dunklezhan's page

That said, I know being a ghost dragon and all, 4 years probably seems like the blink of an eye to you, but most of us mortals tend to forget about threads after, like, a month.

Well, I needed to let the various arguments sink in, mull them over in my own good time, and then, once everyone had assumed they had all the answers sorted, poke the ant hive a little with a well timed observation to see if all the small things would scurry around in that entertaining way they have.

What? Why are you looking at me like that? You'll think I'm entertaining when I have my own talk show, muttermuttersillymammalsmuttergrumble

I've searched the whole thread and no one has mentioned it but... doesnt' Magic Aura only work on objects? Non Detection specifically says creatures and objects, Magic Aura mentioned only objects.

Just saying. Might be quite hard to use a days/level Magic Aura to hide the fact YOU are under the effects of a spell (e.g. alter self), you will presumably have to use the much shorter L3 spell Non Detection.

Can someone please advise me:

how do you tell that someone is under the effects of an alter self spell, specifically the Change Shape ability of a rakshasha?

Clearly you can make a roll to penetrate disguise (if the spell is adding +10 to disguise it follows that it can be penetrated), but magically speaking does detect magic actually work for this?

That's the approach I took too, and it took similar time!

Good catch on the 11.5HD per level, I did indeed read that table very wrongly indeed, particularly since I knew it was a D10 hit die creature so I have no idea why I'd think 11.5 per HD was reasonable. But I did say I'd let the player roll their D10s, so it's a moot point really.

Cost confusion:

Both the UM version and the alternate version say under construction costs:

You've said 11CP, I only factored in the 8 over and above the freebies that all 'Large' animated objects come with. Are you saying that the initial cost is supposed to include the ones that a relevant sized construct gets automatically?

For ref, I used the alternative rules costs because, whilst I wanted the DC to have a minimum level on it, I thought cost being so directly based on HD was reasonably sensible: animated objects are dumb, and stay dumb (not one of the 'animated objects' on the example list on the PFSRD has an Int score) so I was happy to use the lower cost figure from the alternate rules. If we do include the three freebies then this gets me to your 17K figure.

Hit Dice confusion:

Under the relevant construct modification to add hit dice it says:
"Determine the effects of a Hit Dice modification using the rules for adding creature Hit Dice on pages 290–291 of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary."

I used this for ref: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-advancement

Adding hit die has knock on effects to the other steps (one of which is look at the table and factor in all those AC, attack and damage bonuses). Was this not the correct set of rules to be using? Having to use online rules for that so was guessing a bit - a Bestiary is the only one of the core books that I don't own so I tend to use the PFSRD for enemies & monster rules until I get around to buying one.

Damage confusion:

I did wonder whether I was adding too much in the way of str mod. I read that primary natural attacks get full bab and Str on damage rolls, which I still make as +11 (+5 Str, +6 BAB due to Bab shown on table for monster HD advancement) damage, not the +6s you are showing.

Note that a real megaraptor's foreclaws are 'other'. The constructs however are a "Slam", and are slams not listed as primary attacks?

Note - I thought calling them slams was pretty cheesy of me personally, so I'm happy to reclassify to "secondary".

Thanks for the skills & feats point. Quite right.

/sigh.

We need to make a step by step animated objects guide, with all this stuff in one place. The written stuff is clearly too convoluted for me to follow if I got so much wrong. Or if you got so much wrong. ONE of us is wrong about some or all of the differences between our versions!

Or rather than wonderful but half finished construct guide could do with a section adding that actually walks you through the construction process.

Or we need rules on "mimicking" natural creatures as constructs, my player can't be the first to think of it.

OK, so playing with this a bit, to work out exactly what my player could potentially unleash with just a little bit of effort/resources.

I make it that he can make:

Neutral Large construct (stone megaraptor)
CR11 [CR5 plus additional 4 based on CP spend, +2 from HD increase]

Init -1
Senses darkvision 60, low-light vision; Perception -5

STATISTICS
Str 22, Dex 8, Con -, Int -, Wis 1, Cha 1
BaB +6
CMB +13 CMD +22

DEFENSE
AC 16, touch 8, flat-footed 13 (-1 Dex, +8 natural, -1 size)
Hardness 8 (stone)
hp ~73 (5d10+30 size)
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +0, Will -4
Defensive Abilities: Immune Construct Traits

OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee (all primary attacks according to the table):
Bite: +11 (2d6 +13 x3) piercing
Foreclaws: slam +11 (1d8 +13)
2x Talons: +11 (1d8 +13 x3) slashing
Tail: slam +11 (1d8+13) +5ft reach – not actually a 'tail slap'. Its a slam attack, the one it started with.

We got to those stats by adding:

3 Free Construction Points:
- Stone (hardness 8)
- extra natural attack (bite)
- Improved Attack (melee attacks 1 size larger)

Additional 8 Construction Points:
-Piercing attack (bite x3 threat)
-Exceptional Reach (tail)
-Extra natural attack (Talon)
-Extra natural attack (talon)
-Slashing Attack (talon x3 threat)
-Slashing Attack (talon x3 threat)
-Extra Natural attack (foreclaws)
-Faster.

Contruct Modification Extra Hit Dice x2. HD goes from 4 to 6.

