This is more of an idle pondering at this point, but I'm interested in what people think.
I have a player who's interested in the Summoner, but has absolutely zero interest in the Summons SLA. I call this a good thing.
As a result I've been tempted to offer to let him exchange the SLAs outright for more evolution points. The question I'm grappling with is the exchange rate therein.
Simplest option would be to trade it for one point, +1 whenever the SLA would go up a level. Cap at +10 when the SLA gets Gate.
However, that seems like a lot. So I'm tempted to halve it.
On the other hand, with the Unchained Summoner (which I'm mandating) there's hard caps in place on how much brutality you can do with your points.
So... I'm uncertain, and soliciting opinions. What exchange rate would you allow? Or would you not allow this at all?
If they are not doing Synthesist (which I don't think there is a need to replace them, as Synthesist is powerful enough as is), then what about the extra Evolutions being on THEMSELVES, instead of the Eidolon?
I doubt he'd go Synthesist. If he does though, cool.
Why would you be more willing to allow self-evolution than more Eidolon evolutions, out of curiosity?
Well, the thing to keep in mind with the SLA is that there are two interesting design points about it.
The first is that its available only when the Eidolon is not out. For this reason alone, I'm very reluctant to recommend any change that takes an ability that they can't use while the eidolon is out, and turns it into an ability that is used when the eidolon is out. The only type of change I would recommend that works when the eidolon is out is one that's very weak, and then having another ability that works when the eidolon is away, one that fits his theme better (and is weaker than the SLA).
The second thing is that the purpose of the SLA is partially for a backup plan. If the eidolon goes down, the SLA is always there for the summoner to rely on until the beginning of the next day, when the eidolon comes back.
Adding more evolution points violates both of these ideas, so I don't think it's the best approach.
Do you know any other details on the player's envisioned character?
I agree with Cheapy, but if you proceed, alternate between +1 evo point and one evo point becomes flexible. So by the end of the career, they have +5 evo points that are reassigned daily.
Or, better, give a healing ability or something that can keep the Eidolon alive. Various contingencies that work out to the power of a summoned critter.
Cheapy wrote: Well, the thing to keep in mind with the SLA is that there are two interesting design points about it.
The first is that its available only when the Eidolon is not out. For this reason alone, I'm very reluctant to recommend any change that takes an ability that they can't use while the eidolon is out, and turns it into an ability that is used when the eidolon is out. The only type of change I would recommend that works when the eidolon is out is one that's very weak, and then having another ability that works when the eidolon is away, one that fits his theme better (and is weaker than the SLA).
The second thing is that the purpose of the SLA is partially for a backup plan. If the eidolon goes down, the SLA is always there for the summoner to rely on until the beginning of the next day, when the eidolon comes back.
Adding more evolution points violates both of these ideas, so I don't think it's the best approach.
Do you know any other details on the player's envisioned character?
I'm not sure if he has the details on said character yet. This is more of the "that looks like fun" phase than the design phase.
The violation of both of those points is actually why it tempts me. Something that violated only one point, I would not be okay with, I don't think-- if it makes his character stronger at all times that's not okay, but weaker at all times is probably not okay either.
But "your plan A is better; you now have no plan B" seems like it could make things interesting.
I do see your concern though, and it's worth pondering.
Trade it out for the conjuration abilities of the wizard specialist. Make it only work if the eidolon is Mia.
My suggestion is to have the player use the spirit summoner archetype. It replaces the summon monster abilities with additional spells, hexes, and a minor buff to the eidolon.
Matrix Dragon wrote: My suggestion is to have the player use the spirit summoner archetype. It replaces the summon monster abilities with additional spells, hexes, and a minor buff to the eidolon. Hm. I must be missing something... how is Spirit Summoner buffing the eidolon?
He might like it due to having some more flexibility with spells, but it looks like the Eidolon is strictly worse off due to losing Maker's Call/Transposition.
Don't get me wrong, I like the archetype and it's definitely an option, but... doesn't seem like quite what I'm hunting for.
