Just think about it for a few minutes... Even if just for the use of Spell-striking Frostbite or Shocking Grasp, how awesome 'eh? Plus you can throw on Wand-wielder, or the sudden Empower Arcanas, or get Swashbuckler deeds... I just... wanna try this!
Honestly, I would categorize it as a poor choice. Bloodragers simply don't get enough spells to make it worthwhile, and too many arcana are based around Int(a dump stat), spell combat (which the VMC doesnt provide), or single weapon use(inferior combat style). For example, you mention Wand-wielder, which does literally nothing for a VMC magus.
Dur, I dunno what I was thinking with Wand Wielder.
Still, being able to spell-strike your Rimed Frostbite through your Reach weapon and having a GREAT chance to hit your enemies makes you a much better lock-down character than the Magus would be, the to-hit difference is huge.
It's decidedly... "okay". If you can cast the Frostbite right after you rage as you move in, cool, but it's probably not worth a combat action.
A Magus tends to cover the whole "hit things" through either an arcana via swift action (which can shove the Magus above the Bloodrager without too much trouble, especially at the higher levels) or through sheer volume of swings (which a Bloodrager just can't match on his own).
I did put together a Bloodrager VMC Cavalier that looks awesome on paper. Haven't had a chance to try her out though, but a Bloodrager with an active Challenge? Nasty.
I don't know that I agree about the Magus arcana pushing the to hit values above a bloodrager, but regardless of that there doesn't seem to be much use out of the VMC Magus for a bloodrager. I'm just not seeing any arcana's that would work exceptionally well for him.
ALL VMC Magus gets is spell strike and arcanas. The bloodrager has so few precious spells, damaging spells probably aren't that worth it and can't be used every round. Personally, I found the most effective way to use spells as a bloodrager was almost exclusively to self buff with an occasional spell use for other things. But hell, when you're 10th level and only have 4 spells per day total...you can't go very hard on spell usage.
Claxon wrote: I don't know that I agree about the Magus arcana pushing the to hit values above a bloodrager Barring crazy-high Ints to really make Arcane Accuracy shine I'm mostly thinking of Accurate Strike there. I'll take a +15 targeting Touch AC over a +20 targeting straight AC. There are certainly creatures and classes where targeting Touch isn't a big advantage, but it'll generally be enough to cover that gap, and since Touch AC is generally static to downward scaling as you go up in CRs...
Beyond that piece, what Claxon said. It's an awesome gestalt combination and an awesome thematic combination but the mechanics just don't back it up.
Getting Arcane Pool is actually pretty cool.
If allowed to retrain, getting Accurate Strike the same level a Magus does is very solid, and grabbing Bane Blade at level 15 is cool as well.
Besides which, Bloodragers don't need a whole lot of Feats, so it's a smaller price to pay for them than a lot of Classes. Spellstrike is mediocre for a Bloodrager, but some of the other stuff is very cool.
I don't believe you can retrain into Accurate Strike at 9th. Don't the retraining rules for class features note that it has to be legal at the level you originally got the feature?
It IS true that Bloodragers don't need many feats though. They're great VMC monkeys; I just don't think that Magus is where they want to go with it.
While it's true Bloodragers don't get many spells, even at moderately low levels they should be able to use magic items (whatever the spontaneous equivalent of a Pearl of Power 1 is - I know it's still cheap) to be able to use a lot of level 1 spells all day long. Furthermore with Frostbite and Chill Touch you cast it once and it's potentially up all-combat long.
The Arcana Pool is a straight-up upgrade, energy damage on the fly or straight bonuses to hit and damage.
Spell-blending if there's a certain spell you REALLY want on your class list (I know, not the best use but it's there).
Empowered/Maximized Magic for either Shocking Grasp or Frostbite.
Hasted Assault.
Bane Blade.
Ghost Blade.
Disruptive.
Devoted Blade.
Arcane Deed/Precise Strike if you feel for some reason like going sword-and-buckler.
Familiar.
There are still some good options.
Is there actually a spontaneous equivalent to pearls of power, though? Because my GM recently let my summoner find a pearl of power by mistake, thinking spontaneous casters could use 'em too, and then when my group started looking around for some equivalent item so it could be retconned that my summoner had found one of those instead, we came up with nothing. We ended up just houseruling PoPs to work for spontaneous casters as well.
