I'm running my crew through the last book of the Kingmaker series. The players consist of a paladin, rogue, monk, and oracle. When the oracle leveled up to 14 (CL 7), he gained the ability to Summon Monster VII and, therefore, the capability of summoning a Tyrannosaurus (Dinosaur).
Now, this is all well and good, but in practice, the tyrannosaurus has proven to be immensely powerful during combat. The combination of its to-hit bonus, damage, hit points, reach, grappling, and swallow capabilities make almost every encounter I throw at them unbalanced in the party's favor. Add to that the fact that the oracle can summon this guy 4x a day and place him almost anywhere in from the start of combat. Also add the fact that the oracle has not been adding the celestial template which would make the dinosaur even more powerful.
What typically happens in combat is the oracle summons the dinosaur on the other side of the enemies. The dinosaur then provides easily-accessible flanking to the party. The dinosaur then puts an abrupt stop to any enemy movement within 20' due to the threat of a free attack and therefore a grab. The grabs almost always succeed from the +32 grapple bonus. Then whatever creature the dino bit, is inevitably chewed on and swalled because the grabbed creature can't break the dino's CMD 39. All of these attacks work just as well against "boss" enemy creatures as well.
So is this overpowered? In our game it is, and I don't know the correct solution. Adding to the problem is that in the Kingmaker books, combats are one-offs. By that I mean, there are typically no dungeons and therefore a rationing of spells. Combats occur on different days and, therefore, everyone goes into battle fresh. Most combat also occurs outside also, so the dino has plenty of room to run around.
Thoughts?
The dino shouldn't be able to come in until round two. Summon monster X is a full round cast, which means the oracle starts chanting "Ooga chakka" on their turn in round 1, and it comes into being just before their turn in round 2, and then the oracle acts normally. That should give the baddies some time to get into position.
I think the dino may be uncommonly good in kingmaker due to a combination of 1) lots of outdoor encounters whereas its usefulness would be limited by being inside in many campaigns and 2) An overabundance of human sized foes. Whereas in many other campaigns would have monsters too big to swallow, filled to the brim with damage reduction that Barney can't overcome, and a cmd that lets them fight back the campaign keeps throwing H'orderves his way.
Its situationally awesome... this just happens to be its situation.
5 foot steps, withdraw actions, also he doesn't have combat reflexes, so only 1 AoO per turn. Have some small fry critter move first, draw the AoO, then the big baddy can storm into the PCs. Alternately, have the big baddy take a withdraw action and retreat back to somewhere the 20'x20' trex doesn't fit.
Don't forget summon monster is a full round, not a standard action.
We've been playing the summoning casting time correctly. The oracle just sits back a round to cast his spell, and then the t-rex wreaks its havoc.
The other nice thing about it being a summoned deal is that the oracle go on about its business, supporting the party with heals and offensive spells.
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Oh man. My favorite story RPG story involves summoned t-rexes.
We had to destroy a vampire nest and all the vamps inside of it, and our Cleric player was gone that session. We hit upon the idea of using Swallow Whole. What we did was have the T-Rex swallow whole the vampire lord, and then breathe in really, really hard so it couldn't gaseous form its way out. We then teleported the T-Rex (with the vampire lord inside) to the roof of the building we were in, into bright sunlight. Dismissed the T-Rex, and the vampire lord was thrust out into the sunlight, and exploded a round or two later.
It was awesome.
Although I suspect that if the GM actually enforced the rules about having to use Handle Animal to control the T-Rex, things would've been different. Getting them to do things they don't know how to do (so...most things other than attack) requires a full-round action a DC 25 handle animal check.
The spell is a 1 round action to summon. The GM can disrupt your spellcasting, and monsters you are fighting at level 13 should be able to deal with it. It only has an AC of 21. The monster is also so large that unless you are outside it is really hard to summon.
Oh, Kingmaker. That campaign is a lot easier than many GM's like for it to be due to the fact that you might only get one combat a day. If this were a typical AP the T-Rex would be less of an issue.
