On PFS free rebuild, retraining, and feat prerequisites


Pathfinder Society

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Lantern Lodge 5/5

While this is a rules question, it's more about PFS policy.

Hypothetical situation:

I have 3 XP, and I'm looking to show up with a level 2 human rogue to my next session.

I know that you can legally retrain your level 1 feats to ones you didn't qualify fo at level 1, so I could sit down with both (say) Power Attack and Quick Draw.

My question is, how much does the free rebuild cover and how much would need to be paid retraining? Or, put differently, when does the free rebuild stop?

Other Hypothetical:
I have 9XP of GM credit. When I build a level 4 fighter, can I choose to retrain my 3rd level feat into Spring Attack, using my 4th level one for Weapon Specialization? Do I have to pay for it?

Disclaimer: I understand that this is against the spirit of the rules. If it's allowable, I'd at least like to know the specifics.

Grand Lodge 4/5

The free rebuild can only be used to make a character that could have arisen organically via play. You'd need to use paid retraining to cover anything like swapping your first level feat to Power Attack if you're not a full BAB class.

Lantern Lodge 5/5

Are you able to "retrain" as much as you can afford via spreading it across multiple chronicles, then?

5/5

Jayson MF Kip wrote:
Are you able to "retrain" as much as you can afford via spreading it across multiple chronicles, then?

Pretty much, yeah.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Jayson MF Kip wrote:
Are you able to "retrain" as much as you can afford via spreading it across multiple chronicles, then?

Since you can only earn 6 Prestige* per level, and most retraining options require spending 5 Prestige, there's not a whole lot of retraining you can accomplish during your career.

*:
For most people, anyways.

There are a handful of Chronicles that do grant bonus Prestige, and a handful of Boons that allow you to recover spent Prestige. One especially useful vanity, acquired by playing a low level Module and spending 15 Prestige up front, allows you to make Day Job rolls to recover spent Prestige. Assuming you earned 6 Prestige every level, acquired the vanity at level 4, and progressed Slow Track for the rest of your career, you could essentially net an extra ~45 Prestige by the time you hit level 12 (plus any other methods of regaining or earning Prestige).

So, if you really dedicate yourself to that, it's possible to squeeze in a lot of extra retraining, but honestly, that's probably quite overboard.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Jeff Merola wrote:
The free rebuild can only be used to make a character that could have arisen organically via play. You'd need to use paid retraining to cover anything like swapping your first level feat to Power Attack if you're not a full BAB class.

Got a citation for that, Jeff?

Quote:
At the start of a Pathfinder’s career, you are allowed to adjust your character before settling in for the long haul. Before you level up a character for the first time, you may change any aspect of it except its Pathfinder Society Number. Changes may only be made between adventures and before playing as a character above 1st level. Any exceptions will be noted in the Pathfinder Society FAQ. You are able to keep all treasure, Prestige Points, special boons, and XP that you have earned and apply them to the character once you retrain as long as the character meets the criteria above. You are only able to retrain into a legal race.

I don't see that limitation you cited in there.

Also, how about the following situation, or something similar:
PC played for 3 XP at first level, in this case as a Fighter (Archer), through all three First Steps scenarios while they were still legal to play for PFS credit.

Player is also a GM, and ran Feast of Ravenmoor (2-4) for a group, and applied this GM credit to this PC.

The person then went on to play a game of The Dragon's Demand in campaign mode, and assigned all 4 chronicles to this same PC.

Played: 3 XP, only at 1st level
2nd level: GM module credit (2-4)
3rd level: Campaign mode module credit (1-3)
4th level: Campaign mode module credit (3-5)
5th level: Campaign mode module credit (5-7)
6th level: Campaign mode module credit (2, 4, 6)
7th level: taken to a table

PC is now 7th level, but has never been played past first, so still eligible for full rebuild. What are the limits of the rebuild, besides not selling off partial consumables or items bought with PP?

3/5

kinevon wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
The free rebuild can only be used to make a character that could have arisen organically via play. You'd need to use paid retraining to cover anything like swapping your first level feat to Power Attack if you're not a full BAB class.

Got a citation for that, Jeff?

