Isn't it time to stop saying "Martials never get nice things"?


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I have this weird condition where if I see someone seriously complaining that "martials can never have nice things", I just forget everything in the post I read.

It's weird, but it actually makes the forums a lot more enjoyable to read than before I developed that.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Doomed Hero wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:
Sandal Fury wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:

In Pathfinder, unlimited wealth + crafting skills is the most powerful thing in the game. Doesn't really matter what class you are if you have time, but wizards and witches do it fastest.

A friend and I tried it once, just to have some fun.

** spoiler omitted **...

And what DM would allow all that to just happen?

Maybe a GM who doesn't know how to calculate the price of magic items?

Doomed Hero wrote:
Do you know how much an At Will ring of wishes costs? about 275,000 gold.

Way, way, way off. In fact, you're off by nearly a factor of 10.

Spell Level (SL): 9
Caster Level (CL): 17 (Wizard)
Component Cost (CC): 25,000
Formula: (SL * CL * 2,000)/2 + CC * 100
Cost: (9 * 17 * 2,000)/2 + 25,000 * 100 = 2,653,000

That's your cost to make it. It's 2,806,000 to buy it. You could shave 15,300 gp off of the cost to make it (or 30,600 off the cost to buy it) if you want ti to be Command Word rather than At Will.

Forgot a zero.

Wouldn't matter anyway. Practically unlimited money, remember? That was the point of the exercise.

No, it wasn't. The point of your exercise was to ignore the rules.

I couldn't find the epic wealth by level rules, but I'm pretty sure a 2.8 million k magic item is about level 36 and requires Epic Magic Item creation...you can't make it with normal rules.

In PF, this would require at least greater Mythic crafting, meaning a 20/10 Crafter with Mythic feats, so you also can't make it, and its 4x the wbl of that crafter.
Not to mention a bare minimum craft dc of 36, and likely higher. Even if you could craft it, with a 2.8 million cost, it's going to take you 2,800 days, IF you can reach the craft DC. Goodbye for 8 uninterrupted years hoping nobody notices you absconded with every bit of gold in Absalom.

That at will greater teleport also blows out the 200k limit and is an artifact.

That cannon is a 10d6 normal cannon shot with adamantine ammo.

So, you didn't use and abuse the rules. You made up new ones.

==Aelryinth


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Aelryinth wrote:
If you read the books, you'd know the major power of the Force for Jedi is not TK. It's their ability to be aware of everything going around them and respond to it as or before it happens.

I...may need to go to the Shun Thread for this, but I really don't give a crap about books, expanded universe canon, or any of that jibberjabber. I'm talking about the movies. I'm talking about the cool things Jedi do in those movies. I'm not even saying the Force can't be used to do awesome things. But we all go to the movies for the lightsaber, not the Force Arm Wrestles.


Cheapy wrote:

I have this weird condition where if I see someone seriously complaining that "martials can never have nice things", I just forget everything in the post I read.

It's weird, but it actually makes the forums a lot more enjoyable to read than before I developed that.

As they say, ignorance is a bliss.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Sure, Movie 4 - the ability to see the future is a jedi characteristic (QUigon snatches the fruit away before it can be tongue-snatched, and mentions it).

'Always moving is the future.'

The jedi's ability to sense one another. Darth Vader can sense Obiwan, who is trying to hide himself, somewhere on a space station the size of a moon.
If Yoda wasn't concealed by the dark side energy spot of the test Luke faced nearby, the Emperor could probably find him from across the galaxy.

Within days of meeting Obiwan, Luke is capable of parrying the stun shots of a droid while BLINDFOLDED. The only way to do that, since he can't read its mind, is to know where it is going to shoot.

He puts the killshot for the Death Star into a shot so fine computer-aided firing wasn't expected to hit it. With the computer off and his eyes closed.

The repeated examples in the movies where the jedi carve through normal troops/bots and can only be defeated by massive firepower...or another jedi.

It's all there. The expanded awareness is MUCH harder to cinemize, however.

==Aelryinth


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Aelryinth wrote:
Caineach wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:


In Star Wars, Han Solo is a really good "martial", even with a ranged attack, but Luke could defeat him in the blink of an eye even after training with Ben Kenobi for only the length of a single trip from Tatooine to Alderaan (where Luke learned to deflect blasters with the Force).

