This happened twice in the last dungeon I put my players through. End result was that they couldn't regain their spells a second time, so they had to retreat from the dungeon and the end boss came out and attacked them instead before they could rest. At that point all of the martials were good to go, but the 2 casters were tapped out, so they retreated. End result, casters almost died, martials killed the BBEG.I do this. It isn't punishment, it is adventuring. The Wizard is out of spells? Damn. How's the fighter doing? Still got a sword? Yup. :DSomething something something I watched a Solar get destroyed in a toe-to-to with a 16th level fighter with absolutely no caster support beyond items. Amazing just how far the Disruptive tree and Step Up will take you...
Want to screw the casters? Put a timer on it.
"But I'm out of X level spells!"
Well, too bad for you!Get rid of the 15min adventure day.
Slam the party with task
After task
After task
Make the caster actually THINK before he drops his high level spells.
PUNISH him for blowing all of his resources early.Yeah, the martial runs the gauntlet while the caster bypasses it. But the martial will run it every time if needed. The caster will cry when he starts losing power.
The only thing the martial needs is a longer adventuring day.
here's the thing, i get to 50% me and the martials start looking for a way to bunker down. they attack I still have spells, but I try to keep the expenditure down, if the BBEG comes then I nova and am fine with the martials dealing with the rest as we clear the place.
bunkering down when at 10% or 25% means they pushed too far before trying to rest.
You would not enjoy my games... the group usually goes to about 2/3 resources expended before looking for a safe place to sleep... sometimes they are forced to expend even more.
That might be why casters aren't seen as...
That's odd. My Bloody Skeletons never seem to run out of sword...
And every day that gives me downtime adds more shrunken items and explosive runes to my reserves. Every passing day past 5th level, my casters only continue to gain endurance at an incredible rate.
but here's the thing when everyone's a wizard the party has so many more options available to the GM and to the party.Here's my point.
A GM's job entails responding to party makeup and build, and building a world full of encounters that can be appropriately dealt with according to that makeup.
Just no.
I'd never allow that group.
If your GM does, fair play to them, but that will never happen at my table.
EDIT: In the event that somehow I did, you can be damn sure I'd be removing a number of spells from the game.
Teleport being the first.
"There's no problem here I can remove spells from the game!"
Really? Please rethink what you just said. Or direct your attention to
The Eight Primary Game Design Fallacies thread, you are committing #5.
Incorrect.
This is not about "Wizard Balance", this is about world-building.
I really don't care that people think wizards are obscenely overpowered. Because a GM should always be able to challenge a PC, regardless of how broken the community thinks that class may be.
I would remove spells like Teleport, because they would not fit in my world.
Notice how I talked about changing the world to suit party design?
stuffYou would not enjoy my games... the group usually goes to about 2/3 resources expended before looking for a safe place to sleep... sometimes they are forced to expend even more.
That might be why casters aren't seen as...
then your martials are pushing at the expense of the group. it's as simple as that. someone stoping right before spent to rest in a hostile environment is really not smart.
then your martials are pushing at the expense of the group. it's as simple as that. someone stoping right before spent to rest in a hostile environment is really not smart.stuffYou would not enjoy my games... the group usually goes to about 2/3 resources expended before looking for a safe place to sleep... sometimes they are forced to expend even more.
That might be why casters aren't seen as...
Anyone could easily argue that your casters are resting at the expense of the group.
Isn't there supposed to be a sense of urgency?
but here's the thing when everyone's a wizard the party has so many more options available to the GM and to the party.Here's my point.
A GM's job entails responding to party makeup and build, and building a world full of encounters that can be appropriately dealt with according to that makeup.
Just no.
I'd never allow that group.
If your GM does, fair play to them, but that will never happen at my table.
EDIT: In the event that somehow I did, you can be damn sure I'd be removing a number of spells from the game.
Teleport being the first.
"There's no problem here I can remove spells from the game!"
Really? Please rethink what you just said. Or direct your attention to
The Eight Primary Game Design Fallacies thread, you are committing #5.Incorrect.
This is not about "Wizard Balance", this is about world-building.
I really don't care that people think wizards are obscenely overpowered. Because a GM should always be able to challenge a PC, regardless of how broken the community thinks that class may be.
I would remove spells like Teleport, because they would not fit in my world.
Notice how I talked about changing the world to suit party design?
"Changing the world to suit party design" is not what you are doing. You are changing the Wizard class who normally gets teleport to not have that spell which is literally the definition of #5.
but here's the thing when everyone's a wizard the party has so many more options available to the GM and to the party.Here's my point.
A GM's job entails responding to party makeup and build, and building a world full of encounters that can be appropriately dealt with according to that makeup.
Just no.
I'd never allow that group.
If your GM does, fair play to them, but that will never happen at my table.
EDIT: In the event that somehow I did, you can be damn sure I'd be removing a number of spells from the game.