The Terrible Zodin wrote: Trade it out for the conjuration abilities of the wizard specialist. Make it only work if the eidolon is Mia. Doesn't really work all that well, since the entire point here is that the player doesn't like actually summoning things that aren't his eidolon. And that's half of what the Conjuration school does (that and fling acid at people, but Acid Dart is basically useless).
kestral287 wrote: Matrix Dragon wrote: My suggestion is to have the player use the spirit summoner archetype. It replaces the summon monster abilities with additional spells, hexes, and a minor buff to the eidolon. Hm. I must be missing something... how is Spirit Summoner buffing the eidolon?
He might like it due to having some more flexibility with spells, but it looks like the Eidolon is strictly worse off due to losing Maker's Call/Transposition.
Don't get me wrong, I like the archetype and it's definitely an option, but... doesn't seem like quite what I'm hunting for.
The eidolon gains the spirit ability that the shaman spirit would gain. For example, a life eidolon gains fast healing 1, a fire eidolon gains immunity to fire, a battle eidolon gains +2 natural armor.
Edit: In addition, the hexes, spells, and spirit abilities that the summoner gets are really good for supporting the eidolon. Depending on what spirit the summoner chooses he could gain Channel Energy, an several round/day attack/damage buff for the party, or the ability to add Fireball to his spells known.
Does your player want to wreck face with his eidolon buddy (riding it or flanking with it or stuff like that) or does he want to stand back and support it? If the latter, I'd trade it for channel energy.
Matrix Dragon wrote: kestral287 wrote: Matrix Dragon wrote: My suggestion is to have the player use the spirit summoner archetype. It replaces the summon monster abilities with additional spells, hexes, and a minor buff to the eidolon. Hm. I must be missing something... how is Spirit Summoner buffing the eidolon?
He might like it due to having some more flexibility with spells, but it looks like the Eidolon is strictly worse off due to losing Maker's Call/Transposition.
Don't get me wrong, I like the archetype and it's definitely an option, but... doesn't seem like quite what I'm hunting for.
The eidolon gains the spirit ability that the shaman spirit would gain. For example, a life eidolon gains fast healing 1, a fire eidolon gains immunity to fire, a battle eidolon gains +2 natural armor.
Edit: In addition, the hexes, spells, and spirit abilities that the summoner gets are really good for supporting the eidolon. Depending on what spirit the summoner chooses he could gain Channel Energy, an several round/day attack/damage buff for the party, or the ability to add Fireball to his spells known. Knowing him, it'd be Fireball.
That said, d20pfsrd must be missing part of that archetype, as it says nothing about the spirit animal's ability.
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Another option would be to give him a second eidolon. He can only have 1 eidolon at a time, and it may have to be a different type (angel, demon, azata, etc.) from his first eidolon. If desired, he may gain additional eidolons every 3rd summon monster ability:
1 at level 1,
2 at level 5,
3 at level 11,
4 at level 17
This would give him an assortment of special creatures to call upon depending on the situation.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
kestral287 wrote: This is more of an idle pondering at this point, but I'm interested in what people think.
I have a player who's interested in the Summoner, but has absolutely zero interest in the Summons SLA. I call this a good thing.
If he's using his Eidolon, he's already gotten all the trade-in that merits from the SLA's.
If a 18th level Wizard says he's not using his first level spells, are you going to give him extra 9ths?
kestral287 wrote: Matrix Dragon wrote: kestral287 wrote: Matrix Dragon wrote: My suggestion is to have the player use the spirit summoner archetype. It replaces the summon monster abilities with additional spells, hexes, and a minor buff to the eidolon. Hm. I must be missing something... how is Spirit Summoner buffing the eidolon?
He might like it due to having some more flexibility with spells, but it looks like the Eidolon is strictly worse off due to losing Maker's Call/Transposition.
Don't get me wrong, I like the archetype and it's definitely an option, but... doesn't seem like quite what I'm hunting for.
