Those aren't official feats, they are homebrew. I think that's Frank and K's stuff.
Be careful of it. I'm not saying its overpowered, I'm just saying be careful.
The original Mage SLayer feat is Here: http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-arcane--55/mage-slayer--1818/
with links to the other two.
All three of those feats were from COmplete Arcane, and should be quoted that way.
==Aelryinth
When I get home I'll start a conversion thread and link it here.
that's no basis for a system of government!
help help, i'm being oppressed.
I'm also sure that Paul Bunyon, leader in the Papineau Rebellion, was not a hundred feet tall, didn't have a big blue ox, and so forth. That's kind of the point. Folk tales -- and fantasy -- are not limited by what really happened or could happen.
Whether or not such a man ever existed as a part of said rebellion is also an unverified claim. I'll admit it's an interesting theory, and certainly far more more plausible than the folk-tale we heard as children, but as of this writing, has not been confirmed as historical fact.
I'm quite the history buff myself, but as exciting as these stories are to think about, it's important to remember that "theory more plausible than obvious myth" does not necessarily equal "what actually happened" unless we get further evidence/corroboration that backs up said claims.
It's like the theory that if someone like King Arthur ever existed, he was likely a Roman commander or something, and didn't wear plate-armor because that would't have been invented until centuries later. He certainly wasn't made king by the will of strange women lying on their backs in ponds handing out swords because that's no basis for a system of government!
Interesting, because Paul Bunyan where I come from is supposed to be one of the iconic characters from the Michigan lumber camps of the later 1800's.
Michigan used to be a heavily forested state covered by white pine. The lower half of the Lower Peninsula was basically clear cut for two generations by men who got very wealthy doing so, and used to be extremely influential. White pine from thousands of square miles of Michigan forest built homes all over the country before, during and after the Civil War.
The primary places this product exited the state were Detroit and Bay City, because of the rivers there. Bay City had 'Hell's Half Mile', a strip of bars, salons, and the like catering to the overworked and underpaid lumbermen going there to let off steam. Paul Bunyan was one of those hellraisers, and fell into myth and talltales that grew in the telling.
:)
--------------
Note that the gifting of Excalibur to the king was an example of Divine Ordination. And that was indeed a very, very viable form of government for thousands of years. Being picked by a supernatural entity gives you a lot of credence.
==Aelryinth
Whether or not such a man ever existed as a part of said rebellion is also an unverified claim.
I'm also sure that Paul Bunyon, leader in the Papineau Rebellion, was not a hundred feet tall, didn't have a big blue ox, and so forth. That's kind of the point. Folk tales -- and fantasy -- are not limited by what really happened or could happen.
I'm not entirely sure of the point you're trying to make here. Are you suggesting that the leader of the Papineau Rebellion really was a hundred feet tall, and did have an ox companion that was "42 axe handles plus a plug of tobacco" across the horns?
Because unless that's what you're suggesting, then that's even stronger evidence for what I said -- "Folk tales -- and fantasy -- are not limited by what really happened or could happen."
Don't be dissing my man Paul. I so wanted to have some of the hotcakes off that grill that was so large, men had to grease it wearing skates made out of bacon.
mm-mm.
==Aelryinth
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
that's no basis for a system of government!help help, i'm being oppressed.
Discrimination against the Lady of the Lake?
To arms, to arms, gentle sirs!
==Aelryinth
Discrimination against the Lady of the Lake?that's no basis for a system of government!help help, i'm being oppressed.
Only if she floats; if she sinks, she's probably OK.
tbc i don't spam spells, i wait until i need to cast a spell, all other times i'm using a crossbow because I pumped dex, so my to-hit at ranged is decent. if an encounter can be cleared by the meat puppets, i just shoot away, once per round, something scary comes and he casts slow and hastes the party.
I specifically play him in a way that isn't disruptive to the martials, because i'm smart enough to see how not to. My character is also heavily mind effect based, so he sucks against undead.
