Isn't it time to stop saying "Martials never get nice things"?


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Bandw2 wrote:
when you need to be 10 miles away right now, do you want the barbarian? or the wizard that prepared teleport? that's the real disparity, not who get's to kill whom.

I dream of a game in which you want the fighter, because he shoots up a flare and an entire infantry battalion shows up where you need them, instead of just a wizard teleporting in.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Wait, how is a blinking creature getting through the force effect? Force effects specifically stop ethereal creatures.

Relevant rule

Force effects and abjurations affect an ethereal creature normally. Their effects extend onto the Ethereal Plane from the Material Plane, but not vice versa. An ethereal creature can't attack material creatures, and spells you cast while ethereal affect only other ethereal things. Certain material creatures or objects have attacks or effects that work on the Ethereal Plane.


What has surprised me, and gone against my own experiences, is that so many GMs, as had been posted in other threads, don't have NPC opponents do the smart thing and go after the squishy full arcane casters.

An NPC will see a martial there in medium/heavy armor, no spell component pouch, and the wizard/sorcerer/witch/arcanist in no armor with the pouch: Realistically, and in games I've played, he's going to realize both that (attacking physically) he can damage the squishy more, and that the squishy poses more threat to him and his group.

Just having the NPC's (with reasonable Intelligence/Wisdom anyway) do what is the smart tactic from their end, and the danger to full arcane casters does a lot to balance out other powers.

The only other problem is the way that casters are intentionally made SAD-- but some martial classes are as well (I think no one should be SAD, but that's a flaw in the game that helps others besides casters).

Because of limited uses and the like, I don't think the martial/caster disparity is as big as people think. There is some, but it becomes pretty close to balanced if NPC's intelligently try to go after full casters first.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
when you need to be 10 miles away right now, do you want the barbarian? or the wizard that prepared teleport? that's the real disparity, not who get's to kill whom.
I dream of a game in which you want the fighter, because he shoots up a flare and an entire infantry battalion shows up where you need them, instead of just a wizard teleporting in.

I'm iffy about the old style "automatically get an army as you become badass" class mechanic, but I'd settle for the level 20 dude being able to leap frog his way with 50 feet at a time jumps the whole way or something similar.


Seven League Leap should be a normal Feat or class ability, not a Mythic Power.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
chaoseffect wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
when you need to be 10 miles away right now, do you want the barbarian? or the wizard that prepared teleport? that's the real disparity, not who get's to kill whom.
I dream of a game in which you want the fighter, because he shoots up a flare and an entire infantry battalion shows up where you need them, instead of just a wizard teleporting in.
I'm iffy about the old style "automatically get an army as you become badass" class mechanic, but I'd settle for the level 20 dude being able to leap frog his way with 50 feet at a time jumps the whole way or something similar.

meh, I do, if someone can summon extradimensional critters to eat people's faces, I think a fighter should be able to get some low level mooks together in an army.


Bandw2 wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
when you need to be 10 miles away right now, do you want the barbarian? or the wizard that prepared teleport? that's the real disparity, not who get's to kill whom.
I dream of a game in which you want the fighter, because he shoots up a flare and an entire infantry battalion shows up where you need them, instead of just a wizard teleporting in.
I'm iffy about the old style "automatically get an army as you become badass" class mechanic, but I'd settle for the level 20 dude being able to leap frog his way with 50 feet at a time jumps the whole way or something similar.
meh, I do, if someone can summon extradimensional critters to eat people's faces, I think a fighter should be able to get some low level mooks together in an army.

I mean I don't like it as a core, "all fighters get this" kinda thing. A specialized, fighter only form of Leadership? Totally cool with that. Making it into a base class mechanic? Bleh.


Oly wrote:

What has surprised me, and gone against my own experiences, is that so many GMs, as had been posted in other threads, don't have NPC opponents do the smart thing and go after the squishy full arcane casters.

An NPC will see a martial there in medium/heavy armor, no spell component pouch, and the wizard/sorcerer/witch/arcanist in no armor with the pouch: Realistically, and in games I've played, he's going to realize both that (attacking physically) he can damage the squishy more, and that the squishy poses more threat to him and his group.

Just having the NPC's (with reasonable Intelligence/Wisdom anyway) do what is the smart tactic from their end, and the danger to full arcane casters does a lot to balance out other powers.

The only other problem is the way that casters are intentionally made SAD-- but some martial classes are as well (I think no one should be SAD, but that's a flaw in the game that helps others besides casters).

Because of limited uses and the like, I don't think the martial/caster disparity is as big as people think. There is some, but it becomes pretty close to balanced if NPC's intelligently try to go after full casters first.

Mirror image is like...a staple spell. Works against almost anything at lower levels, and still works against a lot at high levels (and you have plenty of spell slots to spare then). The NPCs will need a couple of rounds popping images before they start to do serious damage to the caster. They don't have a couple of rounds to spend screwing around. Or the caster is a druid or a cleric or something which can actually have superior numbers than most martials with little effort(instead of just better options and ways to circumvent letting the enemy roll entirely).

EDIT:As for this whole "Of course martials are bad and magic wins - why would you expect otherwise" thing...I kind of agree, but I don't think that the system should even attempt to present mundane classes as serious options compared to magic users outside of really low levels. If the fighter, rogue and similar were NPC classes that would be one thing. However, the fighter is next to the druid in the PC classes section, and as such the two classes should actually be reasonably close in terms of viability. Otherwise you are tricking the suckers who thing that the guy with a sword can ever stand up to Pouncy Mc Cat Caster into playing a weaksauce character while the guy who likes nature themed characters gets to run around as a dinosaur summoning dinosaurs from the back of a larger dinosaur.


Rynjin wrote:
Seven League Leap should be a normal Feat or class ability, not a Mythic Power.

A lot of Mythic martial options should have just been options.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

I may look through mythic feats and just make them normal combat or general feats with level requirements that are ignored if you're mythic...

also yes, if i was to redo most classes all of them would get the unchained monk treatment and gain a talent pool of some sort, the fighter and martials would all have some form of mobility or world impact abilities.

Scarab Sages

Snowblind wrote:
Oly wrote:

What has surprised me, and gone against my own experiences, is that so many GMs, as had been posted in other threads, don't have NPC opponents do the smart thing and go after the squishy full arcane casters.

