So after I finish GM'ing the campaign we're in, I'll be able to go back to being a player again with my 13th level Kensai 12/Inspired Blade 1 character.
The lottery part is that another player, who I haven't been letting him play any Lycanthrope characters, is finally going to be able to play an old Were-Fox rogue he had and the GM will let him convert over to Unchained Rogue.
The GM knows how vocal myself and another player were before about letting someone play a Lycanthrope at low levels and told us we could add any reasonable +1 Template or something to our characters for fairness etc... I actually asked if I could have the secondary Variant Multi-classing instead of the Advanced template but without having to burn feats to get it. He said yeah thats fine go ahead. LOTTERY WINNING.
So what would you guys choose? A template like Advanced or VMC another class? I was originally going to VMC anyway into Wizard and lose feats to do it, now I can keep them OR burn them anyway and take a template too. What's a Magus to do?
I'm a little worried though, before at level 6 me and some party members had the Were-Fox thrown in prison for a bounty that was on his head, and to keep us from being ambushed from bounty hunters periodically. Might have some payback happening at some point in the future.
14th level is considered low?
I meant when we were at level 6 and below, we were vocal about him playing a Lycanthrope added on to his normal character levels.
We're at level 13 now, and he'll be bringing back the character he had retired at level 6.
What resources are allowed in this game? 3.5 Material? PF only? 3PP?
My best advice would be to variant into Witch, grab the fortune hex and take a feat for the cackle. It's honestly super powerful in use, if not on paper.
Gilfalas wrote: What resources are allowed in this game? 3.5 Material? PF only? 3PP? Paizo Pathfinder only, can be from any book, but no 3.5 or 3rd party.
Morganstern wrote: My best advice would be to variant into Witch, grab the fortune hex and take a feat for the cackle. It's honestly super powerful in use, if not on paper. This isn't going to work, VMC into Witch specifically states you can never gain the Extra Hex Feats. Even if I could do this, I don't think it's worth it at all.
honestly id take the advanced template +4 to all stats plus static bonuses to AC/ Attack Damage etc no 3 feats will give you all that
Koshimo wrote: honestly id take the advanced template +4 to all stats plus static bonuses to AC/ Attack Damage etc no 3 feats will give you all that Seriously considering it, with the boosts from Natural Armor & stats raising, I'd get +6 AC and +2 hit/damage, +4 more to Initiative too. However going VMC, he said I get that for FREE, I won't have to spend feats to get that at all. Both choices are very, very tempting.
I think what he's saying is free VMC = 3 free feats < free advanced template.
you would have + 4 attack and damage, +10 AC, +6 init +4 to all saves +4 attack of opportunities per round, +4 panache, extra spells per day, 2 more skills, 2 more languages +4hp/hd
overall i think you are seriously undervaluing how amazing advanced template is
If you are set on the VMC, might I suggest VMC Wizard with the Void School? Increased saves against spells, a free Arcane Discovery (Knowledge is Power is a good one if you care about Combat Maneuvers at all, as it adds your INT to your CMB and your CMD).
Rather than VMC'ing though, if you guys are level 13, consider asking your DM to be a level 11 Gestalt between the classes you already have (i.e., a Gestalt, but with a 2 level penalty). The Level 11 ability for the Inspired Blade is considerably more OP with access to Spellstrike, IMHO. Crits on demand are powerful, plus you'll save on Arcana/feats.
Koshimo wrote: you would have + 4 attack and damage, +10 AC, +6 init +4 to all saves +4 attack of opportunities per round, +4 panache, extra spells per day, 2 more skills, 2 more languages +4hp/hd
overall i think you are seriously undervaluing how amazing advanced template is
I don't think you're supposed to apply the Quick Rules AND the Rebuild Rules.
My advice would be to tell your GM he is making a mistake. The were-fox template isn't very powerful at this point and since you guys have already screwed with another player through your whining and forced him to play something else for a while, it seems reasonable that now that he finally gets to play his character again he can be the one with a little bit more cool.
Keep your character just as it is. Don't try to scrounge or beg for the most powerful option that will most likely just ruin the game.
