80 average? I have no idea how his stealth can be that high and I just got done making a crazy stealth character.
For my guy it was:
Dex 9
Competence 10 (Ring of Chameleon Power)
Small size 4
Racial 4 (goblin)
Ranks 15
Class Skill 3
Skill Focus 6
Morale 5 (Boots of the Battle Herald and a +1 Courageous weapon)
= +56 to stealth, and that's before the -10 from Hell Cat Stealth.
He lacks the size and racial boosts that I have, his Greater Shadow armor only gives a +5 more than my ring, and he has no other items to boost stealth that I see; he has Stealthy but that's not enough to make up the difference. Either his numbers are off or my dude is about to get that much better once you tell me what your player has.
He lacks the feat Dampen Presence though, so Blind Sense and Blind Sight can still detect him, though Blind Sense still gives the enemy a 50% miss chance. The spell Echolocation would shut him down; a lot of high tier outsiders tend to cast as PC classes so it's not totally unreasonable for those aware of the party's capabilities to have it ready.
16 ranks
6 skill focus
4 stealthy
9 dex
1 trait
15 competence
3 class skill
= 54There are a tiny amount of things with blindsight and blindsense. Dragons and oozes? How often do you fight a dragon lol
Okay, those numbers are more reasonable though still pretty much more than enough for anything. Glad the 80 average was an exaggeration.
Echolocation is a mid tier spell that grants Blindsight. That's not applicable to many monsters, but the intelligent kind with access to spells or resources and prep time against a known and feared foe could have it ready.
Scent
A dwarf in the dark (hellcat stealth relies on bending light. No light no hellcat stealth)
Blind sight/sense
Tremor sense
Delayed actions for stealth to break on attack
Just blast the entire area
Glitterdust, fairy fire,
Arcane sight (my what lovely auras you have)
Scent
A dwarf in the dark (hellcat stealth relies on bending light. No light no hellcat stealth)
Blind sight/sense
Tremor sense
Delayed actions for stealth to break on attack
Just blast the entire area
Glitterdust, fairy fire,
Arcane sight (my what lovely auras you have)
1. Move action needed to pin point the direction of the smell and then must be within 5ft to locate the exact square. Even if the square is located the PC still has total concealment because he can't be seen.
2. The PC also has Hide in Plain Sight for dim/darkness due to Shadow Dancer.
3. Blind sense isn't enough to really beat it and Blindsight is a bit of a niche ability.
4. Same issues as 1 as you know it is there but still can't see it he still has the concealment. Also at 16 the party may have constant group access to fly which would negate tremorsense.
5. Solid, but time consuming. Now ready a grapple...
6. PC has Evasion.
7. Definitely solid tactics, especially if the party would rather do other things then burn their turn to dispel it.
8. I never would have considered that. Very interesting.
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i have to ask: what exactly is he doign with that stealth that's so powerful? i mean sure he's hiding from them, but what does that do for him? with him not receiving any attention, that's more pointy bits aimed at the rest of the party (and he can't AoO them because that'd break stealth). I haven't found anything saying in the stealth skill that lets you hit flat-footed or something if you're successfully stealthed. is he just using it to not get targeted? AoE's should fix that right quick (avoid 'save for half' ones)
also, i'm pretty sure 'as part of a move' for stealth was meant as 'as part of a move [action]', not literally any time you move your mini. unless there's been an faq on the subject in favor of it, it sounds like you're letting him abuse something he shouldn't.
Silke doesn't care about aoe, very high reflex save and evasion. What he dies from stealth us pick a target and kill it dead with the target functionally being able to do nothing.
again, i'm surprised the enemy isnt just mauling his teammates while he's playing mr. invisible. or that they arent just flagrantly buffing in his face because he cant AoO their spellcasts without breaking invisibility and getting ganked by the other enemies.
Step 1, don't let him resume stealth using a 5ft step
Step 2, he can choose between making a full-attack and not being hidden using stealth or using stealth and being able to only make a single attack and moving so he can use stealth.
Shadow Dancer and Hellcat stealth actually require some light to work. Darkness/Deeper Darkness can completely negate his ability to stealth, and having darkvision is trivial.
Really, the first thing I mentioned is the issue.
