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So you agree the DC is 7ft, since that's the distance you need to cover with your jump? If not it shouldn't be hard for you to figure out with your rules what the DC should be for you, but it's impossible for us to do so since we don't understand the logic behind the rules you're using.
The disagreement he has with us is he refuses to divorce the distanced jumped from the distance moved.
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So you agree with me that it would be 11 to jump over the 10 foot pit if we were using feet, but because we're using a grid it's 15.
I follow that logic.
I'm confused how we get to some of your other answers though.
You're saying a 7ft pit is DC 12, right?
I think you're saying that rather than meet the distance on our jump we must exceed it, and that because of squares that exceeding must be by 5?
(This is why people think you're adding 5 btw)
Yes, people keep saying I'm adding 5ft, and that their method is "simple and straightforward".
Likewise I keep saying they're subtracting 5ft and that my method is "simple and straightforward".
We're truly at an impasse, since we just make the same claims about the other side.
I wholeheartedly believe that the DC is for distance traveled.
They wholeheartedly believe that the DC is for the obstacle.
That's what each of us reads in the Acrobatics description, and that's what makes sense to each of us.
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Thought I should bring this forward so it doesn't get lost on the last page.
But let me point out, with rules text, what the roll of 17 means.
For a running jump, the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jump...How many grid squares is 17 feet? It's 3.4 Now you cannot end your movement at 3.4 squares moved, so we either need to round down (unfair to the player for a 15' pit that they beat the DC for) or round up (also not valid if they are out of movement). OR (and the correct answer is) they jumped a distance of 17 feet, then continue their movement on solid ground if the pit was 17 feet or less in width.
Now, can you provide any rules text to invalidate any of this? Because if I jumped 17 feet, by the rules, are you going to claim that I didn't make it over a 16.99999 foot pit because I didn't move 20' yet (the grid aligned distance).
The rules are perfectly capable of handling jumps over non-grid aligned gaps - and gaps that are not multiples of 5' increments. And they perfectly spell out what the distance to clear that gap is. And posts by SKR show that this really is the intended design and not just the RAW. Further, nothing in the rules states, or hints at, that your jump is from center of grid to center of grid.
And real world measurements of distances jumped (toe-to-heel) indicate that a 10' jump would clear any pit of 10' or less.
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Something to consider
For the record, I'm not alone in this. I'm just the only person still posting about it.
Something to considerFor the record, I'm not alone in this. I'm just the only person still posting about it.
Alex realized he was wrong. I don't doubt that there are a few others who believe as you do. Your still out of step with RAW and RAI.
Yes, people keep saying I'm adding 5ft, and that their method is "simple and straightforward".
Likewise I keep saying they're subtracting 5ft and that my method is "simple and straightforward".
10 foot pit 10 foot DC. The equation literally can't get easier than an equals sign.
So you agree with me that it would be 11 to jump over the 10 foot pit if we were using feet, but because we're using a grid it's 15.
I follow that logic.
I'm confused how we get to some of your other answers though.
You're saying a 7ft pit is DC 12, right?
I think you're saying that rather than meet the distance on our jump we must exceed it, and that because of squares that exceeding must be by 5?
(This is why people think you're adding 5 btw)
Yes, people keep saying I'm adding 5ft, and that their method is "simple and straightforward".
Likewise I keep saying they're subtracting 5ft and that my method is "simple and straightforward".
We're truly at an impasse, since we just make the same claims about the other side.
I wholeheartedly believe that the DC is for distance traveled.
They wholeheartedly believe that the DC is for the obstacle.That's what each of us reads in the Acrobatics description, and that's what makes sense to each of us.
We say that the distance traveled in the jump is the distance of the obstacle needing to be crossed. Thus we both agree that the DC is the distance traveled with the jump, we just say that you only need to jump the distance you need to cross(like the acrobatics skills says) instead of the distance needed to complete your movement.
