Need advice - What class for this party\campaign?


Advice


So, I'm a semi-experienced Pathfinder player, and I enjoy character creation quite a bit. But, here's my problem, I have not played in a while, and a group of BRAND NEW players are starting a campaign and I'm invited.

We're playing the Wrath of the Righteous campaign, one I've heard from other friends who've played it, is very hard in terms of combat and mythic characters and what-not.

We're using a 20 point system, rolling for HP at level 1, 1 trait from the APG allowed, and our first game is this upcoming Wednesday the 17th.

Against my will and advice, the others have chosen their classes before me. We have: A regular monk, regular rogue, Draconic Sorcerer, and a regular ranger. None of these characters are combat oriented except for the sorcerer who's min-maxed and building a blaster. Our only aggresive melee character is the monk, and based on the "test game" we ran the other day, It's safe to say he'll be hanging around the back, scared to enter combat first, regardless of our sorcerer's pleas.

So we have no real "tank" (I know that's a term GMs and experienced players laugh at), and no healer.

My immediate thought was to roll a Paladin (even though I HATE the idea of playing LG). But I can't decide on a build\items\feats\archetype for the life of me. I want to be able to take a lot of hits, and find ways to force the GM to focus me so I can protect the new players. However, if I get too much armor, I'm afraid he'll ignore me and focus the others instead.

Right now I believe I'm sitting at
STR 18
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 7
Wis 9
Cha 16

Basic human paladin. Masterwork Scythe and Half-plate The feats I picked are Improved Initiative and Extra Lay on Hands. The trait I picked was Rich Parents, allowing me to get a Masterwork weapon and much, much better armor.

I've constantly gone back and forth on if I should get a shield and a one handed weapon, raise my STR to 20, lower my STR and raise my CHA, or just restore my dumped stats and keep all my stats semi-balanced. I feel the need to min-max as much as possible, only because I'll be the main tank, healer and damage dealer in the party (against my will, trust me). The Ranger and Rogue have lots of points in their skills, and very low attack\armor stats.

Maybe I'm over thinking this. Maybe not. I just don't wanna see all these new players get their characters to level 3, all die, and have to make new ones...knowing these people, they'll get discouraged and not wanna play any more after losing a character they bonded with. And if you're looking for an idea of how they play, our Sorcerer charged an enemy boss with a dagger yesterday, while our rogue hid behind the sorcerer, and our ranger attempted to flee the scene after she took damage.

Anyway, sorry for the long post..thank you in advanced for reading this!

Shadow Lodge

Paladins do really well in this campaign and will work great with your part. Iomedae is a huge part so playing a paladin further increases you importance in the game.

Play a paladin of Vengeance, take fey founding, where low are and have an 18 charisma. At higher levels take greater mercy and ultimate mercy.

All you will need is a greatsword and power attack. Take extra LoH a bit and you will be unkillable. Especially after level 4.

Take shield other to absorb damage for the party and after that use Heavy armor. You will get amazing and powerful armors.

With mythic get a legendary sword and be a gaudian. Great damage and protect allies. At higher teir take Dual Path to also be a champion and ramp up damage any more.

Kill, heal, repeat.

Shadow Lodge

I don't envy you. Have you talked to your GM about your concerns?

You've picked the right class, though - not just to keep your friends alive but also because that AP is full of smiteables. It's also a good class for rallying the monk and ranger.

Build wise I would consider a reach weapon in order to control more space and prevent enemies from getting to your party members. Even without combat reflexes you get one extra attack on enemies moving past you and that can be enough to drop them before they can hit your allies (or, for that matter, you).

There are also paladin spells like Paladin's Sacrifice and Shield Other that allow you to take damage for your party. In fact, you might look into a oradin build.

Razi_the_Insane wrote:
rolling for HP at level 1

That's a terrible idea, especially for beginners. It's too easy to get a supposed frontliner with 5 starting HP or fewer, which would make it impossible to do their job - and would justify the cowardice you described. Combat is risky enough at low levels.