The eidolon gains the spirit ability that the shaman spirit would gain. For example, a life eidolon gains fast healing 1, a fire eidolon gains immunity to fire, a battle eidolon gains +2 natural armor.
Edit: In addition, the hexes, spells, and spirit abilities that the summoner gets are really good for supporting the eidolon. Depending on what spirit the summoner chooses he could gain Channel Energy, an several round/day attack/damage buff for the party, or the ability to add Fireball to his spells known. Knowing him, it'd be Fireball.
That said, d20pfsrd must be missing part of that archetype, as it says nothing about the spirit animal's ability. *rereads it*
Huh, I actually I think I was mistaken. I could have sworn that the eidolon gained the spirit ability, but I can't find it now. Sorry XD
Oh well, he can still get fireball though ;)
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You may want to consider handing out an Eidolon Anchoring Harness as a magic item at the earliest opportunity. That item enables an eidolon to avoid being dismissed or banished by expending its summoner's uses of the Summon Monster SLA.
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Raisse wrote: Another option would be to give him a second eidolon. He can only have 1 eidolon at a time, and it may have to be a different type (angel, demon, azata, etc.) from his first eidolon. If desired, he may gain additional eidolons every 3rd summon monster ability:
1 at level 1,
2 at level 5,
3 at level 11,
4 at level 17
This would give him an assortment of special creatures to call upon depending on the situation.
That's... actually a very interesting idea. I'll have to ponder how to work that one.
Matrix Dragon wrote: *rereads it*
Huh, I actually I think I was mistaken. I could have sworn that the eidolon gained the spirit ability, but I can't find it now. Sorry XD
Oh well, he can still get fireball though ;)
Happens to the best of us. ^.^
David knott 242 wrote: You may want to consider handing out an Eidolon Anchoring Harness as a magic item at the earliest opportunity. That item enables an eidolon to avoid being dismissed or banished by expending its summoner's uses of the Summon Monster SLA. Worth considering, but I was looking for a more... permanent solution.
LazarX wrote: kestral287 wrote: This is more of an idle pondering at this point, but I'm interested in what people think.
I have a player who's interested in the Summoner, but has absolutely zero interest in the Summons SLA. I call this a good thing.
If he's using his Eidolon, he's already gotten all the trade-in that merits from the SLA's.
If a 18th level Wizard says he's not using his first level spells, are you going to give him extra 9ths? Nope.
But here's for a comparison that might actually be accurate.
If an 18th level Wizard says he's not going to use his 9th-level spells, I'll let him have extra 8th level spells.
See, it's a generally accepted principle* that, past the first few levels, the Eidolon is relegated to the B Team. We could debate about where this kicks in all day. Personally, I call it level 5/Summon Monster III.
This is a lot of why you saw so much Eidolon Cheese: you almost had to, because otherwise what the heck were you doing? You were clearly better off spamming out some Elementals or Lantern Archons or the like.
So, if somebody is intentionally going to gimp himself to play the character he wants to play, I see no reason not to help him leverage his assets. I see no reason to sit him down and say "Hey, that really powerful ability you're not using? It's sucking up half your levels' class features, and you'd be strictly better off using it than the thing you want to use. Have fun with the B Team!"
Why should I do that? If he's not going to use the A Team, why should I saddle him with it in the first place? Is it so wrong, as a GM, to want to help my players have fun?
*You may disagree with that principle. That's fine. Frankly your disagreement is meaningless here unless you're sitting at my table or actually provide a detailed explanation of why that principle is invalid and I should be concerned.
kestral287 wrote: I doubt he'd go Synthesist. If he does though, cool.
Why would you be more willing to allow self-evolution than more Eidolon evolutions, out of curiosity?
Snowball effect. With the reduced Evolutions on the Eidolon specifically, the summoner must take care to which evolutions to apply. The huge evolution (4+6 = 10 point cost) in particular severely limits other evolutions. This forced opportunity cost would be greatly relieved by giving the eidolon more points, but doesn't for the summoner.
