realistic is a threat to them anymore.
Levels 15-20: Superheroes. Pug of Crydee, the Amberites, Belgarion the Godslayer, and Cu Chulain go here.
That's the breakdown for casters, yes. Here's the breakdown for martials.
Levels 1-5: Gritty, mostly realistic themes. Action is grounded in things that could theoretically be possible. Lord of the rings goes here.
Levels 6-10: Gritty, mostly realistic themes. Action is grounded in things that could theoretically be possible.
Levels 10-15: Gritty, mostly realistic themes. Action is grounded in things that could theoretically be possible.
Levels 15-20:Gritty, mostly realistic themes. Action is grounded in things that could theoretically be possible. Lord of the rings still goes here.
... and that's part of the issue.
As has been pointed out, Cuchulain can sling a stone for miles and chop the tops off mountains. Finn MacCool built the Giant's Causeway. Heracles can carry the sky on his shoulders.
Show me a 20th level fighter who can do that.
Since this is off-topic, I'm responding in this thread (which is slightly closer to the subject at hand). Let's leave this one alone.
These are my options, in order of how close to Pathfinder RAW they adhere:
Maybe the wizard has minions.
Maybe they have a lot of magical traps.
Maybe they have secret passages throughout their base.
Maybe they have a powerful staff, rod or library of scrolls.
All of these things can be assets for the wizard, or they can be subverted for the good of the party. There is plenty of room for a good story here, and there is no power the wizard can muster that the GM can not foreshadow and prepare the party for. The dice may fall where they may, but there is no reason the full-martial party can't have a fighting chance.
Maybe a hermit/monarch/mythic power/deity has tasked you with their defeat. They can aid you with items or information, in addition to just the plot hook.
Maybe you have earned a variety of favors over your years of adventuring, and now would be a good time to cash a few in.
Maybe the locals are ready to rise up and help overthrow their arcane oppressor.
A.) Give non-casters more feats. Feat taxes are lame, and many melee options seem like things anyone should be able to do. For non-casters only, I'd suggest 1 feat per BAB instead of one per odd-numbered level. Martial classes that received bonus feats would still gain those bonus feats.
B.) Allow any character that has moved less than or equal to their base movement speed minus 5 ft. in a round to use the full attack action. For example, a human with a base speed of 30 ft. would still be able to full attack after moving 25 ft.
C.) Almost all Combat Maneuvers should be move actions by default (excluding Tie Up and Sunder). The upgrade feats could remove the AoO's, allow them to be used as part of other move actions, reduce them to swift and so on. Also, any character should be able to use as many combat maneuvers in a full-round action as they would normally be allowed to use attacks in a full attack action.
Hmm. The level 17 party uses its money, buys a lot of explosives and blows up the castle. Given a wizard's trust in magic, he will likely underestimate technology.
I mean, it's a wizard - strong as a mountain if prepared, weak as a mouse if not. So it's all about catching him unprepared...
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Well, judging by his examples, I think he wants to give low level martials artifacts. That could work.I agree. The handouts would need to be baked into the classes, as class features, and not taken out of the party loot pool -- and the items would eventually have to do a lot more than anyone can currently do with PC WBL -- but yes, with those provisos, it could work.No. They. Don't.
What is wrong with it being taken out of the party loot pool?
Seriously. Are your high level adventurers dead broke or something all the time? I've never had cash flow problems at those kinds of levels in any iteration of D&D. Have you never crafted your own weapon to Masterwork, then consulted with your Wizard to see if he can enchant it for you? Being that you are in the party with him and you are on the same team most are more than willing to help you out. You can also get the Master Crafter feat and do it yourself as well.
You ALREADY get effectively free magical weapons and armor as you level up as a Fighter as it is from Armor Training and Weapon Training.
Its like, "I don't want to have to buy magical items." When every class has expenses. How about we do the opposite then...
You only get to use your full BAB 1/Day +1 for every point of Strength Bonus and then your BAB becomes 1/2 your character level when it is expended.
Don't worry though, every 4 levels you get another full BAB attack per day. Oh and if you don't get 8 hours of rest, then you don't regain those uses of BAB the next day because you are exhausted.
Every. Single. Class. Does. Not. Need. To. Be. 1:1 Balanced.
This is a TEAM game, not a solo MMORPG PVP kill-fest.