Sovereign Court

Lawful Good, doesn't mean you can't be a snooty noble looking down at the lesser mortals who you've allowed to carry your baggage. You just have to respect their lives, and demand they respect your title. :-)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Human paladin, Power Attack and Fey Foundling at first.

Otherwise, maybe an inquisitor or reach cleric?


Reach cleric might be even better, dump CHA because channeling is not that useful unless you specialize. Get DEX to at least 14, grab a reach weapon like a longspear. Growth domain is good unless the sorcerer has enlarge person. This way you control the battlefield. Have a lot of flexibility. If you pump your WIS too, you can cast spells like murderous command; but even if not you can buff well, summon as necessary (though I'd summon prebattle or use one of the options to get summoning as a standard action because the key to this build is casting and getting lots of attacks of opportunity. But it'll be strong enough to help frontline melee and support this kind of group.

A bard would be super helpful in this group too, but I think reach cleric packs more wallop. Inquisitor or warpriest work fine too.

Silver Crusade

I will recommend Druid, Hunter, or Oracle(Moon). So you can get animal companion to pull some of the melee damage from your character. If you lose the animal companion it dose hurt but not nearly as much as losing a character.

My suggestion is what I made for soloing Giantslayer AP. He has preformed better then expected.
Human
Hunter
Str 17
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 8
Human Race Trait: Eye for Talent (+2Str, or Dex)
Feet
1: Improved Initiative

Animal Companion: I suggest the bear for pure damage. Cat only if you feel the defense is worth the trade off.
Bear: has one of the highest base Str. With animal focus and Eye for Talent the bear can start with Str 19. Giving it three attacks at +5 to hit and +4 damage. At level 4 my hunters bear is +9 to hit, and +9 damage.
Small Cat: has one of the highest base Dex. With animal focus and Eye for talent it starts with a Dex 25. With weapon finesses you have three attacks at +8 to hit and +1 damage + trip. Along with a starting AC Base 10 Natural 1 Dex Mod 7 Size 1 = 19. If you leave it small size at level 4 it will end up with a Dex 28, and AC 23.


Thanks for the replies, everyone.

I've thought about a reach weapon and decided against it. If I'm correct, they can't attack creatures that are close to them, and I couldn't find a way around that so I'd rather just stick with the Scythe for it's critical damage.

Now my stats are:
STR 16
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 7
Wis 9
Cha 18

Feats: Fey Foundling & Noble Scion (war).

I think the Fey Foundling feat will work great, thanks for that suggestion. Also, does anyone know if Improved Initiative and Noble Scion stack? Could I pick up both for +8 initiative? Would that high of a bonus even be worth it? I've never had a character over level 8. Other Feats I plan on getting as I level are Extra Lay on Hands and Power Attack, along with eventually getting the critical ones.

I'm struggling on deciding on if I should keep 18 STR or CHA. I also feel a little uneasy leaving WIS so low. I'm hoping the Paladin class features will make up for that -1.

Right now my damage is +5 attack bonus, 2D4+4 damage.
IF i switch to 18 STR, I'll have +6 attack bonus, 2D4+6 damage; but I get 1 less use of Lay on Hands.

Weirdo wrote:

Razi_the_Insane wrote:
rolling for HP at level 1
That's a terrible idea, especially for beginners. It's too easy to get a supposed frontliner with 5 starting HP or fewer, which would make it impossible to do their job - and would justify the cowardice you described. Combat is risky enough at low levels.

I did speak with my DM and he said if we're ever gonna die, we can always "RP our way out of any situation if our RP is good enough and he'll let it slide." I personally think that's a stupid way to run things, because if we're gonna be invincible to attacks based on how well we RP.. then I'm just gonna dump my CON and AC and run around naked and invincible. I don't know, I'll give it a few weeks and see what happens. >.>

I also totally agree with the HP thing, I said the same thing.