Dave Justus wrote: you guys have already screwed with another player through your whining and forced him to play something else for a while Huh? OP was GM, and did not allow any Lycanthrope PC. That's neither whining nor screwing with anyone. And OP is totally justified in not wanting lycanthropes starting from level 1 when DR 10/silver is huge if the other PCs weren't counterbalanced in some way.
Also, the way I'm reading it, this guy was allowed to play his werefox from starting level to 6. He already got to be the one with "a little bit more cool". And by "a little", I mean stupid amounts.
I would just Go with the Advanced Template, it's not super exciting but it's definitely good.
Jaunt wrote: Dave Justus wrote: you guys have already screwed with another player through your whining and forced him to play something else for a while Huh? OP was GM, and did not allow any Lycanthrope PC. That's neither whining nor screwing with anyone. And OP is totally justified in not wanting lycanthropes starting from level 1 when DR 10/silver is huge if the other PCs weren't counterbalanced in some way.
Also, the way I'm reading it, this guy was allowed to play his werefox from starting level to 6. He already got to be the one with "a little bit more cool". And by "a little", I mean stupid amounts. "The GM knows how vocal myself and another player were before about letting someone play a Lycanthrope"
"we were at level 6 and below, we were vocal about him playing a Lycanthrope "
"he'll be bringing back the character he had retired at level 6"
Now, I wouldn't as a GM let a player make a were-fox at level 6. If the character contracted lycanthropy though I'd go with it. In any event, at this point the lycanthropy template is pretty minor and a fairly weak +1 template. The OP trying to find the most powerful combo possible isn't trying for a balanced game.
Rogue is a surprisingly solid VMC. You'll have a +2D6 Sneak Attack, becoming +3D6 next level, Trapfinding and Evasion now, and next level you get Uncanny Dodge. Offensively it roughly matches the Advanced template if you can efficiently set up Sneak Attack (and I mean, Greater Invisibility is on your spell list, so that's just a question of what you're fighting).
Last time you brought up... I think Alchemist and Wizard as VMCs? Alch is pretty terrible here, depressingly. Wizard is solid though. I recall you had Elemental Spell, so Admixture is freeing up a feat-- any thoughts on what you would grab with it? Diviner's really not as great for a Kensai, since their initiative is already so huge. Void's solid, though I really wish Reveal Weakness was a SLA. How are your saves?
Looking at your alternatives, the big question is what your options are. Can you just apply the +1 template or could you go deeper? There's access to the Young template for some real cheese; Young Vampire in particular is rather funny, and still nets to a CR+1.
Dave Justus wrote: My advice would be to tell your GM he is making a mistake. The were-fox template isn't very powerful at this point and since you guys have already screwed with another player through your whining and forced him to play something else for a while, it seems reasonable that now that he finally gets to play his character again he can be the one with a little bit more cool.
Keep your character just as it is. Don't try to scrounge or beg for the most powerful option that will most likely just ruin the game.
Based on Eigengrau's previous posts, werefox-guy has a habit of playing stuff significantly more powerful than the rest of the group and trying to dominate sessions-- and he was running the werefox earlier in this game, though I dunno what caused the break. He's screwing with other players by doing his thing already. Having seen and commented on some of his work, it's moved beyond "I want to be creative" and into "I want to be broken, and am terrible at subtlety". If everybody gets to be as powerful as he is, then nobody has room to complain.
PJFrost wrote: Koshimo wrote: you would have + 4 attack and damage, +10 AC, +6 init +4 to all saves +4 attack of opportunities per round, +4 panache, extra spells per day, 2 more skills, 2 more languages +4hp/hd
overall i think you are seriously undervaluing how amazing advanced template is
I don't think you're supposed to apply the Quick Rules AND the Rebuild Rules. yeah a couple of my friends pointed that out to me still powerful but way less so now
If you are taking the VMC, I'd say the Inquisitor and Magus are the best, and you're already a Magus. The judgment might be only one battle per day, but it offers a huge amount of versatility. The solo tactics offer you a wide variety of great feats (that would be very meh with out the solo tactics) to use, and stern gaze is just gravy.
