The polymorph entry in the magic chapter is a pain to read, but:
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.
For anyone who thinks that Alter Self shouldn't allow you to mimic specific creatures by RAI, let me ask you a question. Do you think that a Greater Hat of Disguise is intended to not have the same functionality as its lesser cousin, the Hat of Disguise?
The spell has you assume the form of a type of humanoid creature. In other words, taking a sample of Jack Sparrow turns you into a human of similar hereditary. Every ability that uses alter self works this way unless it specifically says it allows you to assume the form of specific person. The material component just points out you're assuming a form matching the creature type of the sample. All polymorph spells work this way. If alter self said it lets you become a specific person, it would make this much more clear.
For anyone who thinks that Alter Self shouldn't allow you to mimic specific creatures by RAI, let me ask you a question. Do you think that a Greater Hat of Disguise is intended to not have the same functionality as its lesser cousin, the Hat of Disguise?
I think it is plainly clear that they are not intended to have the same functionality. If they were there same, their would be only one of them not two.
The hat of disguise changes you exactly like disguise self does. The greater hat of disguise like alter self. These spells are very different, even being from different schools, so one would expect the items to function quite differently.
I will note as an aside though, that a magic item can behave very differently then the spell it is based on. In these two cases they don't, since the are essentially spells in a can, but it would be possible to have a magic item based on alter self that was designed to mimic specific people.
Woah, woah, woah. Please calm down and let's stop this argument. This is a simple issue of definition. We don't need rules to solve this puzzle.
form - noun
1. the visible shape or configuration of something.
You take on the FORM of something, its general shape and configuration. That is entirely separate from having an identical appearance. Two pairs of running shoes can have the same form but look different.
Form is a more general term than appearance. Saying two things have the same form means they fit into the same category in how they are shaped, constructed, and operate.
Woah, woah, woah. Please calm down and let's stop this argument. This is a simple issue of definition. We don't need rules to solve this puzzle.
form - noun
1. the visible shape or configuration of something.You take on the FORM of something, its general shape and configuration. That is entirely separate from having an identical appearance. Two pairs of running shoes can have the same form but look different.
Form is a more general term than appearance. Saying two things have the same form means they fit into the same category in how they are shaped, constructed, and operate.
Except you yourself are injecting the word "general". Someone else could just as easily inject the word "identical".
For anyone who thinks that Alter Self shouldn't allow you to mimic specific creatures by RAI, let me ask you a question. Do you think that a Greater Hat of Disguise is intended to not have the same functionality as its lesser cousin, the Hat of Disguise?
I would NEVER use the hat of disguise items as evidence for rules. They're really poorly written and don't work as the designer intended. Greater hat of disguise comes from a module, not a rule book, and raises many valid mechanical questions. For example, it references alter self, but the item is an illusion effect. Finally, since greater hat of disguise is an illusion effect, it has no bearing on this rules question at all.
"... and a million people playing 'Way of the Wicked' suddenly cried out in anguish..."
This is an excerpt from the game: "Deceptions will be most effective if the PCs use their iron circlets to appear as a knight (perhaps Sir {spoiler}...)"
Also: "These servants are simple townsfolk (human commoner 1 – see xxxxx for statistics) and easily infiltrated and replaced using the PC’s iron circlets."
(effectively this is a Hat of Disguise with certain "quirks"; imagine what a Greater version would do...)
I've always thought it's the Disguise skill bonus you use afterwards to make yourself look as close to the person you are trying to imitate on Disguise self, but Alter Self has no such wording on disguise checks?
Thats as little "proof" as everyone else as once again, i can define "visible shape" to be every visible aspect and feature - Yes, having a dimple, crowsfeet and a lazy eye is also a part of the "shape". You can argue that i chose to do that to be on the other side of things and that would be correct, but you cannot claim "for sure" thats how its intended to be read and understood. And something as small as DNA is a configuration, according to science, so if i can configure my DNA, i sure can get myself to look exactly as i would want (But we are getting off the fantasy-world base here)
This will be my last response, because its silly to argue with someone who refuses to use a word correctly. A form is a general shape. This is why some molds are referred to as forms. For example, you use a form to set the shape of concrete on a building. This has nothing to do with what color or decorations, that create its appearance.
