What are my best class options?


Advice


I'm going to be starting a campaign very soon as a "new player" in a group of veterans. I have some experience with CoC and WoD but not D&D, whereas they have been playing D&D since 2nd or 3rd edition.

Our setting is going to be frontier based, using a world they had used characters in (they are rerolling though).
Previously it was an evil campaign with no magic, healing, or deities.
Now there will be magic, flint-lock firearms, and maybe healing (DM hates combat healing).

What I'm looking for is:

1) Fairly simple combat.
I'm not confident in my knowledge of the combat system and want to avoid complex combat maneuvers and additional resources to track (mana/rage/ki/etc...).

2) Frontline.
Most of the other players want caster/healer type classes since they were denied them last campaign. I'd like to be able to distract/cover for them.

3) Somewhat variable.
I like being able to be a combat filler so I can damage or tank. Though I don't expect to do either particularly well.

Through some cursory research I've got some ideas, but I'm not sure how viable they are. So any suggestions of better options to do similar things would be greatly appreciated.

What I'm thinking is:
Human
Primary - Phalanx Soldier
Dip - Weapon Expert (rogue)
Core Gear - Ranseur or Bec de Corbin, Serrated Shield, Medium Armor (chainmail)?

Feat-wise I have too many things I like, but the phalanx concept of keep them at 10ft and using shield slam if they don't tickles me.

Liberty's Edge

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Fighter does have the advantage of not having any pools of stuff to keep track of. It has the disadvantage of sucking at everything but combat. But you're thinking of dipping Rogue, which would theoretically help with that a little (but only a little), I suppose.

Still, I've yet to see a Fighter/Rogue that doesn't do better as a Slayer. Slayers are restricted from wearing heavy armor, but since you weren't planning on that anyway, I'd just go with it.

You'll likely need to adopt a slightly different tactical setup (probably just dropping the shield), but the character will likely be both more effective and more fun.

As for Feats, all melee characters want Power Attack, and all characters with a Reach weapon want Combat Reflexes. So, those are a good place to start.


I agree with DMW, the Slayer is great for new players, very simple to understand, but also very solid and playable even among a group of optimized characters.

"Tank" isn't really a role in Pathfinder; many enemies, especially ones with spellcasting, are going to be able to get around you regardless of what you do, so the best thing to do is make sure you're enough of a threat that they can't ignore you. Easiest way to do this is to get Power Attack with a 2-handed weapon and let the damage roll in.


I hear nothing but good things about rogues (DM's favorite class).
My main concern with them is tactical positioning/choices, for instance I'm still trying to wrap my head around sneak-attacks (I have to strip their DEX+2AC anytime I want to SA?? How do I even...).
I'm just not sure I've got the finesse to pull off a rogue, I'd probably just end up walking right up to the ogre to poke him in the eye instead of creeping through shadows to a backstabbing position (is backstabbing a thing?).

"Tank" isn't the right word, but the first that comes to mind.
I know there is a CFeat that keeps mobs from passing you, and a way to get an AE (30ft?) intimidate using STR mod.
The idea was, "you mobs stand here while my party melts you and I poke at ya, also I made you a little gimp-y"

I'm mainly trying to avoid getting into combat, then annoying 5 other people while I try and figure out what I'm doing for the next 6s every 6s.


Arachnofiend wrote:
"Tank" isn't really a role in Pathfinder

To me, that's more along the lines of battlefield control using combat maneuvers such as trip or sunder. Both can be managed fairly well with a Fighter. Slayer too actually. Just not as many feats but the tradeoff for it is you get way more skill points and better overall saves.

Oh, if you decide to go rogue, see about getting the Unchained version if it's available to you. It's just better than the core rulebook version. Not "broken" better. The Unchained version fixes alot of the shortcomings brought on by time and the evolution of the ruleset that became apparent over the years, thus bringing it back to a similar level with other classes.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I made some NPC fighters that were pretty effective at battlefield control.