An NPC will see a martial there in medium/heavy armor, no spell component pouch, and the wizard/sorcerer/witch/arcanist in no armor with the pouch: Realistically, and in games I've played, he's going to realize both that (attacking physically) he can damage the squishy more, and that the squishy poses more threat to him and his group.

Just having the NPC's (with reasonable Intelligence/Wisdom anyway) do what is the smart tactic from their end, and the danger to full arcane casters does a lot to balance out other powers.

The only other problem is the way that casters are intentionally made SAD-- but some martial classes are as well (I think no one should be SAD, but that's a flaw in the game that helps others besides casters).

Because of limited uses and the like, I don't think the martial/caster disparity is as big as people think. There is some, but it becomes pretty close to balanced if NPC's intelligently try to go after full casters first.

Mirror image is like...a staple spell. Works against almost anything at lower levels, and still works against a lot at high levels (and you have plenty of spell slots to spare then). The NPCs will need a couple of rounds popping images before they start to do serious damage to the caster. They don't have a couple of rounds to spend screwing around. Or the caster is a druid or a cleric or something which can actually have superior numbers than most martials with little effort(instead of just better options and ways to circumvent letting the enemy roll entirely).

Or they can just free action close their eyes, attack the square you are in, and then free action open then after. This will completely negate mirror images, and a 50% miss chance (or less with blind fight) is much better than dealing with the annoyance of mirror image.

I am amazed more people don't do this as a matter of course.


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DM_Blake wrote:


In Star Wars, Han Solo is a really good "martial", even with a ranged attack, but Luke could defeat him in the blink of an eye even after training with Ben Kenobi for only the length of a single trip from Tatooine to Alderaan (where Luke learned to deflect blasters with the Force).

You know, I hear people mention Jedi a lot in these sorts of threads, and it makes me wonder if they've really thought the comparison out.

The Jedi (and Sith) focus primarily on their lightsaber duels. That's what we regard as "awesome" about them. Sure, their reflexes and stuff are enhanced by the midichlorians, blah blah blah, but that's all flavor text for things lots of action movies would just handwave because it looks cool. Jedi are martials with some spell-like abilities. Luke hardly ever uses the Force, save for the odd enchantment effect (only on the weak-minded) or a bit of telekinetics. Basically, he's a monk with one or two levels in sorcerer psychic.

With the exception of Yoda and Palpatine (and one scene where Darth Vader deflected blaster shots with his hand), the "martial" aspect of the force-users is always the side that ends battles (hell, Palpatine was undone with a grapple check). I could easily argue that Mace Windu, Obi-Wan, Darth Maul and Luke are great examples of martials done right—sure, the monks have a few showy magic tricks, but they're always melee fighters first and foremost. Why can't paladins and fighters get some of that action? ;D


DM Blake wrote:
Isn't it time to stop saying "Martials never get nice things"?

It was always a silly thing to say because people use "martial" to mean "no magic", and "nice things" to mean "magic".

What they are really saying is "Why can't characters who don't get magic, get magic."

There are loads of great things full BAB and non-casting characters can get. Many of them simulate the effects of spells. They are good abilities that produce good effects against CR appropriate foes. The problem is that some people see the game-breakingly powerful spells and abilities (crafting) that full casters get (especially wizards), and see that as the baseline for power in the game. They won't be happy until every character can solo one-shot an APL+3 encounter without breaking a sweat. I'm very glad that Paizo doesn't use The-Biggest-Rocket-Propelled-Grenade as the basis for game design.

Fix the broken wizard, don't break the rest of the game.


Imbicatus wrote:

Or they can just free action close their eyes, attack the square you are in, and then free action open then after. This will completely negate mirror images, and a 50% miss chance (or less with blind fight) is much better than dealing with the annoyance of mirror image.

I am amazed more people don't do this as a matter of course.

I imagine they have DMs who thought it unfair to the caster that a second level spell could be "defeated" by taking a self imposed, yet potentially less severe, penalty. After all, martials can't have nice things, or things in general.


Imbicatus wrote:
Snowblind wrote:
Oly wrote:

What has surprised me, and gone against my own experiences, is that so many GMs, as had been posted in other threads, don't have NPC opponents do the smart thing and go after the squishy full arcane casters.

An NPC will see a martial there in medium/heavy armor, no spell component pouch, and the wizard/sorcerer/witch/arcanist in no armor with the pouch: Realistically, and in games I've played, he's going to realize both that (attacking physically) he can damage the squishy more, and that the squishy poses more threat to him and his group.

Just having the NPC's (with reasonable Intelligence/Wisdom anyway) do what is the smart tactic from their end, and the danger to full arcane casters does a lot to balance out other powers.

The only other problem is the way that casters are intentionally made SAD-- but some martial classes are as well (I think no one should be SAD, but that's a flaw in the game that helps others besides casters).

Because of limited uses and the like, I don't think the martial/caster disparity is as big as people think. There is some, but it becomes pretty close to balanced if NPC's intelligently try to go after full casters first.

Mirror image is like...a staple spell. Works against almost anything at lower levels, and still works against a lot at high levels (and you have plenty of spell slots to spare then). The NPCs will need a couple of rounds popping images before they start to do serious damage to the caster. They don't have a couple of rounds to spend screwing around. Or the caster is a druid or a cleric or something which can actually have superior numbers than most martials with little effort(instead of just better options and ways to circumvent letting the enemy roll entirely).
Or they can just free action close their eyes, attack the square you are in, and then free action open then after. This will completely negate mirror images, and a 50% miss chance (or less with blind fight) is much better...

This kind of just reinforces the point.

You have to use blatant rules cheesing to PARTIALLY CIRCUMVENT a 2nd level spell.


Imbicatus wrote:


Or they can just free action close their eyes, attack the square you are in,

Yes, this is an intelligent tactic.

Imbicatus wrote:
and then free action open then after.

Yes, this is cheating. No. If you close your eyes for the duration of your turn, you're flat-footed for the round. Turns are simultaneous. Take the good with the bad, or get Blind-Fight.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:


In Star Wars, Han Solo is a really good "martial", even with a ranged attack, but Luke could defeat him in the blink of an eye even after training with Ben Kenobi for only the length of a single trip from Tatooine to Alderaan (where Luke learned to deflect blasters with the Force).