You are attempting to twist the English language to assume the answer you want to be true, rather than the meaning that is correct.
A form is a general shape. This is why some molds are referred to as forms.
That's a horrible example for your argument. You are aware that we make molds of real people all of the time, specifically to make something that looks like a part of that specific person, usually the face.
I fail to see how Alter Self provides you with any additional attacks, it mere grants a few senses and either +2 to str or dex. To me, thats a pretty s%~@ty 2nd lvl spell, considering you can get a +4 str from Bull's Strength for 10 times the duration at the same spell level.
Look up the Polymorph under the Transmutation school under Magic in either the Core Rulebood or the PRD. You also gain the base land speed and natural attacks of the creature whose form you are taking, along with other fringe benefits (such as the ability to breathe water if you have a swim speed).
A form is a general shape. This is why some molds are referred to as forms.That's a horrible example for your argument. You are aware that we make molds of real people all of the time, specifically to make something that looks like a part of that specific person, usually the face.
I agree, but when you take it out of the mold it doesn't look like the original person. Skilled painters and artists spend many hours of very detailed labor to make them look alike. The mold was the base, its the details, paint and finishing that add the likeness and appearance.
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Then why is there this line, in the polymorph rules: "Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals" - If no spells specify that you can? Remember, this rule is from the PHB, so it SHOULD apply to AT LEAST one spell in the book and i come up with none.
Not necessarily - it could be present in case a future spell or effect (such as Realistic Likeness) allowed you to impersonate an individual. The PHB doesn't always demonstrate such foresight, but it's certainly allowed to.
EDIT: I don't believe the intent is to use alter self to impersonate individuals, but I think it would be reasonable to allow a character to do so given some extra effort (probably by personally obtaining a piece of the specific individual to be impersonated, or possibly with a feat - see again Realistic Likeness).
I fail to see how Alter Self provides you with any additional attacks, it mere grants a few senses and either +2 to str or dex. To me, thats a pretty s%!+ty 2nd lvl spell, considering you can get a +4 str from Bull's Strength for 10 times the duration at the same spell level.
You can take the form of a Boggard, get a +2 strength plus darkvision and a swim speed.
You can take the form of a Troglodyte, get a +2 strength plus two claws and a bite attack and darkvision.
These work well for a dragon disciple or an Orc scarred witch. Otherwise, you're more likely to change into a svirfneblin to get the small size (+2 dex and +1 size bonus to AC plus the darkvision) unless you really want the swim speed or scent.
Also, note that this stacks with bull's strength or cat's grace. Honestly, Alter Self is a spell I find to be vastly more useful because you have so many options. It's one of my favorite 2nd level spells. Maybe because I fell in love with it playing a cleric who had an item that let him use it and saw I could use it for my orcish scarred witch and my dex-based magus.
I have noticed that Disguise Self and Veil will tell you in the spell description that you get +10 to Disguise checks to duplicate the appearance of a specific individual...
... but you have to look it up for Alter self in the Disguise (Cha) skill description (under Modifiers)...
So it does work like Disguise Self, but without the innocently brushing past the "human" and finding it has scales, or wings, or is an Orc in a Powdered Wig etc...
Magic Alteration Magic that alters your form, such as alter self, disguise self, polymorph, or shapechange, grants you a +10 bonus on Disguise checks (see the individual spell descriptions). You must succeed on a Disguise check with a +10 bonus to duplicate the appearance of a specific individual using the veil spell
(I added Veil here, as the caster should have to check for each recipient, otherwise you get either X random illusions, or X clone illusions maybe?)
Also with regard to the above "Form" debate with what I surmised for Veil above, is it the same form every time? Or is it like pressing randomize on the "form generator" if it doesn't specify "you take the same face every time".
(or a set of limited templates you can add Disguise spell or skill to tweak features later - think Skyrim/ Mass Effect etc.)
