Wizard+Rod does not equal Wizorer


Rules Questions

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I know this has been brought up in threads before, but I don't think the threads are correct, and rather than necro one, here we go:

I was GMing for a 12th level wizard recently. I'm thinking the whole time I have metamagic down pat. He pulls his metamagic rod in the middle of combat to cast a selective fireball. I say "you had to prepare a selective fireball" because as I believe, spontaneous casters can use them on the fly, prepared casters have to prepare them. He, and the table, scream at me, "No way! That is the point of rods, everyone uses them on the fly." After the game, I look up the rod description it says:

Paizo SRD wrote:

Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat, allowing the user to apply metamagic effects to spells (but not spell-like abilities) as they are cast. This does not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod's wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.

Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be used as a swift action).

My 12th level wizard stopped reading at the first bolded line, which I think is the fluff. But the first and second boldings seem to contradict each other. The first seems to imply on the fly. The second seems to clearly outline the mechanics and references the feat found here(bolding mine):

Paizo SRD wrote:

Metamagic Feats

As a spellcaster's knowledge of magic grows, he can learn to cast spells in ways slightly different from the norm. Preparing and casting a spell in such a way is harder than normal but, thanks to metamagic feats, is at least possible. Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up. Metamagic feats do not affect spell-like abilities.

Wizards and Divine Spellcasters: Wizards and divine spellcasters must prepare their spells in advance. During preparation, the character chooses which spells to prepare with metamagic feats (and thus which ones take up higher-level spell slots than normal).

No one is arguing the three times per day or the lack of level change. The bolded portion clearly illustrates spells cast with metamagic feats have to be prepared with metamagic and cast as normal. I understand the first bolded line says "as they are cast," but I don't know how you can get around the reference to the feat in the second bolded line. My best logical argument is that there is some "casting" that happens during preparation, but I can't find that quote anywhere.

If that is the way, it does makes the sorcerer reference in the original rod quote:

Quote:
A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be used as a swift action)

make all sorts of sense.

As my wizard was playing it, he trumped the sorcerer at the thing the sorcerer should be able do best! If the wizard has to prepare them as metamagic'd then there would be additional time preparing them, but since they are prepared that way, there is no additional casting time. The sorcerer on the other hand is casting a metamagic'd spell, which takes longer, hence the full round action. The whole wizard schtick is thinking ahead; Being a smarty pants. Sorcerers are spontaneous, no pun intended. If a wizard can use a rod the same way a sorcerer can, but without the increased time, that is broken. There is no point to play a sorcerer.

It seems to be that fluff line needs an errata or FAQ.

The Exchange

You believe that, in order to use a Metamagic Feat, you need to purchase and use a Metamagic Rod?


I've always read it as your player read it.

There are combat strategies for casters in various APs that back up that particular reading; Xanthir Vang, in particular, in Demon's Heresy comes to mind. He does not have the particular feat that rod allows to be applied to spells.

He is described as using a rod to cast several spells and then storing said rod once three charges were used. The spells he casts are not listed as having metamagic effects on his prepared spell list.

Note that the description of metamagic rods says absolutely nothing about a prepared spell caster having to use them while preparing their spells; if they worked the way you suggest wouldn't it mention that?

The wizard still needs to choose which spells to prepare each day, which is they central difference between them and sorcerers. Rods merely enhance the spells that they cast, not let them cast spontaneously.


I see your point, and you certainly could read it that owning a Metamagic Rod means you must use the feat the same way you would use it without the rod (if you personally took the feat yourself) with the added modifiers of NOT increasing the spell level and only using it a limited number of times per day.

But your point seems to completely disregard the "on the fly" bit that you quoted and bolded. Yeah, sure, you can say that this part is fluff and not applicable as a rule, but I think it makes more sense to try to find a ruling that includes all the text rather that disregarding inconvenient bits.

To that end, I suggest "Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat on the fly a specified number of times per day."

Reading that way incorporates all the text and clarifies it completely. That works for me.

Scarab Sages

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No, you are reading the rules incorrectly, there is no contradiction. The Rod allows you to adjust a prepared spell without a metamagic feat as if you had prepared it as a metamagic feat when it is being cast.

There is no fluff text in the description of the item, it is all rules text.