This adds to cost as follows:base cost/HD per extra Hit Die added. Base HD are 4, +8 extra CP = base cost is 12K. 12k/4 is 3k per Hit Die added, adding 6K to total cost

Each HD adds "10.5" hit points so 21hp extra (or I'd let the player roll)
Also adds:
+2 CR
+3 AC
+2 to attack
+4 damage

Using my house rule (that says the craft DC is 11 or HD whichever is *higher*, rather than going with either always DC 11 as per the UM rule or always HD according to the alternative crafting rule), then I think that all of the above is calculated for crafting as follows:

Craft Cost: 10K gp [6 HD + 8 extra CP =14 x1000gp. 14000gp plus 6K for extra 2 HD added as modification). Then ½ price for construction cost. Materials are no cost (lots of mud. fabricate to shape).
List Price: 20Kgp [if going to sell]
Spellcraft DC:26 [11+5 (standard craft construct)+10 (2 spells missing)]
Time to craft: 10 days [craft cost / 1000 in days]

Note if I used the pure 'alternative' animated object crafting rules the DC to craft would be even lower - 5 lower! - as it would be based on HD6.

Do I have that all correct?

Also, Rules say to use the adding hit dice rules for monsters, which grant a feat based on number of total HD. Whilst I wouldn't let him 'backfill', would it get the extra feat it is owed for having HD6 as opposed to it's original HD4?

If I have all that right (regardless of the feat question) that's... pretty sick. Surely I've overlooked some balancing feature?

dunklezhan wrote:

There are of course much better options for a mount. But he's got his heart set on a damn stone dinosaur, who am I to say no if it's within the rules and his character can pull it off?

Well, stone is readily available. Just gotta dig down. r cast Wall of Stone.

He'd still have to pick 'stone' as a construction point option though I think, right?

Who zapped my avatar?

/cevah

was wondering that about my avatar. I certainly didn't set it that way. Is it supposed to be some kind of punishment? Is someone going to tell me what I did wrong?

...anyway. Yes I think we're in agreement Cevah - he wants quick & cheapish (check), he wants magical and impressive (check). He's explicitly said he knows it would not be a true Golem (check). He just thought it might be the GM's job to try to piece it all together (by which he meant 'I really can't be bothered, can you look into it' and it piqued my interest, so I said yes).

Thankfully, thanks to all this discussion, I also know what to do if now having gone through all the books and website and back and forth he decides actually he'd rather go for a full on Golem.

There are of course much better options for a mount. But he's got his heart set on a damn stone dinosaur, who am I to say no if it's within the rules and his character can pull it off?

Re special materials - I dunno, I just figured there had to be SOME for a proper full-on elemental-bound golem. I know there's quite a few high level spells required for many golems, just figured there'd have to be some 'oil of an Aboleth's Ink Sack' or something :)

I'm not getting that "constructs must be mindless" from anywhere - I'm getting that *Animated Objects* made permanent with Craft Construct are mindless, because:

1. The text for adding ability scores to constructs from Ultimate Magic says: "Ability Score Modification: Using this modification, a crafter can permanently increase one of the construct's ability scores by +2 per modification. He cannot increase any abilities with a score of 0."

2. An "Animated Object", according to the Bestiary listing (ref here: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/animatedObject.html#animated-ob ject), has Int -, which we said earlier was effectively 'zero'.

So... a purely 'animated object' - i.e. not a named construct like a terracota warrior, one of the golems or a mithral cobra - cannot have it's Int increased, can it?

I'm well aware that there are any number of constructs he could create that DO have an Int score, but he is wanting a quick and dirty construct since he doesn't have time/access to a lab to really craft one during an adventure - Serpent's Skull, up to now, is essentially a 'race' to get several hundred miles mostly through dense jungle - so he can (and has) spent his four hours a day making minor items which don't require too much special or large quantities of raw material. But four tonnes of clay waiting to be made into an animated object? Not really!

After you get to Saventh Yhi you're still racing to 'discover' things, but they now have a static base to craft from so he doesn't need to pack up and move every day, so the time has come (in his mind) to make a scary mount with his spare 4 hrs a day which will incidentally give him an elevated position to cast spells & shoot his bow from, now they're not constantly fighting through jungle. That his mount might be able to bite stuff that gets too close is just gravy.

He *could* make something more advanced, but it will take him weeks to send back to Sargava for all the special ingredients for golems etc., even assuming he had the cash, which he doesn't.

What he DOES have is access to Fabricate (70 cu ft), Transmute Mud to Rock (which he doesn't technically 'need' as he will still have to spend construction points on 'stone', but symbolically it's a nice touch so I might give it an extra point of hardness for the effort), and manpower to dig him a sufficient quantity of mud for him to use both of those spells on.

I can't speak for the wisdom of what he wants to do of course (it will be a CR5 construct in a CR7-12 area unless he adds loads of modifications, but he doesn't really have the funds to do that. Once they've made some discoveries in Saventh Yhi I could let him trade off that with their faction however), I just wanted to work out what it was capable of doing so I could a: tell him what he needed to do to craft it (which I now know, thanks very much!) and set his expectations about it's effectiveness since it seems to be mindless and purely for 'attack' purposes according to the various references.

I think I will go with "mindless but can be given single task instructions for whatever it's morphology would let it do (ram that, bite that, lie down, stop, move over there, etc.)" rather than 'it can only attack things'.

Thanks for all the time you've spent on this Cevah, really helpful.

dunklezhan wrote:

ok, definitely worth considering all of that.

Also there's a +5DC mod we are missing that I spotted in my copy of Ultimate Magic - craft construct is CL+5 like any other magic item craft role.

...and in terms of adding int, another question: with construction modifications say specifically that you cannot add an ability score to an ability with a score of zero. Animate object has an int of '-'. Should that not be treated as zero?

That +5 you spotted is the standard base DC = CL + 5.

The "-" should be treated as zero.

Here is a selection of constructs with Int > 0. Replace "|" with a tab and paste into a spreadsheet. I already filtered for size(small,medium,large).
** spoiler omitted **...

Appreciate that such constructs exist, what I'm saying is that according to the rules... they shouldn't. Which is fine for named "monsters" or things which have specific rules to allow it (e.g. Golems or homonculi) but I'm not sure it is ok for a player-made 'cheap shortcut' construct like an Animated Object. Or am I being too restrictive?

ok, definitely worth considering all of that.

