|
Another scenario that makes me chuckle.
Anzyrs wizard is in the bar with his friends, relaxing after another adventure. An explosion from upstairs destroys half the building, killing civilians all over the place. Turns out a thief git in and triggered the runes by mistake, destroying all the gear the players left upstairs and having to explain why such dangerous things were in the town to start with.
DM's mess with that stuff both within the rules and within the context of a campaign easily.
Mind you, that plan is something that should work occasionally as well. It's a pretty well thought out concept, so why not.
WHY ARE WIZARDS LEAVING THEIR EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE EXTRADIMENSIONAL SPACE GENERATING MAGIC ITEMS IN A RANDOM INN ROOM. THAT WIZARD IS AN IDIOT, INT SCORE BE DAMNED.
Also, explosive runes is a 10ft radius blast. The aftermath of a runes bomb would look more like a the hole made in structures by that time travel device in the terminator movies.
I guess a thief could pickpocket the wizard, but AFAIK worst case is that the thief would trigger a single rune and destroy the whole bomb. 6d6 is not that bad for a mid level wizard (might suck for a level 2 rogue though). Making the bomb package something too big to count as a "small object" for the purpose of sleight of hand also counteracts this nicely.
Meh, it was just me riffing ideas, especially stupid ones at that.
If players want to keep trying this stuff, then GMs will do sneaky things to get rid of the tactic. Although, as I said, it's not a bad tactic so letting it happen occasionally should be fine. Depends on your game.
I completely forgot I posted this here. Apologies all!
Also, thank you to those who left constructive suggestions. I've added several of them to the guide I put together.
Lastly, I'm seeing a LOT of people who feel very passionately on the topic. I've also noticed something that a lot of us as players do, which is simply suggest using a spell or ability you don't get until you're level 10 or 15 and declaring the discussion over. Ideally I'd like players of all experience levels to be able to find something usable here. Whether you're a level 1 fighter whose DM is a little too fond of distance casters, or you're gearing up for that end-of-campaign fight, you need to bring all the tricks you've got.
And, as always, no matter how clever our tricks are there is ALWAYS a counter to them. That's why just because something works once, twice, or even three times, you'll have to switch strategies when the bad guys start preparing for what you can do. The more options in your bag of tricks, the better off you'll be!
I note you still haven't added the 'Ready an action to attack the caster when he casts a spell' which is reasonably effective (if situational) and available to level 1 fighters.
I'm surprised you recommend thunderstones. If the thrower has a 5% chance of missing, the caster has a 35% chance of making the save, and then an 80% chance of casting successfully even if they fail, then the cumulative chance of stopping them casting a spell is 95%*65%*20%= 12.35%. I.e. under the best reasonable circumstances you have less than 1 chance in 8 of success. That's terrible!
I'm still trying to figure out how the Barbarian got back from being Mazed and survived the 1000+ No Save Force damage when they got back. Can someone explain this to me?
Spell sunder the maze, and Diehard makes the damage irrelevant.
Diehard says when you fall below 0 hp you automatically stabilize, which means you where never Dying and thus you don't have the Stable condition either. You stop using the Diehard feat as to not be Staggered.
Granted, you are dead, but that basically just gives you immunity to some of the wizards' spells.
I have seen an NPC use Oracle revelation Surprising Charge to interrupt spell casters twice in one fight. And it was in an AP, so not even a case of GM going out of their way to shut down casters.
Once per day, you can move up to your speed as an immediate action. You can use this ability one additional time per day at 7th level and 15th level.
|
|
I built a Dwarven fighter that always got into the casters face when he could. Step up feats and his amazing ability to just shrug off AoOs on the way to a caster made them suffer pretty heavily.
However, disrupting PC spells is a little more difficult, and more importantly, can be very frustrating for your players.
Doing so occasionally is perfectly fine, it makes the players think on their toes. Doing it regularly though is a recipe of player frustration or worse a loss,of enjoyment for the game.
The best tactic I've used in making casters less devastating is to split attacks from multiple angles and over multiple rounds. It really makes casters ask what to do and where to do it. That way you're not shutting them down, but you are restricting their impact to only some parts of the battle.
|
However, disrupting PC spells is a little more difficult, and more importantly, can be very frustrating for your players.