I got into a really long discussion about Hide in Plain Sight and it's ilk with regards to being able to Stealth on only a 5ft move and got into a protracted argument with BBT.
also, kiting him/moving more than 10ft a round is an easy way to ruin his 'kill them dead' potential, since he'd have to chase (move action), get one hit (standard). (and then be visible till his next round, because stealthing should be for a move action not anytime he ever moves)
seriously though, what's possessed you to allow stealthing on a 5 foot step?
Scent is a move action to pinpoint the square, not super useful
Shadowdancer, remember? Hide in plain sight
Tremor sense isn't useful mostly because everyone was flying. He got it from a party member. Also wtf has tremorsense, spiders? It isn't "Rise of the Spider lords" man
Delayed actions do not work because you take your actions after his turn. He would attack you, then go back into stealth with a five foot step
glitterdust is ok if you have it, same with arcane sight, a personal spell not on many lists.
Hide in Plain Sight doesn't work in total darkness. In that situation, darkvision completely negates his ability to stealth because he lacks concealment.
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SLA'S change casting times to std action. I'd love to be wrong about it. (See universal minster rukes on SLA's)
I wouldnt be too worried about evil mind control as there are numerous ways to counter it. Neutral dominate persons...much harder.
Sense gives location not sight. It doesnt negate stealth. I'd love to be wrong as boots of tremor sense would negate supernatural darkness & invisibility.
A SLA ability's casting time is 1 standard action or as the spell it simulates.
It just so happens Righty, that Summoner's SLA for summon monster is special and allows him to summon as a standard instead of a 1 round.
Dominate Person as a SLA would function like the spell, and take 1 round.
Sorry thats the crb version the universal monster rules version is
Using all other spell-like abilities is a standard action unless noted otherwise.
It doesnt reference the spell as the crb does for players. Again I prefer to be wrong...its one way several dm's up the threat level.
If the SLA is listed in italics, it refers to the spell. That's part of the style guide.
Here's the Serpentfolk PRD entry as an example. You can even clearly see Paizo's intent here because the SLA links directly to the spell.
I built a high level character with similar stealth recently.My character also had a feat that let me ignore blindsight, and maybe scent when needed.
Also the stealth rules do not allow you to stealth while attacking, so just because he can hide in plain sight that does not bypass the rule saying he can use stealth while attacking.
However attacking, and then using a 5 foot step is legal.
He only has a +20 to hit. Unless he rolls high a lot, he should not be doing an outstanding amount of damage because he should have a decent amount of misses.
Also as others have said Maraliths are really bad for their CR.
Sorry thats the crb version the universal monster rules version is
Using all other spell-like abilities is a standard action unless noted otherwise.
It doesnt reference the spell as the crb does for players. Again I prefer to be wrong...its one way several dm's up the threat level.
If the SLA is listed in italics, it refers to the spell. That's part of the style guide.
Here's the Serpentfolk PRD entry as an example. You can even clearly see Paizo's intent here because the SLA links directly to the spell.
He means that the Universal Monster Rule doesn't reference using the spell's casting time, just that SLA are a standard action unless the ability notes otherwise.
I am sure he understands a Suggestion SLA works as per the Suggestion spell.
For what is worth, the Combat section lists using an SLA under Standard actions, saying the casting time is a standard action unless the ability says otherwise, no mention of referencing the spells normal casting time
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I prefer it to be more than a standard action. When I DM I use the longer version of the casting times for SLAs (player = monster) as it seems fair to me.
When I play a PC its very common to see SLA's as standard actions for (summon monster, dominate, etc.) as used by monsters. I read the prior discussion on SLA casting times (no conclusion just different opinions).
This question has come up several times with regard to the FAQ casting times for summon based spells(just one example). I think it needs to be FAQ'd. However I am FAQ'd out until one of my other FAQ's get answered.
What I do for my own games is let the monsters summon as a standard action. If they try it as a full round action I dont see them getting that spell off which already comes with a built in "might not work" chance.
Holy Aura will mess him up due to saves on each hit.
Readied Actions.
Alternate sight options as mentioned.
Shadowdancers require being within distance of a shedow, many good outsiders get Daylight, no shadow squares near them if it's running.
Several suggestions.
I prefer it to be more than a standard action. When I DM I use the longer version of the casting times for SLAs (player = monster) as it seems fair to me.
And I feel the whole point of having something like Lesser Restoration as a SLA is so you aren't standing around for 3 rounds.
...a reasonable encounter for the group would be three mariliths and some cronies.Mariliths aren’t great monsters for their CR, but let's roll with that. You don’t specify what the Marilith’s mooks are, but let’s suppose they include six succubi.