Power Attack
Pushing Assault (trade damage bonus from Power Attack to push opponents back 5 feet)
Combat Reflexes
Stand Still (creatures you hit w/ Attack of Opportunity for moving must stop moving)

Basically, you hit opponents and push them back 5 feet. They can't move, and you step back 5 feet. Now, they need to move 10 feet to reach you, and provoke more AoOs. At higher levels, you can combine this with Lunge to hit them when they are 10 feet from you (not with your AoOs, though).

And fighters do have some useful skills, like Knowledge dungeoneering and Survival. You also have enough feats that you can spend one on Additional Traits so you can pick up some additional class skills. Or multiclass into Ranger for more skill points.

Ranger is actually an excellent introductory class for new players. The Slayer is a Ranger/Rogue combo, so it would probably be a fun class for, since it combines a fighting class with skill class and teaches you some rogue stuff, like sneak attack.


I'm working on a Slayer build using the Bounty Hunter archetype, and the dirty trick feat line. Maybe not for beginners, but giving a string of dirty trick combat maneuvers as a full attack action is one way of "tanking".


Verith wrote:
I hear nothing but good things about rogues (DM's favorite class).

Mechanically, prior to the new book that updated the hell out of the Rogue they were actually at the very bottom of the power range. Take that as you will.

Verith wrote:

My main concern with them is tactical positioning/choices, for instance I'm still trying to wrap my head around sneak-attacks (I have to strip their DEX+2AC anytime I want to SA?? How do I even...).

I'm just not sure I've got the finesse to pull off a rogue, I'd probably just end up walking right up to the ogre to poke him in the eye instead of creeping through shadows to a backstabbing position (is backstabbing a thing?).

Backstabbing is basically represented by Sneak Attack itself.

The most common ways to set up Sneak Attack are flanking, feinting, surprise rounds, and invisibility. In order:

-If you are on one side of a creature, and you have an ally on the other side of the creature, you're flanking that creature. You get a +2 bonus to hit it, and you'll do Sneak Attack damage.

-If you feint a creature, it's denied its Dexterity bonus against your next melee attack. However, this requires a lot of investment to pull off well, because feinting is normally really slow. This is best done with the Slayer rather than the Rogue. One of their options is to steal the Ranger's Combat Style, which they can then use to get Achaekek's Favored Combat Style and thus pick up Improved Two-Weapon Feint at level 6. This sounds a bit on the complicated side but it's honestly rather straightforward once you wrap your head around it; if need be we can break down how you set this up and what it does.

-If you get the drop on an enemy, a surprise round occurs. Basically, everyone who knows what's going on in the surprise round gets to make a single action. Until an enemy acts, they're flat-footed (read as: no Dex to AC), and thus vulnerable to Sneak Attack

-If you're Invisible and the target has no means to detect you, you get to do Sneak Attack damage to them. Tricky to set up unless you're a Ninja or a Vivisectionist Alchemist though.

If you are interested in Sneak Attack at all, the Slayer/Two-Weapon Feint route is probably the way to go to keep things simple but effective.

In your original build: what were you looking to get out of the Rogue dip? I'm trying to puzzle that one out and it isn't coming to me.


SmiloDan wrote:
Basically, you hit opponents and push them back 5 feet. They can't move, and you step back 5 feet. Now, they need to move 10 feet to reach you, and provoke more AoOs. At higher levels, you can combine this with Lunge to hit them when they are 10 feet from you (not with your AoOs, though).

This is pretty much what I was imagining, but instead of Pushing Assault using Shield Slam.

Although that then brings up the question if the Two-Weap feats are worth it just for shield use? (Req. for Slam)

kestral287 wrote:
In your original build: what were you looking to get out of the Rogue dip? I'm trying to puzzle that one out and it isn't coming to me.

I honestly had to spend 5min puzzling it out too, heh.

I thought a 3lvl dip in the Weapon Expert arche might be worth it for:
A number of class skills (perception, stealth, UMD, etc..), or rather the bonus for them being class skills.
Weapon Training at lvl 1 instead of 5, which I would lose from Phalanx arche.
Small bonus from Fighter Training mitigates some negative from dipping.
Evasion when wearing medium armor. Which also answers why I put chainmail in as a gear idea.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Depending on the size and makeup of your party, you might be able to have your allies also make AoOs when your opponent provokes them.

