Compiling Bleed sources: AKA I wanna make a bleed character but...

[Zwordsman]

Howdy folks!

I was wondering if anyone happened to have a list of things that caused bleed damage?

I personally love debuffs like that, poison, etc in games. In pathfinder they are substantually harder to pull off. Sadly. (ya'kno baring touch spell specialist who rails stats mainly. But that is a different character for me)

So I was wondering what people knew of? Mainly stuff on the paizo PRD, but i guess just avoid 3party..

So

Wounding property:

This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons. A wounding weapon deals 1 point of bleed damage when it hits a creature. Multiple hits from a wounding weapon increase the bleed damage. Bleeding creatures take the bleed damage at the start of their turns. Bleeding can be stopped by a successful DC 15 Heal check or through the application of any spell that cures hit point damage. A critical hit does not multiply the bleed damage. Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to the bleed damage dealt by this weapon.

Oh why does that cost soo much.. if that was a +1 I'd really love that bugger.

Bleeding Critical :

Prerequisites: Critical Focus, base attack bonus +11.

Benefit: Whenever you score a critical hit with a slashing or piercing weapon, your opponent takes 2d6 points of bleed damage each round on his turn, in addition to the damage dealt by the critical hit. Bleed damage can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal skill check or through any magical healing. The effects of this feat stack.

Also.. Bleeidng Critical "the effects of this feat stack" that means the bleed damage stacks with bleed damage from itself. Or did it mean the bleed damage from this stacks with other sources of bleed? i'm guessing the former right?

Splintering weapon:

Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1, proficient with weapon, weapon made of primitive material.

Benefit: Whenever you use a melee or thrown weapon with the fragile weapon feature or similar quality and hit an opponent, you can give your weapon the broken condition to deal that opponent 1d4 points of bleed damage.

boar style

tiger style

impaling critical:

Prerequisite: Critical Focus, Weapon Specialization with selected piercing melee weapon, base attack bonus +11.

Benefit: Whenever you score a critical hit with the selected piercing melee weapon, you can impale your opponent on your weapon. While your opponent is impaled in this way, each time he starts his turn, you deal damage equal to your weapon’s damage dice plus the extra damage dice from your weapon’s properties. As an immediate action, you can pull your weapon out of your opponent. If your opponent is ever outside your reach, you must spend a free action to let go of your weapon or pull it out of him. Your opponent can also spend a move action to pull your weapon out. When the weapon comes out, your opponent takes damage as if starting his turn impaled. While you impale your opponent with your weapon, you cannot use it to attack, and you must hold on to it.

Anyone else know of some stuff?

anyone have good ideas for a person using bleed?

A major problem I see is most of the really fun bleed are late level. (bab 11, 12, 13).. Plenty of things later on are immune to bleed. Granted if your in a human heavy game it's still pretty amusing..

So far the easist bleed I see is something along the lines of a monk or some other TWF thrower, throwing fragile stuff. (shurikens seem like the easist off hand but i haven't looked too much)
or a rapier with wounding and eventually bleeding critcal.

Its extra hard trying to build one that doesn't waste feats since bleed doesn't stack generally, and later on multi sources isn't that great.

[Zwordsman]

oh bleeding attack the rogue talent is also intersting. Bleed = Sneak attak dice I wonder if it's static or rolled die.. would be funny to go sap master with that double nonlethal sneak attack dice thing.. with this.

bleeding attack:

Benefit: A rogue with this ability can cause living opponents to bleed by hitting them with a sneak attack. This attack causes the target to take 1 additional point of damage each round for each die of the rogue's sneak attack (e.g., 4d6 equals 4 points of bleed). Bleeding creatures take that amount of damage every round at the start of each of their turns. The bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or the application of any effect that heals hit point damage.

Special: Bleeding damage from this ability does not stack with itself. Bleeding damage bypasses any damage reduction the creature might possess.

[Owen K. C. Stephens]

Bleeding Attack from Pathfinder Chronicles - Cheliax: Empire of Devils, but it specifically doesn't stack with anything else.

Blood Beak, from Advanced Race Guide, but it's tengu-only.

Splintering Weapon from Ultimate Combat, but you'll need a golf bag of spare weapons to break.

The vengeful hunter fighter archetype in Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Combat

The bleeding wound deed of an 11th level swashbuckler from Advanced Class Guide.

Bloodletting Kukri from Ultimate Equipment

Pinning Rend from ultimate combat, which requires you to be 9th, pin a foe, and deal unarmed strike damage, but can add up to a lot of bleed.

Red mantis Assassin prestige class from Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Paths of Prestige

Bloody Assault from Advanced Player's Guide, which stacks with other bleeds but not itself (and requires a -5 attack penalty)

Bloodletting from Pathfinder Player Companion: Faiths of Corruption, which requires you worship evil deities.

[Zwordsman]

Thanks.

Bloody Assault would be amusing with a Rod of Ice or Delliquestist gloves (which i can't spell at all.. The acid glvoes).
Power attack doesnt' work with touch, but this doesn't specify that it won't, nor does it specify power attack needs tobe active.

Also.. What do you mean it stacks with other bleeds? I didn't notice anywhere it said that...

bloody assuault:

Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: You can choose to take a –5 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to inflict 1d4 points of bleed damage with your weapon melee attacks, in addition to the normal damage dealt by the weapon. A creature continues to take bleed damage every round at the start of its turn. Bleed damage can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or through any magical healing. Bleed damage from this feat does not stack with itself. You must choose to use this feat before making the attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn (although the bleeding lasts until healed, as normal).