Also there's a +5DC mod we are missing that I spotted in my copy of Ultimate Magic - craft construct is CL+5 like any other magic item craft role.

...and in terms of adding int, another question: with construction modifications say specifically that you cannot add an ability score to an ability with a score of zero. Animate object has an int of '-'. Should that not be treated as zero?

Oh - I did look at the guide you linked as part of my research. My player really wants to do one of the things on the 'never bother with' list. /shrug.

And I looked at the homonculous. I have a thematic problem with a 'little man' being shaped like a dinosaur. Also it says it should be vaguely humanoid, which is not what my player is after.

I did have one other question - attacks. Does an animated object basically just get a single slam attack regardless of form? If it's shaped like a megaraptor, with skull and tail and foreclaws etc. do I need to buy these attacks as 'extra natural attacks' or does it just get them? (My default position for the player is that they need to be purchased, particularly since the player isn't really making it as a combat pet).

Thanks again :)

I meant uses in general. Can he order it to pick things up (in it's oh so delicate giant maw...), can he order it to shove things or prop up a roof? Like I say, he's not actually building it for combat, that's just a side effect. What he's after is the cool intimidating mount, I'm just thinking ahead to the inevitable 'get it to push that tree over and help us clear a path' type situations. I suppose it's being ordered to 'attack' the tree in that case, but hopefully you can see what I'm getting at.

Re other mods and boosting the crafting DC - don't know how I hadn't spotted the general construct mods on that page. I guess I was kinda thinking he could only use the animated object Construction Point list on mods, and the other Craft Construct mods were only for golems. But of course they're general. So yeah, that could boost the DC to craft. Some of them just increase the CR however, which has no bearing on the crafting DC, only on cost. Giving it 2 intelligence (like a smart animal which could take 'trick' level instructions) would cost him 10K for instance but not increase the DC.

Hmm. If it has Int doesn't that mean it could learn? I mean, aren't we opening a can of worms there about teaching tricks and 'handle construct' skills and the like?

/meh. I can open that can no worries, if need be.

Re the wondrous item - yes he could craft it. But he hasn't. Hasn't got the mats, or basically has other priorities - the loot gods have not been kind to the group, so his crafting time is on utility stuff like goggles of darkvision, always-on endure elements so they can wander aroudn the jungle fully kitted up, that kind of thing, and since they're in a 'race' for Saventh Yhi there hasn't exactly been a lot of opportunity for downtime and crafting.

Who says we just got to 7th? not sure what you're getting at here. We just got to Saventh Yhi, was that a pun on 'saventh' that I missed? My head's still a bit spinning from all the crafting stuff...

As it happens, they SHOULD have just hit 7th level. But whilst the loot gods have not been kind at all, the random encounter gods have blessed them, repeatedly with an abundance of hostile jungle critters. None of which carry loot as standard, of course. This adventure path is definitely not monty haul, they're going to be very disappointed when they see all the loot Saventh yhi doesn't have...

Thanks Cevah.

When I said 'what use is a...' I wasn't asking about the difference between crafting methods, that was just to show I understood there were both ways to do it. Thanks though :) What I think I really meant was "what *uses* are there for an animated object vs a golem?"

'Give it some intelligence' - this made me lol a bit, purely because constructs have an intelligence of "-" so strictly speaking I *can't* give it some intelligence!

But I agree with the sentiment so I'll stop worrying about whether he can give it different orders than 'attack'. So again - thanks very much.

Crafting DC:

First, I'm considering houseruling the crafting DC so that it's CL11 or HD, whichever is higher because that seems more realistic given the min caster level for the animate objects spell itself if you *could* cast it. But that's completely by the by, so let's bench that so I can comment on your other very useful points on RAW!

In terms of his crafting roll and your assumptions - nowhere close to that.

1. We play a roll 4d6 take the highest game, not the point buy game and
2. we use the random loot tables unless it's treasure in the adventure path we're on (serpent's skull, we *just* got to Saventh Yhi)

In other words, he has all kinds of scrolls and potions, and not even a +1 Int item, never mind a +2 and a starting score of 18 was not what the dice gods gave him (you should see his Wis score...).

He is a Win7/Sorc1 (currently, but this isn't a discussion of his build choices...) Mordant Spire Elf with an Int of 18 even after level ups and racial mods - and yes that's his highest stat. So that's:
Casting stat +4
Spellcraft ranks +8
Class skill +3

For a total of 15 with a take ten putting it to 25, which is just over the DC even with my house rule (if I use the correct 4HD instead of 5Hd, d'oh!) or, with the RAW alternative animated object crafting rules, plenty more than enough :)

So I should have worked out what he actually had in terms of roll chance sooner, clearly. Anyway, whether it's do-able or not wasn't really the point, it was that it seemed like a high DC, but when you lay the numbers out like that for a L8 character it really isn't that 'high' at all.

And more or less everything I learned before I posted I'd gotten from the sources you quoted (I have all the core rulebooks and bestiary 1 but not the adventure path that alternative rules come from, and it was a lot easier to just look at the rules combined in basically one or two pages online than to use the books for this).

Anyway - thank you, you've soothed my concerns :)

Edit: actually I do have one point of contention:

From what I can tell, the crafting DC should not be affected by construct mods nor does it have a 'caster level' requirement.

According to the alternative crafting rules:

CP additions affect only
1. the cost and
2. the CR (and only then if they are not part of the freebies based on size).

There's no minimum CL listed under 'requirements' and the +5DC increases you can take when you are using Craft Construct are ONLY for 'Requirements' you don't meet.

If there IS a min caster level requirement that I've missed, then under the alternative crafting rules it would only be equal to HD anyway which in this case 4, well under the character's caster level anyway.

Do I have that right?

