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How is this even a question?
Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat, allowing the user to apply metamagic effects to spells (but not spell-like abilities) as they are cast.
Most of the metamagic feats are not worth a feat.Most aren't but those which are worth taking are crazily good for what they do. They are sort of balanced by forcing you to use higher level spell slots and therefore limiting the number of times you can use them and living with the lower DC. Things which let you get round those limitations are incredibly effective. Metamagic Rods, Magical Lineage, Wayang Spell Hunter, Staff of the Master Necromancer, all are among the most powerful effects in the game because cheating the cost on things like Dazing, Quicken or Persistent is just that good.
"Certain metamagic feats" being too good is different from "metamagic feats", as a whole, being OP. That is why I questioned the statement.
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Actually, letting a wizard use the rod to prepare the spell would significantly strengthen rods.
One of the drawbacks of a rod is that it has to be held when casting the spell, meaning you need a hand for the rod, in addition to a hand for somatic gestures possibly. And if you want to use a different rod, you have to drop or put away the one you are using.
On the other hand, if I can prep the spell then put the rod away for the day, that is even better.
Best yet is my bloat mage. The way you have it, I can prep 3 spell slots with my lesser dazing metamagic rod. I have (on average) 16 bloat points. Every three points gets me back one 3rd level slot exactly as it was when I cast it. That means my dazing metamagic rod gets me 8 dazing fireballs. (At level 7)
You can pull a similar trick with a rod of quicken and a first level pearl of power to get extra quickened spells off your metamagic rod.
(And if we apply the same logic to staff of the master, my bloat mage can fire off 7 quickened dazing fireballs, in addition to a dazing fireball)
This is another example of someone not liking how a rule works and reading it how they want to. To the OP since you are having trouble grasping the concept of this rule in combination with PFS just go to the PFS section and see what answers you get.
The rod does say the affect is added as the spell is cast. I dont know what is confusing about that. If you have another interpretation for that line of text I would like to hear it.
Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat, allowing the user to apply metamagic effects to spells (but not spell-like abilities) as they are cast.
OP is 100% incorrect. Good thing too, otherwise metamagic rods would be completely brokenly overpowered for wizards.
PFS will just dump him back here. It is a basic rules question, with no PFS specific elements.
I know. I just want him to know how PFS(the GM's and LT's) rule it. Of course he can continue to be stubborn, but he won't have the excuse of "I had not PFS guidance", or "I had no way of not knowing".
For example, if a wizard knows (and wants to prepare) Mage Armor, Magic Missile, and Shield, and Sleep, and he knows the Empower Spell feat, he can only prepare one spell with that feat and he will only use it once today. But if a sorcerer knows those same 4 spells (and has 4 slots) and that same feat, he might get to use it 4 times today.
A wizard can use a metamagic feat alot more than once per day. Just because he prepares one spell with a given metamagic feat, it doesn't mean that it is unavailable to do so with the same spell and/or other spells.
Your point still stands though. Sorcerers are extremely more flexible when it comes to metamagic feats, because they get to do it on the fly.
You sort of missed my post. I said he wanted to prepare all 4 of those spells, and 3 of them get no benefit from being Empowered, so he can only use it on Magic Missile. Yeah, he could prepare more than one Empowered magic missile but then he has to choose not to prepare something else.
Not the best example, because he wouldn't give up Shield, he would probably give up Fireball, but the point is, a sorcerer can apply metamagic on the fly to every spell if he wants to, while a wizard will almost certainly want to prepare some things at their normal version instead of using metamamagic and later that day he cannot change his mind the way a sorcerer can.
That extra flexibility for potentially extra power is, no doubt, why the original developers, way back in the last century, decided to penalize sorcerers a little bit. For game balance.
The only benefit a sorcerer has out of using a metamagic rod is that he gets to use the feat without actually having the feat.
I'd say that a good houserule would be to allow rods to be used as standard actions for sorcerers aswell. That way they'd have a bit more use out of them.
Isn't that exactly the same benefit a wizard gets?
Actually, they also both get the benefit of not using a higher slot, too.
As I read it, the nearest fly gains the benefits of the spell as it is cast.
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As I read it, the nearest fly gains the benefits of the spell as it is cast.
Apparently we each see RAW differently.
It must be FAQ'd!!
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As I read it, the nearest fly gains the benefits of the spell as it is cast.Apparently we each see RAW differently.
It must be FAQ'd!!
Just doing what I always do: bringing attention to literal, and selective, readings of the rules.
Obviously the rods give casters the benefits of the listed feat up to three times a day, anyone arguing against that needs to take a breath, grab a drink and read it again.
Admittedly, it would be hilarious if the rods actually affected flies, not the intended targets.
I find this dumb, it should either allow them to prepare them with the metamagic feat or make them cast the metamagic spell like a sorcerer.
Ok, A lot of good replies here. Let's keep going:
So, can I infer that since the sorc has to take a full round, so does the oracle?