The extra Eidolon is a really good idea! I would probably not go past three total, since it is a lot of bookkeeping to level them all up.
QuidEst wrote: The extra Eidolon is a really good idea! I would probably not go past three total, since it is a lot of bookkeeping to level them all up. (Check out the Brood Master archetype... o.o)
Tacticslion wrote: QuidEst wrote: The extra Eidolon is a really good idea! I would probably not go past three total, since it is a lot of bookkeeping to level them all up. (Check out the Brood Master archetype... o.o) That's multiple really weak Eidolons out at one time. This is more like having three Pokeidolmons to choose from.
QuidEst wrote: Tacticslion wrote: QuidEst wrote: The extra Eidolon is a really good idea! I would probably not go past three total, since it is a lot of bookkeeping to level them all up. (Check out the Brood Master archetype... o.o) That's multiple really weak Eidolons out at one time. This is more like having three Pokeidolmons to choose from. Oh, no, I just meant for the bookkeeping. As in, "you think that's bad..." sort of thing.
That said, if you do go with the multiple eidolon thing, even if you never use the Broodmaster Archetype, it'd be worth looking at, just to see how someone else did it (and whether or not you want to follow in their footsteps).
As a very unrelated note, one very interesting game idea I had, but have not yet gotten to use, is a "reverse eidolon progression" eidolon-thing.
Effectively, an eidolon increases at 3/4 the rate of hit dice as their master.
I posited, "What if the reverse was true: the eidolon got (most) all of the master abilities, and grew along the lines of the master, while also retaining their eidolon-specific traits... and it was the master who grew at the lower rate of gain with minimal abilities (such as skill evolutions or whatever)."
While this, at first, sounds overpowered (and in some ways it is), one of the interesting things is that the eidolon, by extension, becomes a very, very fragile "super-power". With the eidolon, the summoner has everything, and without... almost nothing, as, in this variant, even the spells come from the eidolon. If that eidolon gets popped or banished... congratulations! You're now likely dead or running away really, really fast (or the bad guys are taking your prisoner)!
(The inspiration for this, by the way, was watching the show Ah! My Goddess! and thinking of other "magical girlfriend"/"magical boyfriend" shows and how those work, as well as Aladdin and similar. I also thought of giving the genie eidolon a required material focus and access to the wishgranter ifrit-specific sorcerer bloodline, with a way to cast the higher level spells via their Wishcraft ability... and maybe a particular focus that was needed to summon them like an iron or brass bottle or perhaps a worthless old lamp...)
The idea is that the eidolon starts more powerful than the summoner, and only increases in time.
(The "fluff" of the "bargain" made, in this case, is that the gets a very mighty servant, but, that servant's power is actually dependent upon the power of the summoner - perhaps even siphoning the summoner's hypothetical potential somewhat, though the summoner doesn't know this.)
(One of the "nice" side effects of this is that a character actually sort of gains their capstone abilities in a typical level 15 AP, as the character hits 15th-ish level, while the eidolon actually hits 20 HD and full class abilities.)
Anyway, I mention this to explain about how variant ideas could create interesting new spins or takes, and might even work out mechanically.
If you're playing a mixed group, I naturally don't recommend this set-up: it's way too hard to balance around (at present, as I've had no time to fiddle), and the power fluctuation is intense (super-hero to NPC-class for the day in exactly one lucky blow).
Anyway, good gaming! :D
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
kestral287 wrote: *You may disagree with that principle. That's fine. Frankly your disagreement is meaningless here unless you're sitting at my table or actually provide a detailed explanation of why that principle is invalid and I should be concerned. Actually, NONE of us are sitting on your table, so by that logic, you're the only one who should be posting on this thread. Having run a Summoner in PFS from level 1 through retirement, I can unequivicably state that my Eidolon was far from useless in the early levels, yet I made use of BOTH the eidolon and the SLA's depending on situation, or just whim. And since you've opened up this question to the general public, you're going to get answers based on general play, not just on your own home games's idiosyncrasies.