I had a cleric of urgothoa rolled up, but decided not to invalidate 2/3 of the party.
i'm not gming for a druid or witch :3 that's someone else.
i mean, theoretically they could play those and wreck the other people in the group, but we organize ourselves well, and i'm the only person who knows how to break/(play even) casters, and i'm sure as hell not explaining to someone the proper etiquette in creating undead legions.
also, anytime someone asks me to be a conjuration wizard that summons things, i just say don't do it. and they don't because they understand.
I think we have had the answer for the original question for a while now. The solution is powerful abilities exclusive to martials.
The problem is what form they should take and what exactly they should do.
The easiest way to deal with it without adding or disrupting the game is as feats. The problem with that is that feats are not exclusive. Even with BAB restrictions partial casters can still benefit from them. So we'd have to add something that only martials can get or find away for martial feats to be more exclusive.
Figuring out what they should do is also tricky. We could 'just give them spells' or effectively just give them spells but defeats the point since we have partial casters already. We want martials to be basically superhuman at late levels but so far I have not seen what that means mechnically whether it's permament or temporary stat boosts, self buffing, extreme bonuses on skill checks or what. No one has really responds to the people saying just use Path of War or similar products to instead reiterate the depth and nature of the problem than addressing whether or not these options are actual solutions.
Yes, that seems to be a common suggestion.
It's also a big, big, BIG project, and when you're done, you have hundreds of pages of house rules and you're not really playing Pathfinder anymore - heck, you might not even be able to run a typical 4-man party (fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard) through any of the APs without extensive modification to all the encounters.
At that point, we're talking about a whole new game. Which, by the way, might be really cool!
But I'm more interested in somewhat less sweeping and game-changing fixes that balance the classes against each other AND against the existing body of material Paizo has published. Hopefully, while creating only dozens of pages of house rules. Or less.
I feel the same way. Can we use what's out there to add or substract, but not rewrite.
he started another thread about giving out free mythic tiers should go take a look (easiest through his threads under his profile)
he started another thread about giving out free mythic tiers should go take a look (easiest through his threads under his profile)
And he (well, I) started another thread about removing 7-9th level spells entirely from the game.
Both of those strike me as a possible solution, or partial solution, to reduce the disparity (probably not remove it entirely) that don't require more than a half page of house rules.
Plus there have been a good handful of ideas that I summarized in this thread, a page or two ago.
for prereqs and feats or effects reliant on BAB, qualifying doesn't mean much in PF.
for prereqs and feats or effects reliant on BAB, qualifying doesn't mean much in PF.
Agreed.
Without actually getting the feats, the poor guy is just given more options, even earlier options, but still the same number of actual feats to apply.
All this does is give him some bigger numbers a little sooner. As others have said, the fighter's numbers are not the problem - when it comes to hacking apart a monster that just stands there to be hacked, fighters are good enough.
It's all the rest of the game that fighters (etc.) need help with.
fighters need mounts, rogues need an underground railroad, Brawlers need to be able to run long distance, and gunslingers need a... man... cannon.
I'm not entirely sure of the point you're trying to make here. Are you suggesting that the leader of the Papineau Rebellion really was a hundred feet tall, and did have an ox companion that was "42 axe handles plus a plug of tobacco" across the horns?Because unless that's what you're suggesting, then that's even stronger evidence for what I said -- "Folk tales -- and fantasy -- are not limited by what really happened or could happen."
No - did you actually read the rest of what I wrote? Because I'm not gonna restate it if you didn't. Obviously no one's suggesting he was an actual giant.
That the legend could have sprung up from that rebellion is plausible, but unsubstantiated.
I'd say one thing that might be useful is giving Martial PC's a special 'Battle Level' [I would have said Combat Level but it's the same initials as Caster Level and that could cause confusion.]
This benefit only comes from levels in a martial class [and might only be granted per level up to level 4 in Paladin/Ranger/Bloodrager, after level 4 it might only increase every even level?] and yields a number of benefits appropriate to these classes. Things like re-rolls, additional move actions and AoO's, powerful self-healing [or damage negation], etc.