Cleric, druid, etc. work like the wizard?
-But if they spontaneously cast a cure light or summon nature's ally, is it a full round?
*Please site sources, if any, because as previously said, this is for PFS.
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The CRB's Feats chapter doesn't say explicitly that any spontaneous caster applies metamagic like a sorceror or bard. Explicitly, it says that Sorcerors and Bards apply metamagic as the spell is cast, using a higher slot and a longer casting time, and Wizards and Divine casters prepare spells using metamagic, and that clerics and druids can apply metamagic to the limited spells they can spontaneously cast like a sorceror or bard does.
If you interpret this through absurd literalism, this could be taken to say that these are the ONLY classes that can use metamagic, other than the Arcanist which gets specific rules in its spell casting that describe how it uses metamagic. That is, of course, ridiculous.
If you read the Metamagic rules in the Feats chapter, it is apparent that there is an implicit delineation of two categories of casting: spontaneous and prepared. Spontaneous applies metamagic as it is cast, and prepared applies it when the spell is prepared. Normally prepared casters who use a special ability to cast spontaneously use the rules for spontaneous casters, unless there are other rules in the specific ability (such as in the wizard's Arcane Bond object, which forbids metamagic).
As others point out, the first line is not fluff. The way they work is you have them, and you get to apply the metamagic feat to the spell you cast.
You can tell the first line is not fluff because it calls out that it does not apply to spell-like abilities. This by itself denotes that the sentence is rules mechanics, as it calls out other rules mechanics explicitly.
Fluff rarely, if ever, calls out 3 specific pieces of rules terminology that have different meanings.
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Additionally, here is commentary from a former member of the Pathfinder Design Team ranting about the rods.
Honestly, I think all of the metamagic rods are cheesy and should be removed from the game. The metamagic feats are already annoying and weak and there's no strong incentive to take them, and on top of that you can pick up the rod as a cheap feat-in-a-can and not have to prepare the spell ahead of time, and on top of that, they can bypass the 9th-level spell limit (normally you can't quicken anything 6th or higher with the feat because there are no 10th-level spell slots), so the rods are even better than the feat.
The parenthetical statement is clearly at odds with the idea that the rods allow you to prepare the spells ahead of time using the metamagic feat, as if that were the case, you couldn't use the rod of quicken, despite what the statement above states.
Additionally, here is commentary from a former member of the Pathfinder Design Team ranting about the rods.
Honestly, I think all of the metamagic rods are cheesy and should be removed from the game. The metamagic feats are already annoying and weak and there's no strong incentive to take them, and on top of that you can pick up the rod as a cheap feat-in-a-can and not have to prepare the spell ahead of time, and on top of that, they can bypass the 9th-level spell limit (normally you can't quicken anything 6th or higher with the feat because there are no 10th-level spell slots), so the rods are even better than the feat.The parenthetical statement is clearly at odds with the idea that the rods allow you to prepare the spells ahead of time using the metamagic feat, as if that were the case, you couldn't use the rod of quicken, despite what the statement above states.
Great. I loved the quote. The question now is, who/when has to increase time? Other than the obvious sorcerer.
Ok, A lot of good replies here. Let's keep going:
So, can I infer that since the sorc has to take a full round, so does the oracle?
Cleric, druid, etc. work like the wizard?
-But if they spontaneously cast a cure light or summon nature's ally, is it a full round?*Please site sources, if any, because as previously said, this is for PFS.
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Given that the sorcerer and bard were the only spontaneous casters in the CRB - the clear intention is all spontaneous casters.
Please site sources? I pick...the World Trade Center. Someone run a CRB up there.
Oh, you meant CITE sources!
==Aelryinth
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But also from the PRD
Spontaneous Casting and Metamagic Feats: A cleric spontaneously casting a cure or inflict spell, or a druid spontaneously casting a summon nature's ally spell, can cast a metamagic version of it instead. Extra time is also required in this case. Casting a standard action metamagic spell spontaneously is a full-round action, and a spell with a longer casting time takes an extra full-round action to cast.
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As I read it, the nearest fly gains the benefits of the spell as it is cast.Apparently we each see RAW differently.
It must be FAQ'd!!
Just doing what I always do: bringing attention to literal, and selective, readings of the rules.
Obviously the rods give casters the benefits of the listed feat up to three times a day, anyone arguing against that needs to take a breath, grab a drink and read it again.
Admittedly, it would be hilarious if the rods actually affected flies, not the intended targets.
Metamagic RodsMetamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat, allowing the user to apply metamagic effects to spells (but not spell-like abilities) as they are cast. This does not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod's wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.
Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be used as a swift action).
No fly in the actual text of the rules, so if you want to joke about the rules, find something that is worth the joke in the rule.
The "on the fly" part was a comment by DM_Blake.- * -
The description is very clear "Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat, allowing the user to apply metamagic effects to spells (but not spell-like abilities) as they are cast.":
1) it contain the essence of a metamagic feat
2) that essence can be used and applied when the spell is cast.