Ethereal Gears wrote: Is there actually a spontaneous equivalent to pearls of power, though? Because my GM recently let my summoner find a pearl of power by mistake, thinking spontaneous casters could use 'em too, and then when my group started looking around for some equivalent item so it could be retconned that my summoner had found one of those instead, we came up with nothing. We ended up just houseruling PoPs to work for spontaneous casters as well. Runestones of power.
PapaZorro wrote: While it's true Bloodragers don't get many spells, even at moderately low levels they should be able to use magic items (whatever the spontaneous equivalent of a Pearl of Power 1 is - I know it's still cheap) to be able to use a lot of level 1 spells all day long. Runestone of Power, which is twice as expensive as a Pearl of Power because clearly spontaneous casters are overpowered otherwise.
Problem with the arcana picks laid out is that they're all drawing from the arcane pool... which is going to be tiny.
Spell Blending is weird here; I need to do homework on how/if that works.
Empowered/Maximized are really weak at 1/day. Quicken is at least decent but it's endgame. Still, at least they're free.
Hasted Assault is expensive and Int-based. I wanted it to work but... not without a very generous stat spread.
Bane Blade is endgame level and doubles your point expenditure for buffing your weapon. Same for Ghost Blade. Also true for Devoted Blade, now with 50% more nicheness
Disruptive... trading an open feat slot for a weak feat is a bad trade in my mind.
Bloodragers can get familiars anyway if they really want 'em.
Really my problem with the Arcane Pool for a class like the Bloodrager is that the Bloodrager can't afford to buff his Int. That means his arcane pool is small, which means that after the midpoint (which is where we are if we're talking Devoted/Ghost/Bane Blade) he's no longer able to even use it fully, or he's intentionally leaving his weapon at a lower bonus, which is... silly.
Seems like it's a paper tiger unless you can somehow support having a decent sized Int.
Spell blending does nothing for VMC Magus since a VMC magus cannot cast magus spells of any level, doesnt have a spellbook, and adding to the magus spell list does nothing.
Magus arcana besides the arcane pool expanders really do nothing for bloodragers, and in order to have a useable arcane pool you almost have to expend another feat. Typically, bloodragers are gonna have an int modifier of 0 at the most, more commonly -1. So basically, you get 1 arcane pool point until level 6. A bloodrager VMC magus is almost certainly better built as a pure magus, or an eldritch scion.
VMC Magus is more useful for eldritch knight builds.
Blood conduit already gives you most of the benefit of a magus variant multiclass without taking away five feats. I don't really see the point.
VMC Magus is also hilarious for Unchained Rogues:
-As a Dex-based class with no required mental stats, the Rogue can easily pick up a second primary stat and buff up their Int.
-Access to Arcane Deed for Precise Strike is very strong on a Dex-based class, and lets the Rogue be competitive offensively without going for TWF (to-hit problems) or THF (may or may not work with their Dexterity setup)
-The Arcane Pool is an accuracy buffer on a class whose only native accuracy buff occurs after they hit you. That's a pretty big deal.
-The Rogue is relatively feat-lite and can pick up a few early combat feats with Talents if need be, so they're not crippled by the five-feat loss.
-No native requirements for a swift action makes supporting most of the Magus arcanas very easy.
Spellstrike is dead for them, of course, but the rest is awesome.
kestral287 wrote: I don't believe you can retrain into Accurate Strike at 9th. Don't the retraining rules for class features note that it has to be legal at the level you originally got the feature? They don't, you're free to retrain a feat to any other feat you qualify at your level so long as the old feat was not used as a prerequisite. :)
FAQ on the topic can be found here.
Kudaku wrote: kestral287 wrote: I don't believe you can retrain into Accurate Strike at 9th. Don't the retraining rules for class features note that it has to be legal at the level you originally got the feature? They don't, you're free to retrain a feat to any other feat you qualify at your level so long as the old feat was not used as a prerequisite. :)
FAQ on the topic can be found here. That's for feats, not class features.
Found what I was looking for:
Retraining wrote: Retraining a class feature means you lose the old class feature and gain a new one that you could otherwise qualify for at that point in your level advancement. For example, if you want to retrain your paladin's fatigued mercy (which she gained at 3rd level), you can replace it only with another mercy from the 3rd-level list. If at 6th level you learned the sickened mercy (which is on the 3rd-level list), you may replace it with a mercy from the 3rd- or 6th-level list (because you are replacing a 6th-level mercy slot which you spent on a 3rd-level mercy). So no getting Accurate Strike until the end game, barring taking Extra Arcana.