The most common mistake for a paladin is to put too much into CHA. STR should be your highest stat, then CHA. Also consider using a falchion for your weapon. As a paladin power attacking with a two handed weapon you want a high critical hit range over a high multiplier. With the scythe you may occasionally get huge damage, but for the most part most of it will be wasted. Doing 80 points over what you need to kill something is not any better than killing it by a single point.

Rich Parents is a trap. Don’t waste a trait on something that is only going to be useful at first level. Take something that will give you a benefit at every level. Armor expert is good for a paladin help with skills like climb, swim or acrobatics. Or if you are worried about your will save Indomitable Faith gives you a +1 will save.

Skip the shield and go the masochist paladin routine. The whole idea behind the masochistic paladin is keep your AC moderately low so that the enemy has a chance to hit you. Then use your lay on hands as a swift action to heal yourself. You want your AC to be low enough that the first attack has a chance to hit you, but latter attacks miss. If your AC is too high the enemy may just not bother attack you. Fey Foundling, Greater Mercy and Extra Lay on Hands help with this.

When you get spells consider bless weapon. It automatically confirms critical threats vs. evil targets. It does not work with Keen or other magical effects, but does work with improved critical. If you use a falchion and have improved critical you will critical on a 15 or better when attack an evil target if you have bless weapon up.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

The most common mistake for a paladin is to put too much into CHA. STR should be your highest stat, then CHA. Also consider using a falchion for your weapon. As a paladin power attacking with a two handed weapon you want a high critical hit range over a high multiplier. With the scythe you may occasionally get huge damage, but for the most part most of it will be wasted. Doing 80 points over what you need to kill something is not any better than killing it by a single point.

Rich Parents is a trap. Don’t waste a trait on something that is only going to be useful at first level. Take something that will give you a benefit at every level. Armor expert is good for a paladin help with skills like climb, swim or acrobatics. Or if you are worried about your will save Indomitable Faith gives you a +1 will save.

Skip the shield and go the masochist paladin routine. The whole idea behind the masochistic paladin is keep your AC moderately low so that the enemy has a chance to hit you. Then use your lay on hands as a swift action to heal yourself. You want your AC to be low enough that the first attack has a chance to hit you, but latter attacks miss. If your AC is too high the enemy may just not bother attack you. Fey Foundling, Greater Mercy and Extra Lay on Hands help with this.

When you get spells consider bless weapon. It automatically confirms critical threats vs. evil targets. It does not work with Keen or other magical effects, but does work with improved critical. If you use a falchion and have improved critical you will critical on a 15 or better when attack an evil target if you have bless weapon up.

These are all EXTREMELY helpful points. Exactly what I was looking for. Are we sure about the weapon, though? I thought the same thing, but based on all the discussions I read, eventually leading to some number-crunched list of weapons in terms of DPS, Scythe was on top behind some Exotic weapon. I really like your ideas about the AC and trait. I'll swap some things around.

Thanks


I submit that while a paladin is a strong choice there are others.

With tower shield prof, heavy armor prof, and all their shield To AC bonuses your more of a tank than those classes that were made to be tanks. Grab a hold of divine protection and your a paladin in saves. Take channeling with super powerful variants like rulership, madness, pain and you can handle many things all by yourself WHILE having healing on top of that in some cases ::cough full caster::

Second choice is warpriest. Not the ideal healer but this is very good as a tank and has pretty good damage on single targets.

Third be a summoner of some kind, NOT the class necessarily. Grab anything that summons well like oracle, summoner, cleric, etc and summon the army to the job of your PCs. Because this takes a while to fire on all cylinders we need you to be competent in battle fast. Towards that end I submit a battle oracle, a synthesist summoner, crusader cleric, a few others work very well. With summons it is entirely possible to fill the role of healer and such through your summons SLA.

Race selection will help out. Half elves are probably best for paladin, oracle, summoner classes but human wins in the cleric. Not sure about warpriest. A tiefling will be a nice joker to throw in as they get armor of the pit feat for tanking AND have natural attacks.


You know it occurs to me that a Druid would be pretty lethal if you can just make It past levels 1-3.