@Tarantula and @Cheapy, both the oracle player and myself have been playing our creatures as they would be act in "real life." That is, the t-rex moves up and chomps things in front of it. No need for a Handle Animal check in that case. The enemies don't want to get eaten by a t-rex and therefore don't typically make a suicide run at the dino. Also, making the enemies act as if they know the t-rex only has one AoO per round is lame GM shenanigans.
@wraithstrike, it's hard to dispel the oracle's casting due to the fact that he stands back, away from danger. Also add to the fact that most enemies don't know what the heck the oracle is specifically doing. Magic users are always waving their hands about almost every turn. Although I'm not sure we've been doing the range on the spell accurately. If he's CL 7, the t-rex can only appear within 40', correct?
Also @wraithstrike, even though the dino is really easy to hit with 21 AC, 153 hp is a lot to chew through quickly. Even if the t-rex goes down, it has the Diehard feat, and at last resort, another dino appears in its stead. The oracle frequently heals the dino anyway so that makes it very difficult to slay the beast unless the whole encounter focuses on the dino, ignoring the rest of the party.
Well, to get the t-rex to attack any particular enemy requires Handle Animal.
It is, of course, on the powerful end. Maybe come up with a gentleman's agreement to not use it all the time?
I would perhaps argue that they don't need to know what he is casting, its taking a full round to cast ....so can't be good :)
So as others put, its about interrupting, protection versus evil or hiding in small areas it can't get to. I GM'd a kingmaker campaign, its hard work on a GM...you wait til they start hitting book 6. Good luck!
Also, making the enemies act as if they know the t-rex only has one AoO per round is lame GM shenanigans.
Not as much as you think. Consider that the combat round with its individual turns is just an abstraction to enable actions to be adjudicated easily. A lot of stuff is roughly simultaneous and not truly discrete. It's totally reasonable to expect creatures afraid of the T-rex to bolt when they see it distracted by the first moving morsel. In fact, they may be quietly praying for something, anything, to draw its attention so they can run like hell. I know I would.
@Tarantula and @Cheapy, both the oracle player and myself have been playing our creatures as they would be act in "real life." That is, the t-rex moves up and chomps things in front of it. No need for a Handle Animal check in that case. The enemies don't want to get eaten by a t-rex and therefore don't typically make a suicide run at the dino. Also, making the enemies act as if they know the t-rex only has one AoO per round is lame GM shenanigans.
I see fleeing the t-rex as more of a "While its busy eating Bob, I'm going to run away" not a "Because I'm the GM I know that the t-rex can only make one AoO a turn."
You keep saying the oracle is CL7. If the oracle is level 14, and can cast a 7th level spell, he should be caster level 14. The range is 60'. So at best you can put the trex 60' away, where his center will be. Making him 50' away from the oracle (Since his middle is 60' and he goes 10' in both directions.)
Another point that makes the trex super strong, is as a gargantuan animal, medium sized creatures can occupy the same spaces as it. This means that the oracle could drop the t-rex on top of enemies, and let the t-rex choose whichever targets it wants to eat first.
Really, the weaknesses of the t-rex are its size, its single attack per turn and single AoO. Deny it those (withdraw actions, etc) and its damage per round will drop as well. Anything which targets touch AC is another route to try.
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By level 14, anything you're fighting should know
1) anything chanting something you don't understand is bad. Shoot them. (this unfortunately caused the death of the thoqua song troupe, Bore)
2) If the monsters mouth is full with your friends corpse/soon to be corpse, then there is no room for you. Its a perfect time to run.
3) Any mook that has lived that long knows they don't need to outrun the T rex, they just need to outrun the person next to them, or better yet, kneecap them or push (reposition) them towards the t rex to draw the aoo and run
4) Bosses should know this too, and supply their mooks with T rex repelant... aka BBQ sauce and chives , so that the mooks draw the AoO's so the boss can move in.
By level 14, anything you're fighting should know
1) anything chanting something you don't understand is bad. Shoot them. (this unfortunately caused the death of the thoqua song troupe, Bore)
2) If the monsters mouth is full with your friends corpse/soon to be corpse, then there is no room for you. Its a perfect time to run.