You know, I hear people mention Jedi a lot in these sorts of threads, and it makes me wonder if they've really thought the comparison out.

The Jedi (and Sith) focus primarily on their lightsaber duels. That's what we regard as "awesome" about them. Sure, their reflexes and stuff are enhanced by the midichlorians, blah blah blah, but that's all flavor text for things lots of action movies would just handwave because it looks cool. Jedi are martials with some spell-like abilities. Luke hardly ever uses the Force, save for the odd enchantment effect (only on the weak-minded) or a bit of telekinetics. Basically, he's a monk with one or two levels in sorcerer psychic.

With the exception of Yoda and Palpatine (and one scene where Darth Vader deflected blaster shots with his hand), the "martial" aspect of the force-users is always the side that ends battles (hell, Palpatine was undone with a grapple check). I could easily argue that Mace Windu, Obi-Wan, Darth Maul and Luke are great examples of martials done right—sure, the monks have a few showy magic tricks, but they're always melee fighters first and foremost. Why can't paladins and fighters get some of that action? ;D

I felt like saying this earlier but i didn't want to go into it that much with teh rest of what was happening.

good show!


Fergie wrote:
There are loads of great things full BAB and non-casting characters can get. Many of them simulate the effects of spells. They are good abilities that produce good effects against CR appropriate foes.

Could your provide some examples? Off the top of my head the only thing that comes to mind is something like the new skill boosts that makes Bluff work like Suggestion (a 2nd or 3rd level spell depending on spell list) except with first level caster duration 1/day per person. At level 20.


Imbicatus wrote:
Snowblind wrote:
Oly wrote:

What has surprised me, and gone against my own experiences, is that so many GMs, as had been posted in other threads, don't have NPC opponents do the smart thing and go after the squishy full arcane casters.

An NPC will see a martial there in medium/heavy armor, no spell component pouch, and the wizard/sorcerer/witch/arcanist in no armor with the pouch: Realistically, and in games I've played, he's going to realize both that (attacking physically) he can damage the squishy more, and that the squishy poses more threat to him and his group.

Just having the NPC's (with reasonable Intelligence/Wisdom anyway) do what is the smart tactic from their end, and the danger to full arcane casters does a lot to balance out other powers.

The only other problem is the way that casters are intentionally made SAD-- but some martial classes are as well (I think no one should be SAD, but that's a flaw in the game that helps others besides casters).

Because of limited uses and the like, I don't think the martial/caster disparity is as big as people think. There is some, but it becomes pretty close to balanced if NPC's intelligently try to go after full casters first.

Mirror image is like...a staple spell. Works against almost anything at lower levels, and still works against a lot at high levels (and you have plenty of spell slots to spare then). The NPCs will need a couple of rounds popping images before they start to do serious damage to the caster. They don't have a couple of rounds to spend screwing around. Or the caster is a druid or a cleric or something which can actually have superior numbers than most martials with little effort(instead of just better options and ways to circumvent letting the enemy roll entirely).
Or they can just free action close their eyes, attack the square you are in, and then free action open then after. This will completely negate mirror images, and a 50% miss chance (or less with blind fight) is much better...

Yeah...unless you have blindfight you are still chopping off half of your damage. I mean, with blindfight it's a pretty decent tactic, but losing half of your hits is really nasty. You are still not killing the wizard quickly. Plus you have to swing at the images for AoOs, so that makes the wizard nearly immune to a whole bunch of anti-caster tactics. The wizard can also just move action back up, denying you your full attacks, giving you just one attack with a 50% miss chance after AC, and another as an AoO against his ablative armor AKA mirror image. There goes a huge amount of damage. You still aren't killing the wizard quickly.


chaoseffect wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
when you need to be 10 miles away right now, do you want the barbarian? or the wizard that prepared teleport? that's the real disparity, not who get's to kill whom.
I dream of a game in which you want the fighter, because he shoots up a flare and an entire infantry battalion shows up where you need them, instead of just a wizard teleporting in.
I'm iffy about the old style "automatically get an army as you become badass" class mechanic, but I'd settle for the level 20 dude being able to leap frog his way with 50 feet at a time jumps the whole way or something similar.

There's a comic where a cop clocks the Hulk hurrying somewhere at 475mph. That's a bit over a minute to get ten miles.

He's also not the fastest superhero on the planet.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Fergie wrote:
DM Blake wrote:
Isn't it time to stop saying "Martials never get nice things"?

It was always a silly thing to say because people use "martial" to mean "no magic", and "nice things" to mean "magic".

What they are really saying is "Why can't characters who don't get magic, get magic."

There are loads of great things full BAB and non-casting characters can get. Many of them simulate the effects of spells. They are good abilities that produce good effects against CR appropriate foes. The problem is that some people see the game-breakingly powerful spells and abilities (crafting) that full casters get (especially wizards), and see that as the baseline for power in the game. They won't be happy until every character can solo one-shot an APL+3 encounter without breaking a sweat. I'm very glad that Paizo doesn't use The-Biggest-Rocket-Propelled-Grenade as the basis for game design.

Fix the broken wizard, don't break the rest of the game.

not true, as mentioned, the disparity is between the abilities capable of changing a story. a wizard can teleport and warn of an impending invasion, the martials simply have to walk back. If they say had a class choice to gain some kind of extra quick mount or other ability (maybe a rogue can have trained pidgeons to move items or messages about) to effect world changing plots.


Bandw2 wrote:
Tormsskull wrote:

Its too bad this game wasn't designed with someone running it who's goal was to make sure everyone had fun. That person could make sure that both casters and martials both faced challenges that the other couldn't easily handle. Someone with the freedom to create situations on the fly for the enjoyment of the other players.

Too bad...

yeah like that guy who makes PvP never happen yet we constantly get into battles of who can kill whom the fastest. sure a martial maybe can 1HKO a caster. but when an army comes the caster can just bombard the army, cast illusions to disrupt the army (like false orders and the such), charm or dominate the enemy leaders. barbar just kill things.