Also note:
You are ignoring the fact that the bonuses Fighters get to Armor and weapons (the armor effectively gives the benefit of magical +1's if you can Dex match it) and you get the benefit of magical +1's on your weapons too.Meaning, whereas a Paladin needs to add those +1's magically...
the only times I've ever been strapped for cash is when I try to build constructs
Those things get expensive quick.But yeah, magic swords and other gear (mostly the swords) have been a thing for as long as there has been fantasy
One of my two strongest martial characters was a 2e paladin with a badass magic sword
He killed a powerful demon and stole it's weapon, problem was the thing was cursed and evil, so he had to go on this whole quest to get it purified
Because of a little extra work I and the party bard put in the sword ended up more badass than before, keeping most of it's original abilities, and got some holy goodies out of it too
The sword was indestructible, no wound inflicted by it could be healed by any effect weaker than 8th level spells, on a crit it loped off a random limb if they failed a save, I was immune to magic that effected the mind and it let me cast spells as a 1st level wizard because of the enchantments I got into it on the quest I was basically immune to magic from equal level and lower evil casters, and I could banish evil outsiders
With just a quarter of each person's loot within the vanilla game you could build a team of homuli that could take our anything the wizard could dish out
You could bring back some of the rules from 2e
In 2e each class had restrictions on what magic items they could use and some variation of leadership was a class feature for everybody except the wizard, cleric and bard if I remember right
Having an epically high constitution let you heal faster than normal and a high wisdom made you immune to low level mind control
Armies are totally a thing, and so are magic items but balance isn't super vital, fun is pathfinder isn't a game of rock paper sissors, some options will be more powerful than others,
The wizard needs line of sight/effect to the project image spell itself, but once he's established that, only the image needs line of sight to the party. And saving against the projected image simply means that you recognize it as an image -- but it can still cast spells at you. Essentially, you're fighting the full-blown caster himself but you can't hurt him, while he can still hurt you.I don't think it would. For one thing, your über-gestalt is still limited by line of sight and line of effect. A simple project image would allow the caster to mess you up without fear of retribution and escape unharmed.
Heck, make the Fighter into a class that has all the Monk, Swashbuckler AND Rogue stuff and it would likely compete.How so? The range and duration are limited, they also need line of effect and sight to cast it, and if invisible, become visible upon taking offensive action.
Also, if interacted with, allows for a save. Which, with my four class gestalt, would have pretty solid saves.
So the assumption here is that the party stands idly by while he casts this spell, then continues to wait for him to turn invisible or teleport away?
I'm not sure they would do that.
I wouldn't.
Even if they politely waited for him to set this up, interacting with it allows for a saving throw. This spell isn't the be-all end-all you seem to think it is.
In my group, interacting with it is as simple as attacking it. Which they may or may not do, because even though the group is martial, for this exercise, at least one of them would have spellcraft maxed out to identify what is being cast...
I just realized that you said the saving throw means nothing. I strongly disagree. If the saving throw has zero effect, why would they get one?
I am getting so... Incredibly sick of these threads.For someone who's so sick of them, you appear not to have actually read any of them. The "magic items make martials equal to casters" thing has been debunked, I don't know, maybe 12,000 times?Well, judging by his examples, I think he wants to give low level martials artifacts.
That could work.
All joking and sarcasm aside, what about some kind of bonded item class feature?
Starts off with a +1, scales up as they level? That's one stumbling block martials often encounter: FINDING a good weapon they have spend all their feats on.
Just GIVE them what they need, that could go a long way.
Say, weapon at level one, armor at level 3, have them scale up every X levels.
I like that. :D
Thing is, even if the group does reach the wizard and stab him to death. It wont matter, because that wizard was just a simulacrum or an astral projection, and have no way to find out where the real wizard is. All the while, the wizard then scry and die's you guys with a different simulacrum/projection next week.
All the while still safe in his own plane of existence. There is no chance of the wizard losing.
This thread is about enabling that group to either track down said backups or somehow kill the Wizard so badly that he dies for real.
I'm struggling to sort out how to do that without going 'wuxia' or imparting magic onto these otherwise martials though.
Are we assuming that this wizard has every spell, and has cast every spell before the fight?
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I am getting so... Incredibly sick of these threads.For someone who's so sick of them, you appear not to have actually read any of them. The "magic items make martials equal to casters" thing has been debunked, I don't know, maybe 12,000 times?Well, judging by his examples, I think he wants to give low level martials artifacts.
That could work.
All joking and sarcasm aside, what about some kind of bonded item class feature?
