Elitechobohax's page

Elitechobohax wrote:

I fail to see how Alter Self provides you with any additional attacks, it mere grants a few senses and either +2 to str or dex. To me, thats a pretty s%~@ty 2nd lvl spell, considering you can get a +4 str from Bull's Strength for 10 times the duration at the same spell level.

Look up the Polymorph under the Transmutation school under Magic in either the Core Rulebood or the PRD. You also gain the base land speed and natural attacks of the creature whose form you are taking, along with other fringe benefits (such as the ability to breathe water if you have a swim speed).

Aye i found out earlier and i also posted regarding that :)

Elitechobohax wrote:

Thats as little "proof" as everyone else as once again, i can define "visible shape" to be every visible aspect and feature - Yes, having a dimple, crowsfeet and a lazy eye is also a part of the "shape". You can argue that i chose to do that to be on the other side of things and that would be correct, but you cannot claim "for sure" thats how its intended to be read and understood. And something as small as DNA is a configuration, according to science, so if i can configure my DNA, i sure can get myself to look exactly as i would want (But we are getting off the fantasy-world base here)

This will be my last response, because its silly to argue with someone who refuses to use a word correctly. A form is a general shape. This is why some molds are referred to as forms. For example, you use a form to set the shape of concrete on a building. This has nothing to do with what color or decorations, that create its appearance.

You are attempting to twist the English language to assume the answer you want to be true, rather than the meaning that is correct.

Alright, i have a mutual-like feeling, so lets keep it at that

Woah, woah, woah. Please calm down and let's stop this argument. This is a simple issue of definition. We don't need rules to solve this puzzle.

form - noun
1. the visible shape or configuration of something.

You take on the FORM of something, its general shape and configuration. That is entirely separate from having an identical appearance. Two pairs of running shoes can have the same form but look different.

Form is a more general term than appearance. Saying two things have the same form means they fit into the same category in how they are shaped, constructed, and operate.

Thats as little "proof" as everyone else as once again, i can define "visible shape" to be every visible aspect and feature - Yes, having a dimple, crowsfeet and a lazy eye is also a part of the "shape". You can argue that i chose to do that to be on the other side of things and that would be correct, but you cannot claim "for sure" thats how its intended to be read and understood. And something as small as DNA is a configuration, according to science, so if i can configure my DNA, i sure can get myself to look exactly as i would want (But we are getting off the fantasy-world base here)

The spell has you assume the form of a type of humanoid creature. In other words, taking a sample of Jack Sparrow turns you into a human of similar hereditary. Every ability that uses alter self works this way unless it specifically says it allows you to assume the form of specific person. The material component just points out you're assuming a form matching the creature type of the sample. All polymorph spells work this way. If alter self said it lets you become a specific person, it would make this much more clear.

Then why is there this line, in the polymorph rules: "Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals" - If no spells specify that you can? Remember, this rule is from the PHB, so it SHOULD apply to AT LEAST one spell in the book and i come up with none.

I actually think that Hat vs Greater Hat argument is pretty valid. Only makes this question in more need of an official response and ruling.

Ah, you are correct, i didnt see that in the general polymorph rules as i was loking for other things, i just read up on the actual spell. My mistake, guess Alter Self just got a bit better, if you intent is pure "damage per round" and not actual "roleplay value", the last thing being the thing i was looking for from it.

I fail to see how Alter Self provides you with any additional attacks, it mere grants a few senses and either +2 to str or dex. To me, thats a pretty s$@~ty 2nd lvl spell, considering you can get a +4 str from Bull's Strength for 10 times the duration at the same spell level.

And regarding what my GM ruled, im fine with that, its his game (Sort of, because without players, you are not a GM). However he wants to play with it, is all good, we have other spells he changed because he thinks they are OP or have made them extreemly hard to obtain and thats also fine. What isnt fine, is that he took one side and i took another, in a spell thats clearly not crystal clear at all. I would just like clarification from a dev + an explanation to why the general polymorph rules state that, there is spells who superseed the general rules (And there isnt in the PHB, where the rules are. The only spell close to superseeding the general rules, because of the wording, is Alter Self)

Ofcourse, if i ran the game i'd rule it was like i read it, but my GM reads it another way AND refuses to acknowledge that it can be read in both ways. I dont have the spell on my character, nor do i need it, its purely a matter of principle now and, regardless of our childish dispute, the spell still needs an official ruling, because if i am right in my assumption that it can mimic a specific individual, the spell will finally get to a power level where its actually a decent level 2 spell, worth picking up for even spontaneous casters, depending on what you try to accomplish with your character. Disguise Self does the same, for 10 times the duration granting a spell save/skillcheck and at level 1 instead of 2.

Just had to check if the rule was in my PHB, regarding the polymorph rules and it was. So, by that reasoning, the line from the rules: "Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals." feels out of place, considering, as far as i've seen, NO polymorph spell in the book has the ability to mimic an individual exactly and are all hit by the "generic" rule. Why is it there? If it isnt, exactly because of Alter Self, which is the only spell that could "possibly" benefit from that rule, due to the wording of the materials line. I just feel its odd, to include an exception to a rule, when no exceptions exist.

Melkiador wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

Polymorph spells cannot be used to take the form of a specific individual, only a generic member of that species.

That rule is meaningless when "specific trumps general" though. What's really in question is "What is the true meaning of the text in the spell's componenets?". Personally, I think it's just fluff, but to say that it is "clear" is wrong. It is vague and that's ok. Things can be vague. That's why we have rule 0.

I would however expect most GMs to agree that the intent is that you don't take on the appearance of a specific person. If this were the intent it should have been stated in the spell's description instead of just in the components line.