So, on the whole army topic, I figured out what a fight between a max-level wizard with expected PC wealth levels and an army of one thousand level 8 well-equipped fighters (slightly better than city guard captains) would look like. Now, CR-wise that should be a total wipe against the wizard, considering how adding just a few extra of one creature scales up the encounter in almost geometic progression. Sixteen of the guys should be a CR 16 encounter, and this is almost two orders of magnitude more than that. For this contest, I'm assuming no morale checks or leadership is necessary. Using just the basics, here's what I came up with:

One level 20 wizard PC: Army Challenge Rating (ACR) 12
*Total of 42 hit points (3.5 * 12).
*Magical weapons and armor (bracers of armor) for +2 OM and +2 DV.
*Has spellcasting ability for +9 OM and +9 DV.
*Adjusted values of 23 OM, 33 DV, and 42 hit points.

One-thousand elite level 8 fighters: Army Challenge rating (ACR) 14
*Total of 77 hit points (5.5 * 14).
*Magical weapons and armor for +2 OM and +2 DV.
*Has weapon specialization (1/combat +2 to OM).
*Adjusted values of 16 OM, 26 DV, and 77 hit points.

So, the wizard has significantly higher offense and defense than the thousand battle-hardened soldiers. Considering how the seven point OM/DV difference translates directly into damage done and damage avoided, the wizard is almost certain to win this encounter unless they roll REALLY badly on the dice and/or the fighters roll amazing. Keep in mind, it's very easy to pick up spells on the way to level 20 that could give the wizard the darkvision, flight, invisibility, ranged attacks, and significant defenses army abilities as well. Now, while this might not be the most realistic representation of how such a fight would actually go, it's the way the designers think it SHOULD go. Reverse engineering this logic, it's apparently how they think it should go in normal combat as well.

And people wonder why the "caster/martial disparity" theme won't go away and why some of us don't accept that the responsibility for balancing these factors shouldn't be entirely on the GM.

Sovereign Court

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DM_Blake wrote:

For another analogy, it's kind of like NFL Football. The quarterback gets all the glory for his air attack, but it's those "martials" on the front line who make it possible - without them, without his team, the quarterback won't get much done on his own.

That's the role of "martials" in the real world, in literature, in games, everywhere. With very few exceptions.

I don't think it's the job of the Pathfinder devs to make Martials equal to mages, but it should be their job to make sure there are adequate challenges to justify (and be grateful for) having a martial on the adventuring team.

That actually would make it so that the martial/caster thing didn't bother me. Unfortunately - it doesn't currently work that way. The easiest solution would be three-part.

1. Get rid of things which allow casters to replace martials. Getting rid of the huge self-buffs/polymorphing and summoning monsters would probably do it.

2. Get rid of long-term/immediate action defenses.

3. Make casters vulnerable when casting. Make it so that all of the best spells take at least a full round action to cast; even 3+ rounds wouldn't bother me for some.

These three things together would make it so that casters still pull out all of the craziness that they currently do - but they'd be reliant upon their blockers/martials to keep them safe while they do it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

Agreed! Martials DO get nice things! Specially the Magus, Warpriest, Bard and Inquisitor! Oops!

Really now, Martial have great many thing, but at specific characters ideas and specific builds - although a vanilla fighter with stamina and the other new goodies can have very nice things. But spellcasters get nicer things and easier.


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Martial do get nice things!

They are called bow and guns.

The problem is that martial rings melee in people heads.
The only remotely useful melee martial in the whole system is the barbarian with beast totem, because he can apply a full attacks and move.

Scarab Sages

chaoseffect wrote:
Fergie wrote:
There are loads of great things full BAB and non-casting characters can get. Many of them simulate the effects of spells. They are good abilities that produce good effects against CR appropriate foes.
Could your provide some examples? Off the top of my head the only thing that comes to mind is something like the new skill boosts that makes Bluff work like Suggestion (a 2nd or 3rd level spell depending on spell list) except with first level caster duration 1/day per person. At level 20.

Most of them are Barbarian Rage powers and SU.

Elemental Blood (air): Fly 60 when in a rage.
Spirit Totem: Ghosts surround you and do automatic negative energy damage.
Spell Sunder: Hit magic so hard you dispell it.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Laiho Vanallo wrote:

Martial do get nice things!

They are called bow and guns.

The problem is that martial rings melee in people heads.
The only remotely useful melee martial in the whole system is the barbarian with beast totem, because he can apply a full attacks and move.

once again the issue is that the fighter has to walk 10 miles and a wizard can teleport. a wizard can change a campaigns trajectory, while a martial cannot.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:

1. Get rid of things which allow casters to replace martials. Getting rid of the huge self-buffs/polymorphing and summoning monsters would probably do it.

2. Get rid of long-term/immediate action defenses.

3. Make casters vulnerable when casting. Make it so that all of the best spells take at least a full round action to cast; even 3+ rounds wouldn't bother me for some.

These three things together would make it so that casters still pull out all of the craziness that they currently do - but they'd be reliant upon their blockers/martials to keep them safe while they do it.

1 and 2 I can see to some extent, but 3? Combat takes forever in Pathfinder already and you suggest telling someone that since they are currently casting a spell they might as well go home for the night as they won't get an action for the next hour or two? That's definitely not what you meant, but it would undoubtedly be a side effect.

Overall I think you are going in the wrong direction. I would rather see martials elevated, perhaps not by getting the ability to Teleport all willy nilly or create their own demiplanes, but getting more, superhuman-esque abilities. As much as I dislike the disparity and some spells shouldn't have been printed, I wouldn't want to see casters in general cut down at the knees.


Imbicatus wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
Fergie wrote:
There are loads of great things full BAB and non-casting characters can get. Many of them simulate the effects of spells. They are good abilities that produce good effects against CR appropriate foes.
Could your provide some examples? Off the top of my head the only thing that comes to mind is something like the new skill boosts that makes Bluff work like Suggestion (a 2nd or 3rd level spell depending on spell list) except with first level caster duration 1/day per person. At level 20.

Most of them are Barbarian Rage powers and SU.

Elemental Blood (air): Fly 60 when in a rage.
Spirit Totem: Ghosts surround you and do automatic negative energy damage.
Spell Sunder: Hit magic so hard you dispell it.

Strangely enough Barbarian is widely considered to be the one martial who does get nice things. I thought the person I was quoting meant besides the Barbarian.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:


In Star Wars, Han Solo is a really good "martial", even with a ranged attack, but Luke could defeat him in the blink of an eye even after training with Ben Kenobi for only the length of a single trip from Tatooine to Alderaan (where Luke learned to deflect blasters with the Force).