I would also be tempted to have this value grant some of the baseline bonuses needed to function. Enhancement Bonuses to Attacks and Natural Armor [supplanting the need for +X weapons and an Amulet of Natural Armor] and Resistance Bonus to saves perhaps. +1 every 3 Battle Levels sounds appropriate, capping at +6 at level 18 [or +5 at level 20 for the half-casters IF we were giving them the reduced rate after obtaining casting.]
this may be simple enough of an idea where I might use it. but instead it'll work a bit like mythic tiers. i'll work on it when I get home to see how useful i can make it then make a thread later.
I googled Mage Slayer and came up with these feats. I'm thinking of converting them to Pathfinder.
The additional trigger feat I was looking for was Occult Opportunist, which adds just about every magic trigger (devices, supernal, swift) to the activations for an AoO.
http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization /threads/1123606
The complete build (in 3.5) can be found there. It's a long thread with a lot of commentary and alternate builds, and the most detailed build I ever saw on those boards, for which I'm proud of myself. :)
==Aelryinth
I think we have had the answer for the original question for a while now. The solution is powerful abilities exclusive to martials.
It can certainly be done as Class abilities, just like the Rogue has Rogue Talents, etc. That way, unless you dip a martial class, they're restricted.
There is a problem with "What is a martial class?" when you have hybrids and half-breeds in the system. Just the Fighter? What about archetypes that do grant special perks, while trading out a class feature?
Yes - the system could use a reworking. I don't want my fighter to be able to teleport people somehow. But he certainly should have as many options available per level as a wizard in terms of what he does best: combat. If a wizard has 4 2nd lvl spells, a warrior should have 4 combat options that are over and above his 1st lvl ones.
"But fighters can go all day while wizards use up their resources! That's not fair!"
So wizards need to depend on martials for their safety. Huh - maybe that's not a bad idea...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
While others among us don't have a problem with a Fighter gaining the ability to teleport. But rather than magically teleporting whomever he's touching, his teleportation requires those he's holding be within his Light Load limit, because his teleportation is fundamentally an exponential burst of physical speed that temporarily forces open cracks in space-time.
I don't know if I'm looking for that much chocolate in my peanut butter.
If I wanted space-time-cracking fighters (especially if we're talking about breaking relativity with their run speed), well, then I'd be playing Hero System instead.
(science-nerd joke: "temporarily forces open cracks in space-time" - the bolded bit is ironically irrelevant...)
If we are talking fiction, fighters are usually depicted as force of will beasts that wizards have a hell of a time dominating/holding down/etc.
Here we have them getting +1-3 vs fear only...
Fighters also slash through wizards like butter, dance around a battlefield, are impossible to land a meaningful hit against them unless their opponent is also a fighter and etc.
Wizards on the other hand require to stay still and vulnerable to cast anything that isn't a trivial spell/cantrip.
So switch every single lvl3 spell to a full round
Switch every 4-6 spell to 1 round
And 7+ spells to 2-3 rounds or even 1 minute+
Keep some emergency spells as immediate actions
Devise feat chains that reduce a SINGLE spell's cast time downAnd suddenly we have something more like fiction. Where fighters in high level are required to hold down the fort and protect the wizard and skirmish in the battlefield to lock down archers and what not, to give the caster the time and peace he needs to alter reality and win the battle
This is one of the better ideas, but I don't think it should only be by level. I can see some spells at least (Fireball comes to mind), where the time to cast would decrease with the caster's level.
I can see some spells at least (Fireball comes to mind), where the time to cast would decrease with the caster's level.
Hmmmmm.
Here we are, looking for ways to bring martial characters up to near the level of world-breaking awesomeness that spellcasters enjoy, and here you come along and suggest letting spellcasters automatically learn how to cast their spells as swift (or free?) actions without spending a feat or raising the caster level, or even finding/buying/making a rod to to it more easily but limited times? You're basically giving them unlimited Quicken metamagic rods that don't even require a free hand?
