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QuidEst wrote:
Cursed Immovable Rod… it never stops moving.

Lol i second this one, the quest to get it would be hilarious

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To contribute to the discussion:

one method i have seen is a breakdown into 4 levels of success.

level 1 - roll is equal to DC
You know the general gist of the monster, which is achieved by reading the monster description to the players (editing if necessary, if say the descriptions mentions the monster's SLA by name for example)

level 2 - roll = DC+5
You get level 1 plus, you get an overview of the monster's typical offensive and defense, any special resistances/weaknesses etc. but not their actual values

level 3 - roll = DC+10
You get level 2 plus, you get the full overview of all the monsters stats and special abilities

level 4 - roll = DC+15
You may have the bestiary open to the monster's page and read it's stats during combat

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pennywit wrote:
My favorite identification moment was in a game of Changeling. Our combat guy went into combat with something big and nasty. I tried to ID it. Botch. GM: "It's a cockatrice." Me, yelling to combat guy: "It's a cockatrice!! Don't look directly at it!!" Another player tried to ID it, and also botched. He added, "It's a cockatrice!!! Don't look directly at it!!!" The combat guy's player kind of looked at us, shook his head, and said, "OK, I don't look directly at it. What kind of penalties do I take?"

I have a similar story:

The Barbarian with no knowledge skills wonders off during a dungeon (for reasons) and runs into a Chimera. Manages to escape and get back to the party and as a pure roleplaying gaff claims he has seem a Hydra in the dungeon (it had multiple heads after all, and he had low int and wis). Party then prepares for the Hydra, enters the room and slays the Chimera reasonably quickly. Party wizard with uber knowledge checks (played by myself), looks at the creature and begins speaking "Silly barbarian that's not a Hydra its a.." Rolls dice, natural 1 "...Hydra". Party Rogue looks at the corpse "Are you on crack wizard that is clearly..." rolls a natural 1 "...a Hydra". GM shakes his head, NPC lord which is present "Are you all mad that is most certainly..." (players demand the GM roll) natural 1 "...a hydra!". Party travels back to town and triumphantly tells the story of how they slew a Hydra! LMAO

Edit: It is worth noting for any new players, that we had a house rule that a natural 1 on any d20 roll was a critical failure for comedic effect. Technically in PF a 1 is no different than any other number when it comes to skill checks.

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Toblakai wrote:

Time to invoke Godwin's law:

Is killing Hitler in his sleep evil?

Yes, so is torturing him. Doing evil things to evil people does not change the act to be "non-evil". As human beings we feel its more justifiable to do evil to evil people as that is a way for us to appease our anger at them and guilt for doing horrible things to them, but that still doesn't make it right.

In regards to the original post though, I would say the actions of your party were dishonorable and evil (murder [and possible murder of innocents, being evil is not a crime nor does it mean you have committed any evil at all, just that you are more likely to], deception leading to injury and death of others, mutilating corpses, pre-meditated murder [of the rest of the temple]).

However context is king and if I was the GM I would not call for alignment changes for it, the characters did not commit the evil for its own sake (i.e. they didn't murder them because it was just more fun that way) and they only acted dishonorably because doing otherwise could have easily (and probably) lead to their deaths.

The Paladin however is a sticky case and it depends on exactly what he did and why, and how literal the God he follows is with the code.

As written the only requirement would be that the caster have some amount of familiarity with the creature created (so that they would be able to create a sculpture in its likeness). But the creature doesn't need to be present.

I find it strange that people constantly make the connection that the rules of a given system are somehow linked to the role-playing of that system. The rules merely provide a framework for how the players may interact with the world, the way in which they choose to role-play is still completely up to them.

Role-playing is a universal thing, it is the same for all role-playing games, for any of those that have played multiple editions of D&D you will know this to be true because you will have had similar role-playing experiences in each edition even though the editions have vastly different rule sets.

I believe the issue arises from peoples expectation that the rules will line up with their perception of the games reality. The best example I can think of from personal experience was during a recent game when a player who was new to the game was playing a druid for the first time, during an encounter they were grappled by an owl-bear, as a reaction they attempted to use their newly acquired wild shape ability to turn into a snake to escape the grapple. They were then immediately disappointed to discover that this had very little mechanical effect for escaping grapples (especially with the vast difference in the owl-bear's check and their CMD) and were then upset that the rules had robbed them of a role-playing opportunity.