Starts off with a +1, scales up as they level? That's one stumbling block martials often encounter: FINDING a good weapon they have spend all their feats on.
Just GIVE them what they need, that could go a long way.
Say, weapon at level one, armor at level 3, have them scale up every X levels.
I like that. :D
...
You...
You do know that you already get this right?
Starting at 5th level they pick a weapon group. They get a +1 to attack and damage rolls with the weapons in that weapon group. This is basically the exact same bonus that magical weapons give. A magical sword +1 gives a +1 bonus to attack and defense.
Every 4 levels thereafter they select another weapon group, and each previous weapon group gets an additional +1.
... The game GIVES you what you need. Gold. It is the standard reward. Go to a crafter, commission a magical weapon that the Fighter wants. You don't even need to randomly find one in a dungeon. Get you party's wizard/sorcerer/etc to make it for you if they can, take Master Craftsman and make it yourself.
I... I just don't understand you guys.
Do your GMs never give you any gold? Does your Fighter blow hundreds of thousands of gold coins on the local bar wenches? Find a +1 dagger? BONUS... Sell it for at least 1,000 GP. Just killed an evil Dragon? Ransack the dragon's huge piles of loot. Defeated a despicable prince? Time to melt the crown down, take his ceremonial armor, you know the solid...
Dial it back a bit there, champ.
Fighters do NOT get magical weapons.
Nor do fighters get magical armor.
They get BONUSES to hit, and reduction in penalties.
This does not overcome damage reduction in any way, other than a small bonus to hit/damage.
What I suggested was adding ACTUAL magic items as a class feature.
I'm sorry you don't understand what we are trying to do, we are trying to suggest ways to bring martials up to a level of power where they are on par with casters.
My fighters spend all their money on a stupid cycle of selling their existing weapons at a loss and buying new ones at full price in a futile attempt to keep up with the caster who can just TRADE spells ingame and accumulate power far more easily than the fighter.
My suggestion, as it was obviously not understood, is to ADD, as a CLASS FEATURE, armor and weapons that scale at NO ADDITIONAL cost to the fighter.
This, I think, would help solve some of the disparity between martials and casters.
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Armies are totally a thing, and so are magic items but balance isn't super vital, fun is pathfinder isn't a game of rock paper sissors, some options will be more powerful than others,Some options will be situationally more powerful than others.
The casters have more options available each day.
Some of the casters can change their options from day to day depending on what they expect to be useful.
The casters' options scale up to be much more powerful.
The casters' options cover more situations.
And if the advantage of the fighters and others was that they weren't restricted by things the game they said they could do but by their imagination and what the GM allowed, I would expect a lot of threads saying how martials cut holes through walls, slay major enemies with single attacks due to a clever description, persuade monarchs to lend them whole armies. Which would go on to explain how important it was to free casters from the restrictions of their spell list and simply give them big numbers for their magic skill and allow them to describer what they do with it so that they were able to keep up with monstrously over-powered classes. I don't see many of those, which suggests either players or GMs aren't doing those things.
The brawler can take entire feet trees to suit his situation, Roges and rangers classically use items, often disposable ones to give them exactly what they need for a given fight, though I've not actually seen much of this used outside of NPCs
And then you get into path of war classes...Truefact: A wizard doesn't need more than 2 spells per Wizard Level to achieve nearly 100% of the power described in martial vs caster threads.The fact that the party is inevitably going to split loot roughly evenly and this powers up God even more.I should note that Wizards need to buy most of their spells. Maybe, every arcane magic spell known in his spell book should count against his wealth by level?Except they get 2 spells every level for free...
Also remember, they can also copy down spells from Scrolls they happen to find around
truefact: roughly 80% of what I play are some flavor of caster (I like options, and I like blowing things up with my mind)
And I've never expirenced what you are describingOh and a few more things for the fix pile
Take rogue, add all of the things that an unchained rogue can do, all the things a ninja can do, all the things a vanilla rogue can do and the glory rouge archetype/buff, give improved steel as a bonus feat at some point before level 10, give minor magic as a bonus talent at level 1 and major at level 10ish, and a slight increase to movement speed, let's say half of the monk's bonus and an advanced talent option that grants SR and non detection
Give the fighter some kind of ability akin to evasion but for fort or will saves (his choice eg half of stalwart, maybe all of it at a later level) and have the save chosen become a good save, give him some energy resistance to go with his dr
For the gunslinger all he really needs is some special ammunition, and something to make sniping more viable, maybe alchemist's bomb their int # of times per day
The brawler, maybe away to heal himself with booze?