Meat wrote:
Lawful Good, doesn't mean you can't be a snooty noble looking down at the lesser mortals who you've allowed to carry your baggage. You just have to respect their lives, and demand they respect your title. :-)

I Think playing lawful obnoxious is a bad Way to swing as a paladin with a new group.

And to the OP. A evangalist cleric with a reach weapon is a good alternative to paladin. And so is a Warpriest. Both have more spell support and you Can sidestep the LG that you dont seem to like. I would go for the reach cleric since he is somthing like the Best support character in the game. Fun from level one and effective all the Way. Dont optimize too much since the others are new and you dont want them to leave:)

Human or halforc(sacred tattoes) combat reflexes at level 1. And Fates favored and seeker or reactionary as traits. Have a long spear.
STR 14+2
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 14
Cha 12
Stat gains in str.
Mythic Will allow you to get insane stats along the way.
Perception maxed. As domain heroism is good and so is growth and several others.
This character Will have strong melee precence, both as support and as damage and area control.


Razi_the_Insane wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:

The most common mistake for a paladin is to put too much into CHA. STR should be your highest stat, then CHA. Also consider using a falchion for your weapon. As a paladin power attacking with a two handed weapon you want a high critical hit range over a high multiplier. With the scythe you may occasionally get huge damage, but for the most part most of it will be wasted. Doing 80 points over what you need to kill something is not any better than killing it by a single point.

Rich Parents is a trap. Don’t waste a trait on something that is only going to be useful at first level. Take something that will give you a benefit at every level. Armor expert is good for a paladin help with skills like climb, swim or acrobatics. Or if you are worried about your will save Indomitable Faith gives you a +1 will save.

Skip the shield and go the masochist paladin routine. The whole idea behind the masochistic paladin is keep your AC moderately low so that the enemy has a chance to hit you. Then use your lay on hands as a swift action to heal yourself. You want your AC to be low enough that the first attack has a chance to hit you, but latter attacks miss. If your AC is too high the enemy may just not bother attack you. Fey Foundling, Greater Mercy and Extra Lay on Hands help with this.

When you get spells consider bless weapon. It automatically confirms critical threats vs. evil targets. It does not work with Keen or other magical effects, but does work with improved critical. If you use a falchion and have improved critical you will critical on a 15 or better when attack an evil target if you have bless weapon up.

These are all EXTREMELY helpful points. Exactly what I was looking for. Are we sure about the weapon, though? I thought the same thing, but based on all the discussions I read, eventually leading to some number-crunched list of weapons in terms of DPS, Scythe was on top behind some Exotic weapon. I really like your ideas about the AC...

I am very sure on the weapon. The point is kill the enemy, not to do massive damage. The Scythe has the potential for more damage, but rarely actually does. You actually do more damage per round on the average with a high critical range. Assuming a 30% chance to hit and power attack the scythe does 7 points of damage per round, to the 8.4 for the falchion at first level. The Scythe has a maximum potential damage of 68 vs. 34 for the falchion. What are you fighting at first level that you need to do 68 points of damage? When you actually do manage to land a critical hit with the scythe chances are it is going to be on something that does not have the HP anyways.


Here's a thought. Be an archer. Smite Evil works great with a bow. Take Stabbing Shot so you can keep shooting even while in melee. Wear armor as heavy as you like. They might be able to out run you, but they won't outrun your arrows. Now you'll be a true Tank, heavy armor, and your bow will be your cannon.

Shadow Lodge

Stabbing Shot doesn't prevent you from provoking AoO, so if you're surrounded by multiple enemies you're in trouble. And even then you don't qualify until for the feat until at least 5th level.

Paladins make great archers, but archers make poor frontliners.

Razi_the_Insane wrote:
I've thought about a reach weapon and decided against it. If I'm correct, they can't attack creatures that are close to them, and I couldn't find a way around that so I'd rather just stick with the Scythe for it's critical damage.