It's right after the paragraph you quoted. :)

Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play, p. 10 wrote:

At the start of a Pathfinder’s career, you are allowed to adjust your character before settling in for the long haul. Before you level up a character for the first time, you may change any aspect of it except its Pathfinder Society Number. Changes may only be made between adventures and before playing as a character above 1st level. Any exceptions will be noted in the Pathfinder Society FAQ. You are able to keep all treasure, Prestige Points, special boons, and XP that you have earned and apply them to the character once you retrain as long as the character meets the criteria above. You are only able to retrain into a legal race.

After 1st level, if you own a copy of Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Campaign, you may use the retraining rules that begin on page 188 to alter your character. Such changes must be made in the presence of a Pathfinder Society GM, the GM must initial each change, and each change must be noted on an official Pathfinder Society Chronicle sheet. If the GM wishes to audit your character before the changes are made, you must present the character to the GM. If time is a limiting factor, the GM may choose not to allow retraining during that session. When utilizing these retraining rules, you must expend wealth as outlined in the Retraining section of Ultimate Campaign, as well as 1 Prestige Point per day of retraining since time between scenarios is undefined.

2/5 5/5 **

EDIT: Heh, The Fox posted faster than I did. I concur with that perspective.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Ninja who's totally not The Fox wrote:
kinevon wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
The free rebuild can only be used to make a character that could have arisen organically via play. You'd need to use paid retraining to cover anything like swapping your first level feat to Power Attack if you're not a full BAB class.

Got a citation for that, Jeff?

It's right after the paragraph you quoted. :)

Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play, p. 10 wrote:

At the start of a Pathfinder’s career, you are allowed to adjust your character before settling in for the long haul. Before you level up a character for the first time, you may change any aspect of it except its Pathfinder Society Number. Changes may only be made between adventures and before playing as a character above 1st level. Any exceptions will be noted in the Pathfinder Society FAQ. You are able to keep all treasure, Prestige Points, special boons, and XP that you have earned and apply them to the character once you retrain as long as the character meets the criteria above. You are only able to retrain into a legal race.

After 1st level, if you own a copy of Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Campaign, you may use the retraining rules that begin on page 188 to alter your character. Such changes must be made in the presence of a Pathfinder Society GM, the GM must initial each change, and each change must be noted on an official Pathfinder Society Chronicle sheet. If the GM wishes to audit your character before the changes are made, you must present the character to the GM. If time is a limiting factor, the GM may choose not to allow retraining during that session. When utilizing these retraining rules, you must expend wealth as outlined in the Retraining section of Ultimate Campaign, as well as 1 Prestige Point per day of retraining since time between scenarios is undefined.

Please explain your reasoning.

You have a PC who just leveled to 2, he is still eligible for the first level free retrain. The only limitation there is retaining the PFS number and the partial consumables.

So, where is your limitation on what can be done in the rebuild before playing at 2nd (or higher) level coming from?

4/5

I think the reasoning is something like this:

After 1st level, you have to use the Ultimate Campaign retraining rules, including the associated PP and GP costs.

Therefore the free, unlimited rebuild only applies to a 1st-level character, so you can only use it to make a legal 1st-level character, subject to the associated limitations.

Essentially you can make any 1st-level character you want, and then level it to 2.

But you can't make any 2nd-level character you want.

Grand Lodge 4/5

redward wrote:

I think the reasoning is something like this:

After 1st level, you have to use the Ultimate Campaign retraining rules, including the associated PP and GP costs.

Therefore the free, unlimited rebuild only applies to a 1st-level character, so you can only use it to make a legal 1st-level character, subject to the associated limitations.

Essentially you can make any 1st-level character you want, and then level it to 2.

But you can't make any 2nd-level character you want.

And, for a GM, you have to widen that scope, anyhow. As my spoiler points out, I have a character that was still eligible for the free rebuild at 7th level.

What are the limitations on that rebuild?

Edit: And I still have my (3rd?) level PC with only GM credit for levels of Emerald Spire I am GMing. I suspect that he won't see play until he is 13th level. What rules would you apply to him?

4/5

kinevon wrote:
redward wrote:

I think the reasoning is something like this:

After 1st level, you have to use the Ultimate Campaign retraining rules, including the associated PP and GP costs.

Therefore the free, unlimited rebuild only applies to a 1st-level character, so you can only use it to make a legal 1st-level character, subject to the associated limitations.

Essentially you can make any 1st-level character you want, and then level it to 2.

But you can't make any 2nd-level character you want.