Why not just this?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus -archetypes/eldritch-scion
Kyrrion wrote: Why not just this?
link
Because, loath as I am to hate, it's really bad.
I've wanted a spontaneous Chamagus for a long time. Still hoping for one. ^_^
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Not sure what makes you think the Bloodrager would have to have such a low Int, they just need high strength, a 12 charisma, and a little dex and a little con, they can afford to have an ok intelligence.
Even so, Wyroot Fauchard, learn it, live it, love it.
Empowered/Maximized arcana's have their niche when you get higher levels and can start storing beefed up spells in your spell-storing weapons via this.
And at 2,000 GP a pop, a level 1 Runestone of Power is still pretty cheap even at lowish levels.
PapaZorro wrote: Not sure what makes you think the Bloodrager would have to have such a low Int, they just need high strength, a 12 charisma, and a little dex and a little con, they can afford to have an ok intelligence. More than "a little" Con really, and if you plan to make serious use of Spellstrike you'll want enough Cha for a couple bonus spells; I would try to start 14 personally, though I can see the case for 12. Dex is debatable and build-variable, but a reach build was called out, means you probably want 14ish.
So... as much Str as you reasonably can, 14ish Dex, 14-16 Con, 12 Cha... not much room for Int in there. They can probably stay at ten, but going up from there? I'd want to see the stat spread.
PapaZorro wrote: Even so, Wyroot Fauchard, learn it, live it, love it. Works as long as you don't draw on the Pool too heavily. But Wyroot is not going to cover you in sustained combats if you try to use your pool like a Magus does.
PapaZorro wrote: Empowered/Maximized arcana's have their niche when you get higher levels and can start storing beefed up spells in your spell-storing weapons via this. Still only a 1/day thing.
You're probably using them on an Intensified Grasp. That means the Empowered is worth 5D6=17.5 damage per day and the Maximized is worth 25 damage per day.
Given their level requirements that's kind of pathetic, and Intensified Grasp is one of the better uses for them that a Bloodrager has.
PapaZorro wrote: And at 2,000 GP a pop, a level 1 Runestone of Power is still pretty cheap even at lowish levels. It is. It just irritates me that it costs twice what Pearls do.
You should also verify with your GM whether or not it needs to be held in hand at the time of casting. I've seen that one argued.
PapaZorro wrote: Not sure what makes you think the Bloodrager would have to have such a low Int, they just need high strength, a 12 charisma, and a little dex and a little con, they can afford to have an ok intelligence.
Even so, Wyroot Fauchard, learn it, live it, love it.
Empowered/Maximized arcana's have their niche when you get higher levels and can start storing beefed up spells in your spell-storing weapons via this.
And at 2,000 GP a pop, a level 1 Runestone of Power is still pretty cheap even at lowish levels.
Int is least important stat for bloodragers, who are MAD as can be. Str is primary. Dex, Con, and Cha are all secondary (12-14 each minimum). Wisdom is tertiary, cause will saves. And then int, which is the first and only dump stat available for bloodragers.
Runestones dont really become affordable in any quantity until level 9 (where they are still 5% of your WBL each). They are effectively 2 levels higher in cost pearls of power. (WBL about doubles every 2 levels, runestones cost twice pearls.)
Wyroot only works on polearms, so to get the fauchard your burning another feat and locked into a reach build, which can be somewhat feat intensive to begin with, requires 13 int, and even more dex to be useful. Plus, you know, I like my crits to kill things instead of giving me 1 pool point.
Empowered/Maximized you are better off just getting lesser rods if all you want to do is store them with spell-storing.
Reach doesn't really require 13 Int. One of its advantages is to be able to do things like trip without needing the silly feats.
Spot on beyond that point though.
kestral287 wrote: Reach doesn't really require 13 Int. One of its advantages is to be able to do things like trip without needing the silly feats.
Spot on beyond that point though.
I guess if you dont want greater trip, which is one of the whole point of trip/reach builds to me. I havent had much experience with them though, so Ill defer to you on that.
Do you know the joy of having multiple spell-storing weapons that have Maximized (arcana), Empowered (arcana), Intensified (feat/trait-lowering), Dazing/Piercing/Bouncing/whatevering (rod) shocking grasp? So... beautiful....