You know, I hear people mention Jedi a lot in these sorts of threads, and it makes me wonder if they've really thought the comparison out.

The Jedi (and Sith) focus primarily on their lightsaber duels. That's what we regard as "awesome" about them. Sure, their reflexes and stuff are enhanced by the midichlorians, blah blah blah, but that's all flavor text for things lots of action movies would just handwave because it looks cool. Jedi are martials with some spell-like abilities. Luke hardly ever uses the Force, save for the odd enchantment effect (only on the weak-minded) or a bit of telekinetics. Basically, he's a monk with one or two levels in sorcerer psychic.

With the exception of Yoda and Palpatine (and one scene where Darth Vader deflected blaster shots with his hand), the "martial" aspect of the force-users is always the side that ends battles (hell, Palpatine was undone with a grapple check). I could easily argue that Mace Windu, Obi-Wan, Darth Maul and Luke are great examples of martials done right—sure, the monks have a few showy magic tricks, but they're always melee fighters first and foremost. Why can't paladins and fighters get some of that action? ;D

This X1000

Just look at any medium to high powered fantasy and you see the martials being awesome. At best, they are some hybrid gish, but they almost always favor the martial aspects. The fact that they are more or less impossible to build in d&d style games is one reason why I'm looking at other systems.


chaoseffect wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:

1. Get rid of things which allow casters to replace martials. Getting rid of the huge self-buffs/polymorphing and summoning monsters would probably do it.

2. Get rid of long-term/immediate action defenses.

3. Make casters vulnerable when casting. Make it so that all of the best spells take at least a full round action to cast; even 3+ rounds wouldn't bother me for some.

These three things together would make it so that casters still pull out all of the craziness that they currently do - but they'd be reliant upon their blockers/martials to keep them safe while they do it.

1 and 2 I can see to some extent, but 3? Combat takes forever in Pathfinder already and you suggest telling someone that since they are currently casting a spell they might as well go home for the night as they won't get an action for the next hour or two? That's definitely not what you meant, but it would undoubtedly be a side effect.

Overall I think you are going in the wrong direction. I would rather see martials elevated, perhaps not by getting the ability to Teleport all willy nilly or create their own demiplanes, but getting more, superhuman-esque abilities. As much as I dislike the disparity and some spells shouldn't have been printed, I wouldn't want to see casters in general cut down at the knees.

Obviously you have never played Exalted.


Caineach wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:

1. Get rid of things which allow casters to replace martials. Getting rid of the huge self-buffs/polymorphing and summoning monsters would probably do it.

2. Get rid of long-term/immediate action defenses.

3. Make casters vulnerable when casting. Make it so that all of the best spells take at least a full round action to cast; even 3+ rounds wouldn't bother me for some.

These three things together would make it so that casters still pull out all of the craziness that they currently do - but they'd be reliant upon their blockers/martials to keep them safe while they do it.

1 and 2 I can see to some extent, but 3? Combat takes forever in Pathfinder already and you suggest telling someone that since they are currently casting a spell they might as well go home for the night as they won't get an action for the next hour or two? That's definitely not what you meant, but it would undoubtedly be a side effect.

Overall I think you are going in the wrong direction. I would rather see martials elevated, perhaps not by getting the ability to Teleport all willy nilly or create their own demiplanes, but getting more, superhuman-esque abilities. As much as I dislike the disparity and some spells shouldn't have been printed, I wouldn't want to see casters in general cut down at the knees.

Obviously you have never played Exalted.

I'm not sure what you are implying, but I have played Exalted. Loved the setting, hated the system. Combat took days there too.


Bandw2 wrote:

not true, as mentioned, the disparity is between the abilities capable of changing a story. a wizard can teleport and warn of an impending invasion, the martials simply have to walk back. If they say had a class choice to gain some kind of extra quick mount or other ability (maybe a rogue can have trained pidgeons to move items or messages about) to effect world changing plots.

Now, that part is true. Magic is fun, because of out of combat uses. When I started playing some time back, I was more thinking about survivability and gravitated toward martials.

I've come to see magic as more fun, and am much more likely to play casters now.

But because those I've played with (including when I GM) have intelligent NPC's usually target those easily identifiable as casters, I certainly feel more vulnerable when playing arcane casters (divine casters are less vulnerable, but that's balanced by making their spells weaker than arcane spells). I've died as casters (and eventually been resurrected), and never died in combat as a martial.

Maybe I need to use Mirror Image more, but I think people are ignoring relative danger, partially because many GM's don't have intelligent NPC's target the squishies.

As far as fun, to me that's the tradeoff: Less danger (as a martial) for less cool stuff vs. the opposite. And if you think casters are both very much stronger characters and (really to the point) more fun to play, then just play them....


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Doomed Hero wrote:

In Pathfinder, unlimited wealth + crafting skills is the most powerful thing in the game. Doesn't really matter what class you are if you have time, but wizards and witches do it fastest.

A friend and I tried it once, just to have some fun.

** spoiler omitted **...

And what DM would allow all that to just happen?


chaoseffect wrote:
Caineach wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:

1. Get rid of things which allow casters to replace martials. Getting rid of the huge self-buffs/polymorphing and summoning monsters would probably do it.

2. Get rid of long-term/immediate action defenses.

3. Make casters vulnerable when casting. Make it so that all of the best spells take at least a full round action to cast; even 3+ rounds wouldn't bother me for some.

These three things together would make it so that casters still pull out all of the craziness that they currently do - but they'd be reliant upon their blockers/martials to keep them safe while they do it.

1 and 2 I can see to some extent, but 3? Combat takes forever in Pathfinder already and you suggest telling someone that since they are currently casting a spell they might as well go home for the night as they won't get an action for the next hour or two? That's definitely not what you meant, but it would undoubtedly be a side effect.

Overall I think you are going in the wrong direction. I would rather see martials elevated, perhaps not by getting the ability to Teleport all willy nilly or create their own demiplanes, but getting more, superhuman-esque abilities. As much as I dislike the disparity and some spells shouldn't have been printed, I wouldn't want to see casters in general cut down at the knees.

Obviously you have never played Exalted.
I'm not sure what you are implying, but I have played Exalted. Loved the setting, hated the system. Combat took days there too.