But I just remembered most of your allies will be spellcasters. Any of them going to be a reach cleric/bard/inquisitor/druid/summoner/alchemist/etc.?


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If you want to be a big old tank, Barbarians work very well for this. They have the most hits points out of any class, great weapon proficiencies, good armor, and their Rage Powers that you get at every odd level can make them very hard to kill. Intimidating things is also a common theme for them, and they even have abilities that force creatures to attack you (you can also take the Antagonize feat). You can also really push the Diehard feat line, if you want, and just have a stupid amount of HP and never go unconscious. It isn't super effective, but it can be fun if that's your thing.

Cavaliers are also great at tanking, if you become an Order of the Shield cavalier. They get Stand Still for free, and they can put out pretty good damage. They're also very much a party-focused, kind of teamplay-oriented fighter variant, and they get a mount. If you aren't so into the mount, your DM can probably work with you on using an archetype that trades it for something else (Daring Champion, I believe it's called). Alternatively, you can also take the Samurai class, which is an alternate Cavalier that is very tanky and can survive a lot of punishment.

These classes are pretty straightforward, and there aren't a whole lot of moving parts involved. The Barbarian can add in more nifty abilities with Rage Powers, or you can just take things that're passive buffs.


Verith wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:
Basically, you hit opponents and push them back 5 feet. They can't move, and you step back 5 feet. Now, they need to move 10 feet to reach you, and provoke more AoOs. At higher levels, you can combine this with Lunge to hit them when they are 10 feet from you (not with your AoOs, though).
This is pretty much what I was imagining, but instead of Pushing Assault using Shield Slam.

I've toyed with the Super Shield Slammer before. Go with a medium size bloodrager with the aberrant bloodline. You can have 5 feet reach from bloodline, 5 from Long arm Spell and 5 from Enlarge Person. This gives you a nice 20 foot reach for you to spam Shield Slams. You can even slam on your attacks of opportunity creating a deadzone around yourself where your enemies will have trouble entering. Alternatively do this with a dual shields build, to really up the chances of applying the bull rushes on your turn.

The main downside to this build is that it's fairly MAD, although you could go with small shields and a finesse build including Agile Maneuvers. Unfortunately, this doesn't pair as nicely with the strength bonuses from bloodrage.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

And bloodrager also increases your speed, so you can run forward 40 feet (30 feet in medium armor), so you can create a zone of safety between your opponents and your squishy spellcasting allies.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I wouldn't worry about not knowing the combat system. It might seem complicated when you read about it, but you should have it down within the first session. It is a lot easier to understand in game. And with a group of experienced players, it should be very fast.


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What books do you have access too?

As a new player I highly reccomend you DO select a class that has some of those resource features, mana, rage, ki or other x/much of per day abilities. The fact is that nearly every class in the game has at least one expendable resourse and those classes that didnt initally have them have gained them through new options and features as the game grew. Even the basic fighter was very recently buffed by the rules for combat tricks in Pathfinder unchained, which gives the fighter a pool of stamina to work with.

Heres a list of all the basic limited resources that i can remember before unchained (not including the really limited stuff like specific rage powers and feats):
Bardic performance, Rage, Channel energy, Wild shape, Ki, Smite, Bloodline powers, School powers. That accounts for all but three classes in the Core rulebook, not counting spells.
Bombs. Mutagens. Challenge. Judgement. Bane. Revelations. Summon monster. Hexes. Thats every class in Advanced players guide.
Arcane pool for Magi.
Arcane reservoir. Bloodrage. Martial flexibility. Animal focus. Inspiration. Spirit magic and hexes. Raging song. Blessings. Fervor. That accounts for every class except slayer in Qdvanced class guide.

In other words. Every class in the game except four has a defining limited use class ability, still not counting spells.
.