If so, then with the alternative crafting rules the DC for the animated stone megaraptor for this character should be:

4HD (Large construct based on Megaraptor, both of which are 4HD) +5(no animate object)+5(no permanency).

or 14. 21 with my houserule (which would have a 'HD' starting at 11 because that's the min caster level of animate objects and that's higher than the 4HD creature).

... and now I will go look at Homonculus.

I have a more basic question, if you pardon the necro:

What use is a permanent animated object (whether via craft construct or the spell + Permanency)? According to the spell description it attacks the thing you designate when first animated... and that's it. Do they become more like Golems in terms of giving orders to do whatever you feel like if you're in line of sight etc, or are they just attack that. now attack that. now attack that. etc etc. I mean, can you order them to follow you even?

I ask because a player at my table wants to make a nice stone statue of a megaraptor, then animate it using craft construct (taking the DC penalties for not having the relevant spells) with a few extra attacks but basically he just wants to use it to ride around on because he thinks its more wizardly and seemly for an Elf of the Mordant Spire than some dirty old nag. Its also cheap, and the party aren't exactly rolling in cash at the moment.

He'd rather make a true golem but the rules on that are... highly arcane if you're not trying to replicate a pre statted construct. Animated Object constructs on the other hand are pretty easy to stat and can have some nifty extras through the straightforward CP/CR system, so I was going to steer him that route.. then it occurred to me he might not be able to order it to do anything but attack stuff. Which will be a bit useless for riding!

Any clues anywhere?

Re caster level - I assume it is CL11 as the base for the craft test because that's the lowest level cleric which could cast the spell. That would cover animating up to a Huge object. Next one up would be gargantuan which would require CL16 on that same cleric (or a L16 bard who just got the spell), making it a CL16 base number for the craft construct test.

In my players case he only wants a Large object, which only needs CL4. However, you need min level 11 to cast the spell if you have it, therefore the CL can go for the craft test is still base 11, +5 for not having animate objects, +5 for not having permanency, +5 for the CR of the creature (or more if he exceeds the free construction points) giving him a DC of 26 to actually pull it off.

That's my understanding anyway.

If so, then back to my original question because that DC seems pretty high for a mere CR5 construct that can then only be ordered to attack stuff and not move around, or head in such and such a direction, or lie down, or whatever.

So... if this isn't covered in the rules anywhere (I've spent like four hours searching and collating in my books and online), does a houserule regarding it being able to be ordered about in the same way as a standard golem be reasonable?

Has anyone covered how to explain discovery point and camp stats in character? My players are not fans of metagamey mini games!

I am interested in what you have to say and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

I think I will disallow spells cast by items. But he will get those if he faces the Players personally, so that's fine.

I like the idea of illusionary damage. At zero I think rather than being knocked out they will be incapacitated by pain, giving them a chance to disbelieve again especially if it becomes clear that no one is actually passing out at zero. Plus they get a chance to disbelieve every time they take damage ("interacting"). Eventually they will see through the illusion. That illusion anyway and poof! All healed! But they are "at will" illusions so along comes the next one...

Yeah..I see how this works now.

On prices - my bad. Read the 8.5 as 6.5 and I'm sure one of those items was listed at 1k. But you're right and I was posting after midnight so...

Thank you so much this is great stuff.

wait wait hang on - you are suggesting using items to cast touch/greater range spells via the projected image? Is that ok?

I mean, it says 'any spell YOU cast', are items you use counted as YOU casting the spells? They don't use your caster level, so aren't the cast by the object, not you? If I let that work, surely the party wizard will want to be able to do the same thing when they are capable of casting L7 wizard spells.

I'm not sure I like the idea of the party's wizard hiding outside encounter X with a wand of fireballs in his hand, laying waste to whats inside with an invulnerable illusion, which will only get MORE believable with each very real fireball it lands unless something gets close enough to take a swing at it!

That's not to say I won't give him new items - they'll be useful if players do eventually penetrate his illusions. I totted the items up by the way, they're worth about 9K not 13K. But that was from memory, so I forgive you. I can still make some limited /day permanent items with that, having seen the formula.

That's really, really helpful advice, which I am digesting. And fits with my 'has hoard of fancy loot from Saventh Yhi for the players if and only if they actually defeat him.

And since there will be plenty of dominated monsters doing his archaeology in random places I can explain some of the lack of loot elsewhere, which will motivate the players further to find out who is spiriting away 'their' loot. Maybe I will up his loot a bit more, give him a stack of 10 discoveries or something in a dry cave nearby. They likely won't complete the discovery race until book 4, so that will be a nice boost that might clinch the race if they get that far.

After partially digesting (I will be doing more reading), I have more questions on the RAW interpretations on those illusions (I am not a stickler for RAW at all, I just like to know if I'm breaking rules so I can do it consistently):

Project Image (figment, shadow)
May be a shadow illusion but it specifically says it is intangible. "The projected image looks, sounds, and smells like you but is intangible". So if its intangible, it can't inflict momentary pain won't have AC, surely? And when you say momentary pain what are we talking about? Describing 'near misses' or actual illusionary stabbings? I'm interested in how the mechanics of the fight work to make the *players* believe it's a real fight beyond the first round of each 'wave' of illusionary monsters.

Programmed Image (figment, definitely has AC)
Can do "thermal" so could presumably do an illusory fireball that 'just misses' but causes a blast of heat that makes players keep their heads down? But again, doesn't say it does tactile.

Only Mirage Arcana (glamer)
From my reading of the spell is tactile but I read that as a landscape changing spell, it specifically says it cannot add creatures. So it can't be the source of AC capable minions, it has to be programmed image. Which is fine but see above. I can see uses for that like concealing it's lair further, making it look like a festering weed filled shallow pool (which of course only lasts till someone wades in it because it can't bear weight), or making it look like the gully is simply blocked by landslip, which will work unless the PCs feel there's a reason to try to climb over it.