Some might ague that this is counter to my point above about how the rules are not connected to role-playing. But while the rules did not support the action the player wanted to take there were many other options the player could have chosen that are supported by the rules, and so the issue lay with the player's perception of what the rule system should allow.

Ithnaar wrote:
Seranov wrote:
You know what makes good characters? Good storytelling. Guess how much of that is effected by whether you optimize or not. Take your time to answer, I'll wait.

I'm glad you waited!

It most definitely affects it.

Characters without a 20 STR have to think about how to get past a barred door.

Characters without a +20 Bluff need a plan for how they are going to get past the city guards.

Characters that aren't Combat Monsters have to frequently consider whether fighting a certain opponent is a good idea or not.

The sort of supreme ability that maximum optimization allows lets you effortlessly sidestep thousands of what would otherwise be great storytelling opportunities.

One of the elements of good storytelling is victory through overcoming dangerous obstacles. With optimized characters, a great many of those obstacles are inconsequential.

The character with STR 20 still needs to think about how to get past the door if they don't want to alert the nearby guards.

The character with bluff +20 will still needs to think of a good lie to convince the guards with, simply stating "because i can bluff good you should let me in...also reasons!" should receive a -20 to the roll, meanwhile the guy with +5 Bluff who comes up with a lie they want to believe nets a +10 to the roll.

Any character encountering a monster will need to asses their strength against it, it doesn't matter how well optimized you 1st level paladin is, he is not killing a CR20 dragon in single combat any time soon.

If characters are overpowering their encounters it is the fault of the GM not the players, the GM is in control of the entire multiverse, if that is not enough to challenge the players something is horribly wrong.

Encounters which are difficult for some will be trivial to others, this is a universal law and has nothing to do with optimization, the game has a built in level mechanic. If a GM is giving encounters of 3 standard goblins versus a group of 20th level player characters, it is not the fault of the PCs that the encounter is trivial.

Cevah wrote:

@GreyFox776: You do understand that 4800 hours = 600 man-days that I mentioned in the OP? :-)


Yeah, sorry not directed at you. Should have added the quote, but was using my phone at the time :P

Corvino wrote:
Playing for 8 hours per day will get you 4800 man hours of work

Just a quick note on the math, the lyre is better than you are giving it credit for. The lyre produces "The effect produced in 30 minutes of playing is equal to the work of 100 humans laboring for 3 days.", using an 8 hour day as standard (which pops up in other places in the rules for crafting if I recall correctly) that is 100x8x3 hours of work produced every 30 minutes of playing which equals 4,800 hours of work per check you need to make.

In regards to what can be made, as always it's up to the GM but since it can make buildings and mines it can certainly do work that requires skilled labourers and the "etc" seems to indicate it is capable of doing at least a few other things

I have just recently had this same issue, my solution was a human wizard with 20 starting Int (18 + 2 racial), student of philosophy (social) and world traveler (human) traits, for magic items the headband of intellect +2 bonus skill is bluff. So in total (adjusted for level 4):

Diplomacy +6(Int)+3(Class)+1(trait)+4(ranks) = 14 (before magic items)
Bluff +6(Int)+4(ranks) = 10 (before magic items)

sense motive is more for the druid or cleric in the party anyway, and disguise can be covered with spells and items if really needed.

*Note - SoP only adds int to some (not all) diplomacy and bluff rolls, but they cover almost all uses of those skills that a face wants (with the exception being maybe gather info).

And as Ragoz has said there are plenty of magic items that boost this through the roof.

Thanael wrote:

+1 for checking out Eberron (which is originally a 3e setting) It is a great setting.

Though I can't imagine a da Vinci like magical engineering prodigy fitting into the Lands of the Linnorm Kings.

Yeah I will give Eberron a look, sounds interesting.

I never said i would be successful in instituting sweeping change, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't try. Looking at the world info though I don't think it's too big of a stretch because Torag is one of the regions main deities, so the idea of engineered solutions won't be too foreign, now the magic side of things might cause an issue, but conflict is the essence of drama so it just provides RP opportunity

wabbitking wrote:
what kind of envirement is this land dessert mountains?

To the best of my knowledge it is mostly small islands and frozen tundra in the starting area. My understanding is that the area our characters are from has a rather viking feel to it.

Edit: Just found out it is part of the core PF setting, the starting area is in the Lands of the Linnorm Kings

Oli Ironbar wrote:

Permanent Telekinesis on an engine or turbine:

I would estimate 12.5k gold for 13th lvl caster, based on Wall of Force which is same level as Telekinesis.