3) Any mook that has lived that long knows they don't need to outrun the T rex, they just need to outrun the person next to them, or better yet, kneecap them or push (reposition) them towards the t rex to draw the aoo and run
4) Bosses should know this too, and supply their mooks with T rex repelant... aka BBQ sauce and chives , so that the mooks draw the AoO's so the boss can move in.
Maybe the BBEG can smother himself in hot chillies or something, to burn the poor dinosaur's mouth. :P
Seriously though, do none of these enemies have any decent ranged attacks, movement options, or anti-summoning spells (such as dismissal)?
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I'm running my crew through the last book of the Kingmaker series. The players consist of a paladin, rogue, monk, and oracle. When the oracle leveled up to 14 (CL 7), he gained the ability to Summon Monster VII and, therefore, the capability of summoning a Tyrannosaurus (Dinosaur).
Now, this is all well and good, but in practice, the tyrannosaurus has proven to be immensely powerful during combat. The combination of its to-hit bonus, damage, hit points, reach, grappling, and swallow capabilities make almost every encounter I throw at them unbalanced in the party's favor. Add to that the fact that the oracle can summon this guy 4x a day and place him almost anywhere in from the start of combat. Also add the fact that the oracle has not been adding the celestial template which would make the dinosaur even more powerful.
What typically happens in combat is the oracle summons the dinosaur on the other side of the enemies. The dinosaur then provides easily-accessible flanking to the party. The dinosaur then puts an abrupt stop to any enemy movement within 20' due to the threat of a free attack and therefore a grab. The grabs almost always succeed from the +32 grapple bonus. Then whatever creature the dino bit, is inevitably chewed on and swalled because the grabbed creature can't break the dino's CMD 39. All of these attacks work just as well against "boss" enemy creatures as well.
So is this overpowered? In our game it is, and I don't know the correct solution. Adding to the problem is that in the Kingmaker books, combats are one-offs. By that I mean, there are typically no dungeons and therefore a rationing of spells. Combats occur on different days and, therefore, everyone goes into battle fresh. Most combat also occurs outside also, so the dino has plenty of room to...
Has the PC ever seen or heard of a Tyrannosaurus Rex, or are they even in your world?
You do understand that if you can't communicate with it you can't command it to do anything. How is the Oracle commanding the T-Rex?
You do understand that if you can't communicate with it you can't command it to do anything. How is the Oracle commanding the T-Rex?
This spell summons to your side a natural creature (typically an animal, fey, magical beast, outsider with the elemental subtype, or a giant). The summoned ally appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions as you command
So getting the T rex to attack your opponents doesn't require commanding it. It shows up hungry and looking to chomp something (as well as some inherent ability to determine who you think your foes are) If you want someone alive, want it to follow you, or want it NOT to attack you need a speak with animals going. (i think its still an animal even though celestial)
You do understand that if you can't communicate with it you can't command it to do anything. How is the Oracle commanding the T-Rex?
This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. The spell conjures one of the creatures from the 1st Level list on Table 10–1. You choose which kind of creature to summon, and you can choose a different one each time you cast the spell.
You don't need to be able to communicate with a summoned monster to have it attack your enemies. You don't get to choose its tactics or who it attacks, however.
BG spell casters throwing Hold Monster can also take it out of the fight as well
I'm running my crew through the last book of the Kingmaker series. The players consist of a paladin, rogue, monk, and oracle. When the oracle leveled up to 14 (CL 7), he gained the ability to Summon Monster VII and, therefore, the capability of summoning a Tyrannosaurus (Dinosaur).
Now, this is all well and good, but in practice, the tyrannosaurus has proven to be immensely powerful during combat. The combination of its to-hit bonus, damage, hit points, reach, grappling, and swallow capabilities make almost every encounter I throw at them unbalanced in the party's favor. Add to that the fact that the oracle can summon this guy 4x a day and place him almost anywhere in from the start of combat. Also add the fact that the oracle has not been adding the celestial template which would make the dinosaur even more powerful.
