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Pronate11 wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

I will not operate under this assumption unless informed by a dev. As it's more an exception to the rule.

I will point out, medium armor is almost certainly less disrupted than using con for Ac, which is what you are suggesting. So, what should Paizo remove to add con for AC?

You lose Dex to ac. It's a swap. Not a combine.

I'm not against medium armor as an option btw. I just don't know where they'd pull from if they decided that was needed.

Where from this concept of a budget that you keep referring to would they pull to apply your 'Con to X Stat' idea?

Furthermore, I think even having a concept of a budget on what a kineticist can or can't do is a bad idea this early into the playtest. We shouldn't set hard barriers on what the class can and can't be based on what is clearly in need of fine tuning.

It really is bizarre to me that a class can have Con as their key ability but get stuck with a d8 hit die. If they want to convey that it's a tough class, they should just give it a d10 and make the key ability Dex or Str based on if you want to be melee or ranged.

Also, if we have the ability to make weapons out of our chosen element, why don't we get a similar choice for armor? Why is the Shield stand-in restricted to Earth? I understand Assume Earth's Mantle exists, but having a much lower level feat that grants essentially light armor to air, medium to water and fire, and heavy to earth would still be on brand I feel.

Your playtest results are valid, but to be honest, I am not sure I am going to making any significant changes to the game based on a rather harcore approach to NPC tactics.

I can understand not wanting to make significant changes, but could you at least elucidate further on how foes are meant to handle downed players? "... only the most viscous creatures..." tells us very little of what actually would attack a downed player, and leaves far too much to interpretation.

The rules didn't crumble, your combats did because you had all enemies function as "vicious" and focus fire and CDG individual PCs until there was none.

Intentionally misreading a rule to force a negative income does in no way/shape/form prove a rule is faulty.

What exact ruling was misinterpreted?

If you enjoy running survival games, then just change the rules for your game rather than requesting a change that would alter the game for everyone, including those that don't like survival-esque campaigns. It's that easy.

Even if you changed the encounter to something else the room is full of strategic possibillity where it would be impossible for the enemies to shoot.like behind the pillars and in the niches.

You can just run away and take him in another room. There is alot of big rooms. Well nevermind your players obviously didn't figure this one out so..

Being rude to someone isn't going to help make the game anymore fun, man. The party never expected to get annihilated within a single round, which is why they didn't have the time to explore the avenues you're talking about. This wasn't a drawn out fight either time, this was near instantaneous death. And as for changing things, this is a playtest. They were given a scenario to beat. They did not beat the scenario. If you were to alter it so they could beat it, the feedback goes out the window.

Just because you saw a guy rolling around in armor on YouTube, does not change the fact that many task are actually harder to do when you put armor on, swimming, climbing, and yes acrobatic moves too, and many other things like fatigue. I know for a fact, I have worn armor, and I wore body armor, for many long periods of time for many decades. Training and experience in the armor helps but it never mitigates the penalties completely . The ideas you suggest are dangerous to the game 1 they make no sense. 2. In a game you describe everyone would wear plate mail. You need interesting choices for a successful fun game. Armor needs to have serious drawbacks. Having no armor needs to have serious drawbacks, which it does AC +0, touch AC +0.

So despite there being plenty of documentation to the contrary, you're going to refuse to acknowledge it just because "Oh well this was my experience with it, so it must be everyone's."? Kinda a funny argument when you're arguing with someone over playtest feedback, but hey, you do you. Also, "interesting choices" should not mean "choices you are penalized for taking". Not to mention that characters that usually go without armor gain it for free elsewhere, so really if anything, folks that actually wear the armor should be at an equal playing field, not constantly at a disadvantage because they decided to not make a wizard.

Warrior of the Holy Light is fun, but only if you're okay with losing spellcasting.

Kineticists can utilize Spirited Charge and Kinetic Blade for ludicrous damage.

Occultist/Brawler. Basically a sort of "Build your own Class" deal.

Bah, just go base, grab the feats that give an animal companion and spirited charge. Charge and deal 20d6+20+con at level 9. Half the damage to do it at touch.

It's an implement that technically would take the place of two implements, since you have to select it and lose out on selecting another, limiting you to 3 implements. Also, take a glance at the Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue archetype.

