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A Lyre of Building lets you do 600 man-days of work, and 600 more per successful check. It is usable once a week.
I am in a Skulls & Shackles campaign. I plan to get one and use it to help build a fleet of ships, and perhaps also other stuff to sell for crafting communication devices. I expect using it for improving my own WBL will not be permitted.
So. How much is that 600 man-days worth of work worth?
Searching on the net, I found a reference for building a tall ship taking 30,000 man-days. A standard ship in S&S is about 10,000 gp. This means the average shipbuilder takes about 3 days to make 1 gp of ship (=3+ sp/day). Since unskilled laborers make 1 sp/day, this seems reasonable. I think I should have the 1/3 price of the ship in materials, but the Lyre will add to the other 2/3 price.
Should I focus on the time or the gold? I think the gold will be easier to handle. So....
My thinking is that I should use the downtime rules with me as the worker and using my craft (shipbuilding) skill at Take-10. That means my skill nets me 2.3 gp (effective skill level take-10 is 23) per man-day, or 1,380 gp per hour of playing. It will take about 5 hours of playing to complete a ship.
While I can also Take-10 on the perform skill, and auto succeed, I expect I will have to roll it. Not worried about that aspect. Still, I think I should be able to try for a full workday of 8 hours.
These are my questions:
1 Does this sound reasonable?
2 How can I improve my craft skill? I already have Crafter’s Fortune.
3 How can I improve my profession? Can I get a masterwork lyre to enchant and retain the +2 Circumstance bonus? Currently I have a 10, but when I level, I can put a rank in and have a 14. This translates to 18% (32%) chance of making a ship in one day, or 52% (81%). [Parenthetical is for masterwork instrument bonus.] I don’t want to put more ranks in, as I am only getting 2+Int for the level rather than the 8+Int for most of the previous levels (multiclassed). I already have the Circlet of Persuasion.
4 What else should I make, without upsetting WBL?
/cevah
Given that the lyre describes the man-hours it produces per amount of time played, this seems like the most appropriate unit to use. You get 600 man hours of labour per hour played, DC 18 performance check per hour.
Playing for 8 hours per day will get you 4800 man hours of work, or about one completed ship per week (if each one takes 30000 man hours). This seems reasonable to me.
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Unless your GM is very permissive it's not going to work sadly.
The lyre is also useful with respect to building. Once a week, its strings can be strummed so as to produce chords that magically construct buildings, mines, tunnels, ditches, etc.
It's pretty specific about the type of thing it creates and a ship doesn't seem remotely close to those examples to be honest, it's not just a flat 600 man hours of work, it's creating a pretty narrow range of things.
It may not work for ships, but it will work with other stuff.
That still leaves the questions I asked:
1 Does this sound reasonable?
2 How can I improve my craft skill?
3 How can I improve my profession?
4 What else should I make, without upsetting WBL?
/cevah
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It's pretty specific about the type of thing it creates.
Make boat houses. That sail really fast :-P just make sure your GM is cool with that.
Seriously though, I think the suggestions listed with this item are flavored to sound like castle building, but they are copied all the way from 2nd edition, or wherever it first appeared ( which I believe was next to mattock of the titans and titan maul which are even better together for building and then destroying castles, or perhaps destroying and then rebuilding, mwahahah).
So RAW, "etc." in a magic item or spell usually means go to RAI, where a ship may/ may not fit its original purpose depending on the GM and party's desires, but who's to say that a boat is so different from a moat? Especially in a campaign setting built around floating fortresses.
After all, the Greek oracles proclaimed 'Athens would be protected by a wooden wall', and they went and built an armada that served them pretty well for a century or two.
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Bracers of the Glib Entertainer will grant a +5 on your Perform skill, making it pretty much auto succeed, add in a Ring of Sustenance and for an investment of 10k or so you can now play the Lyre 22 hours solid without any trouble so long as you're in a safe place, that should be plenty long enough to make almost anything you can think of. As an added bonus both magic items are useful to have in general adventuring as well (Glibness is absolutely amazing!)
@Suthainn: The bracers are a competence bonus, just like the circlet I already have. Since I have already improved the circlet to +5 (GM approved), the bracers won't help any. :-/
@Oli Ironbar:
The lyre is also useful with respect to actual building. Once a week its strings can be strummed so as to produce chords that magically construct buildings, mines, tunnels, ditches, or whatever. The effect produced in but three turns of playing is equal to the work of 100 men laboring for three days.