What typically happens in combat is the oracle summons the dinosaur on the other side of the enemies. The dinosaur then provides easily-accessible flanking to the party. The dinosaur then puts an abrupt stop to any enemy movement within 20' due to the threat of a free attack and therefore a grab. The grabs almost always succeed from the +32 grapple bonus. Then whatever creature the dino bit, is inevitably chewed on and swalled because the grabbed creature can't break the dino's CMD 39. All of these attacks work just as well against "boss" enemy creatures as well.
So is this overpowered? In our game it is, and I don't know the correct solution. Adding to the problem is that in the Kingmaker books, combats are one-offs. By that I mean, there are typically no dungeons and therefore a rationing of spells. Combats occur on different days and, therefore, everyone goes into battle fresh. Most combat also occurs outside also, so the dino has plenty of room to...
If it is good for the goose, it is good for the gander. Next encounter, have a enemy caster do exactly the same thing, and bring in his own T-Rex behind the party. Right beside where your oracle is standing.
Then sit back and weather the storm of protests.
Even better, summon an opposite gender T-Rex and have both of them suddenly ignore their summoners as Barry White starts singing in the background.
Master Arminas
Okay, here are two situations that we actually played through. I'll put them both in spoiler tags as to not ruin anything in Kingmaker.
First situation:
Second situation:
In both of those examples, the enemies couldn't really stop the oracle from summoning the dino. They also couldn't do much to stand against the dino itself as most of them are melee combatants. What do you suggest as far as a better way to run those combats to allow for a more evenly-balanced experience between the heroes and enemies?
Protection from (insert AL Here) will also prevent the T-Rex from attacking the protected target
From Protection from Evil: Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by evil summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Summoned creatures that are not evil are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature.
Summoned creatures have the AL of the Caster and usually the fiendish or celestial template unless summon nature's ally spell
Okay, here are two situations that we actually played through. I'll put them both in spoiler tags as to not ruin anything in Kingmaker.
First situation: ** spoiler omitted **
Second situation: ** spoiler omitted **
In both of those examples, the enemies couldn't really stop the oracle from summoning the dino. They also couldn't do much to stand against the dino itself as most of them are melee combatants. What do you suggest as far as a better way to run those combats to allow for a more...
For the first situation, I don't see how the Elementals weren't putting the smack-down on the T-Rex. They're pretty tough on their own, and pretty hard to grapple, even for a T-Rex.
As far as situation 2, the fight seems pretty awesome. The PCs took a beating, but prevailed. Is that bad?
Any enemy spell casters should have spellcraft to know what the oracle is casting.
Counter spell to stop the summons.
Worse Control Summons to have the T-Rex attack the party.
By level 14 the party should be getting at least locally famous. Others should know what they do and plan accordingly. Especially if the oracle is doing the same thing all the time.
Flying or really fast moving enemies that the t-rex can't easily hurt. Like summoned air elementals.
Attack from inside a heavily forested area with old growth oak and walnut that the slows the t-rex down alot.
Illusions so the t-rex attacks false images. Heck an entire illusionary force to attrack attention and the summons while a were-rat assassin hits the oracle from upclose and person from within improved invisibility.
Anything with will or reflex saves cast at the t-rex. Like blindness, confusion, dominate monster, or charm monster.
Incorporeal or etherial opponents.
Hostages, that are supposed to be saved. (They will be in trouble if the t-rex they summoned eats the hostages.)
Skirmishes with fast mounted archers.
Intelligent enemy that sends medium sized bands of disposable enemies to try and force the party to use up spells before he shows up for real.
Opponent that starts with silence, feeblemind, touch of idiocy, etc... to keep them from casting spells.
Drop an ooze or slime on the t-rex.
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One thing that was pointed out in another thread. Grab requires a free action. As such, the t-rex cannot grab off an AoO. Only on his attack during his turn can he grab. (Can't take free actions out of turn.) This helps with letting people run away and take a bite, without having to get grabbed and swallowed the next turn.