And, for a GM, you have to widen that scope, anyhow. As my spoiler points out, I have a character that was still eligible for the free rebuild at 7th level.

What are the limitations on that rebuild?

Edit: And I still have my (3rd?) level PC with only GM credit for levels of Emerald Spire I am GMing. I suspect that he won't see play until he is 13th level. What rules would you apply to him?

Can't speak for anyone else, and I think the rules are silent on the matter, but I would prefer that GM blobs make 'organically legal' characters and spend the PP/GP to retrain anything they wouldn't have been able to achieve through normal progression.

Silver Crusade 3/5

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Kinevon, the intention of the 1st-level rebuilding of your character is to allow new players to test drive their character before they lock in for the next 11 levels.

It is not to allow a GM to come in with 33 XP worth of GM credit to build a Human Fighter 12 with a bunch of feats that are high-level feats for free.

Your suggestion would allow the following selection of feats (they are grouped more or less by prerequisites; the number in parentheses is the earliest level the fighter would qualify for those feats if they played through every level).

Weapon Focus
> Weapon Specialization (4)
> > Greater Weapon Specialization (12)
> Greater Weapon Focus (8)
Power Attack
> Cleave
> > All-Consuming Swing (8)
> Dazing Assault (11)
Vital Strike (6)
> Staggering Blow (8)
> Devastating Strike (9)
> Improved Vital Strike (11)
Strike Back (11)
Improved Critical (8)

I don't think that is the intention behind the rebuilding, do you?

Sovereign Court 3/5 **** Venture-Agent, Ohio—Columbus

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And this is why we can't have nice things.

Grand Lodge 4/5

The Fox wrote:

Kinevon, the intention of the 1st-level rebuilding of your character is to allow new players to test drive their character before they lock in for the next 11 levels.

It is not to allow a GM to come in with 33 XP worth of GM credit to build a Human Fighter 12 with a bunch of feats that are high-level feats for free.

Your suggestion would allow the following selection of feats (they are grouped more or less by prerequisites; the number in parentheses is the earliest level the fighter would qualify for those feats if they played through every level).

Weapon Focus
> Weapon Specialization (4)
> > Greater Weapon Specialization (12)
> Greater Weapon Focus (8)
Power Attack
> Cleave
> > All-Consuming Swing (8)
> Dazing Assault (11)
Vital Strike (6)
> Staggering Blow (8)
> Devastating Strike (9)
> Improved Vital Strike (11)
Strike Back (11)
Improved Critical (8)

I don't think that is the intention behind the rebuilding, do you?

No idea. But how would you handle an on-the-fly rebuild, where your GM blob was setup as a Human Bard, say, but has never been played, but the group you wind up playing with is of a level where only your GM credit PC is in the right tier, but the group needs the PC to be something different, possibly totally different? From Human Bard to Wayang Paladin, for one example.

Silver Crusade 3/5

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kinevon wrote:
No idea. But how would you handle an on-the-fly rebuild, where your GM blob was setup as a Human Bard, say, but has never been played, but the group you wind up playing with is of a level where only your GM credit PC is in the right tier, but the group needs the PC to be something different, possibly totally different? From Human Bard to Wayang Paladin, for one example.

I would probably not do that. I would try to have my character ready to go beforehand. If that were not possible, I would build a character like I just did, writing down all of the feats I want him to have; then I would calculate how many of those needed to come from the retraining rules, and pay the prestige to do so.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Here is how I would do so with the example build I gave:

1. Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Cleave
2. Bonus Feat*
3. Feat
4. Weapon Specialization
5. Feat
6. Vital Strike
7. Feat
8. Greater Weapon Focus, Retrain * into Staggering Blow (Fighters can retrain a bonus feat for free at level 4, 8, and 12).
9. Devastating Strike
10. Bonus Feat**
11. Improved Vital Strike
12. Greater Weapon Specialization, Retrain ** into Strike Back.

Retrain the other 3 feats into the last three feats I want: All-Consuming Swing, Dazing Assault, and Improved Critical. That would cost me 15 Prestige. I can retrain into All-Consuming Swing and Improved Critical as early as level 8, so 400 gp for each of those. Dazing Assault needs to wait until level 11, so 550 gp for that one.

Total Prestige spent = 15
Total Gold spent = 1350 gp

1/5

redward wrote:

I think the reasoning is something like this:

After 1st level, you have to use the Ultimate Campaign retraining rules, including the associated PP and GP costs.