Doing so occasionally is perfectly fine, it makes the players think on their toes. Doing it regularly though is a recipe of player frustration or worse a loss, of enjoyment for the game.
This is actually the biggest problem that I've seen with shutting down casting. With shutting down any tactic, to be honest. If a GM takes actions to specifically counter a player's ability to "do their thing," it can lead to that player feeling like they are being targeted.
It can be interesting to force a player to come up with new tactics by utilizing environmental factors, inconvenient enemy placement, or NPCs that can simply counteract PC abilities. But when suddenly every NPC is a monk with Catch Arrows with a high touch AC and ability to invalidate a ranged attack, it can lead to that gunslinger feeling marginalized.
Ditto casters. If suddenly everyone has insane saves, SR, Disruptive and the Step Up feat chain, it isn't so much a solution to a strong caster as it is a destruction of a player's playstyle. I feel like it's an in-game problem that should be addressed out of game by asking the player to tone it down to let other players shine.
It can be interesting to force a player to come up with new tactics by utilizing environmental factors, inconvenient enemy placement, or NPCs that can simply counteract PC abilities. But when suddenly every NPC is a monk with Catch Arrows with a high touch AC and ability to invalidate a ranged attack, it can lead to that gunslinger feeling marginalized.
What makes this even worse is that there are often effective tactics that can be taken but it isn't clear to the enemies that these actions *should* be taken before it is too late unless the GM is metagaming.
Lets take a PC just behind the front lines. No weapon drawn. No armor. Fairly weak looking
Some possible things that PC could be:
1. Geisha Bard
2. Dex Monk
3. Cha to everything Oracle
4. Kitsune Enchanter
Correct reactions to these are as follows
1. Not much of an issue. Get in it's face if you can but this isn't critical The damage it does it mostly did several minutes ago when it spammed buffs on the party
2. Hide behind the monk's allies to block charge lanes and screw up pummeling charge. Doing so makes the monk sacrifice a full attack
3. Varies wildly depending on build. This one is a toss up.
4. Kill it. Kill it with fire. Or at least gum it up and mix in with the PCs so the encounter can't get nuked into orbit by a DCLOLNO persistent confusion. At least charm monster/dominate person is single target.
How do the enemies know which action to take? They don't. They might figure it is a caster and try to hit it if they can, and maybe ready an action, but they usually have no way of knowing if a) the caster isn't a big deal if they survive long enough to get into a melee, or b) the caster is so dangerous that it warrants a suicide charge past an enlarged lore warden tripper because if the caster gets half a chance to act they just lose.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I clicked on the thread because I've read a few of Neal's guides and thought they were fun reads. Then I see the thread take a detour in a very entertaininging fashion. Now after reading everything I am glad I left Pathfinder for other systems as players like Anzyr ruin fun by being just creative enough get a broken combo but not creative enough to do anything else. If I ever play PF at any public events and this explosive rune trick starts to surface I'm just going to leave out of disgust because I may be playing with Anzyr.
I still like the good ol' fashioned Tetori.
You're grappled. *Ki point* and FoM doesn't work *Ki point* Also teleportation.
Whether you're a player or a DM sooner or later a caster is going to give you trouble. Clerics and wizards, sorcerers and bards, orcales, arcanists, and magi, oh my!
Nothing is more frustrating then being steam-rolled by a magic user. So the next time you're looking down the barrel of one of these big guns, stick a carrot in it and see what happens!
As always, though it's mentioned in the guide it bears repeating, there is a counter to EVERYTHING. So if you're going to go after a magic user it pays to know as much about them as you can in order to have the best possible strategy.
Best way to shutdown casters is to not shut them down. Give them every opportunity you can burn spells, let them feel god like. Eventually the run low on spells. Then you hit them. This works a couple of times then they get cautious with spell use, saving up spells just in case. Suddenly the game plays much better as magic is no in check.
I agree completely there, Thunderstones are at best sub-optimal and at worst completely useless, and really not much good past level 1.