Last question (I'm probably lying about that):

I don't think I saw in your post here or in the other thread though - how do you have him move around the city safely in order to dominate (and refresh his domination over) creatures?

He has to do it every few weeks at least per creature dominated, or he has to seek new creatures to dominate. He only needs telepathic contact once/day to keep it going to its maximum duration, but 17 days later it runs out. So whether he renews on the same creatures or picks new ones, he has to move around the city and he is a BIG fish. He's not going to be moving through only partially subsided and submerged streets even, not at full speed. Only the true water ways - canals and lake, really sunken parts (like parts of mercantile) and parts of the river, are going to be big enough to let him swim freely.

Do I simply assume he uses illusions (or his new shiny gear) to move around unseen, creating distractions and hiding, in order to overcome his speed issues? Or is there some way he can do all his dominating remotely? Maybe I should have him out and about occasionally, but give him a ring of fly 3/day for quick getaways...

Oh, I know - I could just not worry about it! D'oh! He only has to come out every couple of weeks, and he can just wait for something to come past, right? If I roll him on the random encounter chart he can just hide from them or cause a distraction, escaping and leaving them wondering what all that was about, or it might not even be him they encounter - it could just be a group of dominated archaeological slaves, or whatever. I mean, really he only has to dominate a leader of a group and give it a plausible reason and the group will do its work without the domination, right?

Thanks very much! I'm going to steal... All of that, frankly. And give him a huge pile of recovered loot as well since the players really are loot light at level 8 now and still at tazion. Random encounters can rack up a lot of xp apparently. Point is I want to give them an overall villain for the seven spears book because I don't think they'll be there long before they hit L10 and I can bring them back in line then. Considering downplaying the district inhabitants and focussing on random encounters and one or two small tribes plus the factions. The aboleth would be a great bad guy I could feel it but couldn't see how to pull it off.

One question: when you say players "fight" projected images what do you mean? They can't hit anything and are destroyed if anything hits them. Presumably they don't have an ac even so how did you play out the "fights"?

EDIT: Can a kind mod please spoiler bracket my first post? I realise now that this isn't a GM area, and that's very bad etiquette on my part./end edit.

Anyone?

Could really use help here, I want to make it a memorable bad guy.

As you can tell, I've a real blind spot with GMing illusions :) Can anyone give me some ideas using just the specific spells on Yog'oltha?

I'm clearly missing something - I don't know if i'm just not cunning enough with illusion magic, or if I've just overlooked something in the text but anyway...

Yogoltha the aboleth can be encountered around the city as a random encounter. He's even cited as a possible 'retaliation', stealing away/dominating an NPC.

My question is: how?

A projected image has only 100ft +10-ft per level range so it's not like it can do that from it's nice safe pool, veiled or not. I can't imagine the Aboleth is going to want to go near the froghemoth or mokele-mbembe so the large lakes are probably out. It's currently in a pool/slow lake which joins up with a river tributary who's source is only a thousand feet upriver meaning the tributary can't possibly be deep or wide enough yet to have a 6500lb, 25ft long aboleth swim down it in order to get to the network of canals or what have you (that the map doesn't show as being particularly extensive anyway) and I can't see it dragging itself across land, certainly not through Saventh-Yhi where it would be vulnerable.

Aboleths can have class levels. But this one - despite being 'advanced' and 4 CR levels higher than a normal Aboleth - does not. There's really very little to show for those 4CR levels except some higher DC/stats.

This particular Aboleth is stated as having only the 2 gibbering mouthers and the boggard oracle as minions. Neither of these are anywhere near combat range of the aboleth if the players happen to discover it's hidden pool and there is practically nothing that the Aboleth, from stats, can do without leaving the pool and travelling deep into the city, rendering it highly vulnerable. There's a good chance that the players will encounter and kill the mouthers and Oracle before they encounter the aboleth anyway and it only has 3/day dominates so its not like it can create an army of slaves quickly.

If someone can give me a clue as to how to actually play Yog'oltha that would be really helpful! How did you use it in your campaign, how do you normally play aboleths?

Second: how do Aboleths fight if it comes to a direct confrontation? The illusions they can cast do not include any shadow illusions so they can't actually do any damage with their spell like abilities, nor will any illusionary minions fool anyone when it comes to actual combat. They only get 3 dominates a day. Sure the DC23 is high enough but the instant a player is given any kind of useful instruction they get a second save, so with players at L7-10 it's certainly not a guarantee that this will work.

In short, I think need a crash course in:

'how to use combined illusions to combat advantage' with the illusions in question coming only from the Aboleth SLA list.

Using veil to make himself look like something else then projected image to be able to go out to fight is all very well, but it can't actually *do* anything when it does that - sure you can cast spells via a projected image. But it doesn't have any! It has some illusion SLAs (all non-shadow so cannot cause damage) and a limited number of dominates that it might or might be able to land, and anything useful it could do with them will grant a second save anyhow.

I appreciate Aboleths aren't supposed to be direct confrontation monsters especially, but I'm having real difficulty seeing how this particular one (which named but with no class levels, particularly not wizard: it had to use a dominated wizard in order to get access to the Fly spell and get to Saventh Yhi in the first place) can be used in the way the adventure pack says it can be used?

Thank you so much Rob, I tried and tried to find a forum that wasn't on the product page itself, I really did. I searched, I browsed... Sorry. My Paizo.com-fu is weak :)

my whole question is a spoiler but I couldn't figure out how to start a thread for the product as the 'start a discussion' option directed by teh messageboards doesn't appear to exist. Really hope someone can answer this for me!

Be grateful for any advice to help me rationalise this IC to the players.

No, you still must have the Feat...