A check must be made whenever the lyre is played. Under normal circumstances, a false chord is sounded on a roll of 1-3 on 1d20. (Characters with the musical instrument proficiency play a false chord only on a roll of 1.) If the player of the lyre is under physical or mental attack, the chance of a false chord increases to 1-10. (Proficient characters resolve a proficiency check by the standard rules under these circumstances.) If a false chord is struck, all effects of the lyre are 20% likely to be negated.
It is the ", etc" (which replaced ", or whatever") that leaves to door open to building a ship if the GM wants.
@Everyone: I may not be able to make ships, but surely I can make something I can sell/trade for ships. With that out of the way, what other ideas can you all come up with.
/cevah
There is a teamwork feat called Ensemble. It allows up to 4 others to give you Aid Another bonuses to you performance checks. If you happen to be an Inquisitor 3/Bard X, with Solo Tactics, and you happen to have 4 "Helpful" Halflings as allies, that could be a +16 on the performance.... Assuming the Halflings didn't all have the ensemble feat..
Now if one were to put out an ad - looking to hire a few helpful Halflings that are trained in ensemble performances... Even better!!!!
Ok.., this may be a corner case, and not super practical... But come on, +16!!!!!
Wait... Does beating the DC18 by huge amounts increase the rate at which the lyre can build things?... Like if you hit double the DC (36), can 30 minutes of playing produce the work of 200 humans laboring for 3 days (instead of 100)?
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@Suthainn: The bracers are a competence bonus, just like the circlet I already have. Since I have already improved the circlet to +5 (GM approved), the bracers won't help any. :-/
Doh, I forgot that, there's still a few spells that might help.
Tap Inner Beauty for a +2 insight.
Bestow Insight for a +2 to +6 insight bonus (and the amazing ability to roll twice and pick the best).
Not sure if there's anything for a sacred bonus outside class abilities, nothing springs to mind.
@Suthainn: Great spells. Already have Tap Inner Beauty. One problem. Checks occur by the hour, but the spells are minute per level. They won't last long enough. Having someone time the other spell to when I need a check is a little unsatisfying. If it were 10m/l, getting 2 or 3 checks might work.
Keep the ideas coming.
/cevah
Strange idea, assuming you can use the lyre to build a ship. and as far as i know you still must have 1/3 the cost in mats on hand. could you use a ship or many ships to be broken down and remade as a more expensive ship?
i am all for this being proven to be wrong or not work, ect.
and as this is for skull and shackles why not use the infamy disrepute sub system that is there. yes it will eat up a lot of disrepute but heroism can be used by a non caster.
The Lyre of Building is an interesting magic item in that in seems to interact directly with the crafting system, yet has absolutely no rules for how it does so. My interpretation is that it can produce essentially unskilled labor, which probably in and of itself is not sufficient to construct a boat, but probably could speed up a variety of the tasks.
I don't think you will find a definitive rules answer though, you will have to simply come to some agreement with your GM.
I will note though that if, when playing a Pirate, you are looking at clever ways to build ships, you are doing it wrong. The whole point of being a Pirate is that other people build and buy ships, and you steal them. That is far cheaper.
That said, every pirate should have a Lyre of Building, not because it can build ships but because a ship is an inanimate object that the Lyre can protect for 30 minutes a day.
I really like interesting items such as the lyre and increasingly resent the necessity of items that boost hit/ac/ability scores etc.
If you know a divination wizard/arcanist Diviner's Fortune can give 1/2 wizard/arcanist level insight bonus to skill checks.
Just a quick note on the math, the lyre is better than you are giving it credit for. The lyre produces "The effect produced in 30 minutes of playing is equal to the work of 100 humans laboring for 3 days.", using an 8 hour day as standard (which pops up in other places in the rules for crafting if I recall correctly) that is 100x8x3 hours of work produced every 30 minutes of playing which equals 4,800 hours of work per check you need to make.