The maximum work generated would be 325lbs at 130ft/6sec = 7051.6ftlbs/sec, which is about 12.8 horse power.

For comparison, the Wright Brothers had a 12 horse power engine in their first powered flight. This engine weighed 180lbs, which was about a third of the weight of the whole plane (thank you wikipedia), so this virtually weightless engine would increase speed and maneuverability enough to make reliable early aircraft.

(I will assume here that the spell is cast on something at the start of the drive train and not the propeller itself. Otherwise the propeller would keep spinning even after the plane crashes, which nobody except the sickist GM's would want).

More interestingly however, 12.8 horsepower could (assuming >90% efficiency, due to a single, magical moving part) produce about 10 kilowatts of electricity, without requiring the consumption of any materials.

For scale, 10 kilowatts would power one hundred 100w lightbulbs, power an average sized radio station, or operate an industrial laser (thank you again wikipedia).

This puts a single Telekinetic turbine at the level of individual use, and at a cost that would be prohibitive for most... other than PCs and certain NPC in remote Goblin workshops, mwahaha...

So if you are looking for something mechanical, somewhere in the steam-punk, turn of the century, or early modern range, with a range of applications -- Telekinetic turbine it is.

Unless of course, you want post-apocalyptic, for which a zero-emission engine that never stops running could either be a tool for transforming the planet back into a sustainable habitat, or the means by which marauding bandits race though wasteland after wasteland in their pursuit of evil-aligned things.


Very nice, I was just reading telekinesis with that in mind, it would be a game changer that's for sure. Now all we have to do is bump that 13 Horsepower up to a few thousand and we have a viable locomotive that doesn't require fuel :)

Found another one:
Have a 20th level Cleric or Witch cast animate objects on 10 medium sized mannequins, then cast permanency. Net effect is a robot production line costing 1.5K per robot (you could also just make small robots which would cost 750 gp each)

Or a more cost effective version for lower levels

Intelligent Item - 500 gp
Int Stat (16) - 2,000 gp
Alignment (LG) - 0 gp
Speech - 500 gp
Read Languages - 1,000 gp
Read Magic - 2,000 gp
1 Skill Ranks (Every Knowledge)- 5,000 gp (2,500 x 2)*
Purpose (Educate owner) - 0 gp

Total - 11,000 gp

*would require special GM permission, RAW says item can have 5 skill ranks in 1 skill for 2,500. I have made the assumption here that a GM might allow for 1 rank in 5 similar skills for the same price

Milo v3 wrote:
My PF group recently saw Age of Ultron so they aren't letting my Lawful Evil Stark expy touch anything with Intelligence for a while unfortunately. Sentient equipment is quite a boon to nearly any device.

Lol, but didn't they watch up to the end, not all AI are bad :P

Just did a quick build for a "Bob the Skull" type intelligent item (for those unfamiliar with Dresden files, Bob is a spirit of intelligence bound to a skull that acts like an adviser and basically knows everything)

Intelligent Item - 500 gp
Int Stat (20) - 8,000 gp
Alignment (LG) - 0 gp
Speech - 500 gp
Read Languages - 1,000 gp
Read Magic - 2,000 gp
Ghost Sound at Will - 1,000 gp
Silent Image 3/day - 1,200 gp
10 Skill Ranks (Every Knowledge)- 100,000 gp (10,000 x 10)
Purpose (Educate owner) - 0 gp

Total - 114,200 gp

*This assumes that its ok to have an item that is just intelligent without a base item to add it to.

The Indescribable wrote:

I suggest blimps. Massive metal skeletons are spelled with heat spells that give it it's lift. I'm sure there's one that will provide thrust.

Nice Blimps are now definitely on the list :)

Milo v3 wrote:
For example, I made computers by enchanting a book with silent image as a holographic interface and detect magic to sense for specific versions of spell schools that touch the surface of the illusion.

Just had a read of the intelligent item rules, i think your computer idea would work well with them. Make a Lawful Good Book with intelligence, charisma and wisdom of 18 with a special purpose to teach and educate people, give it the ability to speak and use minor image at will. So its now the best teacher there could be with the ability to show presentations and keeps its students welfare in mind and drives them to excel, and the best part it never grows old and dies and is always dedicated to its purpose. Admittedly its a lot more expensive but very effective.