Even if that is only on some spells, well, it's a huge leap in power for the spellcasters. I don't know if there is another thread out there trying to balance the classes by adding power to spellcasters, but it sure isn't this one.
One problem is that, if a Book give Martial Nice Things, it will also give Casters much Nicer Things.
Besides consolidating feat trees and removing pointless prereqs, there also need to be fantastic feats.
Right now, all feats are mundane (or Extra Fantastic Class Feature, if you have one of those because you're a caster/barbarian).
Besides consolidating feat trees and removing pointless prereqs, there also need to be fantastic feats.
Right now, all feats are mundane (or Extra Fantastic Class Feature, if you have one of those because you're a caster/barbarian).
More Scaling Feats?
This approach requires more than JUST making feats scale, otherwise you run into the problem where the Cleric, Druid and Oracle are taking feats intended for Fighters and Rangers and Barbarians, because they can and get a lot of mileage out of the feat slot.More Scaling Feats?Besides consolidating feat trees and removing pointless prereqs, there also need to be fantastic feats.
Right now, all feats are mundane (or Extra Fantastic Class Feature, if you have one of those because you're a caster/barbarian).
True, but like normal rules, if they focus too much on combat, their casting end up suffering to some degree.
And avoinding that problem (Caster taking too many martial feats) would be part of rebuilding the Feats System anyway.
Scaling feats ease the burden of martial builds, but don't allow the martial to do fantastic things, which is one of the goals.
Scaling feats ease the burden of martial builds, but don't allow the martial to do fantastic things, which is one of the goals.
Scaling Fantastic Things Feats?
Sure. Feel like rattling off a few examples?Scaling feats ease the burden of martial builds, but don't allow the martial to do fantastic things, which is one of the goals.Scaling Fantastic Things Feats?
...
Someone asked how to make Martial more Fantastic.
* More Fantastic Abilities.
* Less Unneeded feats chains.
* Less Unneeded Feats Trees.
* Less burdensome prerequisites.
(* Scalling Feats could help with those three. and scaling feats that improve the Fantastic Abilities?)
* Stop requiring feats for things that shouldn't (like tripping with a QuarterStaff, and some switch between Lethal and Nonleathal damage).
* etc...
Feats that do great things, but cost you caster levels if you take them.
Meaning if you have magic, you don't WANT them.
Failing that, feats that work off/synergize with specific class abilities, like Bravery or armor training, so they do one thing for people without them, and something much better for people with them.
Like iron will, improving by +1 per point of Bravery, and such.
==Aelryinth
Feats that do great things, but cost you caster levels if you take them.
Meaning if you have magic, you don't WANT them.
Failing that, feats that work off/synergize with specific class abilities, like Bravery or armor training, so they do one thing for people without them, and something much better for people with them.
Like iron will, improving by +1 per point of Bravery, and such.
==Aelryinth
That too.
On topic (not just about Aelryinth post): a problem that could show up is rule bloat, it is something to take into considerations.
posted this in other thread
so, i'm throwing together a badass tier system(literally decided to call it badass tiers) to give martials an edge, Orfamay if you could share any notes you have it would be welcome.
everyone else that can throw out some mechanics that are top of the line mundane. note: they may have prereqs for certain class abilities, I already have one that makes bravery very much awesome, and a chain to make trapfinding really good.
Fight Through It
Prereq: BT 4
Description: The badass gains fast healing 1. This is not the badass’s ability to heal quickly, but his ability to adjust or otherwise ignore damage that would have killed a non-badass a while ago. This bonus doubles whenever the badass is resting(not moving or performing any task that requires concentration). Even a badass could use a breather before moving on to the next fight.
Aura of Determination
Prereq: Fight Through It, BT 8
Description: The badass’s fast healing from Fight Through It increases to 2, and whenever the badass is resting(not moving or performing any task that requires concentration), this bonus applies to anyone resting with him. Any given character can only gain the benefits of one Aura of Determination as multiple auras do not stack. It’s hard not to try to live up to someone so badass.