& if someone can disprove this please provide the source because I can no longer find the source for the ruling I am saying.

N-n-n-n-n-NECRO!

Ahem.

I can't find very much on this either but I would say yes, you'd have to actually have the crane style feat to qualify for buying the progressions.

I assume this is a trade off, because I also can't find anything which says you have to have the pre-requisites for Crane or Dragon Style in order to take those styles as one of your trances (i.e. you don't have to have Imp Unarmed Combat - because you're a SWORDmaster - or Dodge, or the skill investments). However you get FIVE different trances by the end of the swordmaster progression, which would be a huge investment for a character buying the feats.

So anyway - what I want to know is have I interpreted that correctly? Specifically:

My player has a Tengu Swordmaster (actually a rebuilt Pezok from Smuggler's Shiv to replace a dead PC). I have said he does not need the prerequisite feats in order to take any of the styles as his trances, and that he can use dragon and crane stances with his sword.

Do I have that right?

I'm not going to change that on him now, but I wanted to know for future reference if I had it right.

Cheers

Don't think too hard about it.

I'm told that is generally the root of my problems, yeah :)

Thanks for the replies

Forgive me, I've done a bit of searching but I just cannot find a specific answer to this.

So, I realise that magic weapons of sufficient power can be used to bypass material and alignment restrictions:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Damage-Reductio n

What I can't find out is how this applies to things like DR slashing/blunt/piercing etc. It isn't mentioned on the table at all in fact, but I don't like to just assume that means that DR based on these kinds of DR types cannot ever be overcome any other means, given that something as potent as, say DR/admantine can be overcome with a simple +3 sword.

For what it's worth, in our game:

Druid has character background, done as part of character creation (as do all the other characters). If their background explains how they've travelled and studied and investigated and researched animals from all over the world their entire life... then I will allow them to make knowledge nature checks to see if they are 'familiar' whenever they like. Their background will need to explain how they did that as well as managing all the other things they might want their character to be able to do, but if they can find a way to do it "reasonably" (as agreed between me and the player) then cool.

If, as with our current druid, they spent their entire time in a river valley in NE/central Varisia, and embarked on their L1 adventuring career because they felt a call to more or less the other side of the world, then I ruled that they were automatically familiar with anything from the temperate mountain/lowland/river type domains, but as they'd never been anywhere else, and lived in a rustic backwater... then they simply would not be familiar with anything else - though they could still make knowledge nature checks to see what facts they might know about any animal they encounter, or what they could deduce from it's appearance and behaviour (I like the kangaroo example from earlier "you don't know what it is exactly but from looking at it you'd bet that..."). But that is not familiarity in my view, that is raw knowledge. Like me knowing conceptually that big rig trucks have sleeping quarters. I still don't know how comfortable they are.

How do they become familiar with those kinds of animals? By seeing them, encountering them, stalking them, catching them, or, yes, summoning them for study. If the animal is basically a variant of something they're already familiar with like a type of snake, then they pretty much only need to see the variant to be able to wildshape to it. If it's totally new (a monkey, for example, as this druid hadn't even been to the port where they might have seen say a sailor with a pet monkey) then they'll actually need to spend some time familiarising themselves with it before they can change into it. But once they've done that, they only need to lay eyes on a howler monkey, or a bonobo, to be able to change into it.

That works for us, and we all agree that works for the purposes of verisimilitude. Nobody feels put out about it, in fact I think the player likes the fact that how her character progresses will be unique.

All anyone can say with any certainty is that the rules say you must be familiar. They do not say how you gain familiarity, they do not say what it actually means. So, RAW it's completely up to the GM. RAI? anyone's guess but I'd say it's completely up to the GM and his players to agree something that works for their playstyle, campaign and to ensure that no player feels hard done by. Just be consistent once you've decided.

And no-one has to be a dick about it at all.

In my group animal companions are controlled by the player. And always do what the player wants (in the case of the companion, possibly following a handle animal check). However the player actually *look* to me as the GM to 'play' the animal's personality so she can get RP from it. It's fun for both of us, and it helps her form an emotional attachment to the creature rather than treating it as she would her halfling sling or armour or what have you.

Every player I've ever played with (who have all been friends, never done organised play etc) has behaved that way, including me when I'm a player. Its just a culture thing. If we RPd our own pets, it would feel a bit schizophrenic I think. But the pet is always going to do as it's master demands. Many of the 'masters' I've played with on the other hand actively develop a more touchy feely relationship and only *ask* their companions/pets to do things, giving them a lot of latitude.

This last thing may in fact be all my fault, now I think about it, for drilling into them over the course of a couple of decades what happens to mages and shaman in Shadowrun if they abuse their summons and they happen to break free...

Anyway.

Point being, I can't imagine a player being so closed to the idea of the GM playing their pet/eidolon/summoned monster/hireling/henchmen/what have you. Yes they do as they're told unless there's a compelling reason (like they've been charmed or something), but they are distinct beings. Which to me means NPC, which to me means the GM is free to portray the personality as they see fit, providing the creature continues to provide the player character with the benefits they have invested in. We play to roleplay with each other, not with ourselves (and to kill monsters and take their stuff, obviously), these kinds of companions are an excuse for that - why miss out?

In terms of personality for an eidolon? They're outsiders. They could be highly simple personalities, or all kinds of twisted up. Give it an origin story (see numerous posts in the thread with some great examples), and give it to your GM, and the rest will probably take care of itself. If you're a GM, I would get my player to write an origin story and then I'd run with it for them, as appopriate for drama, progressing the storyline, and comedy demands.

Your reasoning is sound

hurrah, I shall put that on a t-shirt, forthwith.

Thanks VelcroZ, I think I get it now. And yeah, I agree that your 'big ticket' really distinctive items like giraffes, lions, T Rexes and so on I reckon would be famous enough to be common knowledge over most of the world.