Its a system that has a lot of people who love it. High powered moves can also last all combat. I had a friend build a character that his first action every combat was to start charging, and then he could be 4 hours before his next turn because it cost so many initiative ticks. When he finally finished charging, he demolished anything that was left. He loved that character, and the system.

Sovereign Court

chaoseffect wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:

1. Get rid of things which allow casters to replace martials. Getting rid of the huge self-buffs/polymorphing and summoning monsters would probably do it.

2. Get rid of long-term/immediate action defenses.

3. Make casters vulnerable when casting. Make it so that all of the best spells take at least a full round action to cast; even 3+ rounds wouldn't bother me for some.

These three things together would make it so that casters still pull out all of the craziness that they currently do - but they'd be reliant upon their blockers/martials to keep them safe while they do it.

1 and 2 I can see to some extent, but 3? Combat takes forever in Pathfinder already and you suggest telling someone that since they are currently casting a spell they might as well go home for the night as they won't get an action for the next hour or two? That's definitely not what you meant, but it would undoubtedly be a side effect.

Most would just be a full round so that the enemy would have a round to try to disrupt the spell - lesser spells not even that. But Teleport, Plane Shift, and other spells which are easy escapes? High level spells which dominate the battlefield? At least 2 rounds, though in a few cases 3+ wouldn't bother me. (They would be the exception, not the rule.)

As to combat rounds taking so long - much of that is the spell-casting on both sides, and the rounds would be given up by both sides, speeding up each round.

It would also have the secondary benefit of making dispelling viable - as with a spellcraft check you'd know what they're planning to cast and, if you have the spell, you know if you can counter it.


Caineach wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
Caineach wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:

1. Get rid of things which allow casters to replace martials. Getting rid of the huge self-buffs/polymorphing and summoning monsters would probably do it.

2. Get rid of long-term/immediate action defenses.

3. Make casters vulnerable when casting. Make it so that all of the best spells take at least a full round action to cast; even 3+ rounds wouldn't bother me for some.

These three things together would make it so that casters still pull out all of the craziness that they currently do - but they'd be reliant upon their blockers/martials to keep them safe while they do it.

1 and 2 I can see to some extent, but 3? Combat takes forever in Pathfinder already and you suggest telling someone that since they are currently casting a spell they might as well go home for the night as they won't get an action for the next hour or two? That's definitely not what you meant, but it would undoubtedly be a side effect.

Overall I think you are going in the wrong direction. I would rather see martials elevated, perhaps not by getting the ability to Teleport all willy nilly or create their own demiplanes, but getting more, superhuman-esque abilities. As much as I dislike the disparity and some spells shouldn't have been printed, I wouldn't want to see casters in general cut down at the knees.

Obviously you have never played Exalted.
I'm not sure what you are implying, but I have played Exalted. Loved the setting, hated the system. Combat took days there too.
Its a system that has a lot of people who love it. High powered moves can also last all combat. I had a friend build a character that his first action every combat was to start charging, and then he could be 4 hours before his next turn because it cost so many initiative ticks. When he finally finished charging, he demolished anything that was left. He loved that character, and the system.

I think your friend might be in the minority there, but perhaps I'm wrong. I know I have much less fun if my entire contribution for several hours would be to just say "I cast X" and then wait for it to trigger, maybe go home take a nap, get some dinner, come back, wait some more, and then get to hear about how the big bad made his save.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Oly wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:

not true, as mentioned, the disparity is between the abilities capable of changing a story. a wizard can teleport and warn of an impending invasion, the martials simply have to walk back. If they say had a class choice to gain some kind of extra quick mount or other ability (maybe a rogue can have trained pidgeons to move items or messages about) to effect world changing plots.

Now, that part is true. Magic is fun, because of out of combat uses. When I started playing some time back, I was more thinking about survivability and gravitated toward martials.

I've come to see magic as more fun, and am much more likely to play casters now.

But because those I've played with (including when I GM) have intelligent NPC's usually target those easily identifiable as casters, I certainly feel more vulnerable when playing arcane casters (divine casters are less vulnerable, but that's balanced by making their spells weaker than arcane spells). I've died as casters (and eventually been resurrected), and never died in combat as a martial.

Maybe I need to use Mirror Image more, but I think people are ignoring relative danger, partially because many GM's don't have intelligent NPC's target the squishies.

As far as fun, to me that's the tradeoff: Less danger (as a martial) for less cool stuff vs. the opposite. And if you think casters are both very much stronger characters and (really to the point) more fun to play, then just play them....

I find a lot of people also don't bother to look at what percentage of their resources they are spending just to stay alive. They talk about having mirror image up, but that takes a turn to activate, wont even last you a full combat, and spends a spell slot. That's not something you want to invest in before about 7th level, and even then you can't rely on it every time.


While we're at it, why don't we stop saying water is wet and fire burns. And that Nickleback sucks.


chaoseffect wrote:


Could your provide some examples? Off the top of my head the only thing that comes to mind is something like the new skill boosts that makes Bluff work like Suggestion (a 2nd or 3rd level spell depending on spell list) except with first level caster duration 1/day per person. At level 20.

There are several debuff effects such as dazzling display, and various ways to induce fear and even things like sickness from rogue talents and such. (Ravingdork made a cool debuff rogue build, I encourage you to check out.) If you go through the various rogue talents, barbarian rage powers, fighter feats, and martial class archetypes, there are dozens of things martials can do that most people consider the domain of the caster. If you include paladins and rangers as martials, the list gets even bigger.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Most would just be a full round so that the enemy would have a round to try to disrupt the spell - lesser spells not even that. But Teleport, Plane Shift, and other spells which are easy escapes? High level spells which dominate the battlefield? At least 2 rounds, though in a few cases 3+ wouldn't bother me. (They would be the exception, not the rule.)

As to combat rounds taking so long - much of that is the spell-casting on both sides, and the rounds would be given up by both sides, speeding up each round.

It would also have the secondary benefit of making dispelling viable - as with a spellcraft check you'd know what they're planning to cast and, if you have the spell, you know if you can counter it.

Giving prohibitive casting times to travel spells seems solid, as does having more spells with 1 round cast durations. No problem there. I took you original post to mean the vast majority of spells having multiple round wind up times.