Mount
Prereq: -
Description: The badass gains a mount as the cavalier’s class feature by the same name. This ability counts as the mount class feature for prerequisites.
Legendary Mount
Prereq: ability to gain an animal companion or mount
Description: The badass’s mount from their class feature is exceptionally badass at being a mount. It can carry double the amount of riders outside of combat(all people exceeding the normal limit are flat footed and cannot attack until they dismount) and run without ever taking nonlethal damage or ever becoming fatigued. All forms of movement your mount possess improve by 10ft.
Mettle
Prereq: -
Description: If the badass makes a successful Fortitude or Will saving throw against an attack that normally deals an effect on a successful save, she instead is not affected by the spell at all.
Evasion
Prereq: -
Description: If the badass makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage.
Steel Bravery
Prereq: Bravery class feature
Description: The badass may apply their bravery bonus to all Mind Affecting and Illusionary saving throws, not just saving throws against fear.
Magic Finding
Prereq: Trapfinding class feature
Description: The badass may make a perception check instead of a knowledge(arcana) check to identify a spell effect that is in place. The badass’s Trapfinding perception bonus applies to this roll. The badass can dispel magic in a mundane way using their knowledge of magic, as a standard action they can dispel as the spell, using a disable device check in place of a dispel check. You may only counterspell is you threaten the target.
Illusory Finding
Prereq: Magic Finding, BT 10
Description: The badass may make a perception check at -10 to disbelieve an illusion instead of a will saving throw. The badass’s Trapfinding perception bonus applies to this roll. The badass may make a dispel check against this illusion to be able to track the source of the illusion via the small pathways of magic used to control the illusion. On success the badass can see a golden strand between the illusion and it’s caster or source.
Evil Sense
Prereq: detect evil class feature
Description: The badass can detect evil innately. whenever a creature of with an evil aura moves within 30 feet of the badass, the badass receives a mental ping that raises him from sleep but does not otherwise impede concentration. This effect is countered or suppressed by anything that can do such to the Detect evil spell, however it cannot be dispelled.
Militia
Prereq: BT 6
Description: The badass gains a small retinue of faithful individuals who can be summoned to help him in a time of need. He can use this ability 3/month and gains a number of followers equal to half his badass level for one mission. This mission must be explained before they take on the mission. The followers’ level is half the badass tier of the badass, and the followers are of like mind of the badass and will have the same alignment and will likely be the same or similar classes as the badass. These followers aren’t always the same individuals called with each use and may be unique to the situation at hand, and may be replaced with appropriate CR creatures at the GM’s discretion.
Army
Prereq: BT 12
Description: The badass gains the respect of a large force of armed men and women, and can command them on the battlefield. He can use this ability 3/year, as the army is not directly owned by him and simply impressed by his badassery. The Army must be given an objective and will return to it’s normal duties after the army has completed this objective. This force should have a Army challenge rating equal to the badass’s badass tier -2. individual members of this army cannot have a level or CR greater than half the badass’s badass tier. The badass’s army need not be the same army every time and may be unique to the situation at hand.
Always Angry
Prereq: BT 8
Description: the badass chooses one barbarian rage power and gains it’s benefits even while not raging. Any ability that is 1/rage instead becomes 1/hour. Use your Badass tier as your effective barbarian level. you must meet the prerequisites of the rage power in addition to the prerequisite of this badass talent to take a rage power in this manner. This ability can be taken an additional time for every additional 4 badass tiers you gain(2 at BT 12, 3 at BT 16 and 4 at BT 20).
Hate of Magic
Prereq: cannot cast arcane spells
Description: the badass hates arcane magic so intensely it shuns him, gain spell resistance equal to 12+the badass’s tier against arcane spells.
Hate of the Faithful
Prereq: cannot cast divine spells
Description: the badass hates Divine magic so intensely it shuns him, gain spell resistance equal to 12+the badass’s tier against Divine spells.