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Additionally, here is commentary from a former member of the Pathfinder Design Team ranting about the rods.
Honestly, I think all of the metamagic rods are cheesy and should be removed from the game. The metamagic feats are already annoying and weak and there's no strong incentive to take them, and on top of that you can pick up the rod as a cheap feat-in-a-can and not have to prepare the spell ahead of time, and on top of that, they can bypass the 9th-level spell limit (normally you can't quicken anything 6th or higher with the feat because there are no 10th-level spell slots), so the rods are even better than the feat.The parenthetical statement is clearly at odds with the idea that the rods allow you to prepare the spells ahead of time using the metamagic feat, as if that were the case, you couldn't use the rod of quicken, despite what the statement above states.
How I love SKR when he write this stuff. I have always disliked how metamagic rods work. I have houseruled them away, substituting them with books that you study while preparing your feats. They give you access to the feat (with all of its costs when using it) for 24 hours at the cost of a longer preparation/refresh time.
Probably they are still too strong but at least there isn't the potential ability to cast 13th level spells.I agree that some metamagic is too weak for the cost, but that is a problem of how we can break up the cost. 1 spell level is a large difference.
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To the OP, you are simply wrong. Memorized casters apply the feat stored in the rod 3x a day as they cast the spell as a standard action 3xaday on three different spells.. Non-memorized caster apply the feat stored in the rod as they cast the spell as a full round action. 3xaday on three different spells.
The metamagic rods I would invest in ar empower, maximize, selective (selective is one of the best meta-magic rods imo) and quicken and maybe ectoplasmic if I was in a heavy undead game. A cool mythic meta magic rod would be a rod of channel power.
To weigh in on this topic myself, I think it's important to look at the actual text contained in many metamagic feats.
Benefit: You can alter a spell with a range of touch, close, or medium to increase its range to a higher range category, using the following order: touch, close, medium, and long.
Benefit: A stilled spell can be cast with no somatic components. Spells without somatic components are not affected.
Benefit: Casting a quickened spell is a swift action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 round or 1 full-round action cannot be quickened.
Note how the text of the feats themselves do not carry any caveat of at what point you can apply metamagic to the spells. It literally says nowhere in any metamagic feat that wizards have to apply the metamagic as they prepare the spells and that sorcerers have to apply the metamagic as the cast the spells. This is very important when you consider that metamagic rods state that you can use the appropriate metamagic as though using the appropriate feat. Since the feats themselves don't give you any specifics on how to apply the metamagic, you must turn to general rules for how to apply to metamagic to a spell.
In this particular situation of metamagic rods, we have, as other people have pointed out, the specifics and the general. And within the specifics and the general, we have the questions of: When is the metamagic applied? How is the casting time modified? How is the spell level modified?
For the wizard (or prepared spellcasters), the answers are:
When you prepare the spell.
Casting time unmodified (unless by the metamagic itself)
Spell level increased appropriately.
For the sorcerer (or spontaneous spellcasters), the answers are:
When you cast the spell.
Casting time increased according to spontaneous casting rules.
Spell level increased appropriately.
Now we bring ourselves to the specifics outlined by the metamagic rod rules. Metamagic rods specifically state that you apply the metamagic as the spell is cast, and they specifically state that the spell level is not increased. This is actually all that is necessary when you follow general rules, and thus the specific rule that sorcerers increase their casting time is actually redundant.
So now you apply the specifics to override any general rules, and you get the rules for how applying metamagic to a spell via a metamagic rod works.
For prepared spellcasters, the answers become:
When you cast the spell.
Casting time unmodified.
Spell level remains the same.
For spontaneous spellcasters, the answers become:
When you cast the spell.
Casting time increased appropriately.
Spell level remains the same.
TL;DR: Metamagic rods referencing "as if you were using the feat" refers you to a set of general rules, which you follow as normal. Then you replace any general rules with specific rules, such as the "as they are cast" condition conveniently located in the first sentence of the rules on metamagic rods.
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To the OP, you are simply wrong.
The OP already conceded the point seven posts above yours, so are you saying that his new perspective is wrong or are you simply taking the opportunity now to get in an "YOU'RE WRONG!" flame?
If it's the former, it would have been more amiable to say, "I agreed with your initial perspective, Karnos. Don't give up the ship now!" If it's the latter, it was unnecessarily grinding salt in a deep and infected wound festering from having bared his soul on an unforgiving forum; cruel.|
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To the OP, you are simply wrong.The OP already conceded the point seven posts above yours, so are you saying that his new perspective is wrong or are you simply taking the opportunity now to get in an "YOU'RE WRONG!" flame?
If it's the former, it would have been more amiable to say, "I agreed with your initial perspective, Karnos. Don't give up the ship now!" If it's the latter, it was unnecessarily grinding salt in a deep and infected wound festering from having bared his soul on an unforgiving forum; cruel.
Exchange the word placement of former and latter:)