Why can nobody find and identify you, exactly?
You're using regular Stealth. A dude with Darkvision or a torch can make your entire Stealth check meaningless if you get too close to them.
Or a simple Alarm spell.
This is not about stress, this is about fun. Watching the casters solve all the problems is not fun for a martial, even if he gets the same xp.
I belong to the second group, generally. We don't do individual XP, we just all level when the GM says so, it takes the stress out of contributing.
Maybe not in your group, but in mine, if we see a hundred goblins get lit up with a single fireball, we all laugh.
:D
I think what a lot of people are missing is that the party's "martial" can be played as a Druid, Cleric, Oracle, Magus... really, the only class that gets zero spells and is as effective with a big stick as the casters is the Barbarian. Mainly because the Barbarian gets great utility abilities that the other non-spellcasters just don't have (barb smash puny maze).
Why can nobody find and identify you, exactly?
You're using regular Stealth. A dude with Darkvision or a torch can make your entire Stealth check meaningless if you get too close to them.
You mean once you get within melee range? :D
stuff
1 - what do you guys like NEVER use rope?
2 - actually IF it was 1/3 my power, it would actually be cast on the fighter, if we were both fighters we could just be SOL.
3 - because you're distracted? or are you stealthing while not paying attention somehow? it's explicitly what the rules say. i'm assuming multitasking counts as distracted.
@ disguise plan, this is all hours/days later, wizard still just flew in invisible and used detect magic i guess to avoid your weird traps.
I'm going to go a step farther, your one rogue got in cool, my wizard cast mass fly and sphere of invisibility, now the whole party is in.
4 - yeah after a caster was involved in some way. magic beatign magic doesn't say anything about martials not being to intrinsically do this.
5 - ugh... after like the first few barrels are on fire people are going to ask you why you're lighting them on fire... (assuming disguise) and no matter your bluff some lies are simply not believable, it's right in the skill's listings.
6 - exactly which means you have high level gaurdsmen about looking out for high level spies, there's probably a few high level people hired specifically to stop master spies.
My group allows sense motive to stealth between cover. Pretty obvious use of the skill.
As for poison, the rules are patently ridiculous.
So, your argument is that the rules are perfect as written, and should not be changed, because you ignore the rules?
<Mind boggles>
Why can nobody find and identify you, exactly?
You're using regular Stealth. A dude with Darkvision or a torch can make your entire Stealth check meaningless if you get too close to them.
1 . Cover. He needs to succeed a perception check that is outside of his DC to see you. It is ridiculously trivial to get stealth checks over +20 by level 10. A simple bluff check will allow you to move between cover without the enemy ever knowing where you are. Unless the enemy camp is sending someone higher level than you on patrols, they wont ever find you.
2.If they somehow manage to find you, then they need to be able to identify that you shouldn't be there. Disguise and Bluff vs their perception and sense motive. The disguise DC is ridiculous because you have the advantage of only trying to blend in for a +5, not look like someone specific, and you can take 20. They will be looking to break 40, and if that cover somehow gets blown, you can create a new one the next day. Of course a simple hat of disguise for 1200gp means they you could walk away and walk back and they wont be able to tell it was the same person, changing as a standard action.Similarly you can bluff. Feining incompetence is an easy lie generic people will believe, so no negative modifier. A successful disguise could easily qualify as convincing proof for a minor bonus. Not to mention you probably have at least 5-10 better than generic guard's sense motive.
Then it just becomes a matter of not drawing so much attention to your actions that you become predictable to avoid whatever elites in the army may be sent to investigate.
Or a simple Alarm spell.Why can nobody find and identify you, exactly?
You're using regular Stealth. A dude with Darkvision or a torch can make your entire Stealth check meaningless if you get too close to them.
Go ahead. Cast an alarm spell on an area where people have to work all day long.
I think what a lot of people are missing is that the party's "martial" can be played as a Druid, Cleric, Oracle, Magus... really, the only class that gets zero spells and is as effective with a big stick as the casters is the Barbarian. Mainly because the Barbarian gets great utility abilities that the other non-spellcasters just don't have (barb smash puny maze).Slayers are quite effective.