All Skill
Prereq: 6 ranks in chosen skill
Description: the badass halves the normal amount of time it takes to use a skill check. if the skill check uses less than 1 round to perform decrease it’s required action by 1 step. This talent may be taken multiple times, each time it applies to a different skill.
Such Finesse, wow much dexterity
Prereq: -
Description: choose one weapon that is not affected by weapon finesse. it is now affected by weapon finesse as if it were a light weapon.
Strip the Flesh
Prereq: BT 4
Description: The badass doesn’t need to dodge attacks he can power through them. The badass adds their constitution modifier (instead of their Dexterity modifier) to your Armor Class. This armor bonus counts as an inherent natural armor bonus. The badass therefore only loses their “dexterity” bonus against AC against touch attacks.
My Body is Ready
Prereq: Strip the Flesh, BT 8
Description: The Badass is always ready as his body always has the energy to continue on. The badass adds their constitution modifier (instead of their Dexterity modifier) to their initiative rolls.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You know what depresses me? a High level Magus would get 3 attacks from BAB, an attack off haste (at max BAB), AND can do the cool Greater Bladed dash for another attack at max BAB (so that is 5 attacks with 3 at highest BAB) AND can attack every enemy between him and his primary enemy. I wish regular martials got that cool ability (Greater Bladed Dash is freaking Awesome)
Can you elaborate on exactly what a Badass Tier is? Who gets them at what rate? [Obviously full casters get 0, but other than that we're in the dark.]
Full mundane - classes with no ability to cast spells on a consistent basis are of this tier, they may have spell like abilities or abilities that rely on pools or ki, but cannot prepare or spontaneously cast spells. These classes gain a badass tier every level.
Half-caster - this tier is related to classes that only ever gain up to fourth level spells. these classes count 2 out of every three levels as a badass tier. on the third level you do not gain a badass tier, and as such you gain tiers at 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10… and so on.
⅔ caster - this tier is related to classes that gain up to sixth level spells. these classes only count half their class levels as badass tiers. they gain tiers at level 1, 3, 5, 7, 9… and so on.
full casters - this tier is related to classes that gain up to ninth level spells. this tier is not badass and thusly does not gain badass tiers.
to be clear these abilities shouldn't have direct offensive use, but should possibly mitigate the need for certain magic items. or the reliance on a caster to perform a certain role
also my document has a table and things not relating to badass talents, but you gain a badass talent every even level of badassery.
You know what depresses me? a High level Magus would get 3 attacks from BAB, an attack off haste (at max BAB), AND can do the cool Greater Bladed dash for another attack at max BAB (so that is 5 attacks with 3 at highest BAB) AND can attack every enemy between him and his primary enemy. I wish regular martials got that cool ability (Greater Bladed Dash is freaking Awesome)
i'll make an exception for this.
Slice Through
Prereq: BT 4
Description: The badass can strike a foe and keep moving moving with such elegance or might as to not be opposed along his path. The badass may make a dash as the spell Bladed Dash, except that the effect is Extraordinary and done through skill or force.
Greater Slice Through
Prereq: BT 14, Slice Through
Description: as Slice Through except you may not use the ability as the spell Greater Bladed Dash. The effect is still Extraordinary.
Temporal Sundering
Prereq: BT 12
Description: As a swift action, a badass may attempt to slice back open a tear from a recent teleportation or other effect that links to different locations together (such as a mage’s magnificent mansion or create demiplane). make a dispel check using your BAB instead of your caster level, if successful it creates a gate that lasts for 1+1d4 rounds between the locations.
Perfect Stealth
Prereq: BT 10, stealth 10 ranks
Description: Magical forms of detection much make an opposed caster level check(in place of perception) to detect a stealthed badass. This affects scrying as well as other forms of detection. Success acts as if the badass was under the effect of mind blank.
Perfect Disguise:
Prereq: BT disguise 10 ranks
Description: when disguised, anyone trying to detect your alignment or any auras you may have or scry you must make an opposed caster level check to your disguise skill, if they fail it acts as if you were under the effect undetectable alignment or mind blank.