Depending on your character style the Sorcerer VMC can be great too.
I'd go rogue, ranger, or something else that'll give you passive buffs to tack onto your magus abilities. Advanced template is tempting, but really just gives you bigger numbers with no new capabilities.
Also, Were-foxes are silly.
@ Kestral287, Rogue VMC would net me Trapfinding and some SA dice, I've already have Evasion/Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny through my Arcane Deed Evasive.
I've really wanted to go with Wizard VMC and grab the Admixture school, since Unchained came out, practically drooling at the time.
The Advanced Template is also worth drooling over as well. Any type of undead or lycanthrope template or anything that changes my body from humanoid to some kind of bestial creature is also out. I might rearrange feats and take the VMC normally and the Advanced template... not entirely sure.
@ Kaboogy, Inquisitor is okay, but then I'd have to spend feats I don't have to spare to get those cool Teamwork feats to make use of the Solo Tactics. Not worth the effort to do.
@ Dave Justus, the lycanthrope character and the player in general, railroads the story all the time, he also had some powerful modern firearms as well at those low levels. We attracted bounty hunters on our trail, ambushes, negative NPC attitudes and made us outlaws due to association with him. We couldn't even begin to finish our normal quests, so we collaborated with authorities and had him arrested, versus fighting good aligned militia. Nobody's feelings were hurt.
The character I play is all about unlocking his potential as the ultimate duelist. I try every combat to do swashbuckling style of things you see in movies and always go after the biggest threat on two legs in every encounter. It's been a race sometimes to get there before the 2 archer types in our party drop that "biggest threat" though.
I play my Kensai as an opportunist, with subterfuge and misdirection and also use my high intelligence to my advantage. I'm all about hiding my true potential and then unleashing it upon an unsuspecting foe. Every NPC in my mind is a potential enemy or has a hidden agenda, due to my cynical nature. When we get somehow involved with a major NPC, I always try to come up with scenarios in my head, where that NPC is up to something and what I can do to counter or be prepared for it.
My Kensai is all about physical & mental perfection and he loathes Undead, Aberrations, Lycanthropes and all forms of firearms. I view firearms as the lazy, coward's way of dealing with problems. I shy away from dealings with Outsiders and view them with distrust.
So far I've not used any of the normal cheese that Magi have recommended to their builds on these boards. I've yet to metamagic any spell, but I've retrained feats to do so going forward.
The encounters we have, have been customized monsters or NPC's, most of which my Knowledge skills have not yielded pertinent info on them on how to defeat or prepare for. There have been times that the combat encounter has lasted most of the evening due to it. They've been epic though and I've used almost my entire allotment of spells to get through it. Our campaign is supposed to go past level 20.
Frankly I'd do the one you were drooling over.
Advanced is solid, very solid, but it's a bunch of numbers, and while numbers are awesome they're also forgettable. You like this character a lot. Do the thing you'll remember.
kestral287 wrote: Frankly I'd do the one you were drooling over.
Advanced is solid, very solid, but it's a bunch of numbers, and while numbers are awesome they're also forgettable. You like this character a lot. Do the thing you'll remember.
Super solid advice right there. VMC Admixture Wizard it is then. Now I need to figure out my famliar situation and whether or not to get an improved version.
kestral287 wrote: Frankly I'd do the one you were drooling over.
Advanced is solid, very solid, but it's a bunch of numbers, and while numbers are awesome they're also forgettable. You like this character a lot. Do the thing you'll remember.
i disagree with your assessment here, because the question isn't simply VMC, or Template you are ignoring the 3rd option here 3 Feats
Eigengrau has the choice of 2 out of 3 I don't think there are any 3 feats that are better than the Advanced Template
I personally would do the VMC, and Advanced and lose the feats
Eigengrau, I think you should tone it down a little. Advanced template is probably going to be leaps and bounds better than the benefits of werefox.
Never underestimate the power of having an innocuous alternate form, nor of being able to be Patient Zero wherever it is you go.