Some of the ideas i am currently looking at but don't have solid ideas on yet:
The printing press
Mass communication
Travel through teleportation (as mentioned with Tippyverse stuff)
Knowledge repositories (maybe by creating magical intelligent books, basically stealing the idea of Bob from the Dresden Files series on this one)
Magic Engine (steam engine but with magic)
Flying ships

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I am about to join a new campaign that will be starting at low-mid level and hopefully going to high level by the end. Our characters will be in close with a local ruler from the beginning of the campaign, and I will be playing the party wizard (typical "God" build, with some RP fluff thrown in).

This will be a RP heavy game and so I have decided that to add some flavor to my wizard by making him a bit of a visionary inventor type who wants to make the world a better place using magic and knowledge (so basically Leonardo da Vinci with spells :P).

Which brings me to my first question, does anyone have any suggestions for things from our world that would improve a stereotypical D&D world (either magical or mundane) that a wizard with the right skills and magic could create?

I have already had a read through the "Tippyverse" stuff which is right up the alley that I want with things like using permanent teleportation circles to join the cities of a kingdom for super fast travel and trade.

and the second question, does anyone have any ideas for things that could be invented in a D&D style world using magic that could not possibly exist in our world due to lack of magic and physics?

Avenka Thalma wrote:
@GreyFox776 : I try to do the host/client thing with the same computer (like you said, I would take the client instance to go to tv), but I don't know how to "link" those two instances to the same game. Do I need to start a server in the Files option ?

Yep on the host go to file menu and start server, then on the client go to file menu connect to server, look for the one you hosted in the LAN section

Avenka Thalma wrote:
Another question regarding maptool : do they get to control their pcs or do I do it for them if they have a pc computer ? If they go beyond a blocked vision, do they see the other side ?

you can do either, you can set a setting that makes it so only you can reveal the fog of war, and another setting to allow players to reveal it themselves while moving around

Avenka Thalma wrote:

3- In the game yesterday, I switched to maptools, and I had "players view" on on my TV for everyone to see, but the thing is, it's in a dark place, and many times, I had to move the screen just to my computer, add a monster or recheck the map with the GM view to be sure of where they were going, and then put it back on TV, and they found the experience too long for what it brought to the game.

I have the same set up as you (computer and TV) and also use maptool. The answer is pretty simple. Set you TV to be monitor 2, then run 2 copies of maptool, place one copy on your computer screen and the other on the TV, then use the computer copy as host and the TV as client. Finally in the host copy set lock player view to my view and you are good to go.

hope that makes sense :)

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LuxuriantOak wrote:

"the greater good" or

"evil is good"

basically: there is a threat so horrible, either a natural force or enemies that the only way to combat it is to turn to dark arts.

The concept I'm going for is something more like the warhammer 40k setting. Maybe the world itself is unravelling and the only way to avoid the decline is to sacrifice magicians. So until we find a better way, we hunt them and sacrifice them in an ongoing grand ritual at the worldheart. most people don't know about this and only know of the holy (if your faction of choice responsible is religious) or stalwart adventurers that are fighting to protect the land. the borders are patrolled harshly to avoid knowledge about the end to spread.
the further you travel from the know lands the more the world is broken: bits of land floating in the air, crazy weather, worse monsters and beasts. weird people travel in the outskirts, some say that the key to saving us all is lost outside the known land in the cataclysm.

-so it's basically the plot from bastion through the eyes of darker than black with a sprinkle of cheliax.

As an adaption of this, if you wanted to take advantage of players that live by the creed "Spell Casters = Win!" you could make it that it turns out that magic is finite and all those casters casting all those spells has lead to the unraveling of the world, now secret squads are being sent out to hunt down and kill any spell caster they can find meanwhile other heroes must venture out into the cataclysm in search of the dingus that will refill the worlds magic reserves

The "Dresdenverse" has a rather interesting approach to the duality struggle when dealing with the courts of the fey.

Essentially it boils down to Summer versus Winter. The interesting thing is that to begin with it seems like the standard good vs evil, but the more in depth you go you begin to see that they are really just 2 sides of the 1 coin, ie winter appear to be the baddies because they are cold and unforgiving of weakness (very school of hard knocks), and summer very nurturing and forgiving. But either approach can be good or bad depending on the circumstance, if training someone for combat for example its better to be a bit rough with them then it is to coddle them and leave them un-prepared for when an opponent will not give them a moment to catch their breath in the middle of a fight.

The best part is one of the core problems the hero has to deal with is that its bad if either side "wins" or even gets too much of an upper hand, if winter wins world gets an ice age and if summer wins then world one massive dessert. So the main theme ends up being balance is whats important.

Fair enough, thanks for taking the time to discuss it with me, its good having someone else to bounce ideas off when confused about the way something works.