Succubi A through F: I ready an action to use Dominate Person on the first creature that injures one of my mistresses and has not yet been Dominated.
Shadowdancer: (Pops out of stealth, hits a Marilith)
Succubi A: Dominate! DC 23 will save.
Shadowdancer: 1d20+9
Succubus A: Well, that was easy. Kill your former companions.
Shadowdancer: That’s against my nature! 1d20+11 But I’ll do it for you, sexy! (Poof into stealth)
Former companions: ruh roh.
That's not how Dominate works. They're not "your former companions". They're still your companions. At best, that's going to give another roll. Odds are, though, it's covered under the "clearly self-destructive" caveat and would automatically fail.
That's not how Dominate works. They're not "your former companions". They're still your companions. At best, that's going to give another roll. Odds are, though, it's covered under the "clearly self-destructive" caveat and would automatically fail.
No.
"Obviously self-destructive" orders are "go jump into the lava" or "let me devour your soul."
"Go fight your friends" is likely "against your nature" unless the subject is evil, but would still only warrant a new save (with bonus).
I agree that the problem stems from letting him Stealth with a 5' step. Stealth is usually part of "movement" but a 5' step isn't really "movement" so much as an "adjustment."
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A 5 foot step is movement/moving. It just isn't a move action. This lines up with the combat chapter listing it as the other way of "moving" to avoid an AoO, other than withdrawing.
A specific quote:
She could instead limit her movement to a 5-foot step, as a free action, and not provoke any attacks of opportunity.
I don't see how blindsense, blindsight or similar abilities would help vs. stealth - the character is not invisible. Maybe I misinterpret the rules...
Concerning stealth and movement: RAW stealth does not even need an action at all - it is only usually combined with a move (i.e. sneaking = move, hiding = no move).
Besides, I also don't see the problems with the above mentioned character - a Will save of +9 - that's lousy for level 16, and her to hit is horrible too.
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Why can't he just be stealthy? He is level 16, lets face it, this stealth stuff is the coolest thing he will ever have with his character. I am of the opinion that a character build focusing on something shouldn't have his choices negated. Maybe most enemies should have anti magic fields and spell immunity; poor rogues and fighters always getting picked on for believe in their heart light.
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I don't see how blindsense, blindsight or similar abilities would help vs. stealth - the character is not invisible. Maybe I misinterpret the rules...
Blindsense says that you automatically detect all creatures you have line of sight to without needing to roll perception, but if you can't see them they still benefit from concealment. Blindsight is like blindsense except is says you negate concealment.
I would just like to note here that there is an error in the stat block. His attacks are actually +23/+18/+13 (1d8+20), +23/+18/+13 (1d8+16) This includes power attack, so if that were stopped the highest attack would be +27, a respectable attack rating. This build does decent enough damage. However the opponents would only be flat foot against the first of 6-7 attacks, and only around 2-4 will actually land.
AoO's disrupt stealth why does he have combat reflexes? Still this guy should be doing around 80 damage per round on a full attack including crits and misses. Also easily negated by moving 30 feet away and readying an action to hit when he comes into range. If he does move to attack he breaks stealth, gets hit, and can't stealth again as he already moved. You can't move, hit, five foot, stealth. You can't five foot any time you have already moved in a round.
Seriously this guy is not a problem, a cleric could prepare a few harms and do 150 damage at this level vs his 80 ish damage.
I tend to think there must be some mis-interpretation of the rules, I wouldn't be surprised if he was using a higher attack modifier than he actually has. Or maybe you are applying flatfoot AC to all his attacks.
I'm assuming he does roll his attacks, you don't think that just because he is stealthed he automatically hits do you? The opponents arent considered helpless or he could instead CdG instead.
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I would just like to note here that there is an error in the stat block. His attacks are actually +23/+18/+13 (1d8+20), +23/+18/+13 (1d8+16) This includes power attack, so if that were stopped the highest attack would be +27, a respectable attack rating. This build does decent enough damage. However the opponents would only be flat foot against the first of 6-7 attacks, and only around 2-4 will actually land.
AoO's disrupt stealth why does he have combat reflexes? Still this guy should be doing around 80 damage per round on a full attack including crits and misses. Also easily negated by moving 30 feet away and readying an action to hit when he comes into range. If he does move to attack he breaks stealth, gets hit, and can't stealth again as he already moved. You can't move, hit, five foot, stealth. You can't five foot any time you have already moved in a round.