You know, I hear people mention Jedi a lot in these sorts of threads, and it makes me wonder if they've really thought the comparison out.

The Jedi (and Sith) focus primarily on their lightsaber duels. That's what we regard as "awesome" about them. Sure, their reflexes and stuff are enhanced by the midichlorians, blah blah blah, but that's all flavor text for things lots of action movies would just handwave because it looks cool. Jedi are martials with some spell-like abilities. Luke hardly ever uses the Force, save for the odd enchantment effect (only on the weak-minded) or a bit of telekinetics. Basically, he's a monk with one or two levels in sorcerer psychic.

With the exception of Yoda and Palpatine (and one scene where Darth Vader deflected blaster shots with his hand), the "martial" aspect of the force-users is always the side that ends battles (hell, Palpatine was undone with a grapple check). I could easily argue that Mace Windu, Obi-Wan, Darth Maul and Luke are great examples of martials done right—sure, the monks have a few showy magic tricks, but they're always melee fighters first and foremost. Why can't paladins and fighters get some of that action? ;D

This X1000

Just look at any medium to high powered fantasy and you see the martials being awesome. At best, they are some hybrid gish, but they almost always favor the martial aspects. The fact that they are more or less impossible to build in d&d style games is one reason why I'm looking at other systems.

Star Wars is not one of those.

Look at EVERY circumstance where Jedi fight non-Jedi. They curb stomp them. Mace Windu takes on an entire robot army by himself,...

that's because he's level 10 or something fighting level 1 warrior robots...

also, they were all murdered in one go by storm troopers...


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

I imagine jedi are monk-like and apply wisdom to AC.

Scarab Sages

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Bandw2 wrote:
also, they were all murdered in one go by storm troopers...

This. For all the precognition they had, less than 5% of the Jedi survived order 66, and almost all of the survivors were killed in the purge shortly after.


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Bandw2 wrote:
I imagine jedi are monk-like and apply wisdom to AC.

Cheddar Monks

Imbicatus wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
also, they were all murdered in one go by storm troopers...
This. For all the precognition they had, less than 5% of the Jedi survived order 66, and almost all of the survivors were killed in the purge shortly after.

For what it's worth... the Clone Troopers never attended the Stormtrooper Marskmanship Academy.

Also, they were trusted allies and Sidious was dampening their divination during that era.

Scarab Sages

kyrt-ryder wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
I imagine jedi are monk-like and apply wisdom to AC.
Cheddar Monks

With the summon bigger fish qinggong power.


Scaling bonus to Perform (act)


DominusMegadeus wrote:
Scaling bonus to Perform (act)

Must have been FAQ-eratta'd out of the game before the Prequels were filmed.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Scaling bonus to Perform (act)
Must have been FAQ-eratta'd out of the game before the Prequels were filmed.

Nah, the problem was everyone taking a -20 to their Perform(act) rolls because the writer/director rolled a Nat 1.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Remember, actors are not actually their characters. A lot of people can't keep those separate. I rather think all the actors did a wonderful job of portraying poorly written characters.


Aelryinth wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:
Sandal Fury wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:

In Pathfinder, unlimited wealth + crafting skills is the most powerful thing in the game. Doesn't really matter what class you are if you have time, but wizards and witches do it fastest.

A friend and I tried it once, just to have some fun.

** spoiler omitted **...

And what DM would allow all that to just happen?

Maybe a GM who doesn't know how to calculate the price of magic items?

Doomed Hero wrote:
Do you know how much an At Will ring of wishes costs? about 275,000 gold.

Way, way, way off. In fact, you're off by nearly a factor of 10.

Spell Level (SL): 9
Caster Level (CL): 17 (Wizard)
Component Cost (CC): 25,000
Formula: (SL * CL * 2,000)/2 + CC * 100
Cost: (9 * 17 * 2,000)/2 + 25,000 * 100 = 2,653,000

That's your cost to make it. It's 2,806,000 to buy it. You could shave 15,300 gp off of the cost to make it (or 30,600 off the cost to buy it) if you want ti to be Command Word rather than At Will.

Forgot a zero.

Wouldn't matter anyway. Practically unlimited money, remember? That was the point of the exercise.

No, it wasn't. The point of your exercise was to ignore the rules.

I couldn't find the epic wealth by level rules, but I'm pretty sure a 2.8 million k magic item is about level 36 and requires Epic Magic Item creation...you can't make it with normal rules.