Fighters could use some improvements. They should be the ultimate with the big stick, and aren't as good as they ought to be. They needed an Unchained variant to improve them-- not as much as rogues did, but still...they aren't as good at combat as a completely non-magical class should be.
My view is not that it's all completely equal, but just that people overstate the disparity.
Slayers are usable, not effective. They have more utility than the Fighter and more damage than the Rogue, but it's still nothing compared to what a Barbarian can do with rage powers and certainly not comparable to spells. If the Slayer had talents that were strong enough to be better than using talent slots for bonus feats then we could talk.
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#1) wasted skill points on climb, or point buy points on intelligence
#1) Take 10. DC30 to climb paper walls, so if I'm in an oriental style place the most I will ever need in climb is a 20. Fighter or Barbarian has that by around level 10. Lvl 7 or so you can start taking 10 on pretty much any other surface, easily hitting the DC25. Lvl 3 characters can hit the DC20 on most walls.#2) Thus wasting a second level spell, at minimum, that he likely had to prepare for in advance.
#3)I take 10. No generic guard can perceive me, even if they roll nat 20, but they should be taking 10 as well. If I do get found, I bluff past them, also taking 10. I don't even need to spend significant points to climb most walls, as the DCs are pathetic.
#4)And then defensive magic reveals an illusion and transmutation aura and the entire fortress is put on alert. Your plan is fooled by a 1000gp CR1 alarm trap with arcane sight. Not to mention that you have only a handful of minutes unless you recast. I fear skill monkeys more than casters as a GM. The skill monkey can infiltrate days in advance and never get caught.
#5) I had a player poison the food supply. Spent a couple days infiltrating the camp, scouting, and then poisoned the water and food. A couple dead animals will poison a well. Its trivial to sabatoge the karts moving the food. See above where stealth, disguise, and bluff will easily allow you to blend in as a camp follower. Worst case scenario, he ties up all of low level casters in the army. He was way more effective than anything the casters could do, and spent far fewer resources doing it. Decimated the army and destroyed their morale. An army marches on its stomach.
#6) Love how enemy armies never have their own caster support or counters.
Oh no, I spent a couple points on a skill that is highly useful.
Sure. Your still wasting slots. At the...
#2) if you don't have open spell slots on a prepared caster you're playing them wrong
I do agree with a lot of the ideas in this general post/thought chain, but some considerations:
1: Wizards get skill ranks too. Lots of them. After all, Int is a priority. They get more than a fighter does usually, and can compete with rangers without breaking a sweat. All of these tactics are useful, but the fact that they can easily be used is what makes casters great at them. They, unlike martials can augment their skills if they need to, while also keeping up with martials.
2: Taking 10 isn't always an option. If you are distracted or endangered, and don't have one of a few specific abilities, you can't. Like if you are, say, surrounded by enemies that are all trained military officers that you are trying to sabotage. Most GMs I play with say that qualifies as being 'endangered'.
Don't get me wrong, I fully agree that a skilled martial can contribute to most problems, but there are really very few options that aren't available to casters and that have meaningful narritive power.
My group allows sense motive to stealth between cover. Pretty obvious use of the skill.
As for poison, the rules are patently ridiculous.
So, your argument is that the rules are perfect as written, and should not be changed, because you ignore the rules?
<Mind boggles>
I've never made any mention that I think the rules are anywhere close to perfect. Just that they aren't nearly as broken as people seem to imply. Very trivial fixes can be made to fix this supposedly wide gap. A simple house rule of allowing sense motive to stealth over open terrain past known guards (you must still end in concealment or cover at the end of the round), is simple, believable, and fixes the 360 vision problem. Not pricing poisons against magic item equivalents actually makes them worth using, instead of something that just takes space in the rulebook.
Go ahead. Cast an alarm spell on an area where people have to work all day long.Or a simple Alarm spell.Why can nobody find and identify you, exactly?
You're using regular Stealth. A dude with Darkvision or a torch can make your entire Stealth check meaningless if you get too close to them.