As far as combat taking forever, there's a lot of factors there that make it so even without lots of magic being thrown around. I still think that 3+ rounds to cast a spell could still easily put most groups into "text me when it's my turn and I'll drive back" territory for the caster.


Sandal Fury wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:

In Pathfinder, unlimited wealth + crafting skills is the most powerful thing in the game. Doesn't really matter what class you are if you have time, but wizards and witches do it fastest.

A friend and I tried it once, just to have some fun.

** spoiler omitted **...

And what DM would allow all that to just happen?

Maybe a GM who doesn't know how to calculate the price of magic items?

Doomed Hero wrote:
Do you know how much an At Will ring of wishes costs? about 275,000 gold.

Way, way, way off. In fact, you're off by nearly a factor of 10.

Spell Level (SL): 9
Caster Level (CL): 17 (Wizard)
Component Cost (CC): 25,000
Formula: (SL * CL * 2,000)/2 + CC * 100
Cost: (9 * 17 * 2,000)/2 + 25,000 * 100 = 2,653,000

That's your cost to make it. It's 2,806,000 to buy it. You could shave 15,300 gp off of the cost to make it (or 30,600 off the cost to buy it) if you want ti to be Command Word rather than At Will.


Bandw2 wrote:
Laiho Vanallo wrote:

Martial do get nice things!

They are called bow and guns.

The problem is that martial rings melee in people heads.
The only remotely useful melee martial in the whole system is the barbarian with beast totem, because he can apply a full attacks and move.

once again the issue is that the fighter has to walk 10 miles and a wizard can teleport. a wizard can change a campaigns trajectory, while a martial cannot.

Yeah sure the wizard can teleport, like 3 times a day or something at level 9, if he decide to burn 3 level 5 spells slots for that and has the conjuration school. If not that is 2 big times a day. On paper the wizard and overall spell-caster always sound so freaking awesome, but fact is you cannot prepare for everything and anything even at level 9, magic is nice but not all mighty.

My 2000 arrows at level 9 that I have a bag of holding will be enough of the to take of mostly anything. If I really need to teleport I will get a trait that allow me to have UMD as a class skill, I will invest points in it and then go buy myself a scroll of teleport for 1000 GP (thank you summoner).

It's never safe to assume that martial should never be able to use magic, it's not their main use but I played a gunslinger with maxed out UMD and I will tell you that if I needed to use a spell for a special occasion I had a scroll/wand ready for it.

With all the archetype that got blessed upon us lets not kid ourselves, most martial can go toe to toe with most spell casters. But that is counter productive, as a team you need martials and you need magic users they complement each other very well and they work optimally in tandem.

I totally agree that huge and powerful spell can shape the world, but so is a bow and a gun or a sword. Even better, very high skill can directly change the law of the land, fool the most powerful villain or sway a dragon opinion on your point of view if need to be. The best part there is no saving throw against most skill checks.

Sovereign Court

chaoseffect wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Most would just be a full round so that the enemy would have a round to try to disrupt the spell - lesser spells not even that. But Teleport, Plane Shift, and other spells which are easy escapes? High level spells which dominate the battlefield? At least 2 rounds, though in a few cases 3+ wouldn't bother me. (They would be the exception, not the rule.)

As to combat rounds taking so long - much of that is the spell-casting on both sides, and the rounds would be given up by both sides, speeding up each round.

It would also have the secondary benefit of making dispelling viable - as with a spellcraft check you'd know what they're planning to cast and, if you have the spell, you know if you can counter it.

Giving prohibitive casting times to travel spells seems solid, as does having more spells with 1 round cast durations. No problem there. I took you original post to mean the vast majority of spells having multiple round wind up times.

As far as combat taking forever, there's a lot of factors there that make it so even without lots of magic being thrown around. I still think that 3+ rounds to cast a spell could still easily put most groups into "text me when it's my turn and I'll drive back" territory for the caster.

Fair enough - I suppose that I wasn't very clear. (I knew what I meant! :P) The main thing would be to make most spells take at least a full-round so that the other side would always have the chance to disrupt them without needing to ready an action. (Giving up a full attack for a single one.)


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Oly wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:

not true, as mentioned, the disparity is between the abilities capable of changing a story. a wizard can teleport and warn of an impending invasion, the martials simply have to walk back. If they say had a class choice to gain some kind of extra quick mount or other ability (maybe a rogue can have trained pidgeons to move items or messages about) to effect world changing plots.

Now, that part is true. Magic is fun, because of out of combat uses. When I started playing some time back, I was more thinking about survivability and gravitated toward martials.

I've come to see magic as more fun, and am much more likely to play casters now.

But because those I've played with (including when I GM) have intelligent NPC's usually target those easily identifiable as casters, I certainly feel more vulnerable when playing arcane casters (divine casters are less vulnerable, but that's balanced by making their spells weaker than arcane spells). I've died as casters (and eventually been resurrected), and never died in combat as a martial.

Maybe I need to use Mirror Image more, but I think people are ignoring relative danger, partially because many GM's don't have intelligent NPC's target the squishies.

As far as fun, to me that's the tradeoff: Less danger (as a martial) for less cool stuff vs. the opposite. And if you think casters are both very much stronger characters and (really to the point) more fun to play, then just play them....

well I mean my current sorcerer wields a crossbow and stays back casting enchantment magic to debuff enemies. This isn't as obvious so they very may well just ignore the just who fiddles with his crossbow too much and barely hits.

in another party we're all gishes of some sort.


Fergie wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:


Could your provide some examples? Off the top of my head the only thing that comes to mind is something like the new skill boosts that makes Bluff work like Suggestion (a 2nd or 3rd level spell depending on spell list) except with first level caster duration 1/day per person. At level 20.
There are several debuff effects such as dazzling display, and various ways to induce fear and even things like sickness from rogue talents and such. (Ravingdork made a cool debuff rogue build, I encourage you to check out.) If you go through the various rogue talents, barbarian rage powers, fighter feats, and martial class archetypes, there are dozens of things martials can do that most people consider the domain of the caster. If you include paladins and rangers as martials, the list gets even bigger.

Dazzling Display takes two feats and a full round action to give a minor, non-stacking debuff.