Claxon wrote:
It can provoke up to 2. If you have Improved Overrun then the maneuver itself doesn't provoke. If you use Acrobatics successfully then you will not provoke for your movement. So, with those things in place Overrun can provoke 0 attacks of opportunity.

That seems like a lot of investment in order to get the maneuver to not suck so bad.

I will agree that straight reading of the rules indicates the 2 AoOs on overrun (and bull rush given the circumstances), but i still think there is some grey area around what is intended. I generally prefer to side with spirit of the rules where it is possible to discern them, in this case it seems like the rules for the combat maneuvers were designed without movement in mind, the spirit seems to be (at least with the other non movement ones) that you provoke an AoO unless you take a special feat.

Claxon wrote:

Also, remember that you only provoke once per creature for moving. So you will not provoke for moving out of the square in front of them, and then again for moving out of their square. You only provoke once for the entire movement.

So then overrun always provokes 2 AoO? (the first for declaring the overrun and the second for moving out of the square in front of the opponent)


The AoO provoked by overrun is due to the movement, which means with improved overrun the AoO provoked by movement is negated and since movement only ever provokes 1 AoO then having reach will still mean no AoO

Wouldn't you still technically threaten the square you occupy?

If so then overrun will always provoke an AoO, because you first move into the opponents square (which you are right does not provoke) but in so doing you have also moved out of the square in front of the opponent which will also provoke an AoO since overrun doesn't say that the AoO that is caused by the overrun attempt is due to the initial square of movement. After that you must then also move out of the square occupied by the opponent into some other square you can occupy which will provoke again.

You may be over estimating my grasp on the rules lol

wouldn't this also then mean that if someone has combat reflexes and is bull rushed they could potentially take 5 or more AoOs at the attacker, due to being pushed back.

Lets call the squares A through G like so:


attacker starts in A
defender starts in C [defender has 5 foot reach]

attacker declares bull rush: provokes an AoO which defender cant take as the attacker is too far away (or if attack has improved bulls rush)

attacker then steps into B

attacker makes roll and pushes defender all the way back to G, and chooses the option to follow so he will end in F

defender has combat reflexes which then allows him to take 5 AoOs because as the defender is pushed back a square his threaten range continues to fall back a square each time as well. In order for the attacker to follow he must pass through the defender's threatened squares.

So defender goes from C to D (now threatens C), then from D to E (now threatens D) and so on.

it seems to me that the spirit of the rule is that if you attempt to bull rush or overrun an opponent and you have the relevant improved feat the defender should be denied an AoO due to how awesome you are at that particular thing. With what we currently discussed, with either maneuver you will always provoke at least 2 AoOs to perform either one (and many more in the case of Bull Rush), given that most badies will have only 1 AoO for the turn this makes the improved feats "You dont provoke and AoO" line meaningless.

But doesn't that mean that overrun will in almost all situations cause an AoO?

for example if fighter 1 with overrun is standing directly in front of the fighter 2, fighter 1 attempts overrun and wants to move through to the square opposite fighter 2 (so he is now essentially behind him). Without the improved overrun feat the maneuver provokes an AoO (we will assume for now that fighter 2 does not have combat reflexes), but with the feat fighter 1 doesn't provoke an AoO for the maneuver but will still provoke for leaving the threatened square either in front of fighter 2 or possibly even from leaving the square that fighter 2 currently occupies.

Considering the vast majority of creatures only have a single AoO if the above is the case it seems as though the improved overrun feat is completely pointless (ie will only help if your opponent has combat reflexes).

Searched through some old threads on this but couldn't find the answer, so please forgive as i am sure it would have been asked before.

Question: If trying to overrun an opponent with reach while having the improved overrun feat mean that at no point during the character's movement does the reach creature get an AoO?

Example: Creature with improved overrun and move of 10 squares starts turn 3 squares away from an ogre. Creature declares an overrun attempt and will try to move forward through the ogre's space and onward for full movement. Does the ogre at any point get an AoO at the creature trying to overrun?

Thanks in advance guys and gals.

285. All sea voyages will involve attack by a Kraken

Wow some interesting ideas happened here over the week lol :)

I've had a look into some higher level spells and with the consideration of custom magic items and the permanency spell i have to say i was way off base with my original post, but in this instance I'm very happy to be wrong :)

here are some findings:

Permanent teleportation circles: Cost is a measly (in kingdom building terms) 23.5K meaning if someone wanted to spend the money you could link up your entire kingdom in a network of teleporters! No more travel time between cities, i can only imagine what this would do to trade and to the lively hood of bandits.