Alarm creates a subtle ward on an area you select. Once the spell effect is in place, it thereafter sounds a mental or audible alarm each time a creature of Tiny or larger size enters the warded area or touches it. A creature that speaks the password (determined by you at the time of casting) does not set off the alarm. You decide at the time of casting whether the alarm will be mental or audible in nature.
Mental Alarm: A mental alarm alerts you (and only you) so long as you remain within 1 mile of the warded area. You note a single mental “ping” that awakens you from normal sleep but does not otherwise disturb concentration. A silence spell has no effect on a mental alarm.
In my experience, most of our casters buff the non-casters for a couple rounds, then open up with artillery if required.
Seems to work. So usually about 50% of spells cast are buffs/heals.
That would be because buffing is one of the most powerful things you can do in combat.
Haste is a MASSIVE force multiplier (that non-casters simply don't get).
I think where people get confused on the martial/caster things is one of three places:
1.) They only think in terms of "encounter enders" and what the caster DIRECTLY contributes to combat. Mass Suffocation ends encounter, which is insanely powerful. Yes, it also requires a massive amount of specialization to be reliably effective.
Buffing the beatstick is just as much of an "encounter ender" however. If you have a guy who regularly casts Haste during the tough fights, try playing without him some time. Fights become waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay harder immediately. Then tack on the lack of Heroism or Good Hope or whatever. You're essentially fighting at several CRs lower than usual.
2.) They only think in terms of combat in the first place, and fail to acknowledge that casters can simply do things martial classes CAN'T. Casters can overcome some obstacles martials can't begin to challenge.
3.) They confuse "My martial CAN do this" with "My martial can do this better".
Caineach's laughable statement that Climb is an incredibly useful skill up thread is a good example of this.
Sure, you CAN climb the DC 25 cliff in a rainstorm.
You do it slower, less reliably, and with far more investment than the caster. A single low level spell slot out does your max ranks in Climb.
Those 5/10/15/20 skill points you used are an investment you will rarely see used in play, and an investment you will never get back.
Meanwhile, that single casting of Spider Climb or Fly the Wizard uses (or at high levels, Overland Flight) is an expenditure of a very small part of their daily resources, and for prepared casters, not an...
I just personally hate playing Buff bots. If i am playong something, I WANT TO FEEL AWESOME, not be the fighters vending machine.
2: Taking 10 isn't always an option. If you are distracted or endangered, and don't have one of a few specific abilities, you can't. Like if you are, say, surrounded by enemies that are all trained military officers that you are trying to sabotage. Most GMs I play with say that qualifies as being 'endangered'.
If they aren't actively hostile, you can take 10. That is the entire point of taking 10. And why would you bother going anywhere near enemy commanders if your trying to sabotage an army. They don't visit the supply lines :)
I've never made any mention that I think the rules are anywhere close to perfect. Just that they aren't nearly as broken as people seem to imply. Very trivial fixes can be made to fix this supposedly wide gap. A simple house rule of allowing sense motive to stealth over open terrain past known guards (you must still end in concealment or cover at the end of the round), is simple, believable, and fixes the 360 vision problem. Not pricing poisons against magic item equivalents actually makes them worth using, instead of something that just takes space in the rulebook.
That's kind of what I started thinking. And then I said, if you're willing to rewrite the skill rules and the poison rules, why not rewrite a class or two while you're at it?
I've never made any mention that I think the rules are anywhere close to perfect. Just that they aren't nearly as broken as people seem to imply. Very trivial fixes can be made to fix this supposedly wide gap. A simple house rule of allowing sense motive to stealth over open terrain past known guards (you must still end in concealment or cover at the end of the round), is simple, believable, and fixes the 360 vision problem. Not pricing poisons against magic item equivalents actually makes them worth using, instead of something that just takes space in the rulebook.That's kind of what I started thinking. And then I said, if you're willing to rewrite the skill rules and the poison rules, why not rewrite a class or two while you're at it?
Honestly, I do think Rogue and Fighter are under powered too. Fighter gets mostly fixed by just giving him 4 skill points. A few common feat trees I think need some work, mostly to condense them.