Teleport being the first.
"There's no problem here I can remove spells from the game!"
Really? Please rethink what you just said. Or direct your attention to
The Eight Primary Game Design Fallacies thread, you are committing #5.Incorrect.
This is not about "Wizard Balance", this is about world-building.
I really don't care that people think wizards are obscenely overpowered. Because a GM should always be able to challenge a PC, regardless of how broken the community thinks that class may be.
I would remove spells like Teleport, because they would not fit in my world.
Notice how I talked about changing the world to suit party design?
then you aren't arguing a valid point in this discussion. if your point is to ignore the problem, then it is unhelpful.
you recognize that the problem exists but posit that working around the problem solves it. we both know this isn't entirely true, and only makes problems for inexperienced GMs.
"Changing the world to suit party design" is not what you are doing. You are changing the Wizard class who normally gets teleport which is literally the definition of #5.but here's the thing when everyone's a wizard the party has so many more options available to the GM and to the party.Here's my point.
A GM's job entails responding to party makeup and build, and building a world full of encounters that can be appropriately dealt with according to that makeup.
Just no.
I'd never allow that group.
If your GM does, fair play to them, but that will never happen at my table.
EDIT: In the event that somehow I did, you can be damn sure I'd be removing a number of spells from the game.
Teleport being the first.
"There's no problem here I can remove spells from the game!"
Really? Please rethink what you just said. Or direct your attention to
The Eight Primary Game Design Fallacies thread, you are committing #5.Incorrect.
This is not about "Wizard Balance", this is about world-building.
I really don't care that people think wizards are obscenely overpowered. Because a GM should always be able to challenge a PC, regardless of how broken the community thinks that class may be.
I would remove spells like Teleport, because they would not fit in my world.
Notice how I talked about changing the world to suit party design?
Wrong.
I'm changing the world in which that wizard exists.
Removing a toy from existence is not the same as personally approaching the poor defenseless wizard and ripping it from his weeping hands.
Nobody gets it, not you, not the BBEG, Nobody.
It is not a personal attack, for christ's sake.
...This happened twice in the last dungeon I put my players through. End result was that they couldn't regain their spells a second time, so they had to retreat from the dungeon and the end boss came out and attacked them instead before they could rest. At that point all of the martials were good to go, but the 2 casters were tapped out, so they retreated. End result, casters almost died, martials killed the BBEG.I do this. It isn't punishment, it is adventuring. The Wizard is out of spells? Damn. How's the fighter doing? Still got a sword? Yup. :DSomething something something I watched a Solar get destroyed in a toe-to-to with a 16th level fighter with absolutely no caster support beyond items. Amazing just how far the Disruptive tree and Step Up will take you...
Want to screw the casters? Put a timer on it.
"But I'm out of X level spells!"
Well, too bad for you!Get rid of the 15min adventure day.
Slam the party with task
After task
After task
Make the caster actually THINK before he drops his high level spells.
PUNISH him for blowing all of his resources early.Yeah, the martial runs the gauntlet while the caster bypasses it. But the martial will run it every time if needed. The caster will cry when he starts losing power.
The only thing the martial needs is a longer adventuring day.
here's the thing, i get to 50% me and the martials start looking for a way to bunker down. they attack I still have spells, but I try to keep the expenditure down, if the BBEG comes then I nova and am fine with the martials dealing with the rest as we clear the place.
bunkering down when at 10% or 25% means they pushed too far before trying to rest.
You would not enjoy my games... the group usually goes to about 2/3 resources expended before looking for a safe place to sleep... sometimes they are forced to expend even more.
That might be
I LOVE bloody skeletons! Those things are great!
"Changing the world to suit party design" is not what you are doing. You are changing the Wizard class who normally gets teleport which is literally the definition of #5.but here's the thing when everyone's a wizard the party has so many more options available to the GM and to the party.Here's my point.
A GM's job entails responding to party makeup and build, and building a world full of encounters that can be appropriately dealt with according to that makeup.
Just no.
I'd never allow that group.
If your GM does, fair play to them, but that will never happen at my table.
EDIT: In the event that somehow I did, you can be damn sure I'd be removing a number of spells from the game.
Teleport being the first.
"There's no problem here I can remove spells from the game!"
Really? Please rethink what you just said. Or direct your attention to
The Eight Primary Game Design Fallacies thread, you are committing #5.Incorrect.
This is not about "Wizard Balance", this is about world-building.
I really don't care that people think wizards are obscenely overpowered. Because a GM should always be able to challenge a PC, regardless of how broken the community thinks that class may be.
I would remove spells like Teleport, because they would not fit in my world.
Notice how I talked about changing the world to suit party design?
Wrong.
I'm changing the world in which that wizard exists.
Removing a toy from existence is not the same as personally approaching the poor defenseless wizard and ripping it from his weeping hands.