Permanent image: Cast once on a classroom on a 6 month loop of teaching subject X, now the university lecturers can get on with finding better uses of their magical talents then teaching new students the basics of magic (or any other field of study). I admit this one stretches it a bit lol...

Continual Flame: Candle costs 1 cp and burns for 1 hour. Oil in lantern or lamp burns cost 1 sp burns for 6 hours. Torch costs 1 cp burns for 1 hour. Continual flame costs 50 gp burns forever...Seems like a no brainer in kingdom building terms just think of those long term savings lol.

Animate Dead: Discussions of evil aside nothing beats cheap labor in a medieval society, and these guys work for free...and never ever stop working...ever.

Craft Construct: A more expensive version of above but without the debate over the evilness of necromancy.

Make whole: Dragon destroy your house? Call crazy Bob's wizard repairs and have your home back good as new tomorrow!

Mending: This spell and the one above could destroy entire industries of disposable goods. Again a slight stretch based on availability of casters but i see potential there.

Move earth: Need land cleared and leveled fast? Call crazy Bob's for one day turn around on large squares of land. disclaimer crazy Bob's will not be held accountable for damage caused to or from underground dwelling creatures during or after construction work has begun...

Shrink Item: If you need to transport large good or even just a large amount of goods and expect to only take a few days (more with extend spell) this is the way to go. Great when combined with the teleportation circles above.

Simulacrum: For those that say "But wizards are so few there aren't enough of them for all this magic!". For the small investment of just 500 gp per HD your kingdom can have its very own wizard who does whatever he/she is told (at least until the creator tells him/her to do something different...this give me an evil idea for an adventure lol)

Stone shape: Tell the stone masons they can have a day or two off.

Wish: Almost whatever you want it to mean.

and that's just a few lol

Speaking from a player perspective tough fights can be fun but when every fight has players loosing characters or the party expending all its resources it sucks the fun right out of the game. You need a balance of easy fights to feel tough (and expend some light resources) with a few climactic epic battles. Doing it that way helps make the big bad guys memorable.

(now for personal story time / player complaining lol)
I once played in a game were the GM would throw nothing but encounters that would be classed as legendary or epic given the difficulty guidelines in the book. Every fight was tooth and nail and would require resting afterwards (yep 1 fight per day) as the party would expend almost all its resources. It was particularly frustrating when the GM would become upset at the party when we would rest rather than continue on with roughly 10% HP and no heals left. We got to level 7 and at no point did we feel powerful, as a matter of fact several discussions of buying a tavern and retiring were had because the adventuring life was just far too dangerous.

Kalridian wrote:

That is mainly, because truly considering the implications of magic on everyday life leads to the tippyverse and most people don't want to play in that world.

Other than that, check adventures and regional books for flavourful magical items for everyday use. (The taldor book has some great luxury items for the bearded of oppara)

Thanks Kalridian, i just went and googled the tippyverse and its exactly the kind of thing i was looking for :)

avr wrote:

Communication magics from whispering wind on up are decidedly out of combat spells. Charm person is not at its best in a fight. Spells which assist in large scale construction exist and continual flame obsoletes lamplighters whereever some spellcaster takes an interest.

Is there a reason you want to make the mundane population entirely irrelevant?

The same question could be asked of the inventors of the printing press in our world.

I just find it an interesting thought experiment to ask how a world would grow and change over time if magic were possible, and it seems to me that if magic were possible a society would greatly benefit from some research and study into improving the average persons life.

Taking a look through the books for pathfinder there are hundreds of combat or combat related spells, several non-combat adventurer related spells, but few spells that just flat out help improve quality of life.

So my question is a two parter, firstly does anyone know of a good source of non combat non adventure related spells that do things like help build houses, educate people etc?

And secondly does this ever come up much in the games people play? (for example do high level wizards frequently ask GM permission to do spell research to create a spell that builds stuff, or creates armies of unseen servants to go about town and wash windows and light oil lamps)

Also please note i am not saying there is anything wrong with the lack of this type of spell from the game, i was just pondering why wizards spend all their time coming up with new ways to kill people :P

when it comes to themed pathfinder i think everyone owes it to themselves to try a goblin game....just dont expect to get much done (but do expect hours of laughing yourself stupid)

Awesome stuff RD, my personal favorite is the animated castle, i am so stealing that idea :)

DrDeth wrote:
OP, please use capital letters and paragraphs, ok?

