More importantly, why haven't all the "Grandmaster Torch" senarios been retired?
Given the way the Shadowlodge was ended, their is a LOT of ill feeling.
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At least now you have stats if your party decides to gank him..More importantly, why haven't all the "Grandmaster Torch" senarios been retired?
Given the way the Shadowlodge was ended, their is a LOT of ill feeling.
I know this is tongue in cheek, but if this happens in any but one scenario, I'm marking characters as dead as I'm sure the Society won't put up with Pathfinders killing allies and assets, especially those who have dirt on the Decemvirate.
I know this is tongue in cheek, but if this happens in any but one scenario, I'm marking characters as dead as I'm sure the Society won't put up with Pathfinders killing allies and assets, especially those who have dirt on the Decemvirate.At least now you have stats if your party decides to gank him..More importantly, why haven't all the "Grandmaster Torch" senarios been retired?
Given the way the Shadowlodge was ended, their is a LOT of ill feeling.
Even money that the players will petition and will successfully have your ruling overturned.
What makes you think that this was "tongue in cheek," I am entirely serious.
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That's strange. Everyone I know from my former Pathfinder Society group was a big fan of Torch, and was mystified and upset when he suddenly became a "bad guy" for no apparent reason and the Shadow Lodge went away - our primary DM at the time quit in protest because of it, in fact. We ran that final Scenario and let him get away without a fight.
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That's strange. Everyone I know from my former Pathfinder Society group was a big fan of Torch, and was mystified and upset when he suddenly became a "bad guy" for no apparent reason and the Shadow Lodge went away - our primary DM at the time quit in protest because of it, in fact. We ran that final Scenario and let him get away without a fight.
Had the same reaction when i dmed it.
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I know this is tongue in cheek, but if this happens in any but one scenario, I'm marking characters as dead as I'm sure the Society won't put up with Pathfinders killing allies and assets, especially those who have dirt on the Decemvirate.At least now you have stats if your party decides to gank him..More importantly, why haven't all the "Grandmaster Torch" senarios been retired?
Given the way the Shadowlodge was ended, their is a LOT of ill feeling.
Even money that the players will petition and will successfully have your ruling overturned.
What makes you think that this was "tongue in cheek," I am entirely serious.
I wouldn't be so sure of that. Suffice it to say I'd clearly warn the players.
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Interestingly enough, I am headed off to college this August, and thus a new Pathfinder group as well. I am having my players as Shadow Lodge agents fighting against the Society's corruption and Aspis agents... and Torch will NOT totally turn into a bad guy so haphazardly. Shocking right?!
Anyways, I have him as an Absalom native. I am not sure if there is an official answer though.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Andrew, if attacking Torch in 4-23 is legitimate, then attacking him afterwards should be as well, yes? Torch is much more complicated than an "ally and an asset." Depending on the scenario you're running, he may be trying to undermine the Society and bring it down in a long-term revenge scheme. I'm not saying that the attack should be easy, and it might result in Torch not laughing it off, ending the interview, and closing the scenario after one or two scenes.
Let's see how well your PCs do in "Many Fortunes of Grandmaster Torch," when the information broker takes affront at your attack and ends your audience without giving you any information.
Likewise: your brilliant attack succeeds, and there's blood in the hot tub. Let's see how well you do when the information broker is floating face-down before he could give you any information.
Those seem to be more natural consequences than "the GM marks your characters as dead."
I kinda wish I knew why people hated Torch so much, but since I'm not that into PFS, it seems unlikely I'll be finding out anytime soon. My assumption is that he sends people on terrible quests without adequately explaining the dangers. Is that close?
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Me As DM In This Situation: "As you strike the killing blow, you see something in the dying Torch's eyes, a glimmer that wasn't there before...a glimmer that becomes a glow, and then an unnatural blaze. It would seem that whatever horrible fire gave him his name has remained lurking inside him all this time. GRANDMASTER TORCH EXPLODES! Roll a Reflex save! *picks up a huge bag of d6s....*"
So do people hate him solely for betraying the Decemvirate? That doesn't seem to add up.