Nobody gets it, not you, not the BBEG, Nobody.
It is not a personal attack, for christ's sake.
Uh... Fallacy #5 is not personal attacks. It doesn't matter how you justify the change either. The fact is Wizards have teleport. In your game you have changed it so they do not. That is Oberoni Fallacy.
then your martials are pushing at the expense of the group. it's as simple as that. someone stoping right before spent to rest in a hostile environment is really not smart.stuffYou would not enjoy my games... the group usually goes to about 2/3 resources expended before looking for a safe place to sleep... sometimes they are forced to expend even more.
That might be why casters aren't seen as...
They don't see it that way. It's always a consensus. Often, teleport is held in reserve, so they know they can get away.
Sometimes they encounter a baddy that can stop teleportation. Uh oh!
Fight ensues. Fighters save the day.
Escape.
Fun.
So, yeah, martials don't get nice things.
That's how it works.
Time to move on and quit complaining about it.
Going back to the closing remark of the OP, I'll move on when all the martial classes are officially reclassified as NPC classes.
Until then, if they are going to be presented as PC options for people to play then they should be able to contribute an equal amount to the overall success as a caster, instead of being the mascot.
So I basically see two major themes in this thread (and other similar threads):
1. There MUST be balance between martials and casters. I'm a martial (or I want to be one) but I can't dominate the universe like a wizard so I suck. The only fair solution is for me to have the same amount of power as a wizard. Or else take it away from wizards so they can't do it either.
2. We don't need no stinking badges balance. A well-designed and well-run game will provide fun and interesting challenges to the whole party in such a way that martials are an important member of the team.
Proponents of these two different themes will NEVER see eye-to-eye because they're arguing two entirely different premises:
a) The first group wants balance to be martial vs. caster. That's the balance they're advocating.
b) The second group wants balance to be party vs. environment. That's the balance they're advocating.
This isn't a case of "apples and oranges". It's more like a case of "apples and shoes". One side is saying "My apple tastes better than your shoe" and the other side is saying "My shoe fits on my foot better than your apple". And they're both right.
I have been tempted to remove Teleport/Plane shift before... those are things that really honk me off.
I haven't taken them out.
But I really want to.
I have in-game solutions for them: the underground parts of the world block any kind of teleportation/dimension door/plane shifty type effects (natural ore), the mountain range splitting the continent has a similar effect.
You can work around it in game without using the banhammer.
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I really don't care that people think wizards are obscenely overpowered. Because a GM should always be able to challenge a PC, regardless of how broken the community thinks that class may be.
As a DM, I'd like to be able to be free to turn more of my attention towards world-building and running the game, and spend a lot less of it working against the rules just to get the game to work.
If you're a good enough DM to do all of the latter and still get some of the former in, just think of how awesome the game would be if you could focus solely on the former? It nearly boggles the mind.
TL;DR: "A good DM can fix this mess" is not a reason for people to pay $50 for a rulebook.
mmmm shoe apples... or maybe apple shoes...
Teleport is and always has been optional.
It was never mandatory and never will be.
Removing teleport removes one spell from a list of thousands.
Wizards do not need it, everyone knows that.
If I was taking Rage from barbarians, you might have a point.
But this is not a defining class feature, but in fact may never come up at all, anyway, if the spell wasn't removed.
That fallacy is nonsense anyway. Nothing would ever change, for any reason, if that were true.
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Proponents of these two different themes will NEVER see eye-to-eye because they're arguing two entirely different premises:
a) The first group wants balance to be martial vs. caster. That's the balance they're advocating.
b) The second group wants balance to be party vs. environment. That's the balance they're advocating.
Not quite. the two arguments are BOTH explicitly based on party vs. environment. The first group argues that, ideally, each character should be able to contribute toward that goal in meaningful ways, regardless of what class they pick (those ways should ideally be different for each class, but they should at least exist). The second group argues that, as long as one person in the group can carry the group through everything, it doesn't matter if no one else can contribute.
then your martials are pushing at the expense of the group. it's as simple as that. someone stoping right before spent to rest in a hostile environment is really not smart.stuffYou would not enjoy my games... the group usually goes to about 2/3 resources expended before looking for a safe place to sleep... sometimes they are forced to expend even more.
That might be why casters aren't seen as...
They don't see it that way. It's always a consensus. Often, teleport is held in reserve, so they know they can get away.
Sometimes they encounter a baddy that can stop teleportation. Uh oh!
Fight ensues. Fighters save the day.
Escape.
Fun.
yes the problem with most people over exerting themselves, is they haven't realized they're overexerting them-self.
this can lead to benign enjoyment before they die.
I really don't care that people think wizards are obscenely overpowered. Because a GM should always be able to challenge a PC, regardless of how broken the community thinks that class may be.
As a DM, I'd like to be able to be free to turn more of my attention towards world-building and running the game, and spend a lot less of it working against the rules just to get the game to work.