Rogues I would fix by reworking rogue talents. Many of the talents are things you should be able to do with skill checks, and I would allow rogues to get massive bonuses to those checks. Ranged sneak attack needs to be fixed because it doesn't scale into high levels.
But honestly, when someone plays a rogue or fighter at my table, I rarely feel they are gimped or not contributing. Often they are one of the most feared people in the game. Usually, it is the full casters that complain the most about not being able to contribute, especially if they want to play something less stereotypical.
Go ahead. Cast an alarm spell on an area where people have to work all day long.Or a simple Alarm spell.Why can nobody find and identify you, exactly?
You're using regular Stealth. A dude with Darkvision or a torch can make your entire Stealth check meaningless if you get too close to them.
Alarm creates a subtle ward on an area you select. Once the spell effect is in place, it thereafter sounds a mental or audible alarm each time a creature of Tiny or larger size enters the warded area or touches it. A creature that speaks the password (determined by you at the time of casting) does not set off the alarm. You decide at the time of casting whether the alarm will be mental or audible in nature.
Mental Alarm: A mental alarm alerts you (and only you) so long as you remain within 1 mile of the warded area. You note a single mental “ping” that awakens you from normal sleep but does not otherwise disturb concentration. A silence spell has no effect on a mental alarm.
And lvl 1-3 commoners are going to always remember to say the password, and you will not be able to tell that everyone going into an area is saying the same thing? You have the time to study your target.
And lvl 1-3 commoners are going to always remember to say the password, and you will not be able to tell that everyone going into an area is saying the same thing? You have the time to study your target.Go ahead. Cast an alarm spell on an area where people have to work all day long.Or a simple Alarm spell.Why can nobody find and identify you, exactly?
You're using regular Stealth. A dude with Darkvision or a torch can make your entire Stealth check meaningless if you get too close to them.
Alarm creates a subtle ward on an area you select. Once the spell effect is in place, it thereafter sounds a mental or audible alarm each time a creature of Tiny or larger size enters the warded area or touches it. A creature that speaks the password (determined by you at the time of casting) does not set off the alarm. You decide at the time of casting whether the alarm will be mental or audible in nature.
Mental Alarm: A mental alarm alerts you (and only you) so long as you remain within 1 mile of the warded area. You note a single mental “ping” that awakens you from normal sleep but does not otherwise disturb concentration. A silence spell has no effect on a mental alarm.
Did you miss the whole Mental thing? And these are guards. Chances are, trained guards can remember a single pass word.
I just personally hate playing Buff bots. If i am playong something, I WANT TO FEEL AWESOME, not be the fighters vending machine.
I have a player who plays a debuff bot. Every time the enemies fail to do something or are affected by someone else because of one of his spells, I make sure the table knows it. I think the last session, one full attack chain had 3 attacks miss because of Archon's Aura, and then half the rogues attacks hit because of it. It makes the whole table appreciate the contribution when that one spell basically completely turned the battle by killing the monster and saving a player.
Did you miss the whole Mental thing? And these are guards. Chances are, trained guards can remember a single pass word.And lvl 1-3 commoners are going to always remember to say the password, and you will not be able to tell that everyone going into an area is saying the same thing? You have the time to study your target.Go ahead. Cast an alarm spell on an area where people have to work all day long.Or a simple Alarm spell.Why can nobody find and identify you, exactly?
You're using regular Stealth. A dude with Darkvision or a torch can make your entire Stealth check meaningless if you get too close to them.
Alarm creates a subtle ward on an area you select. Once the spell effect is in place, it thereafter sounds a mental or audible alarm each time a creature of Tiny or larger size enters the warded area or touches it. A creature that speaks the password (determined by you at the time of casting) does not set off the alarm. You decide at the time of casting whether the alarm will be mental or audible in nature.
Mental Alarm: A mental alarm alerts you (and only you) so long as you remain within 1 mile of the warded area. You note a single mental “ping” that awakens you from normal sleep but does not otherwise disturb concentration. A silence spell has no effect on a mental alarm.
They must speak the password when entering. The alarm is mental. The conversation was on poisoning food stores and water supplies for an army. Not sure why trained guards would be the only ones accessing those. Is the cook never going to get food out of the stores? Are grooms never going to be tending to the animals transporting the food?