In PF, this would require at least greater Mythic crafting, meaning a 20/10 Crafter with Mythic feats, so you also can't make it, and its 4x the wbl of that crafter.
Not to mention a bare minimum craft dc of 36, and likely higher. Even if you could craft it, with a 2.8 million cost, it's going to take you 2,800 days, IF you can reach the craft DC. Goodbye for 8 uninterrupted years hoping nobody notices you absconded with every bit of gold in Absalom.

That at will greater teleport also blows out the 200k limit and is an artifact.

That cannon is a 10d6 normal cannon...

So what you do is simply hold out your hand until such a ring appears out of thin air. Then you say:

"I wish this Ring of Unlimited Wishes had appeared in my hand ten seconds ago."

Causality goes wimpering in a corner, and some poor high-level Wizard who just wasted eight years of his life pulls out his hair and goes insane. In the meantime, wash-rinse-repeat until you have an unlimited amount of those rings.


Tectorman wrote:
...

Before doing this, travel to a plane with no gravity.

That way, you will at least freak out some planar travelers when they run across your floating bones that you left after you died waiting for that to happen.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Sending an object back through time isn't one of the listed possibilities for Wish magic, and duplicates no known spell.

Kinda think not!

And yes, Palpatine was messing up the long range future divinations. So, the order issued along mundane channels to mundane beings who were themselves aberrations in the FOrce wasn't noticed until it was too late to avoid massed fire from who moments ago were steadfast allies.

Treachery can beat a lot of things. And yet, even with the treachery happening, some Jedi STILL got away.

==Aelryinth


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Aelryinth wrote:

Sending an object back through time isn't one of the listed possibilities for Wish magic, and duplicates no known spell.

Kinda think not!

And yes, Palpatine was messing up the long range future divinations. So, the order issued along mundane channels to mundane beings who were themselves aberrations in the FOrce wasn't noticed until it was too late to avoid massed fire from who moments ago were steadfast allies.

Treachery can beat a lot of things. And yet, even with the treachery happening, some Jedi STILL got away.

==Aelryinth

I just imagine the storm troopers serving with jedi were high level veterans at that point and so it was more like a few level 4s or 5s taking on a level 7 in most cases.


Rynjin wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Snowblind wrote:
Oly wrote:

What has surprised me, and gone against my own experiences, is that so many GMs, as had been posted in other threads, don't have NPC opponents do the smart thing and go after the squishy full arcane casters.

An NPC will see a martial there in medium/heavy armor, no spell component pouch, and the wizard/sorcerer/witch/arcanist in no armor with the pouch: Realistically, and in games I've played, he's going to realize both that (attacking physically) he can damage the squishy more, and that the squishy poses more threat to him and his group.

Just having the NPC's (with reasonable Intelligence/Wisdom anyway) do what is the smart tactic from their end, and the danger to full arcane casters does a lot to balance out other powers.

The only other problem is the way that casters are intentionally made SAD-- but some martial classes are as well (I think no one should be SAD, but that's a flaw in the game that helps others besides casters).

Because of limited uses and the like, I don't think the martial/caster disparity is as big as people think. There is some, but it becomes pretty close to balanced if NPC's intelligently try to go after full casters first.

Mirror image is like...a staple spell. Works against almost anything at lower levels, and still works against a lot at high levels (and you have plenty of spell slots to spare then). The NPCs will need a couple of rounds popping images before they start to do serious damage to the caster. They don't have a couple of rounds to spend screwing around. Or the caster is a druid or a cleric or something which can actually have superior numbers than most martials with little effort(instead of just better options and ways to circumvent letting the enemy roll entirely).
Or they can just free action close their eyes, attack the square you are in, and then free action open then after. This will completely negate mirror images, and a 50% miss chance (or less with
...

If the Wizard goes first: "I ready a movement action. If the fighter closes his eyes I step backward by 4 squares."

Warrior: "I get an attack of Op-"

Wizard: "No you don't. You are blinded."

GM: "The warrior loses his attack as he is no longer able to complete it."


Imbicatus wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
I imagine jedi are monk-like and apply wisdom to AC.
Cheddar Monks
With the summon bigger fish qinggong power.

Oh my...

so that's where the name of that variant class came from! I can't believe I never realized it before!