If you're a good enough DM to do all of the latter and still get some of the former in, just think of how awesome the game would be if you could focus solely on the former? It nearly boggles the mind.
TL;DR: "A good DM can fix this mess" is not a reason for people to pay $50 for a rulebook.
Replying my support because I'm not allowed to favorite this multiple times. In other words, +1
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TL;DR: "A good DM can fix this mess" is not a reason for people to pay $50 for a rulebook.
It isn't a reason not to buy one either. You have to approach the game like you do Champions. It's a very broad game in the things it includes, but the GM is encouraged to make it work for his group and his style of running the game. Far too many people take the assumption that if it's in the game it has to work for everybody and everybody's style. That is not true and never has been in any form of D&D.
Teleport is and always has been optional.
It was never mandatory and never will be.
Removing teleport removes one spell from a list of thousands.
Wizards do not need it, everyone knows that.
If I was taking Rage from barbarians, you might have a point.
But this is not a defining class feature, but in fact may never come up at all, anyway, if the spell wasn't removed.
That fallacy is nonsense anyway. Nothing would ever change, for any reason, if that were true.
well i mean there IS the teleport school, can i still take that and not cast teleport? but it's like my focus?
i mean we don't need to roll for attacks, but we still do that, perfectly capable of taking 10 on everything.
do we remove animate dead from my cleric of urgathoa?
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Not quite. the two arguments are BOTH explicitly based on party vs. environment. The first group argues that, ideally, each character should be able to contribute toward that goal in meaningful ways, regardless of what class they pick (those ways should ideally be different for each class, but they should at least exist). The second group argues that, as long as one person in the group can carry the group through everything, it doesn't matter if no one else can contribute.Proponents of these two different themes will NEVER see eye-to-eye because they're arguing two entirely different premises:
a) The first group wants balance to be martial vs. caster. That's the balance they're advocating.
b) The second group wants balance to be party vs. environment. That's the balance they're advocating.
I belong to the second group, generally. We don't do individual XP, we just all level when the GM says so, it takes the stress out of contributing.
I've had sessions where my characters contribute virtually nothing to combat except a running commentary and/or cheerleading from the sidelines. Everyone had a good time, no problems.
That being said, the disparity between casters and non-casters is HUGE and has always been present. It seems odd that it has never really been addressed...
I belong to the second group, generally. We don't do individual XP, we just all level when the GM says so, it takes the stress out of contributing.Not quite. the two arguments are BOTH explicitly based on party vs. environment. The first group argues that, ideally, each character should be able to contribute toward that goal in meaningful ways, regardless of what class they pick (those ways should ideally be different for each class, but they should at least exist). The second group argues that, as long as one person in the group can carry the group through everything, it doesn't matter if no one else can contribute.Proponents of these two different themes will NEVER see eye-to-eye because they're arguing two entirely different premises:
a) The first group wants balance to be martial vs. caster. That's the balance they're advocating.
b) The second group wants balance to be party vs. environment. That's the balance they're advocating.
I do the same, else i couldn't easily give exp for charming your way past the bandits or using teleport to get the party places.
Teleport is and always has been optional.
It was never mandatory and never will be.
Removing teleport removes one spell from a list of thousands.
Wizards do not need it, everyone knows that.
If I was taking Rage from barbarians, you might have a point.
But this is not a defining class feature, but in fact may never come up at all, anyway, if the spell wasn't removed.
That fallacy is nonsense anyway. Nothing would ever change, for any reason, if that were true.
well i mean there IS the teleport school, can i still take that and not cast teleport? but it's like my focus?
i mean we don't need to roll for attacks, but we still do that, perfectly capable of taking 10 on everything.
do we remove animate dead from my cleric of urgathoa?
Those wouldn't seem like prudent choices, I would not advise doing any of those things.
Those wouldn't seem like prudent choices, I would not advise doing any of those things.Teleport is and always has been optional.
It was never mandatory and never will be.
Removing teleport removes one spell from a list of thousands.
Wizards do not need it, everyone knows that.
If I was taking Rage from barbarians, you might have a point.
But this is not a defining class feature, but in fact may never come up at all, anyway, if the spell wasn't removed.
That fallacy is nonsense anyway. Nothing would ever change, for any reason, if that were true.
well i mean there IS the teleport school, can i still take that and not cast teleport? but it's like my focus?
i mean we don't need to roll for attacks, but we still do that, perfectly capable of taking 10 on everything.
do we remove animate dead from my cleric of urgathoa?
teleport school is amazing, so is being an necromancer cleric.
#1) wasted skill points on climb, or point buy points on intelligence
#1) Take 10. DC30 to climb paper walls, so if I'm in an oriental style place the most I will ever need in climb is a 20. Fighter or Barbarian has that by around level 10. Lvl 7 or so you can start taking 10 on pretty much any other surface, easily hitting the DC25. Lvl 3 characters can hit the DC20 on most walls.#2) Thus wasting a second level spell, at minimum, that he likely had to prepare for in advance.