You could also use a template besides the Advanced one. It's true that Advanced literally never stops being useful, but there are other options.
For example, taking the Fortune-Blessed* template would let you do a true strike once a minute to be sure you hit, plus a reroll and some various other static bonuses. If you want a character who's known for succeeding even on unlikely things, that could work well.
(*From the Advanced Bestiary, which is technically 3PP but referenced by Paizo so often that it might as well be official)
The Dragon wrote: Eigengrau, I think you should tone it down a little. Advanced template is probably going to be leaps and bounds better than the benefits of werefox. I should elaborate further. The rogue is updating to Unchained and jumping 7 levels with the benefits of WBL added in. He already had modern firearms and the Lycanthrope (natural one) already. These are the only things I know he has or is getting, the GM didn't elaborate on what other shenanigans he's up to, except that he made the player roll to see if he could "get" or "do whatever" and he only gave him a 5% chance for "whatever" that was. Needless to say he got that 5% and there's something secretive about whatever he's doing besides being a Lycanthrope. That's when the GM said the rest of us could go ahead and pick out a +1 template or something.
Odd's are he'll be more than "just" a were-fox UnCh. rogue.
GM Rednal wrote: You could also use a template besides the Advanced one. It's true that Advanced literally never stops being useful, but there are other options.
For example, taking the Fortune-Blessed* template would let you do a true strike once a minute to be sure you hit, plus a reroll and some various other static bonuses. If you want a character who's known for succeeding even on unlikely things, that could work well.
(*From the Advanced Bestiary, which is technically 3PP but referenced by Paizo so often that it might as well be official)
Once the doors are opened for 3PP material, there's no shutting those doors down the road. I want to stick to it, there's too much potential to be lured to 3pp stuff that could wreck havoc. Paizo gives us enough things that can do crazy stuff as it is.
Koshimo wrote: kestral287 wrote: Frankly I'd do the one you were drooling over.
Advanced is solid, very solid, but it's a bunch of numbers, and while numbers are awesome they're also forgettable. You like this character a lot. Do the thing you'll remember.
i disagree with your assessment here, because the question isn't simply VMC, or Template you are ignoring the 3rd option here 3 Feats
Eigengrau has the choice of 2 out of 3 I don't think there are any 3 feats that are better than the Advanced Template
I personally would do the VMC, and Advanced and lose the feats Three feats now, five feats, including his next one, and level 15 is Spell Perfection level. Since he's switching gears to break out the metamagic, Spell Perfection is suddenly a Really Big Deal.
Advanced is decent, but whether numbers are worth expanded capabilities is an old debate. It would depend on the feats given up, and what he was looking at going forward.
Eigengrau wrote: Morganstern wrote: My best advice would be to variant into Witch, grab the fortune hex and take a feat for the cackle. It's honestly super powerful in use, if not on paper. This isn't going to work, VMC into Witch specifically states you can never gain the Extra Hex Feats. Even if I could do this, I don't think it's worth it at all. Sorry, didn't see the part about not qualifying for Extra Hex (odd to place it with Patron and not Hex) so disregard that.
Yeah, adding a template seems like the best bet. Are you focused into a single spell (shocking grasp and such) or planning on more versatility?
So far taking VMC Wizard with Admixture school, here is what my feats will look like now.
Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus Rapier, Fencing Grace
Heighten Spell, Knowledge is Power, Maximize Spell, Empower Spell, Intensify Spell, Preferred Spell, Extra Arcana: Arcane Deed (precise strike), Extra Arcana: Arcane Deed (bleeding wound), Extra Arcana: Spell Blending
Normally obtained Arcanas: Flamboyant Arcana, Arcane Accuracy, Arcane Deed: Evasive
I'll have a familiar which is meh to me but will probably pick one that has a bonus to initiative.
Haven't decided on the Cantrip yet though. Prestidigitation might be one or Detect Magic.
Grab a cantrip you can't get from Magus. Something like Mending would be more useful.
Barring that, a cantrip that's useful to be able to cast silently and without movement, something like Mage Hand.
Forgot that I have to choose my Cantrip from the Evocation school...
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