You can't attack adjacent enemies with a reach weapon but it's usually not a big deal because you can 5ft step before attacking. Pushing Assault can also help keep people at the right range. And if you wear a gauntlet or spiked armour you can attack at close range (adjacent) in a pinch. Check the boards for "reach cleric tactics."

The naginata also has a x4 critical modifier if you're keen on that, though the bardiche is also a great option with a 19-20 crit range (I would agree with Mysterious Stranger that x4 is often overkill).

Keep in mind as a paladin you don't have to narrow down your style too much in the first few levels - Power Attack works just as well for a scythe as a falchion as a bardiche. You can carry around multiple weapons until you figure out what you like and start investing in more specific feats and weapon enhancements.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
The most common mistake for a paladin is to put too much into CHA. STR should be your highest stat, then CHA.

Even for Wrath of the Righteous? I would expect the reliability of Smite Evil to make CHA somewhat more valuable than the average AP.


Smite evil only works vs a single target, and you only have so many per day. As such it works great vs the BBEG, but is useless against lots of smaller evil creatures. Look at it this way 2 points of CHA gives you a +1 to hit a limited number of times per day. 2 points of STR gives you +1 to hit and at least +1 to damage all day. If your STR bonus ends up being even that extra STR is actually giving you +2 to damage when using a two handed weapon. When using smite evil your chance to hit is the same, but you do less damage. When you are not using smite evil you have a harder time hitting and still do less damage. The damage from smite evil comes being able to bypass all DR and adding your level to damage, not from CHA.


Razi_the_Insane wrote:
These are all EXTREMELY helpful points. Exactly what I was looking for. Are we sure about the weapon, though? I thought the same thing, but based on all the discussions I read, eventually leading to some number-crunched list of weapons in terms of DPS, Scythe was on top behind some Exotic weapon. I really like your ideas about the AC and trait. I'll swap some things around.

Since this is Wrath of the Righteous, if you can take Improved Critical and Mythic Improved Critical, the Scythe actually does top the falcata (that "some exotic weapon") in damage.

Thing is though, it tends to deal its damage in massive overkill. Sure, you'll utterly wreck whatever you crit, but with a Nodachi and those same feats you get 15-20/x3 instead of 19-20/x5, which means you're critting three times as often and still dealing absolutely massive damage.

I do like Weirdo's suggestion of snagging a couple weapons and figuring out if you like reach tactics or if you'd rather stick up close and what you, personally, like in terms of crit ranges.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Razi_the_Insane wrote:

So, I'm a semi-experienced Pathfinder player, and I enjoy character creation quite a bit. But, here's my problem, I have not played in a while, and a group of BRAND NEW players are starting a campaign and I'm invited.

We're playing the Wrath of the Righteous campaign, one I've heard from other friends who've played it, is very hard in terms of combat and mythic characters and what-not.

It's hard for the GM... after the players get a bit mythic, it becomes a cakewalk most of the time. Wrath is easy enough that you can forgo a bit of power for flavor, which is why m Iomedan Paladin started out as and is still a traditional longsword and shield Paladin.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Smite evil only works vs a single target, and you only have so many per day. As such it works great vs the BBEG, but is useless against lots of smaller evil creatures. Look at it this way 2 points of CHA gives you a +1 to hit a limited number of times per day. 2 points of STR gives you +1 to hit and at least +1 to damage all day. If your STR bonus ends up being even that extra STR is actually giving you +2 to damage when using a two handed weapon. When using smite evil your chance to hit is the same, but you do less damage. When you are not using smite evil you have a harder time hitting and still do less damage. The damage from smite evil comes being able to bypass all DR and adding your level to damage, not from CHA.

oath of vengence can swap some lay of hands for more smites.

But i'm going to suggest cleric/oracle, tank by preventing people from dying and buffing then close in for melee. take the travel domain for the speed boost and maybe get heavy armor proficiency so you can "dump"(leave at 10) dexterity. Channel to heal in out of combat, in combat try to be a bad touch cleric and lay on the pain(in which case it doesn't matter what your weapon is for the most part).

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