#3)I take 10. No generic guard can perceive me, even if they roll nat 20, but they should be taking 10 as well. If I do get found, I bluff past them, also taking 10. I don't even need to spend significant points to climb most walls, as the DCs are pathetic.
#4)And then defensive magic reveals an illusion and transmutation aura and the entire fortress is put on alert. Your plan is fooled by a 1000gp CR1 alarm trap with arcane sight. Not to mention that you have only a handful of minutes unless you recast. I fear skill monkeys more than casters as a GM. The skill monkey can infiltrate days in advance and never get caught.
#5) I had a player poison the food supply. Spent a couple days infiltrating the camp, scouting, and then poisoned the water and food. A couple dead animals will poison a well. Its trivial to sabatoge the karts moving the food. See above where stealth, disguise, and bluff will easily allow you to blend in as a camp follower. Worst case scenario, he ties up all of low level casters in the army. He was way more effective than anything the casters could do, and spent far fewer resources doing it. Decimated the army and destroyed their morale. An army marches on its stomach.
#6) Love how enemy armies never have their own caster support or counters.
Oh no, I spent a couple points on a skill that is highly useful.
#2) if you don't have open spell slots on a prepared caster you're playing them wrong
Sure. Your still wasting slots. At the level a non-caster can do it taking 10, the caster is spending his highest level spell slot.
#3) The guard dogs with scent find you, GG. you can't stealth while climbing walls(or maybe you can if you move 5 feet at a time with double half movement or take penalties to one or both skill checks). I suppose you could several feats and talents later, but then you're costing your overall build in how it deals with a fight. if even one guard finds you in any circumstance, you cannot currently kill him without everyone getting a perception check with a DC of -10 to hear combat...
Why do you even need a feat or tallent? Stealth is part of a movement action. Climb is a movement action. Take 10 on both, since you are not in danger. Auto-succeed the entire time. Congratulations. As for guards, why bother killing them. Disguise yourself as a generic guard. Since your not trying to look like someone else, the DC is low and you can take 20 on it before the mission if you really care, taking about 2 hours. If anyone questions you, bluff is cheap and easy, and you can take 10.
As for guard dogs, you can mostly ignore them. Their scent will only alert them that someone is there. You bluff your way past their handler and you're good to go.
I mean if we're getting into it a simple alarm spell would alert everyone... and then they start taking 20 searching everywhere. if you EVER rely on dim light, all i need is any guards with dark vision or low light vision to completely negate your stealth. hellcat stealth doesn't work in dim light/darkness when the guy has dark vision...
My group allows sense motive to stealth between cover. Pretty obvious use of the skill. Alternatively, you could use bluff to create distractions and move between cover. Technically never alerts the guards, but I find that less believable. The stealth rules really aren't as broken as people think they are.
As for the alarm, they need triggers. Its really easy to set up triggers for things that shouldn't be there, like flying auras. Its hard to set up traps against things that you expect to be there, like guards. Also, its trivial to set it up with some other cheap traps, like glitterdust (2000gp) or Faerie Fire (1000gp). By the time you have players wasting flight and invisibility to get into a place, the BBEGs have the wealth for counters to trivial magic attempts to break in. The mages should have to be more creative, since a simple detect magic will make them glow to any 1st level wizard guard. I really don't understand why everyone always assumes people will only safeguard against non-magical threats.
#4) caster beats caster, this is irrelevant to a martial vs caster disparity discussion
Not when those casters will be beaten by non-magical means.
#5) either the GM was extremely liberal in how easy it was to poison a food supply, or you payed out the nose for decent poison. any decent army has a supply chain, even in the ancient world, so food spoilage wouldn't effect it, this would have to have been poison that lasts days or killed large portions of the army.
It is really easy to ruin grain stores. They explode, if nothing else. Armies require a lot of food, and a means to transport it. Its not hard to slow down an army by having an active sabature who cannot be found out, and by level 10 you can autosucceed every check by taking 10 that a standard encampment can throw at you. As long as you can identify and avoid elites, who will probably stand out intentionally, you are good to go.
As for poison, the rules are patently ridiculous. Anyone with even a basic knowledge of nature can tell you that most plants are poisonous. Hell, hemlock grows rampantly in the wild and looks like a heirloom carrot. You don't even need to kill people to stop the army. Stomach aches and cramps will destroy morale, and if that goes the army is as good as dead. At minimum it wont be marching at full speed, giving time to prepare a counterattack.
teleport school is amazing, so is being an necromancer cleric.Those wouldn't seem like prudent choices, I would not advise doing any of those things.Teleport is and always has been optional.
It was never mandatory and never will be.