And lvl 1-3 commoners are going to always remember to say the password, and you will not be able to tell that everyone going into an area is saying the same thing? You have the time to study your target.Go ahead. Cast an alarm spell on an area where people have to work all day long.Or a simple Alarm spell.Why can nobody find and identify you, exactly?
You're using regular Stealth. A dude with Darkvision or a torch can make your entire Stealth check meaningless if you get too close to them.
Alarm creates a subtle ward on an area you select. Once the spell effect is in place, it thereafter sounds a mental or audible alarm each time a creature of Tiny or larger size enters the warded area or touches it. A creature that speaks the password (determined by you at the time of casting) does not set off the alarm. You decide at the time of casting whether the alarm will be mental or audible in nature.
Mental Alarm: A mental alarm alerts you (and only you) so long as you remain within 1 mile of the warded area. You note a single mental “ping” that awakens you from normal sleep but does not otherwise disturb concentration. A silence spell has no effect on a mental alarm.
Yeah, commoners aren't braindead, they can remember a simple password. Maybe once in a hundred times the rookie goofs and there's a false alarm (heh). Big deal. We have false fire drills, too.
They won't have to leave the area too often, either. Army camps aren't shopping malls—the majority of them will be staying in one place for the majority of the time. Your chances to eavesdrop aren't unlimited, and if the enemy uses more than one alarm (and ergo more than one password) it gets even harder. How can you be sure what places are alarmed and what places are them just saying things for no reason? What if the password is something like saying "Hi, Frank" to one of the guards?
You mean once you get within melee range? :DWhy can nobody find and identify you, exactly?
You're using regular Stealth. A dude with Darkvision or a torch can make your entire Stealth check meaningless if you get too close to them.
DC -10 Perception to hear combat.
GG.
Why can nobody find and identify you, exactly?
You're using regular Stealth. A dude with Darkvision or a torch can make your entire Stealth check meaningless if you get too close to them.
1 . Cover. He needs to succeed a perception check that is outside of his DC to see you. It is ridiculously trivial to get stealth checks over +20 by level 10. A simple bluff check will allow you to move between cover without the enemy ever knowing where you are. Unless the enemy camp is sending someone higher level than you on patrols, they wont ever find you.
2.If they somehow manage to find you, then they need to be able to identify that you shouldn't be there. Disguise and Bluff vs their perception and sense motive. The disguise DC is ridiculous because you have the advantage of only trying to blend in for a +5, not look like someone specific, and you can take 20. They will be looking to break 40, and if that cover somehow gets blown, you can create a new one the next day. Of course a simple hat of disguise for 1200gp means they you could walk away and walk back and they wont be able to tell it was the same person, changing as a standard action.
Similarly you can bluff. Feining incompetence is an easy lie generic people will believe, so no negative modifier. A successful disguise could easily qualify as convincing proof for a minor bonus. Not to mention you probably have at least 5-10 better than generic guard's sense motive.Then it just becomes a matter of not drawing so much attention to your actions that you become predictable to avoid whatever elites in the army may be sent to investigate.
Your main flaw in all this is assuming they won't send some high level people to track you down after the first time you poison something.
And that assuming poisoning the supply line in a few spots kills off the entire army.
Go ahead. Cast an alarm spell on an area where people have to work all day long.Or a simple Alarm spell.Why can nobody find and identify you, exactly?
You're using regular Stealth. A dude with Darkvision or a torch can make your entire Stealth check meaningless if you get too close to them.
I will.
And lvl 1-3 commoners are going to always remember to say the password, and you will not be able to tell that everyone going into an area is saying the same thing? You have the time to study your target.Go ahead. Cast an alarm spell on an area where people have to work all day long.Or a simple Alarm spell.Why can nobody find and identify you, exactly?
You're using regular Stealth. A dude with Darkvision or a torch can make your entire Stealth check meaningless if you get too close to them.
Alarm creates a subtle ward on an area you select. Once the spell effect is in place, it thereafter sounds a mental or audible alarm each time a creature of Tiny or larger size enters the warded area or touches it. A creature that speaks the password (determined by you at the time of casting) does not set off the alarm. You decide at the time of casting whether the alarm will be mental or audible in nature.