Now your player wants to concentrate on using his Eidolon. That's fine, doing so is by class design already costing him the use of the SLA's, yet the player wants another reward for not using them. I'm of the opinion that the APG Summoners don't have a demonstrated need for such a boost. If you think they need so in your home game, well that's fully right on you. And if it makes your home game better, that's fine. But that doesn't mean it's an answer for general play.
General play answers are largely what you are going to get, for reasons I've stated above. As my general rule though, full casters, which the APG Summoner arguably is, have to argue hard to get a boost out of me, especially when they're also a powerful pet class.
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Quote: Actually, NONE of us are sitting on your table, so by that logic, you're the only one who should be posting on this thread. There's a difference between not sitting at his table and giving ideas/constructive criticism, and not sitting at his table and s+*+ting on his ideas.
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Lazar, the difference is that you simply said "this is bad, mkay" without giving any real options and by making a blatantly false comparison.
Everybody else is being helpful.
They might say my idea is bad (in fact, that's been universally true, it seems nobody is down with just giving the Eidolon more points). But when they do they provide alternative options, and explain the issues they would have with my idea (or piggybacking off somebody who already did).
I'm also not sure why you're talking about the APG Summoner at all. First post I note that I'm mandating the Unchained Summoner. Which also solves much of the "full caster" part.
QuidEst wrote: The extra Eidolon is a really good idea! I would probably not go past three total, since it is a lot of bookkeeping to level them all up. Agreed. The paperwork is the only thing that makes me leery from going for this outright.
Part of me is tempted to go for two Eidolons and each gets a much-more-minor bonus to evolution points (like, +3ish). More building to play with, less flexibility. But that's getting back into the build principles that Cheapy laid out.
Tacticslion wrote: Good Stuff Awesome stuff. Not stuff I'd use here, admittedly, because this is a mixed group. But awesome stuff nonetheless.
Glad you like it! I really didn't think it could be used in a multi-player environment without a lot of pre-work first, but I figured this was a good enough place to mention it. :)
(I also totally lost what I was saying somewhere in the middle. I just blame 4 hours of sleep due to son jumping on me to wake me up. XD)
As far as not liking it, I'm fine with more evolution points, but I'd be in a minority, and I'm not really sure about your table. Since it was already mentioned, I just haven't said much. It's a fine idea, and, as a player of the summoner, GM of the summoner, or player with the summoner, I'd have little problem with it.
Some really great ideas have already been presented. I'll throw out another one! (Well, another idea... don't know if it's "great". :D)
This alternate idea is to grant the Favored Class Bonuses instead of the SLAs.
Most notably, the dwarf, elf, gnome, half-elf, halfling, aasimar (although alter the DR/? as appropriate), fetchling, kobold, (maaaayyybe ratfolk or undine (or even the asterion!)?), and duergar (creatures listed as they are due to the order the suggested ability first appears on the list).
What does that get?
What you Get wrote: Summoning your eidolon takes 1 round less/level (minimum 1 round)
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+1/4 nAC and evolution pool (max +5 each)
+1 hit point and skill point {and saves v. poison?} (max +20 each)
DR 1/<alignment or somthing> (max DR 10/<alignment>)
resist energy (cold, electricity) 1 (max 10)
{+100 ft. to lifelink ability}
Ignore 1 pt of hardness of clay, stone, or metal (max ignore 20)
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+1/4 shield ally bonus (max +2)
Interestingly, this does not invalidate most martials as, by the time you cap out your whatevers, they're going to have equal or better consistently. As I'm less familiar with the Unchained eidolon, I don't know how this would fit in with them, but it seems like, for the most part, this should work.
The other ideas - multiple eidolons, extra evo-points, etc. - are all quite solid, and I'm not rejecting those in favor of this one, but rather giving you one more idea to simmer over, if you like. (Do note, however, that a half-elf can gain up to 5 evolution points automatically, just by being themselves as a summoner. This is worth considering.)
Good gaming!
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