Then to have multiples of them.... *drool*
Anywho, I do think the Rogue with Magus VMC option sounds kinda fantastic actually, pretty good idea I must say.
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kestral287 wrote: VMC Magus is also hilarious for Unchained Rogues:
-As a Dex-based class with no required mental stats, the Rogue can easily pick up a second primary stat and buff up their Int.
-Access to Arcane Deed for Precise Strike is very strong on a Dex-based class, and lets the Rogue be competitive offensively without going for TWF (to-hit problems) or THF (may or may not work with their Dexterity setup)
-The Arcane Pool is an accuracy buffer on a class whose only native accuracy buff occurs after they hit you. That's a pretty big deal.
-The Rogue is relatively feat-lite and can pick up a few early combat feats with Talents if need be, so they're not crippled by the five-feat loss.
-No native requirements for a swift action makes supporting most of the Magus arcanas very easy.
Spellstrike is dead for them, of course, but the rest is awesome.
If I was the GM, I'd totally let that rogue Spellstrike with the spell-like abilities that they get through Minor Magic and Major Magic.
I'd hope most GM's would allow the Rogue to, it would be actually useful.
It would actually be really cool for that Eldritch Delver I've been meaning to play. ^_^
Ventnor wrote: kestral287 wrote: VMC Magus is also hilarious for Unchained Rogues:
-As a Dex-based class with no required mental stats, the Rogue can easily pick up a second primary stat and buff up their Int.
-Access to Arcane Deed for Precise Strike is very strong on a Dex-based class, and lets the Rogue be competitive offensively without going for TWF (to-hit problems) or THF (may or may not work with their Dexterity setup)
-The Arcane Pool is an accuracy buffer on a class whose only native accuracy buff occurs after they hit you. That's a pretty big deal.
-The Rogue is relatively feat-lite and can pick up a few early combat feats with Talents if need be, so they're not crippled by the five-feat loss.
-No native requirements for a swift action makes supporting most of the Magus arcanas very easy.
Spellstrike is dead for them, of course, but the rest is awesome.
If I was the GM, I'd totally let that rogue Spellstrike with the spell-like abilities that they get through Minor Magic and Major Magic. ... Yanno, now that you've said that?
I'm not sure that it wouldn't work anyway. I need to do some digging on the topic, but it's an interesting thought.
PapaZorro wrote: Do you know the joy of having multiple spell-storing weapons that have Maximized (arcana), Empowered (arcana), Intensified (feat/trait-lowering), Dazing/Piercing/Bouncing/whatevering (rod) shocking grasp? So... beautiful....
Then to have multiples of them.... *drool*
Anywho, I do think the Rogue with Magus VMC option sounds kinda fantastic actually, pretty good idea I must say.
The Rod thing actually doesn't work (or at least isn't intended to work, dev post and all that).
But the problem is, you're not getting multiples of those. You get one per day. You could spend a week charging half a dozen different weapons, if you really wanted to (though that makes me question why you have half a dozen +2 weapons sitting around), but during an active adventuring period it's not going to work.
Imbicatus wrote: Blood conduit already gives you most of the benefit of a magus variant multiclass without taking away five feats. I don't really see the point. Actually, how would that work out if you stacked them?
You cast a touch spell, get a free attack, punch someone, get a swift action to cast a spell and punch them again?
There's no "punch them again"; Blood Conduit specifically calls out that it applies the spell to the combat maneuver check/unarmed strike.
But yes, it would be a relatively efficient way to Quicken spells. You do have to use it with unarmed strikes though, as Spellstrike is keyed to melee attacks, and maneuvers (the useful ones at least) are specifically "in place of a melee attack".
Of course you can do that maybe two or three times a day before you're out of spells.
You could also use the arcana you get to grab pool strike and use your first spellstrike with that, tho that is really more like a novelty thing at that point.
LoneKnave wrote: It's why you've got runes of power to stack up on. Which, given the incredibly low Cha being advocated to support the Int needed to VMC Magus, is where the "or three" comes from in "two or three times per day".
12 Cha Bloodrager at level 11 gets that trick off twice with one spell slot to spare. He could bring his Cha up with items, but that's money not being spent on stuff like Runes-- or it's more spell slots to spend on things like Greater Bloodrage, which he gets at the same time as Spellstrike.
At mid levels I can see them having quite a few level 1 runestones, combining this with the Blood Conduit just seems like an insane nova ability.
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