Also, does it specify you take the same sex at any point...? Plus what if you randomly generate "this is a purple bugbear, not a blue bugbear"
(I guess that's what having a part of the right *Blue Bugbear Female Nostril Hair* Spell Component is all about...?)
Actually, re Sorcerers, just because you can Eschew, doesn't mean you have to if you deem it necessary for a spell like this? (plus, maybe body parts are >1g as well, which means you still need a component, i.e. Syrinx feathers etc.)
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In another (slightly off topic) thought to do with SLAs/Powers/Monster SQs:
I'm still trying to get my head around the Rakshasa SQ vs. the Rakshasa Bloodline Power for Alter Self:
SQ change shape (any humanoid, alter self)
The Monster Change shape says +2 stat doesn't apply but some of its own PQs stay ... (have to assume the spells/darkvision at this point)?
... but how does it apply in the Bloodline? (is that just the basic Alter Self +2 but if you are Tiefling and A.S. to Human, do you still lose Darkvision)
Does it mean a Rakshasa can't change shape into another Rakshasa (for tricksy shenanigans)?
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Also with regard to the above "Form" debate with what I surmised for Veil above, is it the same form every time? Or is it like pressing randomize on the "form generator" if it doesn't specify "you take the same face every time".(or a set of limited templates you can add Disguise spell or skill to tweak features later - think Skyrim/ Mass Effect etc.)
Also, does it specify you take the same sex at any point...? Plus what if you randomly generate "this is a purple bugbear, not a blue bugbear"
(I guess that's what having a part of the right *Blue Bugbear Female Nostril Hair* Spell Component is all about...?)
The general Polymorph rules state that you can control the "fine details" of a form, just not precisely enough to impersonate a specific individual. So you can choose to become a blue female bugbear (assuming blue bugbears exist) with one casting, and a purple male bugbear in another casting.
The Monster Change shape says +2 stat doesn't apply but some of its own PQs stay ... (have to assume the spells/darkvision at this point)?
They keep what's described in the polymorph section - which includes spells but not darkvision or natural weapons. (DR and SR are a bit of a grey area, though it should definitely keep Detect Thoughts.)
... but how does it apply in the Bloodline? (is that just the basic Alter Self +2 but if you are Tiefling and A.S. to Human, do you still lose Darkvision)
The bloodline doesn't refer to the change shape monster quality rules, so it works exactly like alter self, including the +2 Str or Dex.
Does it mean a Rakshasa can't change shape into another Rakshasa (for tricksy shenanigans)?
Correct, a Rakshasa can only use Change Shape to turn into humanoids, though they can use the disguise skill normally if they want to impersonate another Rakshasa.
Can someone please advise me:
how do you tell that someone is under the effects of an alter self spell, specifically the Change Shape ability of a rakshasha?
Clearly you can make a roll to penetrate disguise (if the spell is adding +10 to disguise it follows that it can be penetrated), but magically speaking does detect magic actually work for this?
(Sorry for the thread necro but it was bugging me)
Using Googles definitions can be a bit off, I tend to go with:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/form
a : the shape and structure of something as distinguished from its material
b : a body (as of a person) especially in its external appearance or as distinguished from the face : figure
c : archaic : beauty
since A doesn't work due to all humanoids i can think of being made of "flesh like materials" its would be pointless.
c doesn't work because there is no CHA bonus...
that leaves us with B. Doesn't sound like very "Generic" to me.
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For anyone who thinks that Alter Self shouldn't allow you to mimic specific creatures by RAI, let me ask you a question. Do you think that a Greater Hat of Disguise is intended to not have the same functionality as its lesser cousin, the Hat of Disguise?
I see no discrepancy there. Neither actually says you can mimic a specific person. Plus, in cases where a specific form IS allowed, it's spelled out... like the kitsune's alter self spell-like ability or even more telling, the Realistic Likeness feat which allows them to outright mimic specific people. If Alter Self already worked like that, the feat could just as easily say that they no longer have one specific form.