One thing that was pointed out in another thread. Grab requires a free action. As such, the t-rex cannot grab off an AoO. Only on his attack during his turn can he grab. (Can't take free actions out of turn.) This helps with letting people run away and take a bite, without having to get grabbed and swallowed the next turn.
This is kind of debated. The writers have used free action for things out of turn for a fair number of abilities.
A first level spell will stop the T-rex from touching it. Foes going up against a 14th level party ought to have access to that kind of thing.
(I understand that Kingmaker is rather oversupplied with big bulky monsters, and isn't quite so good at providing lots of casters to go up against, but surely someone planning to attack the PCs could, oh, equip their minions with something -- maybe one of the ettins has a horn of goodness/evil or something like that?)
or if you real want to get them Control Summoned Creature this 4th level spell will turn the tables t-rexs are not known for their will saves.
@Tarantula and @Cheapy, both the oracle player and myself have been playing our creatures as they would be act in "real life." That is, the t-rex moves up and chomps things in front of it. No need for a Handle Animal check in that case. The enemies don't want to get eaten by a t-rex and therefore don't typically make a suicide run at the dino. Also, making the enemies act as if they know the t-rex only has one AoO per round is lame GM shenanigans.
@wraithstrike, it's hard to dispel the oracle's casting due to the fact that he stands back, away from danger. Also add to the fact that most enemies don't know what the heck the oracle is specifically doing. Magic users are always waving their hands about almost every turn. Although I'm not sure we've been doing the range on the spell accurately. If he's CL 7, the t-rex can only appear within 40', correct?
Also @wraithstrike, even though the dino is really easy to hit with 21 AC, 153 hp is a lot to chew through quickly. Even if the t-rex goes down, it has the Diehard feat, and at last resort, another dino appears in its stead. The oracle frequently heals the dino anyway so that makes it very difficult to slay the beast unless the whole encounter focuses on the dino, ignoring the rest of the party.
I did not say dispel. I said disrupt. All it takes is a ready action. You do not have to be a caster to know someone is casting a spell.
If the caster level is 7 he should not be able to summon a T-Rex. Summon monster 7 requires the oracle to be level 14. That gives him a casting range of 60 feet. I will also add that following the rules closely for casters helps to keep them in check. The more lenient someone is the better they get.
One thing that was pointed out in another thread. Grab requires a free action. As such, the t-rex cannot grab off an AoO. Only on his attack during his turn can he grab. (Can't take free actions out of turn.) This helps with letting people run away and take a bite, without having to get grabbed and swallowed the next turn.This is kind of debated. The writers have used free action for things out of turn for a fair number of abilities.
The only exception I know of is speaking. The only other action type that exist outside of you turn by RAW is the immediate action.
@wraithstrike I meant "disrupt", not "dispel", sorry. My brain didn't translate to my fingers correctly.
On that note, I'm afraid dinging the oracle for enough damage for him to fail his disruption check is not an easy feat as well. I believe he has the second highest AC of the group. His check for the disruption is pretty easy to make most of the time as well.
That ruling about free actions during AoA's is very interesting. Is there an official clarification on that?
I really appreciate all the feedback all of you have been giving me. It's given me a lot of good ideas.
Unfortunately, it seems like the Kingmaker books do not handle this whole t-rex issue well. I'm not particularly excited about reworking every encounter to handle a giant dinosaur by giving the enemies access to various spells and environmental advantages, but I suppose that's part of a GM's responsibilities. When I chose to run with a provided adventure path, I did so to minimize the work required as a GM. Apparently I was naive to think that the book's contents would just "work" and I could run everything as written. I've noticed that the player's have been outclassing the encounters since the 5th (out of 6) books. The players were about 2 levels behind where they were supposed to be and still wiping the floor with everything. A big part of the problem, like I said before, is the party is full refreshed before every encounter. With experience running each book, I can firmly say I don't believe the books' authors accounted for this fact whatsoever.
But I digress... back to dino. I'm not too worried about rex's overpoweredness as the next part of the book takes a complete right turn and (spoilers) heads into a mystical realm of weirdness. Most encounters will be amidst a dense forest of trees that dino will have a bit of trouble maneuvering through. Also, most creatures in that realm have access to the types of magic you've been recommending, so that will be a relief.