In regards to what can be made, as always it's up to the GM but since it can make buildings and mines it can certainly do work that requires skilled labourers and the "etc" seems to indicate it is capable of doing at least a few other things
@GreyFox776: You do understand that 4800 hours = 600 man-days that I mentioned in the OP? :-)
/cevah
@GreyFox776: You do understand that 4800 hours = 600 man-days that I mentioned in the OP? :-)
/cevah
Yeah, sorry not directed at you. Should have added the quote, but was using my phone at the time :P
Playing for 8 hours per day will get you 4800 man hours of work
Found the old text:
The lyre is also useful with respect to actual building. Once a week its strings can be strummed so as to produce chords that magically construct buildings, mines, tunnels, ditches, or whatever. The effect produced in but three turns of playing is equal to the work of 100 men laboring for three days.
A check must be made whenever the lyre is played. Under normal circumstances, a false chord is sounded on a roll of 1-3 on 1d20. (Characters with the musical instrument proficiency play a false chord only on a roll of 1.) If the player of the lyre is under physical or mental attack, the chance of a false chord increases to 1-10. (Proficient characters resolve a proficiency check b the standard rules under these circumstances.) If a false chord is struck, all effects of the lyre are 20% likely to be negated.
This harp can be used to build or repair ships.
A bard can negate the effects of a horn of blasting, a disintegrate spell, or the effect of up to three rounds of attack from a ram or similar siege item. This works once a day for every three levels of the bard. When the lyre is used to perform work, a bard is able to achieve the work of 100 men plus 10 men per level. If a bard should happen to fail the false chord check, a saving throw vs. paralyzation is also allowed. Success indicates that the bard recovered from the mistake without mishap.
"This harp can be used to build or repair ships."
Looks like ships counted when originally designed.
/cevah
You missed the line:
Once a week, its strings can be strummed so as to produce chords that magically construct buildings, mines, tunnels, ditches, etc.
So I don't think you can stop and restart the next day.
Figuring out how to play for more than 8 hours is more reasonable. There are ways to reduce fatigue, and go without sleep, but they need GM approval. 8 hours of work does not.
/cevah
Make it intelligent it can play itself, and have +10 perform string, it takes a 10, automatically getting 20, and that is before any int bonus or any other type of bonus. It has no need to sleep or eat.
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I really love the first ability of the lyre for Skulls and Shackles. You negate all damage against your ship for 30 minutes. So everybody into the hold, sail right through the firepower of all enemy ships, creatures, magic.
My group is playing with firearms and cannons so this will be amazing to just sail through the cannonade of these cheliax navy singing the whole way. Really want to do this just for the ledgendary nature of it.
Quite honestly it's a very poorly defined item. Should be an artifact or something. On one hand a GM can rule you need all the supplies for a building, nails, wood planks, stone bricks for foundation, shingles, etc. Requiring a lot more prep and supplies than are expressed. Making it much less awesome.
On the other hand it makes no mention of even needing supplies! It says 'magically created' which could be interpreted as the supplies are magically created from nothing.
As a GM I would rule that ships are fine as they are inanimate constructions. I would require enough raw wood, tar, hemp for rope, cloth for sails etc but the magic would take care of processing them into a useable form. As far as how long you can use it, use the rules for a forced march. After the normal amount of hours you have to make fort saves or start taking non-lethal damage and fatigue. If you pass out from non-lethal damage or going past exhausted then the effect ends, but with a friendly cleric you might be able to play for a few days straight! Make them fingers bleed!
For complex constructions (anything above DC 15) I would also require crafting checks for it to form properly. I would allow for other characters to assist you in this check as a professionals advice would be able to guide.
Nothing magical could be created, nor could anything that wasn't a structure. So no siege weapons, traps (except for thinks like pits).
It would get tricky in some of the details. Like if I build a sawmill, do I get a saw blade or a geared waterwheel to power it? If I build a cabin, do I get hinged doors, windows and a fireplace? If I build a ship, is all the rigging and rudder properly working? If I build a road can I make it stone using rocks in the ground?
These sort of things are a bit of a nightmare scenario in the wrong hands. Still, ask your GM before purchasing.
Use it to reshape the coast and bays to fit your needs.
Tunnel under fortresses (or entire cities) until their foundations collapse.
Build monuments for your own glory. Then animate/possess them and wreak havoc.
Build a castle on stilts in the middle of the ocean.
Create large stone bricks that weigh tonnes, on someone else's boat.
So if it's doing work with 100 invisible men, those invisible men can form a human chain and move materials from wherever they might be, to wherever I am playing the lyre. The materials need not be manifested by magics, just transported and assembled.
Does it work that way? Nobody knows. It's official definition officially isn't very definitive.