Removing teleport removes one spell from a list of thousands.
Wizards do not need it, everyone knows that.
If I was taking Rage from barbarians, you might have a point.
But this is not a defining class feature, but in fact may never come up at all, anyway, if the spell wasn't removed.
That fallacy is nonsense anyway. Nothing would ever change, for any reason, if that were true.
well i mean there IS the teleport school, can i still take that and not cast teleport? but it's like my focus?
i mean we don't need to roll for attacks, but we still do that, perfectly capable of taking 10 on everything.
do we remove animate dead from my cleric of urgathoa?
I meant if the GM banned those spells, it wouldn't be prudent to build a character who would want to use them. :D
Not a fan of teleport school, but totally on board with the necromancer thing. Bloody skeletal T-Rex was used as a very gory motorhome in my last campaign. :D
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I belong to the second group, generally. We don't do individual XP, we just all level when the GM says so, it takes the stress out of contributing.Not quite. the two arguments are BOTH explicitly based on party vs. environment. The first group argues that, ideally, each character should be able to contribute toward that goal in meaningful ways, regardless of what class they pick (those ways should ideally be different for each class, but they should at least exist). The second group argues that, as long as one person in the group can carry the group through everything, it doesn't matter if no one else can contribute.Proponents of these two different themes will NEVER see eye-to-eye because they're arguing two entirely different premises:
a) The first group wants balance to be martial vs. caster. That's the balance they're advocating.
b) The second group wants balance to be party vs. environment. That's the balance they're advocating.
I haven't done individual XP since the 90s. That doesn't mean it's not demoralizing if your entire character is weaker than the druid or summoner's single class feature.
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then your martials are pushing at the expense of the group. it's as simple as that. someone stoping right before spent to rest in a hostile environment is really not smart.stuffYou would not enjoy my games... the group usually goes to about 2/3 resources expended before looking for a safe place to sleep... sometimes they are forced to expend even more.
That might be why casters aren't seen as...
I also need to question how many of the caster resources were burned to help the fighter do his job
I haven't done individual XP since the 90s. That doesn't mean it's not demoralizing if your entire character is weaker than the druid or summoner's single class feature.I belong to the second group, generally. We don't do individual XP, we just all level when the GM says so, it takes the stress out of contributing.Not quite. the two arguments are BOTH explicitly based on party vs. environment. The first group argues that, ideally, each character should be able to contribute toward that goal in meaningful ways, regardless of what class they pick (those ways should ideally be different for each class, but they should at least exist). The second group argues that, as long as one person in the group can carry the group through everything, it doesn't matter if no one else can contribute.Proponents of these two different themes will NEVER see eye-to-eye because they're arguing two entirely different premises:
a) The first group wants balance to be martial vs. caster. That's the balance they're advocating.
b) The second group wants balance to be party vs. environment. That's the balance they're advocating.
I guess I don't care because I'm the guy that can carry the party when needed. There are two of us. The other players just don't mind us being the shining stars we are, because we let them do their roles (my character lets the Rogue scout, even though I have a better score in it, it isn't my place to do it).
I also need to question how many of the caster resources were burned to help the fighter do his jobthen your martials are pushing at the expense of the group. it's as simple as that. someone stoping right before spent to rest in a hostile environment is really not smart.stuffYou would not enjoy my games... the group usually goes to about 2/3 resources expended before looking for a safe place to sleep... sometimes they are forced to expend even more.
That might be why casters aren't seen as...
In my experience, most of our casters buff the non-casters for a couple rounds, then open up with artillery if required.
Seems to work. So usually about 50% of spells cast are buffs/heals.
1)Oh no, I spent a couple points on a skill that is highly useful.2)sure. Your still wasting slots. At the level a non-caster can do it taking 10, the caster is spending his highest level spell slot.
3)Why do you even need a feat or tallent? Stealth is part of a movement action. Climb is a movement action. Take 10 on both, since you are not in danger. Auto-succeed the entire time. Congratulations. As for guards, why bother killing them. Disguise yourself as a generic guard. Since your not trying to look like someone else, the DC is low and you can take 20 on it before the mission if you really care, taking about 2 hours. If anyone questions you, bluff is cheap and easy, and you can take 10.
As for guard dogs, you can mostly ignore them. Their scent will only alert them that someone is there. You bluff your way past their handler and you're good to go.
4)Not when those casters will be beaten by non-magical means.
5)It is really easy to ruin grain stores. They explode, if nothing else. Armies require a lot of food, and a means to transport it. Its not hard to slow down an army by having an active sabature who cannot be found out, and by level 10 you can autosucceed every check by taking 10 that a standard encampment can throw at you. As long as you can identify and avoid elites, who will probably stand out intentionally, you are good to go.
