Shoanti

Karnos's page

FullStarFullStarFullStar Venture-Captain, Nevada—Reno 8 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 31 Organized Play characters.


RSS

Lantern Lodge

Cheapy wrote:

Additionally, here is commentary from a former member of the Pathfinder Design Team ranting about the rods.

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Honestly, I think all of the metamagic rods are cheesy and should be removed from the game. The metamagic feats are already annoying and weak and there's no strong incentive to take them, and on top of that you can pick up the rod as a cheap feat-in-a-can and not have to prepare the spell ahead of time, and on top of that, they can bypass the 9th-level spell limit (normally you can't quicken anything 6th or higher with the feat because there are no 10th-level spell slots), so the rods are even better than the feat.
The parenthetical statement is clearly at odds with the idea that the rods allow you to prepare the spells ahead of time using the metamagic feat, as if that were the case, you couldn't use the rod of quicken, despite what the statement above states.

Great. I loved the quote. The question now is, who/when has to increase time? Other than the obvious sorcerer.

karnos wrote:

Ok, A lot of good replies here. Let's keep going:

So, can I infer that since the sorc has to take a full round, so does the oracle?

Cleric, druid, etc. work like the wizard?
-But if they spontaneously cast a cure light or summon nature's ally, is it a full round?

*Please site sources, if any, because as previously said, this is for PFS.

Lantern Lodge

Ok, A lot of good replies here. Let's keep going:

So, can I infer that since the sorc has to take a full round, so does the oracle?

Cleric, druid, etc. work like the wizard?
-But if they spontaneously cast a cure light or summon nature's ally, is it a full round?

*Please site sources, if any, because as previously said, this is for PFS.

Lantern Lodge

DM_Blake wrote:


So, if the rod "confers the FEAT on the fly 3 times a day, and the FEAT says they have to be prepared on the fly (because Rod) that way" - how do you reconcile that without ignoring "on the fly"?

It doesn't say that. That language is clear. What it does say is that it confers the ability to use the feat.

I get the specific trumps general idea. If your reading is correct, there is no point for the sorc time penalty. If the other reading is correct, the sorc time clause makes sense, and there is no specific. The general fits.

Lantern Lodge

Gauss wrote:

karnos, this is a case of specific overriding general.

General: prepared spells must be prepared with the metamagic feat.
Specific: metamagic rods are used at the time of casting and grant you the use of the feat when you cast the spell.

Pathfinder is full of specific vs general "contradictions".

However, if you want to ignore how everyone has understood this to work for the last 5 years (pathfinder) or 10 years (3.5+PF) then that is up to you.

Of course, you can ignore the entirety of the history of Pathfinder (ie: 3.5) and if that is the case you are in trouble. There are A LOT of Pathfinder rules that are not defined or poorly defined unless you look at 3.5 rules.

Example: What is "energy"? If you look just at Pathfinder a case for Positive and Negative "energy" being "energy" (and thus subject to effects that affect energy) could be made.
However, if you look at 3.5 it is well defined that energy is the traditional 4 elements + sonic and does not include Positive and Negative energy despite the name.

Why does it only change the casting time for the sorc?

Lantern Lodge

FractalLaw wrote:
karnos wrote:
For those of you who are just saying I am reading it wrong, how do you resolve the text that says the rod confers the FEAT 3 times a day, and the FEAT says they have to be prepared that way?
I resolve it by realizing that it means the benefit of the feat, applied on the fly. I again point you at the linked portion of the D&D 3.5 FAQ that answers your question. You asked for a FAQ ruling and it turns out there's been one for about a decade. If you want to say that a 3.5 FAQ ruling does not apply to Pathfinder, then I think the ball is very clearly in your court on backing that position up with some documentation.

Pathfinder and 3.5 are different game, and have a ton of different rules. 3.5 FAQs don't apply, for any Pathfinder, and especially PFS.

Lantern Lodge

DM_Blake wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

No, you are reading the rules incorrectly, there is no contradiction. The Rod allows you to adjust a prepared spell without a metamagic feat as if you had prepared it as a metamagic feat when it is being cast.

There is no fluff text in the description of the item, it is all rules text.

Metamagic rods are broken, and I ban them in home games.

Broken?

Most of the metamagic feats are not worth a feat.

Hah, that's true.

Back in 3.5 days, I houseruled almost all metamagic feats to add 1 fewer slots than the actual feat (slots that added 0 were basically free to cast, but if two were added to a single spell, they combined for a +1 level).

That worked pretty well, although it sort of added power to the Tier 1 classes that needed it the least. But, it did get people to actually take metamagic feats which was the idea.

It's for Pathfinder, not 3.5, and it's for PFS, no houserules.

Lantern Lodge

For those of you who are just saying I am reading it wrong, how do you resolve the text that says the rod confers the FEAT 3 times a day, and the FEAT says they have to be prepared that way?

Lantern Lodge

3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

I know this has been brought up in threads before, but I don't think the threads are correct, and rather than necro one, here we go:

I was GMing for a 12th level wizard recently. I'm thinking the whole time I have metamagic down pat. He pulls his metamagic rod in the middle of combat to cast a selective fireball. I say "you had to prepare a selective fireball" because as I believe, spontaneous casters can use them on the fly, prepared casters have to prepare them. He, and the table, scream at me, "No way! That is the point of rods, everyone uses them on the fly." After the game, I look up the rod description it says:

Paizo SRD wrote:

Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat, allowing the user to apply metamagic effects to spells (but not spell-like abilities) as they are cast. This does not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod's wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.

Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be used as a swift action).

My 12th level wizard stopped reading at the first bolded line, which I think is the fluff. But the first and second boldings seem to contradict each other. The first seems to imply on the fly. The second seems to clearly outline the mechanics and references the feat found here(bolding mine):

Paizo SRD wrote:

Metamagic Feats

As a spellcaster's knowledge of magic grows, he can learn to cast spells in ways slightly different from the norm. Preparing and casting a spell in such a way is harder than normal but, thanks to metamagic feats, is at least possible. Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up. Metamagic feats do not affect spell-like abilities.

Wizards and Divine Spellcasters: Wizards and divine spellcasters must prepare their spells in advance. During preparation, the character chooses which spells to prepare with metamagic feats (and thus which ones take up higher-level spell slots than normal).

No one is arguing the three times per day or the lack of level change. The bolded portion clearly illustrates spells cast with metamagic feats have to be prepared with metamagic and cast as normal. I understand the first bolded line says "as they are cast," but I don't know how you can get around the reference to the feat in the second bolded line. My best logical argument is that there is some "casting" that happens during preparation, but I can't find that quote anywhere.

If that is the way, it does makes the sorcerer reference in the original rod quote:

Quote:
A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be used as a swift action)

make all sorts of sense.

As my wizard was playing it, he trumped the sorcerer at the thing the sorcerer should be able do best! If the wizard has to prepare them as metamagic'd then there would be additional time preparing them, but since they are prepared that way, there is no additional casting time. The sorcerer on the other hand is casting a metamagic'd spell, which takes longer, hence the full round action. The whole wizard schtick is thinking ahead; Being a smarty pants. Sorcerers are spontaneous, no pun intended. If a wizard can use a rod the same way a sorcerer can, but without the increased time, that is broken. There is no point to play a sorcerer.

It seems to be that fluff line needs an errata or FAQ.