Metamagic rods are broken, and I ban them in home games.


karnos wrote:
If a wizard can use a rod the same way a sorcerer can, but without the increased time, that is broken. There is no point to play a sorcerer.

Being good at using metamagic rods is not the point of playing a sorcerer. When a wizard casts a spell, that's an option gone for the rest of the day. The sorcerer keeps all his options until the last slot is used up.


It doesn't need an errata or FAQ, you are simply reading it wrong.


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From the 3.5 FAQ:

Quote:

Does a wizard (or other spellcaster who prepares spells) with a metamagic rod (DMG 236) activate it when preparing spells (thus preparing three spells with a metamagic effect without paying the extra spell level cost) or when casting spells (allowing her to apply the metamagic effect to any three spells she likes)?

The latter. The metamagic rods function the same for any spellcaster—they allow her to apply a metamagic effect “on the fly” when casting the spell to be affected. The exception is the sorcerer (or by extension, any other spontaneous spellcaster) who must still use a full-round action to cast the affected spell.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yeah, you're players are correct on this one. Metamagic rods are just that good.


Imbicatus wrote:

No, you are reading the rules incorrectly, there is no contradiction. The Rod allows you to adjust a prepared spell without a metamagic feat as if you had prepared it as a metamagic feat when it is being cast.

There is no fluff text in the description of the item, it is all rules text.

Metamagic rods are broken, and I ban them in home games.

Broken?

Most of the metamagic feats are not worth a feat.


For those of you who are just saying I am reading it wrong, how do you resolve the text that says the rod confers the FEAT 3 times a day, and the FEAT says they have to be prepared that way?


wraithstrike wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

No, you are reading the rules incorrectly, there is no contradiction. The Rod allows you to adjust a prepared spell without a metamagic feat as if you had prepared it as a metamagic feat when it is being cast.

There is no fluff text in the description of the item, it is all rules text.

Metamagic rods are broken, and I ban them in home games.

Broken?

Most of the metamagic feats are not worth a feat.

Hah, that's true.

Back in 3.5 days, I houseruled almost all metamagic feats to add 1 fewer slots than the actual feat (slots that added 0 were basically free to cast, but if two were added to a single spell, they combined for a +1 level).

That worked pretty well, although it sort of added power to the Tier 1 classes that needed it the least. But, it did get people to actually take metamagic feats which was the idea.


DM_Blake wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

No, you are reading the rules incorrectly, there is no contradiction. The Rod allows you to adjust a prepared spell without a metamagic feat as if you had prepared it as a metamagic feat when it is being cast.

There is no fluff text in the description of the item, it is all rules text.

Metamagic rods are broken, and I ban them in home games.

Broken?

Most of the metamagic feats are not worth a feat.

Hah, that's true.

Back in 3.5 days, I houseruled almost all metamagic feats to add 1 fewer slots than the actual feat (slots that added 0 were basically free to cast, but if two were added to a single spell, they combined for a +1 level).

That worked pretty well, although it sort of added power to the Tier 1 classes that needed it the least. But, it did get people to actually take metamagic feats which was the idea.

It's for Pathfinder, not 3.5, and it's for PFS, no houserules.

Grand Lodge

karnos wrote:
For those of you who are just saying I am reading it wrong, how do you resolve the text that says the rod confers the FEAT 3 times a day, and the FEAT says they have to be prepared that way?

Easy. The rod says that it works as the spell is cast, and thus trumps the standard usage of the feat.


karnos wrote:
For those of you who are just saying I am reading it wrong, how do you resolve the text that says the rod confers the FEAT 3 times a day, and the FEAT says they have to be prepared that way?

I resolve it by realizing that it means the benefit of the feat, applied on the fly. I again point you at the linked portion of the D&D 3.5 FAQ that answers your question. You asked for a FAQ ruling and it turns out there's been one for about a decade. If you want to say that a 3.5 FAQ ruling does not apply to Pathfinder, then I think the ball is very clearly in your court on backing that position up with some documentation.


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wraithstrike wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

No, you are reading the rules incorrectly, there is no contradiction. The Rod allows you to adjust a prepared spell without a metamagic feat as if you had prepared it as a metamagic feat when it is being cast.

There is no fluff text in the description of the item, it is all rules text.