I still have my doubts about the tyrannosaurus' power vs. accessibility, but I'll implement some of the suggested counterbalances and see what happens. The player running the oracle is also aware of the dino's seemingly uber-power and wants to "solve" the problem as well. It's a good thing when a player and a GM see eye to eye about wrinkles like this.
What is his AC, the oracle? If the book monsters can't hit him then revising the book monsters is an option.
Personally I don't think killing the T-Rex is that hard, but I would have to look at the book you are using also. A fighter at level 14 should have more hp than the T-rex and higher AC, and they can die.
Of course I do understand this is KM, and part of that AP are way too easy IMHO.
I will look over the book, and get back to you. I think I know which book you are in.
Many of the monsters in that part of the book will be more resistant to the T-rex.
edit:I was not angry before. :)
Sometimes text just comes across as harsher than it is intended to be.
I found the opposition in Kingmaker to be laughably underpowered.
I think it would have been both more challenging and more organic if the game restricted spellcasters, made crafting materials unavailable, and forced the PLAYERS to stick with the pathetic frontier-type equipment that the enemies use.
Also, does the oracle have enough Knowledge (Nature) to even know that there is such a thing as a T-rex?
Only late in the game do the monsters become respectable with a few exceptions. The biggest culprit was the one encounter a day. I think clearing a hex should have been replaces with clearing/obtaing/etc large sections of the land(new country) by completing quests. That would have taken care of the 1 combat per day issue, and it would make for a good reason to have more combats.
Each section of land cleared could still have multiple hexes.
The issue of not building up the kingdom while breaking the kingdom making rules is something I don't have answer for yet though. If I ever run it again I would probably have to take care of that.
Kingmaker is a very very easy AP, don't worry that a T-rex is destroying it, a lot of things can destroy it.
If the oracle is using all of his actions to summon a T-rex and heal it, then I don't think that's particularly overpowered. A T-rex isn't really any more deadly or disruptive than a level 14 melee fighter (in my experience) so if the PC were a fighter instead of an oracle, you'd have the same amount of monster-bashing going on, wouldn't you?
I do agree that a focused grappler will tend to greatly outclass a non-focused grappler, particularly at high levels. Whether you think that's a bug or a feature is a matter of personal opinion.
EDIT: I don't see any limit on the number of creatures you can swallow in the Swallow Whole ability, but as a practical matter I would probably limit it to one Huge creature, two Large creatures, etc. for a T-rex.
wait what a lvl 7 spell wins encounters?
REALLY????
wait what a lvl 7 spell wins encounters?
REALLY????
I agree that a Holy Word spell (for instance) would probably do a number on a bunch of
When is James Jacobs showing up in this thread anyway?
Hmm, last time I GM'd a summoned t-rex augmented by augmented summoning rarely hit my mooks, and they where hacked to bits in a round or two.
Didn't seem powerful at all. The point is, we all play the game differently, and what is powerful for some might not be for others.
Of course, if your group has NO CASTER AT ALL, summoned monsters will always be a problem.
If you have ANY KIND OF CASTER, the T-rex should be nothing more than a nuisance.
Do your opponents have a druid ?
- Hold animal
- Dominate animal (because that's fun).
- Pup Shape (because a Small T-rex with shiny little eyes trying to grapple you is so CUTE)
Do your opponents have a cleric/oracle ?
- Control Summoned creature (mwhahah)
- Hold Monster
Do your opponents have a wizard ?
- Any kind of SoS spell (Baleful polymorph is fun)
These are only a couple options.
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This thread has got me wondering what happens if a gargantuan T Rex tries to swallow a huge water elemental. Does it drown?
I'd probably rule that there are some things even a T Rex won't swallow!
As has been pointed out on this thread, there are lots of spells to counter a summoned T Rex. However, as the OP has explained, part of the problem is that most of the opponents in Kingmaker don't have access to them.
you don't need spells to to counter it, like I said my random mobs made mincemeat of my players summoned t-rex with meele