EDIT: Er, five implements. Not sure where three came from.

Make it an archetype that gains access to a special implement that doesn't grant spells and they get one less implement. This implement's resonant power would be sneak attack 1/4th to 3/4ths that of a rogues. The base power could be an ability that treats a target as if it was flatfooted, and can be fed more points to get a bonus to hit. Other powers could be toggleable rogue talents or the like.

Cavalier/Kineticist can and will absolutely annihilate single targets via Kinetic Blade, Spirited Charge, and Order of the Flame. Anything that gets a mount can build similarly, but I don't think it can match the shenanigans of the Order of the Flame.

The feat Fast Healer does not work with a Spelleater Bloodrager's Blood of Life, even though it's an (Su) ability.

Kineticist with a similar build can hit for 10d6+X at touch ac and 20d6+X at normal ac. Spirited Charge is 100% shenanigans.

I was thinking that the AC would get every other SA progression in place of the Rogue(3rd, 7th, 11th, etc), sorry, I worded it poorly.

(apologies for the double post - a disconnected idea warranted not editing the first post - I hope)

Maybe giving the AC weapon finesse and dex to damage at level 3-5 would allow a size cap and keep it relevant?

You could also split SA progression between the two, as I had mentioned.

No one seems to be in favor of my idea of putting a cap on the size of the companion.

Screw more skill ranks, give it INT bonuses, but it doesn't get a size advancement.

I really like the idea of limiting its size, but I think you should really play to the idea of having it be as clever as its Master. And my line of thought for the INT bonuses were that they would get skill ranks from having a good score.

You could do some really cool stuff with this, like making it to where the Rogue only gets half their SA damage and the companion gets the other half. Free Outflank at level X. Less Rogue Talents, but you can share them with your AC. Screw more skill ranks, give it INT bonuses, but it doesn't get a size advancement. You'd be the runts of the litter, but you'd be some sneaky little shits.

This should go in the 3rd party version of this thread, but in general prerequisites are things that cannot be taken away from you (skill ranks, attributes, feats) and not things that come and go like gold and other materials.

Oh, whoops, didn't realize there was one.

So I've read through this whole guide, and I've got one question thats reaaaaaally been bugging me:

Does Gold count as a prerequisite for crafting? If so, Kinetic Crafter might need some errata.

Secret Broker Occultist with the Divination and Enchantment implements.

Well, if you aren't interested in the Evangelist, just VMC Bard. If you still were to take 4 levels of Martyr/WotHL, you'd have full Inspire Courage progression. However, this does complicate a ranged build since you give up so many feats.

Have you considered Necromancy as your second implement?

-On demand Familiars for anything you can think of. Knowledge check? Sage Raven Familiar. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle Battle Buddy? Turtle Mauler. Also, I'm sure there's shenanigans to be had here with Improved Familiar, just not really sure how.

-On demand skeleton that at level 5 simply refuses to die, can wield a greatsword, and assist in abusing the action economy. You mentioned your character's Mentor assisting him in battle with Spiritual Ally, so why not have whats left of his body join in too?

-On demand temp hp to make up for that d8 HD.

Try out 4 levels of Evangelist Cleric. From there, dip 4 levels into a Paladin with the Martyr and Warrior of the Holy Light Archetypes. This'll make you sturdier in melee and give you some nice bonuses, such as Lay on Hands, a +1 morale bonus to just about everything Evangelist is already adding to with Inspire Courage, better BaB, and it continues to rack up those effective Bard levels. After your four levels of Paladin, you could continue leveling it to rack up some more bonuses, go back to cleric to improve your spellcasting, or dip Life Oracle for more healing. Oh, and check out the Defense subdomain for your domain. It gets some nice toys.

Monk/Swashbuckler with Hamatulatsu Strike. I originally made it a while back, before Scaled Fist came out, so chances are that it works even better now then it did.

Would a homebrew archetype that adds to a Kineticist's Internal Buffer in the same way a Drunken Master Monk can gain temporary ki points be broken?

Screw Druid, go Agathiel Vigilante. No one will know you aren't actually a pony. It hurts familiar progression, so you'll have to burn a feat, but you end up with a permanent and stronger shape in place of a timed one, and things that could help you when you're in town, but you do give up spellcasting.