Mental Alarm: A mental alarm alerts you (and only you) so long as you remain within 1 mile of the warded area. You note a single mental “ping” that awakens you from normal sleep but does not otherwise disturb concentration. A silence spell has no effect on a mental alarm.
yes, but how did you hear the password for the 2nd alarm? also, if they forget the passwords they're flogged or fired, pretty simple.
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2: Taking 10 isn't always an option. If you are distracted or endangered, and don't have one of a few specific abilities, you can't. Like if you are, say, surrounded by enemies that are all trained military officers that you are trying to sabotage. Most GMs I play with say that qualifies as being 'endangered'.If they aren't actively hostile, you can take 10. That is the entire point of taking 10. And why would you bother going anywhere near enemy commanders if your trying to sabotage an army. They don't visit the supply lines :)
YMMV.
The rules simply state that it is impossible to take 10 when distracted or endangered. This is left open-ended for GMs to decide. I often find people thinking that endangered simply translates to "if I fail, this is gonna hurt" making it difficult to do anything but parlor tricks and making stuff. Others I have seen have been so liberal as to allow it in combats when someone had been removed (by a pit trap).
Of course, the same is true if you are invisible and flying, but no matter how many stealth checks or fly checks are forced, at a certain point the DC's don't matter as much. Especially of you waited to be invisible until there was a good chance of failing a simple stealth check (like if you recognize someone else)
then your martials are pushing at the expense of the group. it's as simple as that. someone stoping right before spent to rest in a hostile environment is really not smart.stuffYou would not enjoy my games... the group usually goes to about 2/3 resources expended before looking for a safe place to sleep... sometimes they are forced to expend even more.
That might be why casters aren't seen as...
Anyone could easily argue that your casters are resting at the expense of the group.
Isn't there supposed to be a sense of urgency?
"I saved us literally months of travel time by Teleporting us here, so yeah, it will probably wait another day."
"I saved us literally months of travel time by Teleporting us here, so yeah, it will probably wait another day."then your martials are pushing at the expense of the group. it's as simple as that. someone stoping right before spent to rest in a hostile environment is really not smart.stuffYou would not enjoy my games... the group usually goes to about 2/3 resources expended before looking for a safe place to sleep... sometimes they are forced to expend even more.
That might be why casters aren't seen as...
Anyone could easily argue that your casters are resting at the expense of the group.
Isn't there supposed to be a sense of urgency?
your icon matches this
2: Taking 10 isn't always an option. If you are distracted or endangered, and don't have one of a few specific abilities, you can't. Like if you are, say, surrounded by enemies that are all trained military officers that you are trying to sabotage. Most GMs I play with say that qualifies as being 'endangered'.If they aren't actively hostile, you can take 10. That is the entire point of taking 10. And why would you bother going anywhere near enemy commanders if your trying to sabotage an army. They don't visit the supply lines :)YMMV.
The rules simply state that it is impossible to take 10 when distracted or endangered. This is left open-ended for GMs to decide. I often find people thinking that endangered simply translates to "if I fail, this is gonna hurt" making it difficult to do anything but parlor tricks and making stuff. Others I have seen have been so liberal as to allow it in combats when someone had been removed (by a pit trap).
Of course, the same is true if you are invisible and flying, but no matter how many stealth checks or fly checks are forced, at a certain point the DC's don't matter as much. Especially of you waited to be invisible until there was a good chance of failing a simple stealth check (like if you recognize someone else)
Right. But by your interpretation taking 10 would be impossible in pretty much any situation, so why have the rule? And invisibility only gives you a +20 to stealth checks. A level 10 rogue can have that pretty easily.
*looks at the various responses in the thread, then looks at the title again* Apparently it's not time to stop saying it yet. But hey, I'm not going to complain about it. You guys are allowed to think what you want and be as vocal about it as you wish. Meanwhile, I'll just sit over here with the Tome of Battle and Path of War available for my players if they want them. I find that helps even the playing field at least partially.