Therefore the free, unlimited rebuild only applies to a 1st-level character, so you can only use it to make a legal 1st-level character, subject to the associated limitations.

Essentially you can make any 1st-level character you want, and then level it to 2.

But you can't make any 2nd-level character you want.

I think this is the right of it. Do what you want before leveling the character to 2nd level. After that, it is a level-by-level progression where everything has to be taken legally with the correct prerequisites in place at lower level.

Shadow Lodge

redward wrote:

I think the reasoning is something like this:

After 1st level, you have to use the Ultimate Campaign retraining rules, including the associated PP and GP costs.

Therefore the free, unlimited rebuild only applies to a 1st-level character, so you can only use it to make a legal 1st-level character, subject to the associated limitations.

Essentially you can make any 1st-level character you want, and then level it to 2.

But you can't make any 2nd-level character you want.

This is the best explanation I've see, to be honest. The free first level rebuild was never intended to open up new character build options (i.e., builds you couldn't do without rebuilding).

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

kinevon wrote:

I have a character that was still eligible for the free rebuild at 7th level.

What are the limitations on that rebuild?

Are you playing Devil's Advocate here?

Whenever you build a character in Pathfinder, whether it's for a home game, a custom GM monster, an NPC villain, an Animal Companion, what-have-you, you build it from the ground up.

If you're arguing that your 7th level Fighter can begin play with 7 feats that each require a BAB of +7, you're going to need rules that state you can, not rules that state you can't.

4/5 *

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Actually, once the character is played, and then GM credits are applied to it, they take effect immediately - thus you gain XP immediately, thus you must level them immediately. Keeping a PC at level 1 but with 6 levels of GM credit in limbo is not just lazy, but it's also against the rules.

The *only* PCs that don't have to be "built" until they are played, are ones made *completely* with GM credit.

So, in kinevon's example of 3XP + 15 GM credit XP, the answer is simple: he can rebuild his level 1 PC per the free rebuild rules, and then apply each GM credit chronicle, in order, making choices as he levels. All choices must be legal at the time. He can then sue the retaining rules (assuming he owns Ultimate Campaign, of course) and pay the costs to change whatever he wants. Plus, his GM should scold him for not keeping his paperwork up to date.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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Well, to be honest, that's not an uncommon occurrence.

Quite a few of my credit babies were played 1-3 times, before level 2, so I could get a feel for them, and then had GM credit piled on them to survive the next few levels.

It's "effectively" still eligible for a complete rebuild, since you haven't put pen to paper, yet, and since it hasn't been played above level 1.

It's not laziness. It's a valid way to apply credit. No stretch of the rules implied.

1/5

kinevon wrote:
No idea. But how would you handle an on-the-fly rebuild, where your GM blob was setup as a Human Bard, say, but has never been played, but the group you wind up playing with is of a level where only your GM credit PC is in the right tier, but the group needs the PC to be something different, possibly totally different? From Human Bard to Wayang Paladin, for one example.

If the character has never been played then you level it up from first to whatever level by hand in the usual manner applying each chronicle in order exactly as if you had played them. If you had ever played the character after first level then it is ultimate campaign retraining time. The free retraining rule clearly does not apply to characters with more than 3 xp and if I audited your character and found out that you had done such a rebuild you would not play that character at my table.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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Jessex wrote:
The free retraining rule clearly does not apply to characters (played) with more than 3 xp and if I audited your character and found out that you had done such a rebuild you would not play that character at my table.

Just wanted to emphasize the part I added.

For example, say I played three games at level 1, and then applied 6 levels of GM credit.

On Monday I think to myself, "Hey! It'd be cool to make a Summoner!", and so I print out a character sheet and fill it with Summoner stuff.

Then, on Tuesday, the Summoner gets nerfed. "Oh, well, it'd be cool to make a mounted character!" I shred the old character sheet and fill out a new one.

Then, on Wednesday, you find out by reading the forums that mounted builds get no love. "Ok, fine, I'll make one of those new Unchained Rogues." And you fill out another brand new character sheet.

All of these options are 100% legal, with no fiddling of the rules.

But, if I play that Rogue on Thursday, I'm locked in. If I don't play it, I can rethink my build umpteen times before settling.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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What Kinevon is proposing is a different issue entirely, and is not legal under any rule set.