Seriously this guy is not a problem, a cleric could prepare a few harms and do 150 damage at this level vs his 80 ish damage.
I tend to think there must be some mis-interpretation of the rules, I wouldn't be surprised if he was using a higher attack modifier than he actually has. Or maybe you are applying flatfoot AC to all his attacks.
I'm assuming he does roll his attacks, you don't think that just because he is stealthed he automatically hits do you? The opponents arent considered helpless or he could instead CdG instead.
A cleric casting harm does show how trivial the damage is but lets not forget that that is the tip of clerics and wizards who are one level away from 9th level spell, and can cast 3-5 8th level spells at least. Wizards are stopping time and creating their own plane of reality, clerics are summoning apocalyptic storms and gating in hordes of angels, the rogue is hiding pretty well; in pathfinder we call that balance.
Hide in Plain Sight doesn't work in total darkness. In that situation, darkvision completely negates his ability to stealth because he lacks concealment.Scent is a move action to pinpoint the square, not super useful
Shadowdancer, remember? Hide in plain sight
Tremor sense isn't useful mostly because everyone was flying. He got it from a party member. Also wtf has tremorsense, spiders? It isn't "Rise of the Spider lords" man
Delayed actions do not work because you take your actions after his turn. He would attack you, then go back into stealth with a five foot step
glitterdust is ok if you have it, same with arcane sight, a personal spell not on many lists.
This.
The shadowdancer in a game I'm in died because of this. Total darkness + no cover made all his nice bonuses to stealth irrelevant. Sure, he could have carried a candle but I somehow think that might have given him away, too.
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Hide in Plain Sight doesn't work in total darkness. In that situation, darkvision completely negates his ability to stealth because he lacks concealment.Scent is a move action to pinpoint the square, not super useful
Shadowdancer, remember? Hide in plain sight
Tremor sense isn't useful mostly because everyone was flying. He got it from a party member. Also wtf has tremorsense, spiders? It isn't "Rise of the Spider lords" man
Delayed actions do not work because you take your actions after his turn. He would attack you, then go back into stealth with a five foot step
glitterdust is ok if you have it, same with arcane sight, a personal spell not on many lists.
This.
The shadowdancer in a game I'm in died because of this. Total darkness + no cover made all his nice bonuses to stealth irrelevant. Sure, he could have carried a candle but I somehow think that might have given him away, too.
By level 16 it shouldn't be hard for him to have Blur up all of the time. Generally a good idea for any stealthy character - it makes Hide in Plain Sight unneeded as well.
By level 16 it shouldn't be hard for him to have Blur up all of the time. Generally a good idea for any stealthy character - it makes Hide in Plain Sight unneeded as well.Hide in Plain Sight doesn't work in total darkness. In that situation, darkvision completely negates his ability to stealth because he lacks concealment.Scent is a move action to pinpoint the square, not super useful
Shadowdancer, remember? Hide in plain sight
Tremor sense isn't useful mostly because everyone was flying. He got it from a party member. Also wtf has tremorsense, spiders? It isn't "Rise of the Spider lords" man
Delayed actions do not work because you take your actions after his turn. He would attack you, then go back into stealth with a five foot step
glitterdust is ok if you have it, same with arcane sight, a personal spell not on many lists.
This.
The shadowdancer in a game I'm in died because of this. Total darkness + no cover made all his nice bonuses to stealth irrelevant. Sure, he could have carried a candle but I somehow think that might have given him away, too.
You're right that by RAW it does, though I think many of us consider that interpretation silly.
If he's standing in the middle of a field it doesn't make him difficult to see at all. It simply makes him difficult to attack accurately because his form is blurry. It doesn't make conceptual sense to treat it as concealment which allows stealth, at least in my opinion.
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You're right that by RAW it does, though I think many of us consider that interpretation silly.If he's standing in the middle of a field it doesn't make him difficult to see at all. It simply makes him difficult to attack accurately because his form is blurry. It doesn't make conceptual sense to treat it as concealment which allows stealth, at least in my opinion.
*Shrug* - I can see that argument - but I think of it being sort of the similar to the idea that high HP means that you can be chopped in the face with an axe a couple dozen times.
I always thought of Blur making you just not notice someone's exact location visually to the point where their form starts to blur in your vision. Using that to stealth makes perfect sense, or at least as much as any Hide in Plain Sight ability does.