Sure thing =)

Question on the bear trap - how long does it take to set it up? move action to equip and standard to set maybe full round to drive in spike? seems rather powerful for a 2gp item. I am already imagining devious situations involving illusions of bear traps mixed in with real ones, "Bad Guy 1 - " Ah these traps are illusions run forth minions! Minion 1 - OK boss *CRUNCH* ahhhh! Bad Guy 1 - No not that one it was real, make your will saves damnit!" lol

Also should be noted that to begin with the game was pure core rules, i think we are starting to bring in APG and having a look the pit spells and Aquous Orb seem like very solid spells and would have nasty saves from me as both are conjuration, i figure i could cast orb twice and then just spend both standard and move action to move them about for some massive control effect for the cost of 2 3rd lvl spells

Kayerloth wrote:
I like Silent Saturn's idea of a bear trap (or two). Add in Shrink Item (lasts 7 days at your level) for making it easily portable by your average, not so muscle bound, wizard and Invisibility so the foe doesn't just step around or over it and you could have a rude surprise laid out by the groups stealthy member or against new arrival(s) to the battle.

hehe that sounds like an interesting plan, i think i am going to have to read up on bear traps

also Soporific Lotus asked why i took extend spell, mostly i just grabbed it for mage armor so it would last a little longer (also i think a few times at low level i took some summons extended for fights we knew would take a while), as i said this is my first wizard and i found when looking at the metamagic feats for the first time(only had access to core at the start of the game) that i couldn't see much reason to drop a lvl 3 spell like stinking cloud for an empowered burning hands or something, or a lvl 4 for a widened grease. I am sure at later levels they come in real handy and i imagine there are plenty of low level uses for each that i haven't considered, but that was my original logic (once again open to suggestions for a good low to mid range metamagic feat if anyone has some good ideas im all ears)

Soporific Lotus wrote:
Is this what the group likes or is the GM just actually being mean because that is a problem.

I have probably made him sound worse than he is, its not so much that he is mean as it is that he enjoys challenge (in video games he always plays what ever the highest difficulty is). As such he brings that into his games a little more then the players would like, so in his mind if we walk through an encounter and only use 10-20% of our resources then it was a boring encounter.

We have spoken to him about it and he is making efforts to ease up a little, the rest of us enjoy challenging encounters but when every single encounter is a hares breath away from a TPK it gets discouraging.

Also i just want to note that its not so much that i am upset or bored that i dont have anything to do its just that i get the feeling there is something i could be doing to help more, as a couple have noted i have built my character for summons (mostly because to at the begining of the campaign the party was rather small most of the time and we desperately needed meat shields) so in most encounters i throw out a summon or two, maybe buff or control a little with another spell, then i usually conserve knowing i will need the spells on the rest of the list for more fights in the day, the group is always happy with the results. I just want to help more once that has been done, i like the idea of using my knowledges more during combat as i am an absolute knowledge monkey, and i think some tanglefoot bags might be a good addition to the mundane control items as well as some other alchemical items. I think i will also pick up a wand of something as i can afford a 1st level wand, i have a bunch of scrolls i have scribed but i usually just scribe utility spells so that i dont have to memorize or leave slots open. I think i had caltrops at some point but i think i lost them when our ship sunk (basic premise of the campaign is being shipwrecked on a mysterious island that is guarded by a leviathan that wont let anyone leave, so there is a rudimentary civilization on the island because of the hundreds of ships the leviathan has sunk and marooned people for the last few centuries, also teleporting works only on the island so no teleporting off or dimensional travel away, so summons and minor class abilities work but no breaking the campaign with teleport spells lol)

Orthos wrote:

This is probably an important question to ask, anyway. Even more so with people switching from "buy this" suggestions to "make this" suggestions.

OP, does your GM even allow crafting feats other than Scribe Scroll? I know some GMs ban crafting feats completely, while some allow Scribe Scroll only because it's a Wizard class ability, and then others allow choice other options, and others allow the whole shebang.

yeah crafting feats are allowed but frowned upon.