Metamagic rods are broken, and I ban them in home games.

Broken?

Most of the metamagic feats are not worth a feat.

Most, but not all, and the ones that ARE worth a feat are the ones Wizards are getting rods for.


karnos wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

No, you are reading the rules incorrectly, there is no contradiction. The Rod allows you to adjust a prepared spell without a metamagic feat as if you had prepared it as a metamagic feat when it is being cast.

There is no fluff text in the description of the item, it is all rules text.

Metamagic rods are broken, and I ban them in home games.

Broken?

Most of the metamagic feats are not worth a feat.

Hah, that's true.

Back in 3.5 days, I houseruled almost all metamagic feats to add 1 fewer slots than the actual feat (slots that added 0 were basically free to cast, but if two were added to a single spell, they combined for a +1 level).

That worked pretty well, although it sort of added power to the Tier 1 classes that needed it the least. But, it did get people to actually take metamagic feats which was the idea.

It's for Pathfinder, not 3.5, and it's for PFS, no houserules.

I wasn't suggesting a solution for the OP, I was simply corroborating what Wraithrstrike said with an anecdote.

Liberty's Edge

karnos wrote:
For those of you who are just saying I am reading it wrong, how do you resolve the text that says the rod confers the FEAT 3 times a day, and the FEAT says they have to be prepared that way?

The words 'on the fly' modify the way the feat is used. Seriously.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

When you can spend gold instead of taking a feat, you spend the gold and save the feats for other stuff that stacks on top.

That's why they buy the Rods.

==Aelryinth


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wraithstrike wrote:
Most of the metamagic feats are not worth a feat.

Most aren't but those which are worth taking are crazily good for what they do. They are sort of balanced by forcing you to use higher level spell slots and therefore limiting the number of times you can use them and living with the lower DC. Things which let you get round those limitations are incredibly effective. Metamagic Rods, Magical Lineage, Wayang Spell Hunter, Staff of the Master Necromancer, all are among the most powerful effects in the game because cheating the cost on things like Dazing, Quicken or Persistent is just that good.


FractalLaw wrote:
karnos wrote:
For those of you who are just saying I am reading it wrong, how do you resolve the text that says the rod confers the FEAT 3 times a day, and the FEAT says they have to be prepared that way?
I resolve it by realizing that it means the benefit of the feat, applied on the fly. I again point you at the linked portion of the D&D 3.5 FAQ that answers your question. You asked for a FAQ ruling and it turns out there's been one for about a decade. If you want to say that a 3.5 FAQ ruling does not apply to Pathfinder, then I think the ball is very clearly in your court on backing that position up with some documentation.

Pathfinder and 3.5 are different game, and have a ton of different rules. 3.5 FAQs don't apply, for any Pathfinder, and especially PFS.


Aelryinth wrote:

When you can spend gold instead of taking a feat, you spend the gold and save the feats for other stuff that stacks on top.

That's why they buy the Rods.

==Aelryinth

The Staff is better but it requires you to have the feats and is dirt cheap. Also spontaneous casters should probably be picking up more than a few as adding on the fly is incredibly effective.


karnos wrote:
FractalLaw wrote:
karnos wrote:
For those of you who are just saying I am reading it wrong, how do you resolve the text that says the rod confers the FEAT 3 times a day, and the FEAT says they have to be prepared that way?
I resolve it by realizing that it means the benefit of the feat, applied on the fly. I again point you at the linked portion of the D&D 3.5 FAQ that answers your question. You asked for a FAQ ruling and it turns out there's been one for about a decade. If you want to say that a 3.5 FAQ ruling does not apply to Pathfinder, then I think the ball is very clearly in your court on backing that position up with some documentation.
Pathfinder and 3.5 are different game, and have a ton of different rules. 3.5 FAQs don't apply, for any Pathfinder, and especially PFS.

The rules for Metamagic Rods did not change between 3.5 and Pathfinder. If the design intent for Metamagic Rods in 3.5 was as given in the FAQ ruling, then please show me where the design intent changed between 3.5 and Pathfinder.

Either that or take a step back and realize that everyone else in this thread is saying that you're wrong and there might just be a reason for them to do so.


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karnos, this is a case of specific overriding general.