If you're looking for an alchemical remedy for spellcasters, a smoke pellet dropped in your own square or a smokestick is better than a thunderstone. At least it'll block Line of Sight spells.
The wonderful thing about threads like this and others is when people point out all these grey area and/or broken spell combinations I can add to my list of "things to edit or remove in our game."
And you told me that I'd never be able to get through all the spells! :)
The wonderful thing about threads like this and others is when people point out all these grey area and/or broken spell combinations I can add to my list of "things to edit or remove in our game."
And you told me that I'd never be able to get through all the spells! :)
Not before you switch over to me, you won't. It's half the reason I'm inevitable.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
BARBARIAN ALSO SAY BARBARIAN ALREADY DO ALL THINGS ALWAYS WITHOUT LOGICAL FALLACIES.
AM ACTUALLY SMASHING CASTY ROUND BEFORE UNITIATIVE ROLL VIA SPELL SUNDER MAZE, THEN FACE. THAT AM HOW BARBARIAN ROLLS. REALLY CASTY MISTAKES REGARDING BARBARIAN FUNCTIONS AM SUPER NUMEROUS, AM LIKE STARS IN SKY. TACTIC AM WORKING BECAUSE BARBARIAN WORKING, AND EVERYONE KNOW MANY OTHERS BEFORE AM TRYING STEP WITH BARBARIAN, AM NOT ABLE STEP LIKE BARBARIAN. SCORE AM WHAT, ELEVENTY BILLION TO POINT FIVE?
SILLY CASTY. BARBARIAN AM ALWAYS WINNER.
Not before you switch over to me, you won't. It's half the reason I'm inevitable.The wonderful thing about threads like this and others is when people point out all these grey area and/or broken spell combinations I can add to my list of "things to edit or remove in our game."
And you told me that I'd never be able to get through all the spells! :)
...AM YOU ALLOWING BARBARIAN?
IF NOT, BARBARIAN SUNDER 2.0.
Not before you switch over to me, you won't. It's half the reason I'm inevitable.The wonderful thing about threads like this and others is when people point out all these grey area and/or broken spell combinations I can add to my list of "things to edit or remove in our game."
And you told me that I'd never be able to get through all the spells! :)
...AM YOU ALLOWING BARBARIAN?
IF NOT, BARBARIAN SUNDER 2.0.
Your playtest just launched. We'll see.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Your playtest just launched. We'll see.
GOOD. LET BARBARIAN KNOW. AM NOT LIKING UNCHAINED STUFF ALL THAT MUCH, BARBARIAN MUCH PREFER CHAINS. AM ABLE TO USE CHAINS FOR SMASH, AM GETTING LIKE 10FT RANGE ON CHAINS.
KRATOS GUY CALLED WHEN BARBARIAN START USING, ASKING FOR MONEY. BARBARIAN MAKE SAVE VS LAWSUIT, THO, SO CHAINS AM STAYING. BARBARIAN AM MAKING ALL SAVES, ALWAYS.
Not before you switch over to me, you won't. It's half the reason I'm inevitable.The wonderful thing about threads like this and others is when people point out all these grey area and/or broken spell combinations I can add to my list of "things to edit or remove in our game."
And you told me that I'd never be able to get through all the spells! :)
Maybe, maybe not. Mostly I keep the list updated and the links active so when people ask "Why can't I use X?" I can point to the threads and they'll understand completely.
Just because something is broken or wonky doesn't mean you have to use it.
Not before you switch over to me, you won't. It's half the reason I'm inevitable.The wonderful thing about threads like this and others is when people point out all these grey area and/or broken spell combinations I can add to my list of "things to edit or remove in our game."
And you told me that I'd never be able to get through all the spells! :)
Maybe, maybe not. Mostly I keep the list updated and the links active so when people ask "Why can't I use X?" I can point to the threads and they'll understand completely.
Just because something is broken or wonky doesn't mean you have to use it.
There's literally to much stuff that is baked into the game that makes spells to powerful and martials to weak. As this very thread shows, the means of shutting down a caster amounts to "try something and hope the caster didn't make themselves immune to that".
ALTERNATIVELY, ROLL BARBARIAN.