If you are going to sum up our stance please try to do it correctly. Whenever I sum up your stance I try to ask to make sure it's what you were saying.|
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Thought I should bring this forward so it doesn't get lost on the last page.But let me point out, with rules text, what the roll of 17 means.How many grid squares is 17 feet? It's 3.4 Now you cannot end your movement at 3.4 squares moved, so we either need to round down (unfair to the player for a 15' pit that they beat the DC for) or round up (also not valid if they are out of movement). OR (and the correct answer is) they jumped a distance of 17 feet, then continue their movement on solid ground if the pit was 17 feet or less in width.
For a running jump, the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jump...
I don't see the need to round up or down, and 17 doesn't meet any of the DCs on that chart, because the chart assumes a 5ft grid system.
Congratulations, you jumped 17ft. That's not enough to make a DC 20 jump, but it is enough to make a DC 15 jump.
If you're of the camp that uses 1ft increments instead of 5ft increments, cool, run with it. That would clear a 15ft pit with 1ft to spare.
It also hampers your stance if you can't sum us up correctly as it would lead one to suppose you're not actually understanding what we're saying.
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So you agree with me that it would be 11 to jump over the 10 foot pit if we were using feet, but because we're using a grid it's 15.
I follow that logic.
I'm confused how we get to some of your other answers though.
You're saying a 7ft pit is DC 12, right?
I think you're saying that rather than meet the distance on our jump we must exceed it, and that because of squares that exceeding must be by 5?
(This is why people think you're adding 5 btw)
Yes, people keep saying I'm adding 5ft, and that their method is "simple and straightforward".
Likewise I keep saying they're subtracting 5ft and that my method is "simple and straightforward".
We're truly at an impasse, since we just make the same claims about the other side.
I wholeheartedly believe that the DC is for distance traveled.
They wholeheartedly believe that the DC is for the obstacle.That's what each of us reads in the Acrobatics description, and that's what makes sense to each of us.
We say that the distance traveled in the jump is the distance of the obstacle needing to be crossed. Thus we both agree that the DC is the distance traveled with the jump, we just say that you only need to jump the distance you need to cross(like the acrobatics skills says) instead of the distance needed to complete your movement.
If you are going to sum up our stance please try to do it correctly. Whenever I sum up your stance I try to ask to make sure it's what you were saying.
As another poster mentioned much earlier in this thread, the point of contention comes down to this statement:
We disagree on what that statement means. If we can get an FAQ answered about just that one line, this debate ends.
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Now that I finally fully understand your position (I think) I'm not ready to give up quite yet.
Here's a post from SKR where he says an 11 ft jump is enough to clear a 10ft pit.
Why would you need to cross the part of the distance that's not pit but solid ground as part of the jump instead of just walking it?
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If you're of the camp that uses 1ft increments instead of 5ft increments, cool, run with it. That would clear a 15ft pit with 1ft to spare.What happens in the other camp? Where does the PC end up?
I thought I was clear, but you cut it out of your reply.
You don't round up or down, you simply determine which DC you met.
A 17ft jump meets the 15 DC.
You'd land 3 squares from your starting point.
If the pit you were trying to jump was 3 squares long, you'd fall in, assuming you failed your Reflex save to grab hold of the ledge.
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You don't round up or down, you simply determine which DC you met.
A 17ft jump meets the 15 DC.
You'd land 3 squares from your starting point.
If the pit you were trying to jump was 3 squares long, you'd fall in, assuming you failed your Reflex save to grab hold of the ledge.
So the PC lands in the 3rd square.
A 15ft pit extends through the 3rd square.
The PC has made the DC, and still falls in if he fails the Reflex save.
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It also hampers your stance if you can't sum us up correctly as it would lead one to suppose you're not actually understanding what we're saying.
What did I say that was incorrect?
I've asked this before. A few times. What am I missing? I desire this to end, and I'm 100% open to changing my mind (I've done it several times before on other issues), but it truly seems that we're simply at opposite ends of this discussion.
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10 foot pit 10 foot DC. The equation literally can't get easier than an equals sign.Yes, people keep saying I'm adding 5ft, and that their method is "simple and straightforward".
Likewise I keep saying they're subtracting 5ft and that my method is "simple and straightforward".