General: prepared spells must be prepared with the metamagic feat.
Specific: metamagic rods are used at the time of casting and grant you the use of the feat when you cast the spell.

Pathfinder is full of specific vs general "contradictions".

However, if you want to ignore how everyone has understood this to work for the last 5 years (pathfinder) or 10 years (3.5+PF) then that is up to you.

Of course, you can ignore the entirety of the history of Pathfinder (ie: 3.5) and if that is the case you are in trouble. There are A LOT of Pathfinder rules that are not defined or poorly defined unless you look at 3.5 rules.

Example: What is "energy"? If you look just at Pathfinder a case for Positive and Negative "energy" being "energy" (and thus subject to effects that affect energy) could be made.
However, if you look at 3.5 it is well defined that energy is the traditional 4 elements + sonic and does not include Positive and Negative energy despite the name.


Gauss wrote:

karnos, this is a case of specific overriding general.

General: prepared spells must be prepared with the metamagic feat.
Specific: metamagic rods are used at the time of casting and grant you the use of the feat when you cast the spell.

Pathfinder is full of specific vs general "contradictions".

However, if you want to ignore how everyone has understood this to work for the last 5 years (pathfinder) or 10 years (3.5+PF) then that is up to you.

Note that he's said that this was for a Pathfinder Society game, so it isn't actually up to him. If this was his home game I'd be in 100% support of him house-ruling it however he wanted.


Gauss wrote:

karnos, this is a case of specific overriding general.

General: prepared spells must be prepared with the metamagic feat.
Specific: metamagic rods are used at the time of casting and grant you the use of the feat when you cast the spell.

Pathfinder is full of specific vs general "contradictions".

However, if you want to ignore how everyone has understood this to work for the last 5 years (pathfinder) or 10 years (3.5+PF) then that is up to you.

Of course, you can ignore the entirety of the history of Pathfinder (ie: 3.5) and if that is the case you are in trouble. There are A LOT of Pathfinder rules that are not defined or poorly defined unless you look at 3.5 rules.

Example: What is "energy"? If you look just at Pathfinder a case for Positive and Negative "energy" being "energy" (and thus subject to effects that affect energy) could be made.
However, if you look at 3.5 it is well defined that energy is the traditional 4 elements + sonic and does not include Positive and Negative energy despite the name.

Why does it only change the casting time for the sorc?


FractalLaw, he still has the choice to ignore how people have understood the rules regardless of it being PFS. Some PFS GMs do that until overruled by someone higher up or shown something that they consider "definitive proof".

Ie: this isn't about house ruling, it is about ignoring what people tell you and making an incorrect ruling.

Grand Lodge

karnos wrote:
Why does it only change the casting time for the sorc?

It's a legacy issue stemming from the fact that the designers of 3.0 and 3.5 thought that spontaneous casters would be the most broken thing ever, and thus they needed to be reigned in at every opportunity. I wish I was joking.


karnos wrote:
For those of you who are just saying I am reading it wrong, how do you resolve the text that says the rod confers the FEAT 3 times a day, and the FEAT says they have to be prepared that way?

The reverse is true.

How do YOU resolve the fact that the Rod say "on the fly"? Do you assume that a wizard getting up in the morning and preparing some spells with his metamagic rod is "on the fly"? (Hint: that's definitely not "on the fly").

Note: I don't count completely ignoring the "on the fly" wording by hanging the "fluff" label on it and pretending it no longer applies.

So, if the rod "confers the FEAT on the fly 3 times a day, and the FEAT says they have to be prepared on the fly (because Rod) that way" - how do you reconcile that without ignoring "on the fly"?


karnos, why does it matter? Strictly speaking, it doesn't.

It also changes the casting time for ANY spontaneously cast spell. That includes Oracle spells, Cleric (spontaneous) cure spells, Arcanist spells, and Druid (spontaneous) nature's ally spells. It isn't just about Sorcerers.

Rules don't have to be "fair" which is what you seem to have an issue with here. It would be nice if they were fair, but they aren't in this game.
Many people believe that spontaneous casters are unfairly penalized when it comes to metamagic (or delayed spell levels or whatever). That is why they house rule them (which you cannot do in PFS).