Now we just need Obi-Wonks, Anikmonks, Pupeteen Monks, Starkiller Monks, and Yoda Monks, and martials will finally have nice things!
Or, just give them one of those jacket-snippets that makes the all-martial Padme totally invulnerable.


Or you can just Scry and Fry a Martial...

Funny thing about Mages, if played without intentional gimping or non-utilization of full potential, the only thing that can stop them is another mage.

Things like Scry and Fry are only really stoppable by another Mage (Non-detection is so nice among other spells). A Fighter has a damn hard time stopping the Scrying of a Mage.


Oh and as for the whole Starwars thing, there is actually 2 kinds of Dark Side Force Users. Inquisitors and Knights. Knights are more like Martials (very strong Light Saber users), and Inquisitors are more like Mages (depend heavily on Force powers)


PIXIE DUST wrote:

Or you can just Scry and Fry a Martial...

Funny thing about Mages, if played without intentional gimping or non-utilization of full potential, the only thing that can stop them is another mage.

Things like Scry and Fry are only really stoppable by another Mage (Non-detection is so nice among other spells). A Fighter has a damn hard time stopping the Scrying of a Mage.

Eh, there are magic items which duplicate nondetection. Granted, that's a chunk of WBL that a spellcaster could spend on something else, but defense against scrying should be high priority. Nondetection is a lower level than teleport for a reason.

Plus, you totally got the name wrong. It's Scry-and-DIE, Xykon says so!


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137ben wrote:
PIXIE DUST wrote:

Or you can just Scry and Fry a Martial...

Funny thing about Mages, if played without intentional gimping or non-utilization of full potential, the only thing that can stop them is another mage.

Things like Scry and Fry are only really stoppable by another Mage (Non-detection is so nice among other spells). A Fighter has a damn hard time stopping the Scrying of a Mage.

Eh, there are magic items which duplicate nondetection. Granted, that's a chunk of WBL that a spellcaster could spend on something else, but defense against scrying should be high priority. Nondetection is a lower level than teleport for a reason.

Plus, you totally got the name wrong. It's Scry-and-DIE, Xykon says so!

But the thing is though that Martials get hurt even worse by hits to WBL. Martials are MUCH more dependent on gear than any Mage. Gear simply gives Casters more options and takes a load off their spell list, but they can operate even without their gear (well sorcerers... wizards REALLY need a spell book eventually), Fighters... not so much. That WBL that is lost to Non-detection has to come from somewhere, whether it is his Sword (less hit or nice stuff) or his Armor (defenses even weaker) or his extra wondrous items (means he actually can be easier for the mage to hurt).

Lets also not forget the fact that casters can make the items themselves for cheaper so they get it easier... and Craft: WI is a easy feat to pick up since casters are not known for being feat starved...


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Honestly, I think the problem is feats. While there are a lot of great feats out there, you need 3 feats to get to those REALLY good ones. A great solution to the problem of feats was how the Tomb Rules handled it where you selected a feat and it got better the more BAB you had.


If all Feats were AT LEAST on par with Greater Blind Fight or Whirlwind Attack or whatever without the oodles of prerequiites and a lower level requirement, the game would feel much more even.

It might not be completely, but at least then the argument could be made with a straight face that since Feats are always on and generally unlimited in use, it's okay for them to be a bit weaker.

PF overvalues "at-will" far too much, thinking "I can do this all the time" makes it okay for that thing to be weak, while "I can do this once/twice/three times per day" means it can be extraordinarily powerful, because it's limited.


Ghray wrote:
Honestly, I think the problem is feats. While there are a lot of great feats out there, you need 3 feats to get to those REALLY good ones. A great solution to the problem of feats was how the Tomb Rules handled it where you selected a feat and it got better the more BAB you had.

This is agree with...

Instead of stupid things like "Feat X", "Greater Feat X", and "Improved Feat X" they should simply let them scale in power with BAB. Its no different than a caster's spells getting stronger as he levels... let Improved Grapple give the effects f Greater Grapple for free when he meets a certain BAB... Now the fighter is not just a "guys with a two handed sword" now he is "a guy with a two handed sword who can also Grapple, disarm, dirty fight, reposition, and do a bit of archery on the side to adapt to his situation."

By giving the feat chains of "Improved/Greater" for free, all the fighter's feats suddenly MEAN SOMETHING. Now a fighter can LITERALLY BE THE MASTER OF COMBAT. The fighter would have an actual Niche vs the other martials. He would be able to do ALL the things, which is just awesome.