Inquisitor qualifies for Scaled Disciple, yeah? Just do that.

Has Paladin/Alchemist been done? Trading out a lot of the magic of the paladin for alchemic devices that acomplish much the same sounds really cool.

4 levels of Agathiel Vigilante followed by Id Rager or Rageshaper Bloodrager. I haven't had the chance to play it, but playing what is essentially a really angry awakened dire badger that is also on fire sounds great.

You could have implements that pick stuff from other classes, like a Bardic lute. You pick spells from the bard list, cast as psychic, passive bonus to social stuff, base power to do some bardic performance stuff.

EDIT: You could also do a brawler/fighter one where its a passive bonus to CMB/D and the base power is martial flexibility. Not too sure what'd you would do for spells though.

So, as I was thinking of making a Vigilante, I decided to browse it's archetypes. Of those, Agathiel caught my eye simply because it's a shapeshifting-esque archetype, and I eat that sort of thing up. I also noticed that at second level, they get Aspect of the Beast, and one of the bonuses they get if they choose claws are two slam attacks. This comes into play later. Settling on the archetype, I tried to decide what animal I should be, and realized that a badger would probably be hilarious, so I went with that. The built in rage feature and things I thought were just icing on the cake, but I decided to look at dipping for more rage related shenanigans. I soon remember the Bloodrager archetype, Id Rager, and here I am.

tl;dr how well would these classes mesh? Would the slam attacks increase in damage as I progressed bloodrager levels? Would they get spiritualist goodies? Is it even worth looking at?

You don't get slam attacks. If you did, the Id Rager would be a great archetype.

There's a trait that swaps INT for CHA when it comes to UMD. Something Activator.

Occultist with martial flexibility.
Druid that "weirdshapes" into aberrations.
Cavalier/Swashbuckler that uses mounted feats without use of a mount.
Cleric that trades channeling energy for the ability to make weapons out of positive or negative energy. I've always wanted to play a Jedi.
AoO focused Ranger who treats bows as staves, as if under the bowstaff spell.

Swap CHA with WIS. Pick Trans and Necro to start, then Div. Abjuration can be picked later, as many of its best powers aren't available til then. Trust me, you want Div's invis eye power.

You could give it some crazy stuff, like letting it benefit from mounted feats without needing a mount. Or some neat overrun stuff.

For whatever reason, I can't edit my post, but I gave it some more thought. It seems like getting mounted feat benefits as deeds or as bonus feats then ignoring the need for a mount would align fairly close to what you're going for.

You could give it some crazy stuff, like letting it benefit from mounted feats without needing a mount. Or some neat overrun stuff.

As the title asks. I'm aware of the options paizo provides, but I don't really like any of them.

Magical Girl/Mesmerist - You become the best liar. Ever. Combine with Enigma or Vexing Daredevil for increased shenanigans.

Magical Girl/Bloodrager - Do it. Celestial/Infernal crossblood.

Ninja/Occultist. Probably not the strongest all-round by any means, but capable of dealing some serious damage to a single target. Vanishing Trick + Legacy Weapon + two +1 weapons = coming out of invisibility hitting for 4d6/hit(12d6 altogether if a third hit is added by spending another ki point) plus whatever bonuses at 3rd level. It might be on the MAD side of things, it's action economy is atrocious, and I'm not sure WBL allows for two +1 weapons at level 3, but hey, it sounds cool if you could get it to work.

Ghoran Barbarian/Bloodrager with a general focus on being an unstoppable plant-person capable of rooting themselves in place for positive effects and eventually gaining root/tendril/pull attacks while doing so.

These Paladins are more than just rare, they are near the same status as a holy relic. The personification of self sacrifice, these men and women were bartered from Pharasma by their respective gods to continue to serve them on the mortal plane. However, death and the presence of the divine has left it's mark on these individuals, instilling within them techniques that very well could lead to their death once more.

Alignment: Choose whichever is closest to your god's alignment from the following: Lawful Good, Neutral Good, Lawful Neutral.This alters Alignment and the Code of Conduct.