An "unfair rule" aspect to this rule does not invalidate the rule. The rule is that rods can be used on the fly to grant metamagic to anyone who uses them. You do not have to prepare them with the rod.


karnos wrote:
Gauss wrote:

karnos, this is a case of specific overriding general.

General: prepared spells must be prepared with the metamagic feat.
Specific: metamagic rods are used at the time of casting and grant you the use of the feat when you cast the spell.

Pathfinder is full of specific vs general "contradictions".

However, if you want to ignore how everyone has understood this to work for the last 5 years (pathfinder) or 10 years (3.5+PF) then that is up to you.

Of course, you can ignore the entirety of the history of Pathfinder (ie: 3.5) and if that is the case you are in trouble. There are A LOT of Pathfinder rules that are not defined or poorly defined unless you look at 3.5 rules.

Example: What is "energy"? If you look just at Pathfinder a case for Positive and Negative "energy" being "energy" (and thus subject to effects that affect energy) could be made.
However, if you look at 3.5 it is well defined that energy is the traditional 4 elements + sonic and does not include Positive and Negative energy despite the name.

Why does it only change the casting time for the sorc?

That's a good question. I've personally viewed it as it keeping with the design philosophy that spontaneous casters need longer to work metamagic in to their spells, but it honestly still seems to reduce the efficacy of the rods to me. I've never actually GM'ed a home game where a spontaneous caster wants to use a rod, but in that case I'd probably be comfortable house-ruling it so that they were standard actions.


On the fly does mean on the fly.

I do think though that a sorcerer using a rod shouldn't take more time if a wizard using a rod wouldn't. Obviously the rules don't agree, but that is one thing that I think is bad design.


DM_Blake wrote:


So, if the rod "confers the FEAT on the fly 3 times a day, and the FEAT says they have to be prepared on the fly (because Rod) that way" - how do you reconcile that without ignoring "on the fly"?

It doesn't say that. That language is clear. What it does say is that it confers the ability to use the feat.

I get the specific trumps general idea. If your reading is correct, there is no point for the sorc time penalty. If the other reading is correct, the sorc time clause makes sense, and there is no specific. The general fits.

Grand Lodge

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karnos wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:


So, if the rod "confers the FEAT on the fly 3 times a day, and the FEAT says they have to be prepared on the fly (because Rod) that way" - how do you reconcile that without ignoring "on the fly"?

It doesn't say that. That language is clear. What it does say is that it confers the ability to use the feat.

I get the specific trumps general idea. If your reading is correct, there is no point for the sorc time penalty. If the other reading is correct, the sorc time clause makes sense, and there is no specific. The general fits.

You are correct, there is no point for the penalty to spontaneous casters, but it's there anyway. That in no way supports your premise that the item doesn't do what it says it does.

Liberty's Edge

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You're ignoring everything from this first part of the feat:

Quote:
Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat, allowing the user to apply metamagic effects to spells (but not spell-like abilities) as they are cast. This does not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod's wielder.

1. Why would you assume something is fluff when that fluff is contradicted by the rest of the text?

2. Why would they mention that it still provokes to cast the spell when, assuming your reading of the 'fluff', there would be no reason to think otherwise?

Liberty's Edge

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karnos wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:


So, if the rod "confers the FEAT on the fly 3 times a day, and the FEAT says they have to be prepared on the fly (because Rod) that way" - how do you reconcile that without ignoring "on the fly"?

It doesn't say that. That language is clear. What it does say is that it confers the ability to use the feat.

I get the specific trumps general idea. If your reading is correct, there is no point for the sorc time penalty. If the other reading is correct, the sorc time clause makes sense, and there is no specific. The general fits.

Just wondering, are you familiar, at all, with the phrase 'on the fly'?

Did you note that it's actually in the wording?


It says that it confers the ability to use the feat as the spell is cast ("as they are cast"). If that isn't on the fly then I don't know what is.

General: You prepare the spell with the feat.
Specific: You use the feat as the spell is cast.

This really cannot be any clearer.

The sorcerer time clause is not relevant to whether or not you can use the rod to benefit from a metamagic feat as the spell is cast.


As for the Sorcerer time penalty, that is a function of the Sorcerer class and how they interact with Metamagic feats.

Why?