You can actually remove all feat pre reqs if you want and the game doesn't break.

Well, it probably doesn't, I asked in anotger thread and no one could think of any examples.


Aelryinth wrote:

Sending an object back through time isn't one of the listed possibilities for Wish magic, and duplicates no known spell.

Kinda think not!

And yes, Palpatine was messing up the long range future divinations. So, the order issued along mundane channels to mundane beings who were themselves aberrations in the FOrce wasn't noticed until it was too late to avoid massed fire from who moments ago were steadfast allies.

So, rogue beats wizardmonk?

Aelryinth wrote:
Treachery can beat a lot of things. And yet, even with the treachery happening, some Jedi STILL got away.

Force Awakens aside, it's heavily implied in RotS that two got away. Obi-Wan and Yoda. Hence Luke being "their last hope (aside from the female character)."

And even Yoda needed a couple barbarians to usher him to safety on Kashyyk. ;D

Shadow Lodge

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*double checking to make sure the original poster isn't a alias for one of the Paizo developers*

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Most stories I can think of, magic comes with a heavy cost and/or it takes a lot of time to use and/or the caster is hyper-specialized in one type of magic.

The martial hero can either interrupt the magic or reflect it.

These things are missing in 3.x/PF.

Soilent wrote:

You can go ahead and think that martials cannot match up to other classes, but the fact of the matter is, Tucker's Kobolds is always an option, against anyone.

It doesn't matter how badass you think you are, if you can be overwhelmed by superior tactics or numbers.

That goes for everyone.

Martials have to run the gauntlet. Casters can bypass it.


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Yeah, Tucker's Kobolds...don't really work like they did in older editions. I mean, you can still pull off something like it, but players won't be "fearing" the kobolds anymore. There are too many ways to get around them.

Kobolds using murderholes, for instance? Gaseous form, mud body, dimension door, transmute rock to mud, cloudkill, obscuring mist, confusion, any summon, and invisibility sphere all shut that tactic down. Kobolds trying to "wear you down"? Protection from arrows, entropic field, and stoneskin all perfectly prevent most of that. Pit traps? Fly, and have a create pit yourself (cramped conditions aren't looking so smart when suddenly you have a pit beneath you and nowhere to go but down). Mobbing tactics? Gust of wind, a wall spell, or spike stones will settle that. Kobolds aren't letting you rest to replenish your spells? A rope trick should settle that, and if not, I think Leomund's got a tiny hut just for you.

And that's just off the top of my head. And sure, you might be saying, "But no wizard will have all those spells prepared." And you're right. Even a wizard with a decent idea of what he's getting into won't be ready for every contingency.

But guess how many of those spells the fighter gets? ;P


Kthulhu wrote:
*Double checking to make sure the original poster isn't a alias for one of the Paizo developers*

Wouldn't we get more thread locking and posts removed if that was the case?


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Yeah, Tucker's Kobolds...don't really work like they did in older editions. I mean, you can still pull off something like it, but players won't be "fearing" the kobolds anymore. There are too many ways to get around them.

Kobolds using murderholes, for instance? Gaseous form, mud body, dimension door, transmute rock to mud, cloudkill, obscuring mist, confusion, any summon, and invisibility sphere all shut that tactic down. Kobolds trying to "wear you down"? Protection from arrows, entropic field, and stoneskin all perfectly prevent most of that. Pit traps? Fly, and have a create pit yourself (cramped conditions aren't looking so smart when suddenly you have a pit beneath you and nowhere to go but down). Mobbing tactics? Gust of wind, a wall spell, or spike stones will settle that. Kobolds aren't letting you rest to replenish your spells? A rope trick should settle that, and if not, I think Leomund's got a tiny hut just for you.

And that's just off the top of my head. And sure, you might be saying, "But no wizard will have all those spells prepared." And you're right. Even a wizard with a decent idea of what he's getting into won't be ready for every contingency.

But guess how many of those spells the fighter gets? ;P

In before someone yells out "But it's a team game!" and pretends he made an actual point.


I feel like Gaseous Form or the New Shadow Form spell thing that apparently Occult Adventures is supposed to have (based on the Warlock Playtest) can pretty much make it through MOST of Tucker's Kobolds... Especially that Shadow Form spell (did I mention that spell looks legit as heck?)