1/5

Nefreet wrote:
Jessex wrote:
The free retraining rule clearly does not apply to characters (played) with more than 3 xp and if I audited your character and found out that you had done such a rebuild you would not play that character at my table.

Just wanted to emphasize the part I added.

For example, say I played three games at level 1, and then applied 6 levels of GM credit.

On Monday I think to myself, "Hey! It'd be cool to make a Summoner!", and so I print out a character sheet and fill it with Summoner stuff.

Then, on Tuesday, the Summoner gets nerfed. "Oh, well, it'd be cool to make a mounted character!" I shred the old character sheet and fill out a new one.

Then, on Wednesday, you find out by reading the forums that mounted builds get no love. "Ok, fine, I'll make one of those new Unchained Rogues." And you fill out another brand new character sheet.

All of these options are 100% legal, with no fiddling of the rules.

But, if I play that Rogue on Thursday, I'm locked in. If I don't play it, I can rethink my build umpteen times before settling.

Sure but you can't retrain the character freely while leveling it up in the build process after level 1. Do what you want prior to level 2 but the person I replied to was arguing that the free rebuild allowed him to do some clearly illegal things with a GM blob.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Ok. The way I read your post seemed like you were saying that once you'd played your third game, you were locked in.

So, you'd agree with the "(played)" part that I added to your statement?

1/5

Nefreet wrote:

Ok. The way I read your post seemed like you were saying that once you'd played your third game, you were locked in.

So, you'd agree with the "(played)" part that I added to your statement?

Yes and no.

Technically if you've played the character at all then you have to apply every chronicle as it is earned even if is a GM chronicle. That means you can't leave such a character an undefined blob.

A character that is nothing but GM credit is a different matter. But you still have to level it up in the normal manner without free retraining after first level when you do finally apply the chronicles.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Jessex wrote:
Technically if you've played the character at all then you have to apply every chronicle as it is earned even if is a GM chronicle. That means you can't leave such a character an undefined blob.

I'm not understanding this stance. Can you elaborate?

Do you see a specific problem with my Monday-Thursday example above?

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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Nefreet, I think your description is technically wrong.

So, you play a fighter through Shades of Ice. It has 3 XP and is ready for 2nd level. When you play that third game, you apply the Chronicle and level the character up.

Then, in June, you GM several levels of Thornkeep, and apply 9 XP to the character. At the time you apply the new Chronicles, I believe you implement the experience points. If he stays a fighter, or gets a free rebuild to slayer, that has to happen before you apply the 9 new XP. Let's say you decide to rebuild him as a sorcerer, then apply the new XP. He's now a 5th-level sorcerer.

In July, you play a 7th-level pre-gen and apply that experience to this character. There's table variation here: some GMs require you to announce which character is receiving the experience before the game starts, and if the NPC dies, then that kills off the PC as well. You don't get to transfer those GM-credit experience points to a different character.

In August, a new book comes out and has cool options for monks and sorcerers. You cannot freely retrain to monk, nor can you retroactively say that the sorcerer you built in June has chosen options that weren't available in June.

As I understand the rules.

Shadow Lodge *

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Nefreet wrote:
Jessex wrote:
Technically if you've played the character at all then you have to apply every chronicle as it is earned even if is a GM chronicle. That means you can't leave such a character an undefined blob.

I'm not understanding this stance. Can you elaborate?

Do you see a specific problem with my Monday-Thursday example above?

The only real problem with it would be if you filled out the rollforward parts of your Chronicle sheets on Monday -- most likely in concert with buying your equipment and putting those ITS purchases in the Gold Spent section. Or spending Prestige Points.

If you'd just filled out your character sheets as a thought exercise (with the official paperwork part to happen later) there's no problem at all.

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Chris Mortika wrote:
In July, you play a 7th-level pre-gen and apply that experience to this character. There's table variation here: some GMs require you to announce which character is receiving the experience before the game starts, and if the NPC dies, then that kills off the PC as well. You don't get to transfer those GM-credit experience points to a different character.

Unfortunately for them, a dead pregen is explicitly allowed to be assigned to a new number after the fact.