I don't know, some game designers decided it should work that way - a decision that was made about 17 years ago, give or take.

I suspect it's because without that extra time, sorcerers's potential use of metamagic would be MUCH more powerful than wizards' would be.

For example, if a wizard knows (and wants to prepare) Mage Armor, Magic Missile, and Shield, and Sleep, and he knows the Empower Spell feat, he can only prepare one spell with that feat and he will only use it once today. But if a sorcerer knows those same 4 spells (and has 4 slots) and that same feat, he might get to use it 4 times today.

On the surface, it looks like metamagic makes sorcerers much more flexible and potentially they get better use of each metamagic feat they learn. Compared to wizards, that is.

So the designers added a casting time extender to make it a little less overpowered (or whatever word they thought applicable).

Just a guess, but I bet I'm close.

Then one day someone came up with Metamagic rods and saw the same potential for them to benefit sorcerers somewhat more than wizards, for the same reason. And that guy decided to apply the standard time-factor that sorcerers ALREADY HAD WITH ALL METAMAGIC to the use of rods, too.

In short, for whatever reason, the game designers of antiquity decided osrcerers needed to slow down when using metamagic and the designer who created the rods applied the existing rule to using rods too.

It's probably just that simple.

Sczarni

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RAW a Metamagic Rod can only be used when in physical contact with a creature of the Musca genus.


Specific overrules general. In this case the specific exception from the metamagic rod listing overrules the general metamagic rules.

Every table I have ever played at has he rod allowing you to metamagic the spell at the time it is cast, not memorized. It even says so in the item description. If it did not mean to alter the spell at the time of casting the wording would not be there.

Silver Crusade

OP-QUOTE:
karnos wrote:

I know this has been brought up in threads before, but I don't think the threads are correct, and rather than necro one, here we go:

I was GMing for a 12th level wizard recently. I'm thinking the whole time I have metamagic down pat. He pulls his metamagic rod in the middle of combat to cast a selective fireball. I say "you had to prepare a selective fireball" because as I believe, spontaneous casters can use them on the fly, prepared casters have to prepare them. He, and the table, scream at me, "No way! That is the point of rods, everyone uses them on the fly." After the game, I look up the rod description it says:

Paizo SRD wrote:

Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat, allowing the user to apply metamagic effects to spells (but not spell-like abilities) as they are cast. This does not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod's wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.

Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be used as a swift action).

My 12th level wizard stopped reading at the first bolded line, which I think is the fluff. But the first and second boldings seem to contradict each other. The first seems to imply on the fly. The second seems to clearly outline the mechanics and references the feat found here(bolding mine):

Paizo SRD wrote:

Metamagic Feats

As a spellcaster's knowledge of magic grows, he can learn to cast spells in ways slightly
...

Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. Then, Wizards and Divine Spellcasters: Wizards and divine spellcasters must prepare their spells in advance. During preparation, the character chooses which spells to prepare with metamagic feats (and thus which ones take up higher-level spell slots than normal). from here
So "only the ability to use the given feat..." followed by "Wizards and divine spellcasters must prepare their spells in advance." means that even with a metamagic rod, Wizards and Divine STILL must prepare the spell ahead of time.

Grand Lodge

Incorrect, for the reasons already spelled out in this thread.

Silver Crusade

Salazar wrote:
Edenwaith wrote:
** spoiler omitted **
...

Metamagic Rods Corerule Book Page 464: Metamagic Rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat allowing the user to apply metamagic effects to a spell AS THEY ARE CAST.

Specific overrides general.

Page 484 but I'll let that slide. People like to stop reading when they find the answer they like. Let's read the second paragraph under Metamagic Rods on that same page. "Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be used as a swift action). You see? You still use the rod as you use the feat. For Wizards, that means preparing ahead of time. Paizo is NOT infallible, their is definitely information here that contradicts itself. They explained it for the Sorcerer how it was as if having the feat, they (Paizo) probably thought that good enough instead of detailing EVERY possible class and situation. It obviously needs a FAQ, or expect table variation.

Liberty's Edge

Edenwaith wrote:
Salazar wrote:
Edenwaith wrote:
** spoiler omitted **
...

Metamagic Rods Corerule Book Page 464: Metamagic Rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat allowing the user to apply metamagic effects to a spell AS THEY ARE CAST.