The Rogue archetype Thug you mentioned can potentially add 1 round Frightened if you happen beat the DC to intimidate by 10 and it can also choose to further debuff with Sickened, which is also a nice addition though it is a non-scaling effect that becomes worth less and less as one levels. Most Rogue Talents are still awful, but the Unchained Skills add some nice things but at unreasonably high levels for most games.

Barbarian is has nice things.

Closest thing Fighter gets is a Spellbreaker, i.e. Spell Sunder with less uses, and that requires you to be a dorf, level 10, and take two mostly worthless prerequisites.

Rangers get some spells as do Paladins... beyond that they hit certain things harder than normal, though Paladin gets his immunities and god saves.

For the most part all I see are hard to get abilities for high level characters that to simulate low level casting.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Caineach wrote:
I find a lot of people also don't bother to look at what percentage of their resources they are spending just to stay alive. They talk about having mirror image up, but that takes a turn to activate, wont even last you a full combat, and spends a spell slot. That's not something you want to invest in before about 7th level, and even then you can't rely on it every time.

it lasts for minutes per level... you can clear several rooms with that, if you actually have manageable dex with any sort of other AC buffs they can last a good amount of time.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Laiho Vanallo wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Laiho Vanallo wrote:

Martial do get nice things!

They are called bow and guns.

The problem is that martial rings melee in people heads.
The only remotely useful melee martial in the whole system is the barbarian with beast totem, because he can apply a full attacks and move.

once again the issue is that the fighter has to walk 10 miles and a wizard can teleport. a wizard can change a campaigns trajectory, while a martial cannot.
Yeah sure the wizard can teleport, like 3 times a day or something at level 9, if he decide to burn 3 level 5 spells slots for that and has the conjuration school. If not that is 2 big times a day. On paper the wizard and overall spell-caster always sound so freaking awesome, but fact is you cannot prepare for everything and anything even at level 9, magic is nice but not all mighty.

now see this is why you don't prepare all your spell slots at the beginning of the day...


And even then, three Teleports is three more than any martial class can manage.


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The problem with "obviously the guy with magic would be able to do a gajillion things the guy without magic can't" is that it's taking a big, steaming dump over the concept of a level system.

A level 20 character should be inherently more dangerous and powerful than a level 17 one, but let's observe the baseline of if you're going up against a level 20 fighter or a level 17 wizard before you factor in magical items.

The level 20 fighter has a lot of HP, fairly high AC, and deals a lot of damage when he full attacks. If you get hit by his full attack, you are probably going to die.

The level 17 wizard can stop time for his opening move and be invisible, airborne, and backed up by 1d3 fiendish tyrannosauruses when time resumes, and things are only going to get worse when he starts showing you what his OFFENSIVE spells look like.

The fighter in this scenario is a pretty easy boss fight because he is essentially no different from a big, stupid naked monster with really high stats and no supernatural or spell-like abilities; work around its defenses since it's relying mostly on DR and a high AC to keep you from wearing its HP down and don't let it get its full attack routine in. If it's purely melee, waste it from the air. If it's ranged, get some cover or winds up, get inside his strike range, and take him apart.

The Wizard in this scenario is a tricky boss fight because you need an anti-invisibility method to know where the bugger even went after time froze, a way to fly or melee tactics are basically useless against him now, and one to three meaty melee monsters with a very painful bite attack, alignment-based damage reduction, and some elemental resistances (and a fairly insignificant amount of spell resistance) have arrived to assist him and keep your attention off of him. Additionally, you have no idea what the wizard's remaining spells and his game plan with them are, as you can run this scenario 15 times and have a very different setup to fight against every time. What works and what doesn't isn't going to be immediately obvious and depending on the kind of wizard you're fighting, those t-rexes rampaging over you might have backup on the way if you don't find that guy fast, you might need to brace against a lot of painful debuffs, him using illusions and enchantments to turn you against one another while his minions finish you off, or just try to weather him unleashing a ton of fire and lightning on your butts.

And that's bullcrap. The fighter in this scenario is three levels higher than the wizard but the threat he presents is fairly one-dimensional and has counters built in (full-attack dependent characters, particularly melee ones, can be kited, most attack spells don't care at all how much AC and DR you have, if you're using flight to avoid melee or wind to deflect all his arrows he's in a real pickle) while you could be up against practically anything depending on what spells the lower-level wizard knows, and your primary responses to his tactics are to find the magic bullet that he DIDN'T prepare for (grappling if he doesn't have easy access to Freedom of Movement, etc) that will let him stop re-writing the rules of the battle long enough for you to go Ides of March on him or going "that's it, NOBODY GETS MAGIC" and nailing him because he more than likely didn't think you'd seriously be able to catch him in an anti-magic field. Some people will be quick to point out Mr. Wizard isn't so tough when you catch him unawares and he doesn't go first, which is why it kind of irks me that the ability to never be surprised and pretty much always go first is a wizard class feature and not a martial one.

Magic items are intended as the factor that makes this higher-level (and therefore more wealthy) fighter more threatening, but that strikes me as poorly thought-out since it's much easier for full-casting classes to be master crafters than martial classes, and therefore it's a simple matter for a crafter to have more magical items sooner since he gets them on the cheap and his build doesn't need nearly as many feats so he can blow quite a number of them on covering his full crafting needs without losing his effectiveness at anything else.

And this is purely in battle. The real "nice things" problem is when we're discussing "At last, level 10! I can full attack at the end of a charge while raging!" vs "At last, level 10! Now I can Teleport the entire party all over the place!" or "At last, level 10! Now I can ask ten questions of the gods themselves that are relevant to our quest!"

It sort of seems like magic falls into an "app store" effect, where for any problem you encounter, there might not be a skill check or weapon that will do jack **** to help, but there is most definitely a spell for that, it's merely a question of if someone can grab it or thought ahead to have it on hand, in scroll or spell form. I get that Pathfinder has a lot of combat in it, but one of the issues I do have with current design paradigms is that the warrior's role is to win combat while the mage's role is to solve problems (including combat). The rogue and slayer are about as good as it gets for a character without a spell list trying to stay relevant when the swords aren't out, and since people seem to look down on hack'n'slash games so much, you'd think people would have more of a problem that utility when there's no hacking or slashing to be done is so dang one-sided on top of magic getting cooler options in battle than the practical but boring and limited full-attacks most martial characters get stuck with.

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