Consume Evil:(Su) Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin heals for 1/2 Con + their level on each successful attack that deals lethal damage. If the target of consume evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the healing increases to Con + Damage Dealt. Regardless of the target, consume evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.

The consume evil effect remains until the target is dead or the next time the paladin rests and regains her uses of this ability. At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the paladin may consume evil one additional time per day, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level. This replaces Smite Evil.

Bleed New Blood:(Su) Beginning at 2nd level, a Bloodied Beacon can heal the wounds of others by touch. Each day she can use this ability a number of times equal to 1/2 her paladin level plus her Constitution modifier. With one use of this ability, a paladin can heal 1d6 hit points of damage for every two paladin levels she possesses, but takes an equal amount of damage. Using this ability is a standard action. A Bloodied Beacon needs at least one free hand to use this ability. This replaces Lay on Hands.

Alternatively, a paladin can use this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures, dealing 1d6 points of damage for every two levels the paladin possesses, while only taking half that damage. Using Bleed New Blood in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. Undead do not receive a saving throw against this damage.

Divine Ichor:(Su) At 3rd level, the Bloodied Beacon gains Regeneration (Ex). While this keeps the Beacon from dying, they will only ever heal to 1 hit point and remain unconscious when below 0. In place of fire or acid, the only damage capable of killing the Beacon must be evil aligned, or have the evil type. The Beacon's Class Level in Paladin must be equal to Character Level, or the Beacon loses this ability. This replaces Divine Grace, Mercies*, and Divine Health.

Channel Positive Energy:(Su)The Bloodied Beacon's Channel Positive Energy is based off of their Con, not their Cha. This modifies CPE.

Bleed for the Gods: At fourth level, the Beacon gains no spellcasting ability, and instead can cast the following as SLA's at the indicated level for the indicated amount of hit points, which increase by one die every four levels(1d6-2d6)*. Treat the Beacon's Class Levels as his Caster Level for these abilities:

Level 4:*
Bless - 1d6
Challenge Evil - 1d4
Cure Light Wounds - 1d8
Level 6:*
Protection from Evil -1d6
Divine Favor - 1d6
Level 7:*
Paladin's Sacrifice - 1d4
Martyr's Bargain - 1d4
Level 9:*
Angelic Aspect, Lesser - 1d8

* = Liable to change

(That's all I've got time for right now, but let me know what you think! I know the lore is... bad, and the numbers are all wonky, but I'm in a bit of a rush, so once I get some feedback I'll be more than happy to change it!)

Use this as a starting point and just reflavor a few things. Maybe add some class levels in fighter or brawler. Maybe even Alchemist.

Play an Occultist or a Black Blade Magus! While they don't have anyway to appeal to your love of Oozes, their focus on items and intelligent items can be really fun to RP. They both not only have casting(up to 6th level), but a myriad of fun abilities to play with.

I've always wanted to try a Rageshaper/Id Rager. Not sure if either archetypes are allowed in PFS, but taking Anger would allow you to Slam Jam every enemy into oblivion.

Or you could go for Summoner-Lite, and take Ancestral Harbinger, which just oozes flavor.

Mage Knight -> Eclectic
Blade School -> Arcane Practice
Blade of (the)... -> Practitioner of (the)...

BS/AP names-
Div/Trans = Deific Ward
Div/Evo = Oncoming Storm
Div/Ench = Sealing Glyph
Ench/Abj = Coercive Bulwark
Ench/Conj = Sudden Union
Ench/Evo = Devious Crossfire

And that's all I've got for the moment, but lemme read this instead of skim it and I'll give some actual feedback.

EDIT: Alright, I think the talents may be a bit much. Maybe instead, you could do sets of bonus feats(like a ranger's combat styles) that depend on the school/practice. Which brings me to my next point, you should really focus on the schools themselves, as there is a ton of moving parts to them already. Once you get all of them cemented, see if the class feels lacking in features, and work from there.

If you were to make room for three levels of Fighter (Trench Fighter/Crossbowman + Eldritch Guardian) you can grab a large ranged weapon and have your familiar help you use it with Artillery Team. There are also a ton of good teamwork feats for ranged combat, and if you want to be really cheesy, I think Broken Wing/Paw Gambit would be pretty funny if it worked.