@alex 1975: are you talking about something like what the ageis and soulknife have?
@ Lord Foul II
Not familiar with Ageis or Soulknife, do they get scaling weapons as they level?
In 3.5 there was the Kensai PRC that got it, it worked pretty well... if I recall correctly it basically granted EXTRA bonuses to an existing weapon...
I'm suggesting a standalone item(s) that scale with level, and not maxing out at 18 or 20, I'm thinking like +10 enhancement by level 15, tops.
Maybe start at level 1 as +1, go up +1 every odd level.
That way a level 9 would have a +5 equivalent.
This isn't imbalanced in my opinion. I had a rogue (thief?) in 2nd edition that found a +5 sword at level 2, it was HILARIOUS. We didn't have a fighter, so I got pushed out front every fight.
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Soulknife gets a scaling weapon that they create with their mind, it's basically their entire class
Ageis get a custom suit of armor (technically several interchangeable suits)
There is a PrC that lets you advance both at the same time
Soulknife can also get a special shield or armor or partial casting with it's archetypes
Soulknife's. Progression goes: lvl 1-2: masterwork, lvl 3-5: +1,6-8: +2 and so on
Next question for you: would this stack with other enchantments?
Soulknife gets a scaling weapon that they create with their mind, it's basically their entire class
Ageis get a custom suit of armor (technically several interchangeable suits)
There is a PrC that lets you advance both at the same time
Soulknife can also get a special shield or armor or partial casting with it's archetypesSoulknife's. Progression goes: lvl 1-2: masterwork, lvl 3-5: +1,6-8: +2 and so on
We don't use Psionics at our table. :(
Looks fun though.
The wizard needs line of sight/effect to the project image spell itself, but once he's established that, only the image needs line of sight to the party. And saving against the projected image simply means that you recognize it as an image -- but it can still cast spells at you. Essentially, you're fighting the full-blown caster himself but you can't hurt him, while he can still hurt you.I don't think it would. For one thing, your über-gestalt is still limited by line of sight and line of effect. A simple project image would allow the caster to mess you up without fear of retribution and escape unharmed.
Heck, make the Fighter into a class that has all the Monk, Swashbuckler AND Rogue stuff and it would likely compete.How so? The range and duration are limited, they also need line of effect and sight to cast it, and if invisible, become visible upon taking offensive action.
Also, if interacted with, allows for a save. Which, with my four class gestalt, would have pretty solid saves.
So the assumption here is that the party stands idly by while he casts this spell, then continues to wait for him to turn invisible or teleport away?
I'm not sure they would do that.
I wouldn't.
Even if they politely waited for him to set this up, interacting with it allows for a saving throw. This spell isn't the be-all end-all you seem to think it is.
In my group, interacting with it is as simple as attacking it. Which they may or may not do, because even though the group is martial, for this exercise, at least one of them would have spellcraft maxed out to identify what is being cast...
I just realized that you said the saving throw means nothing. I strongly disagree. If the saving throw has zero effect, why would they get one?
because even if they know it's an image it's still trying to murder you... like sure it's an image, but that image is still casting normal spells at you.
I am getting so... Incredibly sick of these threads.For someone who's so sick of them, you appear not to have actually read any of them. The "magic items make martials equal to casters" thing has been debunked, I don't know, maybe 12,000 times?Well, judging by his examples, I think he wants to give low level martials artifacts.
That could work.
All joking and sarcasm aside, what about some kind of bonded item class feature?
Starts off with a +1, scales up as they level? That's one stumbling block martials often encounter: FINDING a good weapon they have spend all their feats on.
Just GIVE them what they need, that could go a long way.
Say, weapon at level one, armor at level 3, have them scale up every X levels.
I like that. :D
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You...
You do know that you already get this right?
Starting at 5th level they pick a weapon group. They get a +1 to attack and damage rolls with the weapons in that weapon group. This is basically the exact same bonus that magical weapons give. A magical sword +1 gives a +1 bonus to attack and defense.
Every 4 levels thereafter they select another weapon group, and each previous weapon group gets an additional +1.
... The game GIVES you what you need. Gold. It is the standard reward. Go to a crafter, commission a magical weapon that the Fighter wants. You don't even need to randomly find one in a dungeon. Get you party's wizard/sorcerer/etc to make it for you if they can, take Master Craftsman and make it yourself.