I must have been writing my response while you were posting yours to Cheapy and missed it. I'd suggest scaling back the DC to 10 for the druid's homeland terrain. General information that an untrained person would know is usually a DC10 check, and identifying monsters is usually DC10+CR unless its rare or unique (DC15+CR). There's a good table here that shows identifying common animals and plants is only a DC10 as well.

ok, yes, that's a good idea for their home terrain.

In the section you linked, it says this under 'Checks' (separated for ease of discussion here):

Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of

10 (for really easy questions),
15 (for basic questions), or
20 to 30 (for really tough questions).

and goes on to say, as you pointed out, DC15 for 'rare' or unique creatures. I would certainly say that everything in the jungles is rare as far as the character is concerned, so that's the base DC for seeing if features etc can be 'identified'.

But is 'identify' the same as 'familiar'?

Seems to me that familiarity would be up at the 'basic', rather than 'easy' level. What do you think? Am I being too harsh?

Let me try to explain why I'm pressing the issue as much as it must seem:

The druid is now L4, and already has something like a +8 bonus to Knowledge (nature). DC10+CR is therefore practically a forgone conclusion to the types of creatures she's likely to encounter at home at this point in the campaign. DC15+CR for the stuff in mwangi. And that's just fine for identifying that that right there is a dienonychus, so watch out cos it's got claws and a bite and some of them have poison etc. But is that the right DC for a druid who just got wildshape to see if they can shift into one?

Is that the ease of power/ability level that Pathfinder usually intends?

Note that this is my first pathfinder campaign, and the first time I've GMd DnD generally - and until now I'd only actually played up to 2.5ed. So I'm not trying to argue folks round to my way of thinking here (honest!), I'm just explaining my thought processes, trying to get a feel for how the game is generally pitched.

thanks everyone, much appreciated

For druids, knowledge checks for things they haven't seen. If you've been in an encounter with it, you're familiar with it.

Thanks for that. We've actually jury rigged more or less on that basis (couldn't find an actual rule to cite beyond general knowledge rules, but they don't explicitly refer to being 'familiar' - is there such a rule at all?). I am using DC15 if it's from a terrain the druid's background suggests they're from - we're at the start of the campaign so that works well, since the halfling druid is from the Varisian river valleys and dales and we're running Serpent's Skull, I'm quite happy for them to just roll a DC15 to see if they're familiar with creatures from temperate plains/woods/hills (i.e. terrain similar to the bit of Varisia they actually lived in), 20 if creatures from cold mountains or cold seas (i.e. terrain similar to the bit of Varisia they don't live in). Beyond those terrains, I'm not sure whether I should allow knowledge checks or not for familiarity.

I mean, they're not remotely familiar with very hot jungles and plains. I.e. Sargava, smuggler's shiv or the mwangi expanse. I'm not particularly willing to just go with knowledge checks on stuff that to everyone in the party would be very exotic. Happy to accept advice on that - but I'll take under advisement that if they've had an encounter they're familiar. I'm not entirely sure that applies in all circumstances (see my two 'encounter' examples in my OP).

But it does sound like I am on more or less the right track, which is a releif. Means I'll probably be able to translate something approrpiate for other abilities/spells that have a 'familiarity' condition (with additional bonuses if the character has an appropriate favored terrain or trait etc).

Thanks for the reply!

Hi,

Several rules refer to things the character is 'familiar' with. The example that comes to mind is wildshape (any [size category] that the druid is familiar with) but there are a few others, usually in relation to spell descriptions.

How do you determine whether the character is familiar with whatever it is?

My druid's been asking, and we've jury rigged some stuff about requiring slightly more exposure than having seen one. Fighting one in broad daylight, fair enough, you've seen it move, heard the noises it makes etc. Fighting one in darkness or heavy cover? Probably not enough. Sitting and observing a pair of otters for a morning would count, catching a glimpse of them in the river as you walk past, probably not.

Does that sound about the right balance?

EDIT: I'm sorry if this has been asked before. The use of this word in addition to it's "official" designation for wizards kind of throws off any search results you might get!

The limits are very clear. the ability operates just the same as other similar abilities whether paladin bond, Magus arcane pool enhancement, as well as enchantment in general. You don't surpass the +10 limit... period. If you keep piling on, earlier effects get dispelled until you are within the limit.

Ah ok, I'd not seen that. Now found the magic items section where it mentions the +10 limit (we're pretty new to pathfinder, we've not even got close to crafting yet). Table 15-9 in the rulebook, for reference, says how much the effects each cost (minor correction from my last post - when I said Con damage for "wounding" I did mean bleed damage, we're not *that* new to pathfinder).

But essentially then, yes, provided you have enough 'points' from the spell levels you sacrifice, you can stack the effects. kewl.

Now what about the question of those effects stacking with spells cast through the arcane gun? Yay or nay? Is that spellslinger really going to need actual bullets? Or, having sacrificed say a L5 spell for 5 mins of flaming, can they just shoot 1d6 of flames at targets each action or have they got to load bullets into the thing?

n-n-n-n-n-NECRO

but relevant for anyone else seeking a straight answer to these questions about stacking:

How many of the mage bullet effects can I stack? Say my player sacrifices a L8 spell, and puts +5 on there, does that mean

1. they can then put another 8-5=3 additional abilities (say, wounding, flaming burst and distance), or is it instead that
2. they can they only ever have one effect running in addition to the enhancement bonus, so they could have the +5 and any ONE of the list of special abilities listed under mage bullets?

Also, when it says you sacrifice your spell to put the ability on your "arcane gun", does that mean the spellslinger
1. still has to load and fire actual bullets to get the effects to carry to a target, or could the spellslinger
2. cast a ray of exhaustion through it as normal, with the special effect(s) applying to the spell itself?