It doesn't have to be. That's why we have general rules for broad areas like polymorph spells. It's how Pathfinder operates, general rules for any topic apply UNLESS specific text overrides them. There is no such overriding text in the Alter Self spell, so general rules and restrictions regarding polymorph spells apply.

The material component for the spell is for taking the shape of the general TYPE of creature of the form you wish to assume. The hair of a human allows you to assume the generic shape of a human. (so logically a human caster could use his own hair). The general appearance is what you decide at the time of casting, gender/skin color/tall/skinny/fat/young/old etc.

A caster using the Eschew Materials feat has just the same amount of options as one using a material component, no less, no more.

I agree that if you use Escrew or Wands or similar "generic ways" to obtain the spell cast, that you assume a generic form. Makes good sense to me. But if you have "a piece of the creature whose form you plan to assume" that sure sounds like you can obtain the form of that creature - Nowhere is Creature Type mentioned, as many have tried to use as the argument of what its "supposed" to mean. Thats still, not a credible answer. You are entitled to read this spell that way you like, as am i, but there is no way you can purely say "its written like this" when the wording isnt clear. And its not or we wouldnt have this debate

Perhaps, but lets try to debate what is fair, gamewise according purely to the spell not in what obscure ways people can abuse it with other spells, rules, whatever.

My argument is this: Disguise Self is a level 1 spell and it can mimic a persons facial features COMPLETELY for TEN TIMES THE DURATION, the drawback being it warrants a spell save due to its illusion nature. Would it be wholly "unfair" that a spell of a higher level, is able to do that for 1/10th the duration, but invoke no spell save? Seeing this from a purely "i want a impersonate someone physically" for a very short time. Keep in mind, you do not gain any way to impersonate the person vocally, its mannerism, movement patterns or the like from the spell. These things COULD be obtained by careful study of the individual over a longer period of time, but thats nothing new. Hell, you can even obtain this effect with a disguise kit and some good prep time and having it last for as long as you want.

Maybe Alter Self is unable to grant that, so be it, but it needs a ruling from an official because several people here, do not agree that its clear from the spell. Having a strong opinion on the matter does not make a person correct either, so keep saying its "logical" or refer to polymorph rules wont achieve anything. If you CAN read a spell in more than one way, you have the RIGHT to do that and claim that you are right as much as people reading it another way can claim they are right - Thus, the need for clarification.

Also, if no other polymorph-line spell can imitate specifics, why is it mentioned in the polymorph rules at all?

You also assume that we think the way you do, again, its not specified and you are not expected to assume what the creators mean. You are meant to read the spell and understand it. Pure and simple. And i have no agenda behind it, i just want a clarification as i have no need to use the spell myself, but i feel it should be able to be used that way. Its a principle matter

If you dont see how it could be any clearer, you are obviously seeing this from a biased point of view. There is nothing clear about having a general rule contradict the wording of the spell. And thus, it warrants a FAQ answer, just to get this out of the way. Considering i dont believe there is any other alteration/polymorph line of spells that makes you able to assume specific features, i find it odd that its mentioned in the rule that it can, IF the spell specifies it. If there really is no polymorph line of spells that can do it, why was that part of the rules included?

Still hoping for a real clarification and explanation on the wording of this spell.

"a piece of THE creature whose form you plan to assume" - Sounds pretty specific to me, more specific than reading the word creature meaning creature type. The wording is bad and should be clarified, because is it stands, it can be interpreted differently and both ways seem to be valid enough. And it shouldnt be

Sure, it doesnt work for escrew very well, nor wands, but that doesnt change the fact that the wording of the spell is poor as you can clearly read it in more than one way. The question here isnt about "whats right", but its more a question of getting the wording changed so you cannot read it in more than the intended way. If its meant to NOT be able to alter self into someone specific, thats all well and good, but as the spell is described currently, you can and thats without stretching the imagination very far either. adding just the word "type" after the word creature in this line "Components V, S, M (a piece of the creature whose form you plan to assume)", fixes the problem, if its indeed a problem.

Indeed, thats the line i have the problem with, because i read that as a fairly clear statement that you intend to take the form of the creature you have a piece of and, in my book, it clearly should override the polymorph rules as this is in the actual spell. But the wording is still vague and thats the issue to me. You can clearly read it both ways and untill there is a much clearer definition as to excactly how it works, either way would be perfectly legit to use right now

Im all for that polymorph rules Will overrule the component, i just want to confirm that the Wording should have been clearer as i easily read it the other Way around. I just feel there is no clear cut answer in the rules if you read Them as they are written in the description of the spell component

Seeing that whose is the possessive form of who, to me, the line with the material component indicates that its from a specific person and thus will give a specific form.

First time posting, unsure what you mean by that

I have a question i'd love to get some input on regarding Alter Self.

The question is this: Can you use Alter Self to assume a specific form of another person. According to the polymorph rules, you cannot, unless its specified.

And in the Alter Self spell, this line "Components V, S, M (a piece of the creature whose form you plan to assume)" seems to indicate, at least to me, that you can ONLY turn into the person of whom you have the piece of.

Example: I have chopped of a piece of flesh from Captain Jack Sparrow and i cast Alter Self with the hand as the material component. According to my reasoning, i'm now, Captain Jack Sparrow as i assumed his form. A fully mimicked version of him in all physical aspects. I dont have the mannerism, his knowledge and quirks and what not ofcourse.

My GM insists that Alter Self i unable to mimic a persons form completely and i believe that you can.

Am i way off base here? Or is the spell easy to interpret in both ways?