I... I just don't understand you guys.
Do your GMs never give you any gold? Does your Fighter blow hundreds of thousands of gold coins on the local bar wenches? Find a +1 dagger? BONUS... Sell it for at least 1,000 GP. Just killed an evil Dragon? Ransack the dragon's huge piles of loot. Defeated a despicable prince? Time to melt the crown down, take his ceremonial armor, you know the solid...
magical enhancement bonuses bypass DR, weapon training does not...
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As much as I am fond of the Cu Chulainn example that Kirth Gersen provided earlier, I think it doesn't help as much as it could here.
Why? Because the Celtic hero being spoken of was a demigod. The breaks from reality only become acceptable because he has a supernatural element to him despite his Fighter levels, so to speak.
It isn't really a viable solution to slap on a magical template to every melee class. That is (correct me if I am wrong on this) the general consensus when it comes to possible fixing of classes like the Fighter.
Why do you think a high level fighter should not be considered magical?
They can fall from orbit and survive. They can swim in lava. They can drink a mug of poison and be fine. Every time they take a swing it's the equivalent of a True Strike spell. They can outwrestle giants and dragons.
Sounds pretty magical to me. Why not just admit it and bake some appropriately over the top magic into the fighter's high-level options?
So, regarding Project Image, is the consensus that regardless of whether or not you make your save...
it does nothing?
I mean, why even allow a save if making it doesn't do anything?
Seriously.
Making the save means you recognize it as a SHADOW EFFECT.
That means it does 20% normal damage.
Also, you gotta maintain line of effect to it... so it isn't that great.
Please, PLEASE cast that spell on me, I will gladly take 1/5th damage.
So, regarding Project Image, is the consensus that regardless of whether or not you make your save...
it does nothing?
No, it means that you recognize it as an illusion.
That means it does 20% normal damage.
Well, yes. In the same sense that there are four pieces on the chessboard at the start of a game, yes.
The spell is very explicit: "The spells affect other targets normally, despite originating from the projected image." Normally, in this case, means 100% damage.
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You disbelief that the person is there...beside that, it does indeed nothing, as the disbelief doesn't break the invisibility effect on the caster. As the projected image is kind of like a familiar, you can use to cast spells from your image instead of you, it doesn't change the property of the spell, it's just an animated staff...i guess would be the best way to put it.
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So, regarding Project Image, is the consensus that regardless of whether or not you make your save...
it does nothing?
No, it means that you recognize it as an illusion.
That means it does 20% normal damage.Well, yes. In the same sense that there are four pieces on the chessboard at the start of a game, yes.
The spell is very explicit: "The spells affect other targets normally, despite originating from the projected image." Normally, in this case, means 100% damage.
I think you might be using the spell wrong. It is a shadow effect, which if disbelieved, does 20% damage.
'Normally' means, when you save, 20% damage. Not 100%.
It is normal to take 20% damage from Shadows you have disbelieved.
It is NOT normal to take full damage against Shadows you disbelieved.
This is why the spell ends with this:
"Objects are affected by the projected image as if they had succeeded on their Will save. You must maintain line of effect to the projected image at all times. If your line of effect is obstructed, the spell ends. If you use dimension door, teleport, plane shift, or a similar spell that breaks your line of effect, even momentarily, the spell ends."
Objects don't take 100%, because they have 'made their save', and thus take 20%
Anywho, it's just one spell, but I needed to make sure that was clear.
Obviously casters have better options at this level.
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I think you might be using the spell wrong.
Fair enough. Thread consensus is that you're using the spell wrong, so I'm not likely to change how I run it at my table. If you want to start a FAQ thread, be my guest.
Fair enough. Thread consensus is that you're using the spell wrong, so I'm not likely to change how I run it at my table. If you want to start a FAQ thread, be my guest.
I think you might be using the spell wrong.
For real?
Wow.
Is it a Shadow effect? Yes.
Do Shadows effects still do damage if you save? Yes
How much? 20%
Where is the confusion on this one?
Also, where are people saying I'm the one using it wrong?
C'mon guys, look at the spell, read up on illusions.
It is "normal" for Shadows to do 20% damage if you save against them.
This is a basic mechanic in the game, it's not something new or obscure.