6)As for poison, the rules are patently ridiculous. Anyone with even a basic knowledge of nature can tell you that most plants are poisonous. Hell, hemlock grows rampantly in the wild and looks like a heirloom carrot. You don't even need to kill people to stop the army. Stomach aches and cramps will destroy morale, and if that goes the army is as good as dead. At minimum it wont be marching at full speed, giving time to prepare a counterattack.
1 - morel like spent a ton of skill points on an extremely unuseful skill, in the past year or so I think i've personally done 4 climb checks, all of them low DC of knotted rope on a wall. while GMing (which i do much more of) not a single person has had to roll a climb check.
2 - yes i wasted that thing i can swap out at next breakfast for free. unlike skill point expenditure.
3 - "When a character or creature is not in immediate danger or distracted" trying to stealth while climbing is definitely distracted. stealth i'd prob let take 10, but i was more concerned that you have to move at half speed for stealth and climb at no penalties. meaning you move at 5 ft if you speed is 30, unless you spend feats and talents to move at normal.
on to disguise, you probably want some papers too, to go with your disguise, also probably patrol routes, don;t want to be in the wrong place, else why is a lone guard here, at the very least you'll be reprimanded and you'll need to explain where your post is and why you aren't there, and bluff won't get you passed that.
also, i'm pretty sure the alarm spell, just detect if anything gets within range and then makes a loud noise. so... it counters mundane.
4 - except those were all magic so.... like the caster had to make those...
5 - it sure is a good thing they're not usually stored all in one place, and usually when on the move in several thousand separate protected containers...
6 - see above, low doses won't effect many people, at best you'd contaminate a single water supply. at which point they'll move on to use different ones...
there's a reason food contamination wasn't really a problem except in large city or forts where they stock everything in one area, but even then they protected their water supplies and their food supplies very well.
I also need to question how many of the caster resources were burned to help the fighter do his jobthen your martials are pushing at the expense of the group. it's as simple as that. someone stoping right before spent to rest in a hostile environment is really not smart.stuffYou would not enjoy my games... the group usually goes to about 2/3 resources expended before looking for a safe place to sleep... sometimes they are forced to expend even more.
That might be why casters aren't seen as...
In my experience, most of our casters buff the non-casters for a couple rounds, then open up with artillery if required.
Seems to work. So usually about 50% of spells cast are buffs/heals.
most of our party self buffs... sharing the love with the spells that target multiple people.
In my experience, most of our casters buff the non-casters for a couple rounds, then open up with artillery if required.
Seems to work. So usually about 50% of spells cast are buffs/heals.
That would be because buffing is one of the most powerful things you can do in combat.
Haste is a MASSIVE force multiplier (that non-casters simply don't get).
I think where people get confused on the martial/caster things is one of three places:
1.) They only think in terms of "encounter enders" and what the caster DIRECTLY contributes to combat. Mass Suffocation ends encounter, which is insanely powerful. Yes, it also requires a massive amount of specialization to be reliably effective.
Buffing the beatstick is just as much of an "encounter ender" however. If you have a guy who regularly casts Haste during the tough fights, try playing without him some time. Fights become waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay harder immediately. Then tack on the lack of Heroism or Good Hope or whatever. You're essentially fighting at several CRs lower than usual.
2.) They only think in terms of combat in the first place, and fail to acknowledge that casters can simply do things martial classes CAN'T. Casters can overcome some obstacles martials can't begin to challenge.
3.) They confuse "My martial CAN do this" with "My martial can do this better".
Caineach's laughable statement that Climb is an incredibly useful skill up thread is a good example of this.
Sure, you CAN climb the DC 25 cliff in a rainstorm.
You do it slower, less reliably, and with far more investment than the caster. A single low level spell slot out does your max ranks in Climb.
Those 5/10/15/20 skill points you used are an investment you will rarely see used in play, and an investment you will never get back.
Meanwhile, that single casting of Spider Climb or Fly the Wizard uses (or at high levels, Overland Flight) is an expenditure of a very small part of their daily resources, and for prepared casters, not an investment at all...they can swap it out if need be, or swap it in as needed given a minute.
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TL;DR: "A good DM can fix this mess" is not a reason for people to pay $50 for a rulebook.It isn't a reason not to buy one either. You have to approach the game like you do Champions. It's a very broad game in the things it includes, but the GM is encouraged to make it work for his group and his style of running the game. Far too many people take the assumption that if it's in the game it has to work for everybody and everybody's style. That is not true and never has been in any form of D&D.
There are three major flaws with your argument.
1. Champions/Hero System has a portion of the rule book that explains its philosophy towards game balance. In this section it says explicitly that the system can easily be broken, explains how to do so, explains why not to do so, and gives guidelines rather than hard rules on how to determine if the character you've designed is reasonable. Pathfinder allows for similar excesses, but has no equivalent section explaining its philosophy.
2. Champions/HS does not have nearly as extensive an organized play setup, and if it did I feel certain it would approach organized play rather differently than PFS does.