15 foot distance 15 foot DC. The equation literally can't get easier than an equals sign.
My position is supported by the number of squares you are moving your figurine on the grid.
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So you agree with me that it would be 11 to jump over the 10 foot pit if we were using feet, but because we're using a grid it's 15.
I follow that logic.
I'm confused how we get to some of your other answers though.
You're saying a 7ft pit is DC 12, right?
I think you're saying that rather than meet the distance on our jump we must exceed it, and that because of squares that exceeding must be by 5?
(This is why people think you're adding 5 btw)
Yes, people keep saying I'm adding 5ft, and that their method is "simple and straightforward".
Likewise I keep saying they're subtracting 5ft and that my method is "simple and straightforward".
We're truly at an impasse, since we just make the same claims about the other side.
I wholeheartedly believe that the DC is for distance traveled.
They wholeheartedly believe that the DC is for the obstacle.That's what each of us reads in the Acrobatics description, and that's what makes sense to each of us.
We say that the distance traveled in the jump is the distance of the obstacle needing to be crossed. Thus we both agree that the DC is the distance traveled with the jump, we just say that you only need to jump the distance you need to cross(like the acrobatics skills says) instead of the distance needed to complete your movement.
If you are going to sum up our stance please try to do it correctly. Whenever I sum up your stance I try to ask to make sure it's what you were saying.
You might want to reread what you quoted, then.
If you still think I've misinterpreted your statement, please (honestly) tell me how.
Excuse me, but has this really been a 400+ in 12 hours topic, simply debating about the DC required to jump across X distance?
Past my bedtime, good night.
Excuse me, but has this really been a 400+ in 12 hours topic, simply debating about the DC required to jump across X distance?Yeah! Why do you ask? :D
Ah, I see, thank you. I just wanted to double check and make sure I wasn't missing the meaning of life somewhere in the midst of this rules lawyering. Please ignore my interruption and carry on folks.
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Now that I finally fully understand your position (I think) I'm not ready to give up quite yet.
Here's a post from SKR where he says an 11 ft jump is enough to clear a 10ft pit.
That's one of the links Cheapy provided several hundred posts back. I've actually been relying on it to support my side of the debate.
If the player asks "how far is it?," and the GM says "about 10 feet," and the player uses Take 10 because he knows his Take 10 result gets him 11 feet, that's fine.
It sure seems (to me) that he's saying that "distance crossed" needs to be greater than the "distance of the obstacle". He's just using the 1ft paradigm rather than the 5ft that I use.
Either way, when people in this thread claim that a DC 10 is all you need to jump over a 10ft pit, his answer doesn't support that.
Or are people interpreting his statement in some other way?
EDIT: Goodnight! I should get some sleep, too.
10 foot pit 10 foot DC. The equation literally can't get easier than an equals sign.Yes, people keep saying I'm adding 5ft, and that their method is "simple and straightforward".
Likewise I keep saying they're subtracting 5ft and that my method is "simple and straightforward".
15 foot distance 15 foot DC. The equation literally can't get easier than an equals sign.
My position is supported by the number of squares you are moving your figurine on the grid.
Which isn't something you think about while moving. If you're looking at the map, you see two lines X distance apart and a plunging valley deep below. The game will describe an X foot wide pit. People think of it as an X foot wide pit. Even you're describing it as an x foot wide pit , not an obstacle which is required to be traversed with x +5 feet.
Now that I finally fully understand your position (I think) I'm not ready to give up quite yet.
Here's a post from SKR where he says an 11 ft jump is enough to clear a 10ft pit.
That's one of the links Cheapy provided several hundred posts back. I've actually been relying on it to support my side of the debate.
If the player asks "how far is it?," and the GM says "about 10 feet," and the player uses Take 10 because he knows his Take 10 result gets him 11 feet, that's fine.It sure seems (to me) that he's saying that "distance crossed" needs to be greater than the "distance of the obstacle". He's just using the 1ft paradigm rather than the 5ft that I use.