There is NOTHING in the spell that would suggest it does full damage after a successful save, so why should it?
people crying anime yet ignoring people from the western myths like Cu Chulainn pulled off the same stuff regularly
"realistic" martials stop at 6th level or so, after that they become painfully crippled in concept compared to the creatures that can say f!$~ physics of adequate CR
people crying anime yet ignoring people from the western myths like Cu Chulainn pulled off the same stuff regularlyOf course they are. That doesn't make them like it anymore. Nor is crying anime a rational reason to not let stuff into the game. But people don't like it.
And Cu Chulainn was Mythic, so there's no need to give that kind of thing to normal fighters. :)
If people still are dead set on jerking off on "realism" they should cap the fighter at level 6 or so because after that it becomes embarassing already.
Monks (or anyone who takes Improved Unarmed Strike) can punch rhinos to death despite their thick skin but I'd like to see someone trying to enforce actual physics in this.
So, regarding Project Image, is the consensus that regardless of whether or not you make your save...
it does nothing?
I mean, why even allow a save if making it doesn't do anything?
Seriously.
Making the save means you recognize it as a SHADOW EFFECT.
That means it does 20% normal damage.Also, you gotta maintain line of effect to it... so it isn't that great.
Please, PLEASE cast that spell on me, I will gladly take 1/5th damage.
but the spells it casts aren't shadow effects...
edit: so yeah feel free to create a FAQ thread since apparently no one else agrees.
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Fair enough. Thread consensus is that you're using the spell wrong, so I'm not likely to change how I run it at my table. If you want to start a FAQ thread, be my guest.
I think you might be using the spell wrong.For real?
Wow.
Is it a Shadow effect? Yes.
Do Shadows effects still do damage if you save? Yes
How much? 20%Where is the confusion on this one?
Also, where are people saying I'm the one using it wrong?
C'mon guys, look at the spell, read up on illusions.
It is "normal" for Shadows to do 20% damage if you save against them.
This is a basic mechanic in the game, it's not something new or obscure.There is NOTHING in the spell that would suggest it does full damage after a successful save, so why should it?
Shadow: A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real.
There is no 20% rule from the magic chapter with regard to illusions.
The only time 20% comes up in the magic chapter is here.
Verbal (V): A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice. A silence spell or a gag spoils the incantation (and thus the spell). A spellcaster who has been deafened has a 20% chance of spoiling any spell with a verbal component that he tries to cast.
Yes, I know the other shadow spells reference 20%, but that does not make it a general rule.
Project image itself does not mention the 20% rule so that does not apply.
It does say "Saving Throw Will disbelief (if interacted with)"
So what happens when an illusion is disbelieved?
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
The saving throw lets you know the spell is an illusion if you make the save, and that is a good thing. Otherwise you could keep trying to fight it, and getting jacked up by a caster who is laughing at you from the other side of the room.
The illusion itself is also not casting the spell. It is just where the caster is sending the spells(which are very real) from.
That is what this line is for ----> " The spells affect other targets normally, despite originating from the projected image."
Since there is nothing in the rules saying that passing the saves lessens the affect of the spells then that is how the rules work.
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but the spells it casts aren't shadow effects...So, regarding Project Image, is the consensus that regardless of whether or not you make your save...
it does nothing?
I mean, why even allow a save if making it doesn't do anything?
Seriously.
Making the save means you recognize it as a SHADOW EFFECT.
That means it does 20% normal damage.Also, you gotta maintain line of effect to it... so it isn't that great.
Please, PLEASE cast that spell on me, I will gladly take 1/5th damage.
LOL!
Okay, if people want to read it that way, then delete the save being allowed, and delete the line of text about objects acting as if having made the save, as CLEARLY the person writing the spell made a mistake.
*walks away shaking his head*
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but the spells it casts aren't shadow effects...So, regarding Project Image, is the consensus that regardless of whether or not you make your save...
it does nothing?
I mean, why even allow a save if making it doesn't do anything?
Seriously.
Making the save means you recognize it as a SHADOW EFFECT.
That means it does 20% normal damage.Also, you gotta maintain line of effect to it... so it isn't that great.
Please, PLEASE cast that spell on me, I will gladly take 1/5th damage.
LOL!
Okay, if people want to read it that way, then delete the save being allowed, and delete the line of text about objects acting as if having made the save, as CLEARLY the person writing the spell made a mistake.
*walks away shaking his head*
That is how everyone runs it that can read the rules correctly. If everyone(99%) of us are wrong then start the FAQ, or you can cite rules. So far you have not typed anything to back your opinion, but feel free to do what you want at your table. Just know the PDT would not rule it the way you are suggesting it.