Silver Crusade 2/5

Jeff Merola wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
In July, you play a 7th-level pre-gen and apply that experience to this character. There's table variation here: some GMs require you to announce which character is receiving the experience before the game starts, and if the NPC dies, then that kills off the PC as well. You don't get to transfer those GM-credit experience points to a different character.
Unfortunately for them, a dead pregen is explicitly allowed to be assigned to a new number after the fact.
FAQ wrote:

If my PC or pregenerated character dies permanently, what happens?

Player characters and pregenerated characters who do not return to the realm of the living receive 0 XP, 0 PP, 0 gold, and no items or boons. This is marked on their Chronicle sheet along with a note that the character is permanently dead. If a player was planning to hold the Chronicle from a pregenerated character and apply it to a lower level PC once the PC reached the level of the pregenerated character, they must either apply the Chronicle sheet immediately and report the PC as dead or assign the Chronicle sheet to a new level 1 PC (ie a new PC number) and report that character as dead.

link

Shadow Lodge 4/5 *** Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant

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Chris Mortika wrote:

Nefreet, I think your description is technically wrong.

So, you play a fighter through Shades of Ice. It has 3 XP and is ready for 2nd level. When you play that third game, you apply the Chronicle and level the character up.

Then, in June, you GM several levels of Thornkeep, and apply 9 XP to the character. At the time you apply the new Chronicles, I believe you implement the experience points. If he stays a fighter, or gets a free rebuild to slayer, that has to happen before you apply the 9 new XP. Let's say you decide to rebuild him as a sorcerer, then apply the new XP. He's now a 5th-level sorcerer.

In July, you play a 7th-level pre-gen and apply that experience to this character. There's table variation here: some GMs require you to announce which character is receiving the experience before the game starts, and if the NPC dies, then that kills off the PC as well. You don't get to transfer those GM-credit experience points to a different character.

In August, a new book comes out and has cool options for monks and sorcerers. You cannot freely retrain to monk, nor can you retroactively say that the sorcerer you built in June has chosen options that weren't available in June.

As I understand the rules.

Chris, in your example, until you've actually PLAYED him as a sorcerer he is not a sorcerer. You can change anything about it until the character is actually played after 3xp.

GtPFSOP wrote:
When you choose to take a Chronicle sheet for GM credit, you must decide which of your characters receives the Chronicle sheet when you fill out the tracking sheet for that table. You must apply Chronicle sheets in the order they are received. The only exception is when you hold a higher tier Chronicle for a lower-tier character. In either case, you do not need to build the character until you actually play it.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

pH unbalanced wrote:

The only real problem with it would be if you filled out the rollforward parts of your Chronicle sheets on Monday -- most likely in concert with buying your equipment and putting those ITS purchases in the Gold Spent section. Or spending Prestige Points.

If you'd just filled out your character sheets as a thought exercise (with the official paperwork part to happen later) there's no problem at all.

Even completely filling out an ITS, and covering your last GM chronicle with ink, does not lock you in to anything.

What matters is what's in place when you sit down to actually play it.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Eric, the way I'm reading that, you have already played the PC when you apply the Chronicle sheets, so you do have to build him.

I understand that to mean that a pile of assigned Chronicle sheets that has never been played doesn't resolve into a character until it first hits the table.

Shadow Lodge *

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Nefreet wrote:
pH unbalanced wrote:

The only real problem with it would be if you filled out the rollforward parts of your Chronicle sheets on Monday -- most likely in concert with buying your equipment and putting those ITS purchases in the Gold Spent section. Or spending Prestige Points.

If you'd just filled out your character sheets as a thought exercise (with the official paperwork part to happen later) there's no problem at all.

Even completely filling out an ITS, and covering your last GM chronicle with ink, does not lock you in to anything.

What matters is what's in place when you sit down to actually play it.

Y-you'd write on the Chronicles *in ink* and then scratch them out?!

<shudder>

So you'd write a memo to the file explaining exactly what changes you made and why that was ok, and then have someone sign off on that...right?

(Yes, I'm a CPA. Won't someone please think of the poor auditors.)

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Nefreet wrote:
What Kinevon is proposing is a different issue entirely, and is not legal under any rule set.

Could you explain what I am proposing, other than building my GM credit blob at the appropriate level, possibly with no time to spend working it up level-by level at the table, and what is illegal?

And there are two threads going, and the answers in each of them seem to be contradictory:

[When is a GM credited character considered "newly created"?