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People hate him because of the... Questionable writing that took him completely out of character during those final few moments. And when I say out of character, I mean from starting off as basically a union leader to the Pathfinder Society's agents to basically flipping off everyone who was working for him while twirling a Snidely Whiplash style mustache and cackling as he teleports away, flaunting the fact that he doesn't need you anymore.
Granted, he has always been a schemer, but... His motivations for leaving were off, the WAY he left was off and most damningly, his entire personality is off.
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Granted, he has always been a schemer, but... His motivations for leaving were off, the WAY he left was off and most damningly, his entire personality is off.
Perhaps this is a case of "Power reveals one true character" and when Torch got exactly what he wanted he no longer needed to pretend to be someone else. Perhaps being the union leader was all an act to get what he wanted...
For my group, we started during season 5, they first dealt with Torch after what happened and were filled in with a basic story of being careful with him (I didn't know the details of what happened myself either).
Though after season 5 and before season 6 I ran a sort of Rise and Fall of the Shadow Lodge story arc since many scenarios from season 2 are connected with season 6.
With that all said, since my group did start in season 5, they developed a personal hatred for Temel Passad that most pathfinders hold for Grandmaster Torch. They were convinced that Passad was the true villain in Season 5 and at least one occasion tried pulling the face off one of the 2 main villains thinking it was Passad with a rubber mask.
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The reason people who hate Torch do so is that the likeable "union-leader" figure was a lie. It was a facade he constructed to gain more info from inside the society and using the society's agents. And then when he got what he wanted, he gave everyone the finger and ran off.
That level of betrayal, and the fact that he so successfully posed as a likeable figure, is the reason why people hate him so much now.
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The reason people who hate Torch do so is that the likeable "union-leader" figure was a lie. It was a facade he constructed to gain more info from inside the society and using the society's agents. And then when he got what he wanted, he gave everyone the finger and ran off.
That level of betrayal, and the fact that he so successfully posed as a likeable figure, is the reason why people hate him so much now.
He also inexplicably bailed out of that persona for no discernible reason, making the character and the writing around him very unliked.
I'm trying to think of a gentler comparison, but my comic book knowledge isn't that great... so this is going to sound a little unduly harsh.
Its the same hate on that people have for the spiderman "one more day" story. There was a change. Followed by an attempt to move back to the status quo by erasing peter parkers marriage from existance. That attempt to return to the status quo was hard to do to begin with and wasn't done well, so the story came off as very, very forced. Its even worse in a role playing game because it borders on dictating characters reaction to it, which is hand-waived as ;they help you get over it'
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I'm trying to understand how he was a likable union leader? Every single time I encountered him he wouldn't do anything for you unless you agreed to owe him a favor which half the time went on your record as a chronicle with a boon "owe Torch"... that's not a likable guy.
He changed a lot between seasons 2 and 3 when he signed up with the society rather than just being kept on retainer.
If you met him in first steps 3 he was the only faction head that seemed to care if you came back alive, didn't withhold some pretty vital information from you and gave you the best rundown on what you'd be doing.
Despite meeting the party in the bathtub to the tune of "rubber ducky, you're the one" he seemed like the sanest person in the society.
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Its the same hate on that people have for the spiderman "one more day" story. There was a change. Followed by an attempt to move back to the status quo by erasing peter parkers marriage from existance. That attempt to return to the status quo was hard to do to begin with and wasn't done well, so the story came off as very, very forced. Its even worse in a role playing game because it borders on dictating characters reaction to it, which is hand-waived as ;they help you get over it'
I'm with you there on hating the 'One More Day' storyline. But whilst I absolutely hate that it happened, I don't think it was done that poorly. In the sense that it was believable that Peter would do such a thing for Aunt May, and that Mephisto being an a******* would make such an offer. (Though I can't remember whether or not Peter first tried other mystical avenues such as Dr Strange or Asgardian techonology through Thor.)