E.g. Would it be possible for the the spellslinger to sacrifice a L8 spell, apply a +5 enhancement bonus, flaming burst, wounding and distance to their arcane gun, then rather than use bullets, instead cast a straightforward ray of exhaustion through the gun, but with +5 to hit on the ranged touch attack from the enhancement bonus, with flaming burst and wounding, +5 damage, on top of the str damage, at double range?

The text doesn't give very clear limits, meaning I *think* they could be read to allow the above scenario, which seems a tad over the top to me.

I'd second Onishi's idea though - a way for folk to create a genuine Alias with the same character would be an awesome RP tool.

But that'll ruin my gameplay as a spy for the sake of convenience...

I can't actually tell if you're joking or not. So I'm going to assume you're joking.

You seem to have the first element of what it takes to be a spy - a healthy does of extreme paranoia: you think people are going to be avoiding YOU specifically! You don't want to be a spy, you want to be an eavesdropper! Moreover, you think they'll do it to avoid YOU spying on them which means you don't think you're actually a very good spy, cos if you were, they wouldn't be trying to hide from you.

You're also suggesting people are going to use voice chat to avoid being spied on, as oppose to using it just because its easier. You know you *could* assume instead that if these folks actually want to Roleplay properly, in tune with the in game environment and available mechanisms, then they *will* be using /say (or whatever) because anything else would be metagaming and therefore not RP-kosher.

Though in WoW, the guild I was in always just used to pretend that our hearthstones auto-tuned to the guild's sub-thaum frequency to allow /g chat across the world. And there's no way to spy on that short of infiltration.

Lesson: If you want to be a really good *spy* in an MMO, then you need to learn to infiltrate. Mere eavesdropping's for lame-oid noobs, lol. Sorry. Let me rephrase that. Mere eavesdropping is for the amateur or new spy, guffaw.

Ban Skype, teamspeak, ventrilo, etc.

These tools allow players to communicate efficiently and with a level of guaranteed privacy their characters would not have in-world.
Any or all planning of raids, PvP or private events should be mandatorily discussed in /say or via notes that can be overheard or intercepted if delivered. Spies should be able to overhear plots and foil them, or sell the information to interested parties.
Good intelligence is what makes or breaks a kingdom in that era. You can get a level of this from bribable players, but eyes or eras on intelligence gathering should be encouraged and available.

While I do see where you're coming from, that's a bit OTT in my view. planning and giving out instructions via type in a raid or other combat situation is impractical - and very unrealistic to boot. People cannot take their eyes off the huge dragon attempting to eat their faces just to type 'Fighter2, flank left on my mark...' '1' '2' '3' 'NOW!'

Voice chat is imperative for an MMO. Also, to really have the effect you're talking about, private chat channels, tells/whispers, and even guild chat would also have to be unavailable. And that's *just* as impractical from an MMO perspective.

Perhaps a compromise - voice chat should only be available if there's a wizard in the party, and they all get 'telepathy' for free at L1 (or whatever passes for levels...)?

Blaaarg, I would like to have your babies.

A few other thoughts:

I would like to see the ability to create add ons (like WoW has) - because community driven RP tools are likely to be the best ones.

A very wide range of emotes is essential. Friendly (e.g. hugs, cheers, laugh), unfriendly (snarl, shake fist, rude gesture, I keeel you), neutral (ssh!, confusled, trap!) and just plain silly (dances, blow raspberry, behind you! its the goodyear blimp!, made you look! Clowning around). These sorts of things are essential, as is the ability to create custom emotes which don't necessarily have an animation associated with them.

The ability to turn on speech bubbles - and equally the ability to turn them off for those that hate them.

Character animations when using the equivalent of the 'immediate area' chat channel (/say in most games I've played) so you know who's talking even if you don't have the speech bubble facility on.

The ability for players to actively create and trade in game items that have no actual effect (e.g. write in game books, notes, create artwork and cloak designs etc etc)

Lying in beds, sitting in chairs (DDO, I'm looking at you, and shaking my head)

Cosmetic items which can be worn without necessarily first taking off a useful piece of gear - and perhaps a toggle that allows you the choice *not* to do this for the hardcore RPers.

Rep with factions affecting rep with other factions, and ideally alignment infractions - this is actually really important. These serve as both great RP tools as well as features good for an MMO generally - causing real in game effects based on individual player choice is often totally lacking in MMOs.

I'm sure there's more, but that's my main list.

As long as the setting 'rules' are right (which includes things like race heights and weights, bonuses roughly in the areas they're supposed to get bonuses in etc), there are recognisable DnD tropes (elves, dwarves, barbaians, wizards, equipment, carrying capacity, reasonably realistic physics except where magic is involved, deities and their followers etc), and as long as the Lore and setting are correct (e.g. in the recent thread about naming of the scum and villany base someone points out a few errors in the lore - that sort of stuff needs tightening up), then I do not care a fig for whether or not it uses the d20 3.75 ruleset.

What makes DnD fun is the people you play it with, roleplay quality, setting, and a ruleset that is consistent - those are the reasons why Pathfinder itself is so good. If the MMORPG can manage that, all will be well. People you play with and roleplay quality is in the control of the players. Setting is already established and well documented (although I really do need more info on the Mordant Spire if anyone background-team related is reading this...). Ruleset is the only variable left out of that trio, and the specific ruleset doesn't actually matter - the rules system in an MMO should be invisible to the players, so they can get on with playing.

I'm far, far more interested in what features will support roleplaying - this is something DDO completely ignored and in my view is it's main failing. WoW provides many, many features to support it and the game is much richer as a result.

TL; DR - don't care about the ruleset. Make it smooth and playable, make sure the roleplaying audience is a primary concern, and CHECK. YOUR. LORE. The rest will tend to itself.