Magabeus wrote:
Guide to PFSoP page 38, Game Master Rewards on applying credit wrote:
A GM may apply credit for running a scenario, module, or Adventure Path in any of the same ways a player can, and must follow the same rules as a player when applying credit to a character. When you choose to take a Chronicle sheet for GM credit, you must decide which of your characters receives the Chronicle sheet when you fill out the tracking sheet for that table. You must apply Chronicle sheets in the order they are received. The only exception is when you hold a highertier Chronicle for a lower-tier character. In either case, you do not need to build the character until you actually play it.
To me this implies that you are able to apply the racial boon to any character with only GM credit, since the character gets build just before actually being played, which seems to fit the "newly-created" requirement

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Pencil people, pencil.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 *** Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant

So combined with this you think you're stuck with it even if you haven't played it after 1st lvl? Even though it says you may change any aspect of a character before playing as a character above 1st level?

GtPFSOP wrote:

At the start of a Pathfinder’s career, you are allowed to

adjust your character before settling in for the long haul.
Before you level up a character for the first time, you
may change any aspect of it except its Pathfinder Society
Number. Changes may only be made between adventures
and before playing as a character above 1st level.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Eric, if you play a character for a session or two in May, and then apply several GM Chronicles in June, they you need to have locked in any changes before you level up the character for the first time.

So, if a new book were to come out in August, you couldn't say that you had chosen options from that book back when it was 1st level, before you leveled up the character in June.

That's the way i understand the rules, in any case. I could be wrong.

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The character isn't leveled up until he's played, so he doesn't need to have chosen an option at first level, so he can pick a new option from a book. There's no relative time that the character is leveled before then. Making someone check 6 months of when additional resources to figure out when you could take which options for a DM credit baby is nuts if not impossible without cross checking archives of additional resources.

The character is leveled up when the character is leveled up though, the levels come in order 1 2 3 , so you can't pick all the bab +6 feats without retraining.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 *** Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant

You're focusing on Before you level up, but ignoring the last line, Changes may only be made... before playing as a character above 1st level.

Silver Crusade 3/5

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TL;DR:

Michael Brock wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
So as long as each chronicle is applied to a unique character number immediately, we're set? Even if said character is an amorphous, stat-less blob up until he arrives at a table?
Yes

-----------------

Here is a recap of a conversation that happened back in 2012 in this thread.

For context, the thread was a direct discussion regarding particular actions that are and are not allowed in the campaign. One of the topics is how GM credits work.

Here are quotes from relevant posts I have bolded some particularly relevant passages, and have snipped some irrelevant text. Feel free to go back and read the original thread if you want.

LazarX wrote:
Where exactly is this post aimed at? Are we talking about players who cheat at dice, magic items, or class mechanics? Or are we scolding the GM's who are helping out a newbie player who made a wrong faction choice and did not realize it until their second outing?

<snip>

--Failing to apply a GM Chronicle sheet and saving them up to a later date when multiple Chronicles are all applied at the same time

<snip>

Jiggy wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
--Failing to apply a GM Chronicle sheet and saving them up to a later date when multiple Chronicles are all applied at the same time

If you wouldn't mind, I'd like a clarification on this to make sure I'm not accidentally cheating.

I currently have a character to whom I've applied 5 GM chronicles but have never played. I picked a faction the first time I applied a chronicle to him, and have not (and will not) change it. Is it okay if I don't finalize my decisions on his build (stats, feats, etc) until I'm ready to actually play him? Note that each chronicle has been applied in order acquired, and always in a way that would have been legal had I played the character (i.e., any/all First Steps chronicles are within his first 3, all others were applied at subtier 1-2, etc).

I figure you must be either talking about that, or just meaning not even applying the chronicle until later on.

...Did that all make sense?

A clarification is someone who GMs 9 different scenarios, saves all 9 scenarios until his character is 4th level, and then applies all 9 so he can immediately advance from 4th to 7th level, 14 months after he GMed the first scenario.
Jiggy wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
I'm getting ready to look into allowing boons on Chronicle sheets to be received as part of GM credit. For this to happen, a Chronicle sheet would need to be applied immediately.
So as long as each chronicle is applied to a unique character number immediately, we're set? Even if said character is an amorphous, stat-less blob up until he arrives at a table?
Yes
Chris Mortika wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
A clarification is someone who GMs 9 different scenarios, saves all 9 scenarios until his character is 4th level, and then applies all 9 so he can immediately advance from 4th to 7th level, 14 months after he GMed the first scenario.