Thats why I reccomend taking a class with a limited-use resource, because they are integral to the system. They are really easy to manage once you get the hang of it. The classes have very different complexity tiers and are easy/hard to mess up in character creation depending on the class. A Barbarian for example is easy to play and very hard to mess up during creation. All you need is con and str, then power attack ,and youre good to go. A fighter however is a little more prone to fall flat if you choose the wrong feat, and classes like Bard and Rouge really struggle without finesse.


@OP,

I think you've got some very solid concepts cooking. I myself was thinking in terms of making a Phalanx Soldier.

For pole weapon choices, my favorites are Lucerne Hammer and Horsechopper. Both are high-damage pole arms. Between them you can have Reach, Brace, Tripping, Slashing, blunt, and piercing. I recommend both weapons. get Alchemal Silver the the 'hammer, get the 'chopper in adamantine.

Get the Quick Draw Feat so you will always have the right tool for the job, but there's another reason. Brace weapons do double damage when your opponents Charge, and it will probably be easier to finesse a charge out of your opponents if they see the pole arms strapped to your back instead of in hand ready to skewer them. Consider getting the Antagonize Feat and using it at juuuuust double their movement away to make them charge.

If you take Shield Slam via 2 levels in Ranger, you don't need to take Improved Shield Bash. I'm quite fond of the Freebooter Ranger Archetype.

Learn Greater Bull Rush, and you will give all your allies Attacks of Opportunity with every Shield Slam. Learn Paired Opportunist via a level in Cavalier or 3 in Inquisitor, and you get an AoO, too. Take the Spiked Destroyer Feat, and you will get a bonus Armor Spike attack every round.

Take Great Cleave. You will be able to use your Reach weapon on targets 10' from you, and shield bash the ones next to you all as part of the same Cleave.

Ask your DM about his rules for the Bashing Enchantment on Spiked Shields and the Klar. It might affect your decision as to which shield you should use.

When they see you with your new Phalanx Soldier, everyone will think you're punking them and have been playing DnD for 30 years. Have fun.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Are you opposed to playing dwarves?
A dwarven slayer can build for strength and still get 2 weapon fighting with the combat style talents... Dwarves with martial weapon proficiency are automatically proficient with the dorn dergar which is a reach weapon that can be used one handed with a feat (it's called Dorn Dergar Master, or 'chain flail master' on d20pfsrd). So, then you can pretty easily, and pretty effectively, fight with a dorn dergar at reach with your main hand and shield bash (adjacent) with your off hand.


I'd offer Switch Hitter Ranger as an alternative option. It's not complex but has a bit of variety if you want it. At the simplest you can choose an archetype that loses spells and opt not to have an animal companion, but this is less powerful.

As a basic frame use the classic Switch Hitter from Treantmonk's Guide. I'd suggest considering the Urban Ranger Archetype and the Boon Companion feat at level 5.

You have a big 2-handed weapon if enemies are close. You have a bow if enemies are far away. You have stealth and scouting skills. The pet and spells are icing on the cake.


If you want to play a low-difficulty class and still learn the system, I reccomend picking a class that has minimal statistical modifications and minimal decicionmaking during character creation and each round.
Note that EVERY character will wind up having some effects that are limited or stat modifying, power attack for example is extremely common. Your goal should be to make a character that routinely makes the same modifications, power attack and rage for example are easy to calculate because they always grant the same benefits and penalties and neither of those effects are case dependent, such as Favored enemy or Smite.

Warpriest for example has a HUUUGE number of statistic modifying options and a bucketload of buffs that he can bring into play quickly, Warpriest have so much stuff to do that they are one of the rare classes that can make good tactical/strategic use of every action slot routinely.
Barbarian on the other hand has only a few options every round. Generally "To charge, or not to charge." is the biggest one, raging is almost allways a given and youre not likely to run out of rage/day often.