Either way, when people in this thread claim that a DC 10 is all you need to jump over a 10ft pit, his answer doesn't support that.
Or are people interpreting his statement in some other way?
EDIT: Goodnight! I should get some sleep, too.
He's really only saying that the player knows that taking 10 will give him a result of 11. He's not saying that a result of 10 wouldn't also be fine.
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I don't think his statement was meant to be a definitive '11 is the minimum required'. He could have used 13 as an example that was assured to pass.
He's really only saying that the player knows that taking 10 will give him a result of 11. He's not saying that a result of 10 wouldn't also be fine.
Then why provide the quote?
That's what I take away from it.
How do other people interpret it?
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10 foot pit 10 foot DC. The equation literally can't get easier than an equals sign.Yes, people keep saying I'm adding 5ft, and that their method is "simple and straightforward".
Likewise I keep saying they're subtracting 5ft and that my method is "simple and straightforward".
15 foot distance 15 foot DC. The equation literally can't get easier than an equals sign.
My position is supported by the number of squares you are moving your figurine on the grid.
Which isn't something you think about while moving. If you're looking at the map, you see two lines X distance apart and a plunging valley deep below. The game will describe an X foot wide pit. People think of it as an X foot wide pit. Even you're describing it as an x foot wide pit , not an obstacle which is required to be traversed with x +5 feet.
I'm a very visual person (though I know everyone says that).
I don't see it as "x + 5 feet".
I see it as "x squares moved".
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He said 11 would pass a 10' span.
He also said clearing a 12' pit would fail if the acrobatics result was 11. So there is ammo for both sides.
Seriously though, the CRB states a 10' long jump is dc 10. If the gm says 11, no problem, as he can make circumstantial modifiers anyway.
If a GM jacks up the dc by 5, because my heroic figure isn't intelligent enough to jump from the edge of the pit and instead jumps 2.5 feet early and must exceed the far edge by another 2.5' to avoid falling in... I would seriously question the choices in my life leading to this.
I would also follow that individual all night to ensure he was walking in 5' increments every time he left the table.
A 10' span is dc 10. You will need 15' movement available to occupy the far side.
Edit: Sarcasm included for effect only. Nefreet I appreciate your wisdom on the forums, but your interpretation here is outside established dc's in the CRB based simply on a fixation on squares. Squares are a necessary mechanic but we shouldn't be chained by them. This results in a poorer game as heroic characters are reduced to bumbling idiots. The increase of 5 is too much outside RAW in any case. It is literally the difference between swinging a +5 sword like Excalibur and a rusty sword to hit an opponent.
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If the pit it a five foot diameter circle and you're jumping over it diagonally, the distance travelled (over the grid) is 15 feet. If you're don't want to have to imagine jumps that aren't measured in exact grid squares, then you have to jump 15 feet to clear the five foot pit, and if you only make it fourteen feet, you fall into the pit. This is an ridiculous conclusion, like saying it's impossible to fit five people into a ten foot by ten foot room, but it uses internally consistent logic, and so it cannot be defeated by logic.
It was already clarified in the link on page 1. "If you know on average you can jump 10 feet, and you find a chasm that's 5-9 feet across, then you know you can jump across".
You can jump across a 9 foot gap buy jumping 10 feet. You don't have to jump 15 feet.
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My swashbuckler likes to use expeditious retreat.
He moves 10 feet. Jumps over a 20 foot pit. Moves 30 feet. Thwacks the bad guy.
Does he have to make a DC 60 jump check because he moved 60 feet?
If not, distance you move and distance you clear aren't the same thing.
It's just like difficult terrain. Entering the square is 10' if the square is difficult terrain, or 15' if entered on a diagonal. In your example with the 20' pit, you enter 4 pit squares and exit on normal terrain. 20ft jump, 5ft walk.That's hardly irrelevant. The text under the diagram is, to my knowledge, the only place in the book that describes how you determine the movement requirements of a square.Call me daft, then. I'm still not following.
Perhaps you have the answer to all my questions, and I just cannot comprehend it.