Specific overrides general. Page 484 but I'll let that slide. People like to stop reading when they find the answer they like. Let's read the second paragraph under Metamagic Rods on that same page. "Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be used as a swift action). You see? You still use the rod as you use the feat. For Wizards, that means preparing ahead of time. Paizo is NOT infallible, their is definitely information here that contradicts itself. They explained it for the Sorcerer how it was as if having the feat, they (Paizo) probably thought that good enough instead of detailing EVERY possible class and situation. It obviously needs a FAQ, or expect table variation.

"On the fly", hello?


Also, just because a Sorcerer must cast it like he had the feat, that doesn't mean a wizard does.

Scarab Sages

Edenwaith wrote:
Salazar wrote:
Edenwaith wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Metamagic Rods Corerule Book Page 464: Metamagic Rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat allowing the user to apply metamagic effects to a spell AS THEY ARE CAST.

Specific overrides general.

Page 484 but I'll let that slide. People like to stop reading when they find the answer they like. Let's read the second paragraph under Metamagic Rods on that same page. "Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be used as a swift action). You see? You still use the rod as you use the feat. For Wizards, that means preparing ahead of time. Paizo is NOT infallible, their is definitely information here that contradicts itself. They explained it for the Sorcerer how it was as if having the feat, they (Paizo) probably thought that good enough instead of detailing EVERY possible class and situation. It obviously needs a FAQ, or expect table variation.

Except the rod is use activated. It must be activated while casting the spell. If it allowed wizards to use the rod while preparing the spell, then they would not need to have the rod in hand when casting the spell, because it was already used when prepared. This gives wizards a bigger advantage than the current paradigm, because they can simply prepare those spells with the rod, and then have the hand free for other purposes.


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A really strong issue is that wizards can carry over prepared spells into a new day, and the rod is refreshed. This would, with enough prep time, let them use a single rod an unlimited number of times in preparing their spells. I think this is one of the major reasons it is required at the time of casting.

While a simple fix for this would be to not let the rod be used again until those spells are cast, and to make the rod a material focus for any spell prepared using it, such is not currently the case.

While I agree that prepared casters get an unneeded boost from rods, and spontaneous ones are penalized for being spontaneous, that is the intent of the rules.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

1 person marked this as a favorite.
karnos wrote:
For those of you who are just saying I am reading it wrong, how do you resolve the text that says the rod confers the FEAT 3 times a day, and the FEAT says they have to be prepared that way?

We don't agree with your interpretation.

We interpret the Rod rules to effectively say "just because you can apply this feat on the fly, doesn't mean this allows you to memorize spells with the meta magic feat already applied."


Wizards definitely do not need to possess the feat in order to use the corresponding rod. Metamagic rods have always worked this way and this is the first time I've heard about someone misunderstanding them.

In addition to the above points people have made, let me highlight a few other sentences which should emphasize the rod's mechanics:

Quote:
A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod's wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.

These few sentences imply that the rod's metamagic feat may not (and probably is not) possessed by the wielder.

Quote:
Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day.

This sentence is here to let the reader know that the rod's feat is only for use with the rod a specific number of times per day. If the wielder was required to have the feat, there would be no reason to explain that the rod does not confer the feat to the owner.

Quote:
A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be used as a swift action).

Again, this sentence only makes sense if the rod can be used by casters who don't possess the feat.


DM_Blake wrote:


For example, if a wizard knows (and wants to prepare) Mage Armor, Magic Missile, and Shield, and Sleep, and he knows the Empower Spell feat, he can only prepare one spell with that feat and he will only use it once today. But if a sorcerer knows those same 4 spells (and has 4 slots) and that same feat, he might get to use it 4 times today.

A wizard can use a metamagic feat alot more than once per day. Just because he prepares one spell with a given metamagic feat, it doesn't mean that it is unavailable to do so with the same spell and/or other spells.

Your point still stands though. Sorcerers are extremely more flexible when it comes to metamagic feats, because they get to do it on the fly.

The only benefit a sorcerer has out of using a metamagic rod is that he gets to use the feat without actually having the feat.
I'd say that a good houserule would be to allow rods to be used as standard actions for sorcerers aswell. That way they'd have a bit more use out of them.

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