So far as I understand the rules, Mike, elapsed time isn't an issue at all, only order of events. If I have a 4th level PC and assign appropriately-tiered GM credit to that character for nine scenarios, then that's a 7th-level PC.

Likewise, if I GM "From Shore to Sea"< "Realm of the Fellknight Queen" and "Cult of the Ebon Destroyers" and apply all that GM credit to my currently 4th-level fighter, he'll jump from 4th to 8th level as soon as he earns 12 XP.

Your objection isn't to PCs leaping levels, but rather to GM's who leave their GM credit "unattached" until necessary. It's just as wrong for a fellow to say "I don't have a PC for this Tier 7-11 scenario, but I will, as soon as I take this GM credit and apply it to my 6th-level Ranger." Yes?

<snip>

That is correct. <snip>

Has something changed since then?

This all makes me wish Historian Jiggy were coming around more often. :(

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

The Fox, that was helpful.

What has changed, I suppose, is the consensus of GMs (and a polite talking-to by a Venture Officer). When I say "this is what I believe the rule to be," I am mainly stating "this is how I see the rule being applied."

It was explained to me that a character is leveled up when the GM credit is assigned, not when the character is played. (The situation wasn't quite the same: I was applying a big pile of GM credit that I'd assigned to an existing character, in order to multi-class into one of the new ACG classes, rather than retrain 1st-level XP.)

I am happy to see that "the consensus of GMs" was only local.

1/5

kinevon wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
What Kinevon is proposing is a different issue entirely, and is not legal under any rule set.

Could you explain what I am proposing, other than building my GM credit blob at the appropriate level, possibly with no time to spend working it up level-by level at the table, and what is illegal?

That is the illegal part. You cannot do that and if you bring that character to my table it will not play if I know about it.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

kinevon wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
What Kinevon is proposing is a different issue entirely, and is not legal under any rule set.
Could you explain what I am proposing, other than building my GM credit blob at the appropriate level, possibly with no time to spend working it up level-by level at the table, and what is illegal?

I addressed your exact question in the comment directly before the one you chose to quote.

Just so I'm not misunderstanding you, I'll use a hypothetical. Say you use 6 level's worth of GM credit to make a 6th level Human Fighter. This character has a BAB of +6, and has 8 feats.

This character finally begins play with Lunge, Vital Strike, Hammer the Gap, and Punch Through, all of which require a BAB of +6. This character has not utilized the retraining rules from Ultimate Campaign.

In your opinion is this character legal?

Scarab Sages 4/5

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Regardless of when you apply the chronicles or when you actually build a character with GM credit, you still have to assign one level at a time and build a character that is legal at each level. There's no need for a PFS rule, because that's how Pathfinder works. A character must be legal at each level. Otherwise every 3/4 BAB martial character could have Power Attack as their 1st level feat once they hit 2nd level (without expending any resources).

Retraining is the exception to that, not Rebuilding. They are different things. One requires time, money, and in the case of PFS prestige to accomplish. The other is a GM saying it's ok to rework your character. Retraining allows you to take a feat you didn't previously qualify for, because at the time of retraining your character is already higher level, and they are spending time and resources at that level in order to learn the new feat. That is not the case with rebuilding.

Silver Crusade 3/5

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Chris Mortika wrote:
(The situation wasn't quite the same: I was applying a big pile of GM credit that I'd assigned to an existing character, in order to multi-class into one of the new ACG classes, rather than retrain 1st-level XP.)

AFAIK, that is perfectly ok. That is exactly the type of thing that I do with my GM credit, so if it is not ok, I'd really like to know.

There are several similar things I tend to do with GM credit:
1. Stack up XP onto an unbuilt, unplayed character until I come up with a character concept that I want to play.
2. Stack up XP onto an unplayed character when the concept I have doesn't really come online until a higher level.
3. Stack up XP onto a played character who has a "dead level" (not much in the way of new abilities) that I want to skip.
4. Stack up XP (and more importantly, prestige) onto a played character who isn't as much fun as I thought he would be, so that I can retrain the levels/feats/etc. that didn't work out like I hoped.

In these cases, I apply the chronicle immediately, but I don't make any decisions about the character until I go back and get it ready to play—usually the night before a game that I want to play him in.

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Use xp to get through the level 6 doldrums...

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