Obviously if your landing point is difficult terrain, that will hamper your movement. I don't think anything I've said goes against that. To my knowledge, it shouldn't effect the jump DC, but even if it does, it's irrelevant to what we're discussing.
Here let me help clarify his point.
[Y][P][P][L]
So to start you see what will it take to move into the next square, 5ft of jumping. So now we're here
[L][Y][P][L]
now you see what it takes to enter the next square, 5ft more jumping for total of 10ft of jumping so far. Now you're here
[L][P][Y][L]
now you see what it takes to enter the next square, 5ft of walking for a normal terrain square, so you walk that 5ft. So you've jumped 10ft, 5ft to enter each square, and then walked 5ft to enter the final square.
Thus you calculate the needed movement amounts for entering squares to determine how much and what kind of movements are need to traverse said squares.
Yup.
10 foot pit 10 foot DC. The equation literally can't get easier than an equals sign.Yes, people keep saying I'm adding 5ft, and that their method is "simple and straightforward".
Likewise I keep saying they're subtracting 5ft and that my method is "simple and straightforward".
15 foot distance 15 foot DC. The equation literally can't get easier than an equals sign.
My position is supported by the number of squares you are moving your figurine on the grid.
Which isn't something you think about while moving. If you're looking at the map, you see two lines X distance apart and a plunging valley deep below. The game will describe an X foot wide pit. People think of it as an X foot wide pit. Even you're describing it as an x foot wide pit , not an obstacle which is required to be traversed with x +5 feet.
I'm a very visual person (though I know everyone says that).
I don't see it as "x + 5 feet".
I see it as "x squares moved".
Quit thinking about it in terms of squares and you're golden.
Let me ask you this, if one player wants to take an action outside of combat, do you still roll initiative?
Edit: To put it another way, you say the grid is an abstraction, why are you forcing the grid into the question/your answer?
So to start you see what will it take to move into the next square, 5ft of jumping.
If you move up to the edge of your square and jump six inches, you have jumped to the next square.
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I think we're all talking past each other a bit and I think we can get to a more fundamental place of discussion.
Apologies to Nefreet if I miss the crux of his point, but I think it boils down to the following:
1.) Movement in Pathfinder is in 5' increments and you can't end up in between squares. Therefore, when you cross a 15' foot pit, you travel 20'.
2.) Each square of movement is an atomic unit. Therefore, you are flying for that square, walking for that square, or jumping for that square, etc..
3.) In order to use a movement mode for a square of movement, it must be valid in both the origin and the destination.
Therefore, because each of the four squares of movement involves a place where there's no ground, you cannot be walking and must be jumping all four of them.
Now, at the risk of arguing with my own straw man, the point where my view (and I think a lot of the posters' views) differs from this is that I don't really view jumping as its own movement type. It doesn't have its own speed, for example. Therefore, it's more of an action within your normal movement and doesn't have to conform to squares as such. While tactical combat views a person as a 5' cube, their movement could really be tracked at their feet and, barring some strange feet, you don't have to change your position by 20' to (in-world) get over a 15' pit.
Now, we can talk about whether you lift off before your toes leave the platform or not and whether you need to get your heel on the opposite side to really gain traction or how we actually measure that (the 15 vs 16 crowd), but I think this is a more fundamental and more interesting discussion. Plus, I'm bad enough at sports that I don't feel nearly as qualified on that one.
I can't believe a thread with a topic as innocuous as this has over four hundred posts in less than 24 hours.
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For the record, I didn't click FAQ because this is dumb.
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Here, in ASCII, is what Bob's original DC 20 Acrobatics check, and his 20ft (4 squares) jump looks like:
[B][X][X][X][L]
[B][P][P][P][P]
I didn't see anyone really tackle this scenario, so I thought I'd draw it out. I've edited the second scenario for clarity.
[ B ][X][X][X][ L ]
[B|P][P][P][P][P|L]
The world isn't measured in 5ft squares.
I still even say that a 10 foot jump is enough to jump 10 feet pit. you start with your heel on the ledge, and jump 10 feet, you land on the front half of your foot.