But I guess my point is that you can hate that a story-decision happened (Spider-man being my absolute favourite comic-book character ever), but you also need to respect that just like real life, stories don't always go in directions you wish they did, and just as with real life, you either accept and cope with it or walk away from it altogether, but it does not change the status quo that in the story those things happened for those reasons.
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Despite meeting the party in the bathtub to the tune of "rubber ducky, you're the one" he seemed like the sanest person in the society.
Quick! Somebody make stats for Torch's rubber ducky!
Maybe it's a minor artifact...or a genie prison...or a soulbound doll...or an Occultist Implement...or his Eidolon....
So...Torch is Amon. Y/N?
Another guy who had a perfectly valid point but turned out to be evil.
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I'm with you there on hating the 'One More Day' storyline. But whilst I absolutely hate that it happened, I don't think it was done that poorly. In the sense that it was believable that Peter would do such a thing for Aunt May, and that Mephisto being an a******* would make such an offer. (Though I can't remember whether or not Peter first tried other mystical avenues such as Dr Strange or Asgardian techonology through Thor.)
He tried. "We are helpless before the power of plot! The universe itself is conspiring to force this decision on you! Dr Strange not being able to pull it off when he should have answered "pffths, you want me to do that with or without magic?" That was ... a rather large branch on the camels back.
But I guess my point is that you can hate that a story-decision happened (Spider-man being my absolute favourite comic-book character ever), but you also need to respect that just like real life, stories don't always go in directions you wish they did, and just as with real life, you either accept and cope with it or walk away from it altogether, but it does not change the status quo that in the story those things happened for those reasons.
Here's the difference though: this story is interactive. We're part of it, and a lot of folks are going to meet Dr. Strange next week and want to thwap him upside his well coiffed head and say "What the heck is wrong with you"
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Andrew, if attacking Torch in 4-23 is legitimate, then attacking him afterwards should be as well, yes? Torch is much more complicated than an "ally and an asset." Depending on the scenario you're running, he may be trying to undermine the Society and bring it down in a long-term revenge scheme. I'm not saying that the attack should be easy, and it might result in Torch not laughing it off, ending the interview, and closing the scenario after one or two scenes.
Let's see how well your PCs do in "Many Fortunes of Grandmaster Torch," when the information broker takes affront at your attack and ends your audience without giving you any information.
Likewise: your brilliant attack succeeds, and there's blood in the hot tub. Let's see how well you do when the information broker is floating face-down before he could give you any information.
Those seem to be more natural consequences than "the GM marks your characters as dead."
Understood. However, there has to be consequences for directly doing something the venture captain and the decemvirate dont want done. If they wanted him dead, that would be a mission, not using him as another information source.
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Thing is with Torch... He didn't HAVE to screw everyone over. What motivations would you have to do so? Great, you have what you wanted... Why in the hell would you just give up an army of loyal Shadow Lodge agents who would pretty much do whatever you ask? Why not, I don't know, just keep your vast array of humanoid resources at your disposal? Keep doing your behind the scenes stuff on your own time. If you're as good of a schemer as Torch is, there is no reason to show your hand to everyone.
I understand that Shadow Lodge was to be retired, and I will debate the wisdom of that elsewhere... But finding some other way would have been preferable. Do something befitting the character of both the schemer Torch and union leader Torch. For me, I am not upset that status quo changed, I am upset that it happened in the way that it did.
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People hate him because of the... Questionable writing that took him completely out of character during those final few moments. And when I say out of character, I mean from starting off as basically a union leader to the Pathfinder Society's agents to basically flipping off everyone who was working for him while twirling a Snidely Whiplash style mustache and cackling as he teleports away, flaunting the fact that he doesn't need you anymore.
Granted, he has always been a schemer, but... His motivations for leaving were off, the WAY he left was off and most damningly, his entire personality is off.
Except he didn't start as a union leader. Season three and four ate arguably the part that was out of character.