The ultimate "Learn pathfinder" class that is also easy to play is the Bloodrager.
Bloodragers have:
A selectable theme (Bloodline).
Daily use class abilities (Bloodline powers).
A spendable resource core to their class (Bloodrage).
Options in and out of combat (Moderate amount of skillpoints per level and high attack bonus).
And finally, spells.
So many features might sound hard to play with, but its really easy. Your daily use abilities are picked for you by your bloodline, and using them is rarely complicated (All of the aberrant abilities for example are passive effects, using them is part of your strategy, not your action economy.) You get spells, but they are so few and so low leveled that it is fine if you just pick a spell you like and use it with impunity, reliable spells like Magic missile or Shield will rarely fail you. Counting rage rounds will become near automatic after a few combats, you can even scetch up a basic system on your character sheet to tick off rage rounds one by one.

If you do pick Fighter, a fighter is really good for Stoic combat styles that favor skill and mastery at mundane stuff (Like the phalanx fighter, which is one of my favorite archetypes for fighter and I have used it for some of my most memorable NPC factions in the game) but they dont have much "bling" factor. Fighters are good at what you made them to be good at, but bad at pretty much everything else, which is why many people think they are bad or boring. I find that fighters are best apprechiated by seasoned players that already have plenty of experience with spellcasters and other complex classes and want to play a fighter for the change of pace.

Whatever class you decide to play keep in mind that not class is truly "Easy", they all need to be built and played properly or you risk making a character that is unreasonably weak.


Slayer is pretty forgiving of sub-optimal builds without having a lot of things to keep track of. Sure you can make very optimized slayer builds with lots of choices, but you could just as easily go two handed weapon and start power attacking face smashing.

Which makes me think that I should add a simplest Slayer to my class guide. A build that anyone could play and still do great.


Like Scott above I really dig on the Phalanx Soldier for at least a 3 level dip. Perhaps going slayer the rest of the way for better skill points and the style feats would be an easy and strong build that will let you get used to the non-caster types. Polearm and shield is cool and not easy to pull off without Phalanx Soldier. Combat Reflexes and Shield Slam and you are good to do your shtick at level 5 when the casters start taking off.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Ranger is a really good starter class. It's flexible, but not too flexible and has a lot of cool abilities that you get slowly, so they're not all thrown at you at once.

If you have access to the Advanced Race Guide and don't mind playing a Dwarf, the Foehammer (dwarf-only Fighter archetype) is solid and very straightforward. You get some battlefield control (Bullrush and Trip) and pretty much wreck everything you hit.


Gregory Connolly helped me form a lot of my ideas about Bull Rush builds


The unchained fighter looks like a fun option - but the above guidance about not worrying about resource tracking is worth listening to. Non-resource limited classes are few and far between, and generally weaker overall. They use the resource limitation to offset the stronger abilities of the classes that use them. Since the rest of your party will be resource limited, it's not like you'll be getting in a bunch more fights per day, so you might as well play withing your resources as well. Whether that's the barbarian's rage, or the unchained fighter's stamina, or a swashbuckler's panache (all three of these make fun first characters) - it will still be relatively easy to work with.


Weapon Expert Rogue is a 3rd party option, so I don't know how your DM feels about that sort of thing.

Personally, I'm a real big fan of Lore Warden fighters. Get an Agile Elven Branched Spear, use +Dex to Damage, and get a ridiculous number of really powerful Attacks of Opportunity. (You don't need to track combat maneuvers, but if you're willing to take just Improved Trip then you can basically make a solid pile of fallen enemies in front of you for the spellcasters to fireball). Then get Cleave, and retrain it to Whirlwind Attack around level 7-8; if you pick up a magic item that boosts reach, you can keep a whole bunch of mooks at your mercy.

Meanwhile, a 1-2 level dip into Master of Many Styles or Martial Artist Monk (low enough to not get any ki you need to worry about) can give you some really nice tricks, like Deflect Arrows or Kirin Strike (which, with Unchained, lets you add +Int to attacks without spending anything, which is nice for a smart fighter).

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

A switch-hitter ranger or slayer might be the best bet. Rangers teach you about a lot of skills, some fighting styles, monster types, spells, and animal companions. They're also really useful both in combat and outside of combat.

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