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Athaleon wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Yeah, Tucker's Kobolds...don't really work like they did in older editions. I mean, you can still pull off something like it, but players won't be "fearing" the kobolds anymore. There are too many ways to get around them.

Kobolds using murderholes, for instance? Gaseous form, mud body, dimension door, transmute rock to mud, cloudkill, obscuring mist, confusion, any summon, and invisibility sphere all shut that tactic down. Kobolds trying to "wear you down"? Protection from arrows, entropic field, and stoneskin all perfectly prevent most of that. Pit traps? Fly, and have a create pit yourself (cramped conditions aren't looking so smart when suddenly you have a pit beneath you and nowhere to go but down). Mobbing tactics? Gust of wind, a wall spell, or spike stones will settle that. Kobolds aren't letting you rest to replenish your spells? A rope trick should settle that, and if not, I think Leomund's got a tiny hut just for you.

And that's just off the top of my head. And sure, you might be saying, "But no wizard will have all those spells prepared." And you're right. Even a wizard with a decent idea of what he's getting into won't be ready for every contingency.

But guess how many of those spells the fighter gets? ;P

In before someone yells out "But it's a team game!" and pretends he made an actual point.

He did make a point. The Fighter's the Mascot or the Waterboy for team Caster.


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Something something something I watched a Solar get destroyed in a toe-to-to with a 16th level fighter with absolutely no caster support beyond items. Amazing just how far the Disruptive tree and Step Up will take you...

Want to screw the casters? Put a timer on it.
"But I'm out of X level spells!"
Well, too bad for you!

Get rid of the 15min adventure day.
Slam the party with task
After task
After task
Make the caster actually THINK before he drops his high level spells.
PUNISH him for blowing all of his resources early.

Yeah, the martial runs the gauntlet while the caster bypasses it. But the martial will run it every time if needed. The caster will cry when he starts losing power.

The only thing the martial needs is a longer adventuring day.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Athaleon wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Yeah, Tucker's Kobolds...don't really work like they did in older editions. I mean, you can still pull off something like it, but players won't be "fearing" the kobolds anymore. There are too many ways to get around them.

Kobolds using murderholes, for instance? Gaseous form, mud body, dimension door, transmute rock to mud, cloudkill, obscuring mist, confusion, any summon, and invisibility sphere all shut that tactic down. Kobolds trying to "wear you down"? Protection from arrows, entropic field, and stoneskin all perfectly prevent most of that. Pit traps? Fly, and have a create pit yourself (cramped conditions aren't looking so smart when suddenly you have a pit beneath you and nowhere to go but down). Mobbing tactics? Gust of wind, a wall spell, or spike stones will settle that. Kobolds aren't letting you rest to replenish your spells? A rope trick should settle that, and if not, I think Leomund's got a tiny hut just for you.

And that's just off the top of my head. And sure, you might be saying, "But no wizard will have all those spells prepared." And you're right. Even a wizard with a decent idea of what he's getting into won't be ready for every contingency.

But guess how many of those spells the fighter gets? ;P

In before someone yells out "But it's a team game!" and pretends he made an actual point.
He did make a point. The Fighter's the Mascot or the Waterboy for team Caster.

That's the core rogue, the fighter at least has some feats to throw at them. What's one step up from towel boy?


graystone wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Athaleon wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Yeah, Tucker's Kobolds...don't really work like they did in older editions. I mean, you can still pull off something like it, but players won't be "fearing" the kobolds anymore. There are too many ways to get around them.

Kobolds using murderholes, for instance? Gaseous form, mud body, dimension door, transmute rock to mud, cloudkill, obscuring mist, confusion, any summon, and invisibility sphere all shut that tactic down. Kobolds trying to "wear you down"? Protection from arrows, entropic field, and stoneskin all perfectly prevent most of that. Pit traps? Fly, and have a create pit yourself (cramped conditions aren't looking so smart when suddenly you have a pit beneath you and nowhere to go but down). Mobbing tactics? Gust of wind, a wall spell, or spike stones will settle that. Kobolds aren't letting you rest to replenish your spells? A rope trick should settle that, and if not, I think Leomund's got a tiny hut just for you.

And that's just off the top of my head. And sure, you might be saying, "But no wizard will have all those spells prepared." And you're right. Even a wizard with a decent idea of what he's getting into won't be ready for every contingency.