3. If you're talking about aesthetic preferences then I would agree with you that not every game will be for everyone. Hero System, again, markets itself as a generic system so that there is an assumption that GMs will be determining allowed aesthetic elements within each campaign. Pathfinder and D&D need to stop positioning themselves as the "big tent" game system for all lovers of fantasy, and start making design and marketing decisions that actually plant a flag in some aesthetic soil. 5E has actually done this to a degree. Pathfinder is still all over the place, and refuses to take responsibility for their own schizophrenia. They do not seem sensitive to the obvious argument that the simulation of certain fantasy genres requires one to leave out numerous game elements that PF includes and even emphasizes. You could even make the argument that something as fundamental as wizards as PCs violates the inherent aesthetic laws of the Sword and Sorcery genre. Since D&D was initially conceptualized as a Sword and Sorcery engine, this is a rather serious critique that I don't think anyone has fully dealt with to this day.
Yes, you are free to spend your money on whatever you want. But your subjective experience of enjoying the book does not mean that the money was, in any objective sense, "well spent."
I belong to the second group, generally. We don't do individual XP, we just all level when the GM says so, it takes the stress out of contributing.
This is not about stress, this is about fun. Watching the casters solve all the problems is not fun for a martial, even if he gets the same xp.
Caineach's laughable statement that Climb is an incredibly useful skill up thread is a good example of this.
please, Rynjin, tell me it'll be alright, tell me people don't really think the climb skill is useful to put 10-20 points into it. ;-;
1 - morel like spent a ton of skill points on an extremely unuseful skill, in the past year or so I think i've personally done 4 climb checks, all of them low DC of knotted rope on a wall. while GMing (which i do much more of) not a single person has had to roll a climb check.
My players use it all the time. Guess we will have to agree to disagree.
2 - yes i wasted that thing i can swap out at next breakfast for free. unlike skill point expenditure.
So you just spent 1/3rd of your power to get into the building. The fighter took 10 on a skill check. Sure, that becomes a lower percentage of your power as you level, but it also does for the fighter
3 - "When a character or creature is not in immediate danger or distracted" trying to stealth while climbing is definitely distracted. stealth i'd prob let take 10, but i was more concerned that you have to move at half speed for stealth and climb at no penalties. meaning you move at 5 ft if you speed is 30, unless you spend feats and talents to move at normal.
Why can't you take 10? I probably wouldn't play with you as a GM if you rule like this. It's blatantly not what the rules say. Sure, you only move 5 ft. You can also do it all day.
Sure, you could. Of course bluff, slight of hand, and perception all work well. People, especially guards, are lazy. If something seems good enough, they will let it slide.
on to disguise, you probably want some papers too, to go with your disguise, also probably patrol routes, don;t want to be in the wrong place, else why is a lone guard here, at the very least you'll be reprimanded and you'll need to explain where your post is and why you aren't there, and bluff won't get you passed that.also, i'm pretty sure the alarm spell, just detect if anything gets within range and then makes a loud noise. so... it counters mundane.
4 - except those were all magic so.... like the caster had to make those...
So? They are all things a 3rd level character can do.
5 - it sure is a good thing they're not usually stored all in one place, and usually when on the move in several thousand separate protected containers...
YOU HAVE ALL THE TIME IN THE WORLD BECAUSE NO ONE CAN FIND AND IDENTIFY YOU. YOU DON'T HAVE TO KILL EVERYONE JUST MAKE THEIR LIFE MISSERABLE AND THEY WILL DESERT.
6 - see above, low doses won't effect many people, at best you'd contaminate a single water supply. at which point they'll move on to use different ones...there's a reason food contamination wasn't really a problem except in large city or forts where they stock everything in one area, but even then they protected their water supplies and their food supplies very well.
It also wasn't a problem because getting uncatchable spies into the enemy army wasn't trivial. Real life level cap is 5, and even then you are getting into supernatural feats with skill checks. At level 10 you can have people routinely hitting DC30 skill checks. I would love to see someone climb a paper wall in real life, but my 10th level fighter takes 10 and does it all day long.
Why can nobody find and identify you, exactly?
You're using regular Stealth. A dude with Darkvision or a torch can make your entire Stealth check meaningless if you get too close to them.
This is not about stress, this is about fun. Watching the casters solve all the problems is not fun for a martial, even if he gets the same xp.
I belong to the second group, generally. We don't do individual XP, we just all level when the GM says so, it takes the stress out of contributing.Though martials are still fun to play, or no one would play them-- or at least no one would except as a favor to the group (and if they were really, really weak, it wouldn't even be a favor, because the group would rather not have them as dead weight).
And that's what I'm seeing. Games start with a good mix of martials and casters and end with few martials and many casters. In the end summons, AC/eidolon or cohorts to the bodyguard jobs and all the players want to share the fun of playing capable PCs.