In response to many others I do use scribe scroll but mostly i have just used it for lvl 1 spells as for the most part we are dirt poor (but this will be hopefully changing as the GM is starting to realize that at low levels magic items weren't all that necessary but as the levels get higher its looking more and more like we need the items to remain alive lol)

here is the basic rundown of the character as he stands atm, any suggested improvements welcome as the group has been on a long break and the GM has given us the chance for a minor respec (as in maybe swap out some feats and swap stats around a little)

* note on stats - GM gave us a 30 point stat buy as he is really stingy on magic items and cash (currently the only magic item i have is a belt of mighty con + 4 which the barbarian wants, but he already has magic armor/weapons and gets buffed to hell each fight so the belt went to me....for now) stats for the belt not included below

Male Wizard 7
Init +5; Senses Perception +2
AC 13, touch 13, flat-footed 10 (+3 dex)
hp 44 (7d6+7)
SR 0
Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +7
Spd 30 ft/x4
Melee Quarterstaff +3 (1d6) 20/x2 monk
Ranged Light Crossbow +6 (1d8) 19-20/x2
Special Attacks Summoner's Charm (PFCR 80)
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 21, Wis 14, Cha 7
BAB +3, CMB +3, CMD +16
Feats Augment Summoning (PFCR 118), Combat Casting (PFCR 119), Extend Spell (PFCR 123), Greater Spell Focus (PFCR 125), Scribe Scroll (PFCR 132), Spell Focus (Conjuration) (PFCR 134), Superior Summoning (PFUM 157)
Skills Appraise +15, Craft (alchemy) +9, Fly +10, Knowledge (arcana) +15, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +10, Knowledge (engineering) +10, Knowledge (geography) +10, Knowledge (history) +10, Knowledge (local) +10, Knowledge (nature) +10, Knowledge (nobility) +10, Knowledge (religion) +10, Knowledge (planes) +10, Linguistics +15, Ride +8, Spellcraft +15
SQ Arcane Bond (PFCR 78), Specialty school Conjuration (teleportation) opposition schools (Necromany/Enchantment)
Traits Focused Mind (Magic) (PFAPG 329), Reactionary (Combat) (PFAPG 328)
Languages Abyssal, Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Elven, Giant, Ignan, Infernal, Sylvan, Terran, Undercommon

rangerjeff wrote:
It is not the wizard's job to do damage. Since this is your first wizard, and you've played only fighter types before, I forgive you for being confused. Your job is to be interesting, change the balance on the field. What wizard type are you? If evoker, try to take some feats like rime spell that add an effect to the damage you do. If not evoker, you have many options for messing with the enemy. Walls or illusions to divide the field of combat. Summons. Control like create pit, web, grease. Buffs like haste, heroism, bulls strength.

yeah for the most part i try and play a "controller", i read treatmonks guide for the "god" wizard and it made a lot of sense to me, and so far i am proud to say i have not memorized magic missile once during seven levels lol (i dont even have the spell) because grease is just too damn useful and color spray was awesometacular for the first 4 levels. Same too goes for fireball (i have that one) which doesnt get to see the light of day because stinking cloud muscles its way into the list on a daily basis because the debuff is just too damn good to pass up for damage

I have found as a conjurer my main tactics spell wise usually go something along the lines of Stinking Cloud in round 1, then summon some monsters for assistance in rounds 2-3, then maybe do some of the less effective stuff i mentioned earlier. Also Haste has been a big party favorite, as well as some clever uses of silent image to summon a "ghost"/walls/spikes/copies of characters. by far the best spell i had for about 4 levels was color spray, with that and grease the party dropped an ogre at lvl 1.

checked and yeah Umbranus was right about deadly aim on touch attacks so no go on that one =(

hmm just having a quick read, point blank shot and deadly aim might actually work out, will need to think about the feat investment but it is intriguing none the less as acid splash is ranged touch so even at penalties to hit from deadly aim most baddies as still well hitable.

I just it comes down to is there something other than damage i should be focusing on, we have a barbarian who causes ridiculous damage with his great sword already, even with the tough bad guys he still usually drops things in a round or two so maybe damage should just be left to him and i should try to control in some non spell related way?

RJ nailed it, it's a home brew game and the GM is mean to the point of cruel when it comes to the CR of encounters lol (if going by the CR scale in the core book almost ever fight would be considered legendary), the trouble is that in his mind a fight is not fun unless the party has just about tapped all resources in order to overcome it...and then he will throw in another just like it to really make us work =(

an example would be forcing an encounter with 4 gargoyles on a lvl 5 party of 4 with two members below 0 hp including the cleric, we survive somehow through a combination of shear dumb luck and determination (with a dash of min maxing)

but whining aside i like the idea of beefing up acid splash if possible as i always have it on the list as i am a conjurer and its the only 0 lvl conjuration i have access to, so what are some of the ways to buy the damage on cantrips ie is it only through spells or can certain magic items boost it as well?

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