But guess how many of those spells the fighter gets? ;P

In before someone yells out "But it's a team game!" and pretends he made an actual point.
He did make a point. The Fighter's the Mascot or the Waterboy for team Caster.
That's the core rogue, the fighter at least has some feats to throw at them. What's one step up from towel boy?

Mascot. At least the fans love him. The Towel/Waterboy has zero spotlight at all.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

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Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

Something something something I watched a Solar get destroyed in a toe-to-to with a 16th level fighter with absolutely no caster support beyond items. Amazing just how far the Disruptive tree and Step Up will take you...

Want to screw the casters? Put a timer on it.
"But I'm out of X level spells!"
Well, too bad for you!

Get rid of the 15min adventure day.
Slam the party with task
After task
After task
Make the caster actually THINK before he drops his high level spells.
PUNISH him for blowing all of his resources early.

Yeah, the martial runs the gauntlet while the caster bypasses it. But the martial will run it every time if needed. The caster will cry when he starts losing power.

The only thing the martial needs is a longer adventuring day.

A common thought. A common response is: "the martial has resources too, they're called hitpoints and it takes magic to bring them back (at a meaningful rate), else he has to call it quits too."


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Quote:
The only thing the martial needs is a longer adventuring day.

Oh, this again.

1) The martial also has finite daily resources, namely HP. The caster expends his resources to bypass the obstacles while the martial expends his to slog through them.

2) To suggest that a DM has to make a special effort to counter a certain class is to admit that class is overpowered.


The only way a longer adventuring day 'fixes' martials is if martials recover hit points at a ridiculous rate... perhaps something like level or level plus Constitution Modifier per minute out of combat.

EDIT: as a note... I actually really like recovery that takes time out of combat. It helps slow the game down so you don't get groups casting a ton of ten minute per level buffs and zergrushing as many encounters as possible.


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Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

Yeah, the martial runs the gauntlet while the caster bypasses it. But the martial will run it every time if needed. The caster will cry when he starts losing power.

The only thing the martial needs is a longer adventuring day.

If the martial can run the gauntlet without investing resources, so can the Druids animal companion, or the wizard's simulacra.

Also, I'd like to see a situation where you can exhaust the wizard but not the fighter, keeping in mind that the fighter's HP is not endless either.


Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

Something something something I watched a Solar get destroyed in a toe-to-to with a 16th level fighter with absolutely no caster support beyond items. Amazing just how far the Disruptive tree and Step Up will take you...

Want to screw the casters? Put a timer on it.
"But I'm out of X level spells!"
Well, too bad for you!

Get rid of the 15min adventure day.
Slam the party with task
After task
After task
Make the caster actually THINK before he drops his high level spells.
PUNISH him for blowing all of his resources early.

Yeah, the martial runs the gauntlet while the caster bypasses it. But the martial will run it every time if needed. The caster will cry when he starts losing power.

The only thing the martial needs is a longer adventuring day.

LOL Yeah, you know what poor shmuck need healing spells the most? Where are the fighters getting HP task after task after task? Non-casters are the ones hit hardest by no workdays. At will doesn't mean squat when HP runs out.


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Petty Alchemy wrote:
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

Something something something I watched a Solar get destroyed in a toe-to-to with a 16th level fighter with absolutely no caster support beyond items. Amazing just how far the Disruptive tree and Step Up will take you...

Want to screw the casters? Put a timer on it.
"But I'm out of X level spells!"
Well, too bad for you!

Get rid of the 15min adventure day.
Slam the party with task
After task
After task
Make the caster actually THINK before he drops his high level spells.
PUNISH him for blowing all of his resources early.

Yeah, the martial runs the gauntlet while the caster bypasses it. But the martial will run it every time if needed. The caster will cry when he starts losing power.

The only thing the martial needs is a longer adventuring day.

A common thought. A common response is: "the martial has resources too, they're called hitpoints and it takes magic to bring them back (at a meaningful rate), else he has to call it quits too."

Casters also have HP?

Wanding out of combat is sort of the go to thing, is it not?
Issue here is that the Martial's resource (HP) is universal. The caster's is situation.
Have Fly prepped when you need Invisibility? Tough cookies.
Spell failed because the foe made their save or the situation nullified it? Too bad.
Have HP? Good on you.


Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

Something something something I watched a Solar get destroyed in a toe-to-to with a 16th level fighter with absolutely no caster support beyond items. Amazing just how far the Disruptive tree and Step Up will take you...