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I'm with you there on hating the 'One More Day' storyline. But whilst I absolutely hate that it happened, I don't think it was done that poorly. In the sense that it was believable that Peter would do such a thing for Aunt May, and that Mephisto being an a******* would make such an offer. (Though I can't remember whether or not Peter first tried other mystical avenues such as Dr Strange or Asgardian techonology through Thor.)He tried. "We are helpless before the power of plot! The universe itself is conspiring to force this decision on you! Dr Strange not being able to pull it off when he should have answered "pffths, you want me to do that with or without magic?" That was ... a rather large branch on the camels back.
But I guess my point is that you can hate that a story-decision happened (Spider-man being my absolute favourite comic-book character ever), but you also need to respect that just like real life, stories don't always go in directions you wish they did, and just as with real life, you either accept and cope with it or walk away from it altogether, but it does not change the status quo that in the story those things happened for those reasons.Here's the difference though: this story is interactive. We're part of it, and a lot of folks are going to meet Dr. Strange next week and want to thwap him upside his well coiffed head and say "What the heck is wrong with you"
And thwacking Dr Strange, or in this case GMT, upside the head for doing (not doing) what he did (didn't do) is a perfectly legitimate in-game response, I would think. But as the story is written, it seems his response would be "I fooled you guys for a purpose and dropped the act once I got what I needed out of it. Get over it and do the job you came here to do."
And I think this is precisely alot of characters hate GMT, because they actually liked him, then found out it was an all act. And as some have pointed out, it being all an act is actually consistent with seasons 1 and 2.
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Thing is with Torch... He didn't HAVE to screw everyone over. What motivations would you have to do so? Great, you have what you wanted... Why in the hell would you just give up an army of loyal Shadow Lodge agents who would pretty much do whatever you ask? Why not, I don't know, just keep your vast array of humanoid resources at your disposal? Keep doing your behind the scenes stuff on your own time. If you're as good of a schemer as Torch is, there is no reason to show your hand to everyone.
I understand that Shadow Lodge was to be retired, and I will debate the wisdom of that elsewhere... But finding some other way would have been preferable. Do something befitting the character of both the schemer Torch and union leader Torch. For me, I am not upset that status quo changed, I am upset that it happened in the way that it did.
Perhaps his nefarious and Macchiavellian reasons will be revealed in the future. Just because we dont understand the reasons for what on the surface seems a bad choice, does not make it so.
Assuming he's made a poor tactical choice may feed right into his plan.
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Thing is with Torch... He didn't HAVE to screw everyone over. What motivations would you have to do so? Great, you have what you wanted... Why in the hell would you just give up an army of loyal Shadow Lodge agents who would pretty much do whatever you ask? Why not, I don't know, just keep your vast array of humanoid resources at your disposal? Keep doing your behind the scenes stuff on your own time. If you're as good of a schemer as Torch is, there is no reason to show your hand to everyone.
I understand that Shadow Lodge was to be retired, and I will debate the wisdom of that elsewhere... But finding some other way would have been preferable. Do something befitting the character of both the schemer Torch and union leader Torch. For me, I am not upset that status quo changed, I am upset that it happened in the way that it did.
Perhaps his nefarious and Macchiavellian reasons will be revealed in the future. Just because we dont understand the reasons for what on the surface seems a bad choice, does not make it so.
Assuming he's made a poor tactical choice may feed right into his plan.
Yeah, there might be something there too. I think one thing that we can and should expect from GMT is that we have not seen his full hand yet. If you think you have, it's only because that's what he wants you to believe.
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And I think this is precisely alot of characters hate GMT, because they actually liked him, then found out it was an all act. And as some have pointed out, it being all an act is actually consistent with seasons 1 and 2.
He had no reason to drop the act when he did the way he did. It came with several risks of failure and no discernible benefits.
I can believe he would kick the dog. But its supposed to go over the goal post, land on a little old lady who drops her hot cheese onto the head of someone he's mad at and causes him to fall from the stands. THAT we could have bought. What happened? Not so much.