Want to screw the casters? Put a timer on it.
"But I'm out of X level spells!"
Well, too bad for you!

Get rid of the 15min adventure day.
Slam the party with task
After task
After task
Make the caster actually THINK before he drops his high level spells.
PUNISH him for blowing all of his resources early.

Yeah, the martial runs the gauntlet while the caster bypasses it. But the martial will run it every time if needed. The caster will cry when he starts losing power.

The only thing the martial needs is a longer adventuring day.

I hear this a lot... I also hear a lot in retort:

"Good luck doing that without the mage giving you buffs or giving you the ability to fly.."

Oh and when you have yoru own personal Demi-plane... kinda hard to stop ya xD


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Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:


Casters also have HP?
Wanding out of combat is sort of the go to thing, is it not?
Issue here is that the Martial's resource (HP) is universal. The caster's is situation.
Have Fly prepped when you need Invisibility? Tough cookies.
Spell failed because the foe made their save or the situation nullified it? Too bad.
Have HP? Good on you.

Bought an expensive item of Gimped Fly when you needed an expensive item of Gimped Invisibility (either of which comes out of your WBL, i.e. represents a permanent resource expenditure)? Tough cookies.

Attacks failed because you rolled poorly, or you didn't have the right weapon to get through DR, or whiff due to concealment, or it flies and you're a melee character? Too bad.

What happens when the charges in the Healy Stick run out? The caster can make one at half price, or go somewhere that sells them, and his commute is much easier. The martial can only go somewhere that sells them.


PIXIE DUST wrote:

...

Oh and when you have yoru own personal Demi-plane... kinda hard to stop ya xD

Or if you want to pick something available at a lower level, teleport is pretty good at that sort of thing. Hard for the GM to press your resources if you can just travel to another continent on a whim.


Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
Petty Alchemy wrote:
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

Something something something I watched a Solar get destroyed in a toe-to-to with a 16th level fighter with absolutely no caster support beyond items. Amazing just how far the Disruptive tree and Step Up will take you...

Want to screw the casters? Put a timer on it.
"But I'm out of X level spells!"
Well, too bad for you!

Get rid of the 15min adventure day.
Slam the party with task
After task
After task
Make the caster actually THINK before he drops his high level spells.
PUNISH him for blowing all of his resources early.

Yeah, the martial runs the gauntlet while the caster bypasses it. But the martial will run it every time if needed. The caster will cry when he starts losing power.

The only thing the martial needs is a longer adventuring day.

A common thought. A common response is: "the martial has resources too, they're called hitpoints and it takes magic to bring them back (at a meaningful rate), else he has to call it quits too."

Casters also have HP?

Wanding out of combat is sort of the go to thing, is it not?
Issue here is that the Martial's resource (HP) is universal. The caster's is situation.
Have Fly prepped when you need Invisibility? Tough cookies.
Spell failed because the foe made their save or the situation nullified it? Too bad.
Have HP? Good on you.

1) Casters can regen HP much easier. Its called Wand of CLW or Wand of Inferneal Healing. Works really well...

2) Casters can DD out of combat, teleport, Planar Travel, ect. What is the martial doing? Withdraw actions?

3) Fly is a third level spell... invisibility is a second level spell. And even if you don't have invisibility memorized you can always leave open spell slots... use scrolls... or use similiar spells (Vanish and Improved Invisibility come to mind.) And there are very rarely times where you NEED ONE SPECIFIC SPELL to complete something. And you are also forgetting that in that scenerio, THE FIGHTER IS SCREWED NO MATTER WHAT. If its a case where you NEED invisibility, what is the fighter doing?

4) Made their spell? Cool, it happens, try something else. Or better yet! Cast a spell that allows NO SAVE. like, oh, idk, Maze? If "a situation nullified it" that just means the GM is going out of his way to punish the caster if it happens regularly (I am assuming you mean stuff like Anti-Magic Fields? Which, I might add hurts teh Fighter also... a lot). You could argue the same thing about the martial. In fact, there are more ways to shut down fighters than there is casters.


Oh! and the HP thing? If a fighter loses all his HP, tough cookies, roll a new character.

A caster? Depending on level he can legitmately laugh as he just immediately wakes up in one of his spare clones... or if he is a Beast Bonded Witch, is transferred over to his familiar.

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