[mplindustries]

"I wanna make a bleed character but..."

...you realized it was a terrible idea and gave up? I hope? Because bleeding in Pathfinder is horrible. It's one of those things that should be super awesome, but then, they were too afraid of what it might do if left unchecked and made it nonstacking. So, unless you're talking about a Wounding Weapon or Bleeding Critical, you're basically one and done. And Wounding/Bleeding Critical only stack with themselves (not other sources of bleed or even each other), so, you're still only getting once source of bleed and just hoping that you hit/crit enough to matter.

Further, despite being a stacking source of bleed, Wounding is also a trap. In order for the bleed to be worth it (over just having +2 more enhancement bonus), you need to stop hitting the bad guy and/or otherwise purposefully let him live long enough to bleed to death.

Example:
You deal 10 damage on a hit (I know, super weak, just go with it for ease of example) and, let's arbitrarily say you hit three times per round.

With a wounding weapon:
Round 1: You deal 30 damage total and they take 3 bleed.
Round 2: They take 3 bleed and deal 30 more damage (63 total) and they have Bleed 6
Round 3: They take 6 bleed, you deal 30 more damage (99 total) and they have 9 bleed
Round 4: They take 9 bleed, you deal 30 more damage (138 total) and they have 12 bleed, etc.

With just a +2 enhancement bonus:
Round 1: You deal 36 damage
Round 2: You deal 36 more (72 total)
Round 3: You deal 36 more (108 total)
Round 4: You deal 36 more (144 total)

It's a bad deal. They need to survive way too long for you to get anything out of it (seriously, if the bad guy is up 5 rounds, you're probably dead--I've almost never seen fights last that long unless they were whiff fests).

Bleeding Critical is actually not bad since there's no trade-off, but unpredictable enough that building your character around it is silly, especially since the likelihood that you could crit twice on a guy and still have them standing long enough to take significant bleed is ridiculous.

Basically, yeah, don't do this. It sucks, and I wish there were ways to make effect DoT characters, but, yeah, it's not going to happen, sorry.

Bleed, like so many things (disease, anyone?) is a weapon for NPCs to screw with PCs. The PCs are actually expected to survive, so stacking bleed is actually much more of a concern for them, since they might have to spend precious combat actions stopping it and it can also kill long after the bad guy that inflicted it is dead (meanwhile, if the PC is dead, it is generally irrelevant that the bad guy died from the bleed afterwards).

[Ecaterina Ducaird]

I'm confused.

SRD on Bleed wrote:

A creature that is taking bleed damage takes the listed amount of damage at the beginning of its turn. Bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or through the application of any spell that cures hit point damage (even if the bleed is ability damage). Some bleed effects cause ability damage or even ability drain. Bleed effects do not stack with each other unless they deal different kinds of damage.

My read of that has always been that ... well... bleed doesn't stack. So your wounding weapon bleeds for 1 when you hit someone the first time... the second time they are bleeding for 1 still. The 137th time, they are still bleeding for 1. I wouldn't even pay +1 for wounding if that is correct.

To help put it in perspective for you, Bleeding crit is (on average) 7 damage a round per crit and from what I can see is probably the best bleed source out there just because it does stack. I haven't crunched the numbers, but I'm pretty sure that pulling in 1 crit a round reliably is going to be the limit. That means that bleed is only marginally more effective than a free acid arrow.

[Ashram]

Wounding is so expensive BECAUSE it specifically says it stacks.

[Cap. Darling]

2 kukris and bleeding critical and done. With things like blade of mercy and enforcer you can decide to scare folks instead:)

[insaneogeddon]

Weapon Focus
Dazzling Display
Shatter Defenses
Deadly Stroke
Greater Weapon Focus
and
Performing Combat (Heros Display)
Heros Display
or
Master Combat Performer and Heroes Display

Perhaps adding Dramatic Display (+2 hit) or Savage Display (+d6 dam)
with
Masterful Display (2 performance feats) but might stack to Performing combat
or
Master Combat Performer (infinite performance feats as free actions)

(the performance feats really are fuzzy and need clarification as they add so much RP and back story but seems their writers were confused and had no clear vision when writing them).

Basically all add up to:

Area debuff (intimidate) all will love you for + their flat footed (bonus to hit) +
CON bleed... the only bleed worth while!

Bonus points for stacking Vital Strike and Deadly Stroke (enlarge and lead blades help).

PS: Samurai IS good for this build (with order of Cockatrice) but if you
can wait till after 11th level for scaring the hell out of DMs and PCs alike any class that gets greater weapon focus works .. battle oracles or now even Battle Shamans and Curse of Suffering doubles the bleed damage.

[AndIMustMask]

if memory serves, there's an obedience to some demon lord/devil or other that increases bleed damage you deal (or was it that they deal additional bleed dice that stack with the original source)

i'll go see if i can track it down

EDIT: ah, Andirifkhu lets you deal an automatic 5 points of bleed on hits with slashing weapons.

[Zwordsman]

Oh I'ts been firmly established it's not really that useful at all later
and that generally it's less effective than alternatives.

That doesn't make it any less fun. Same with poisons. It just takes the right game for it to be fun, and i'd rather have something set up for when that occurs. Hence trying to find the most amusing way to do it.

Theres just not way to amake it entirely about bleed damage though but I can certainly include it.

It's not like you have to wait for them to bleed out, I just think of it as extra damage. Sure not as much extra damage as other things but it's extra damage I enjoy.

DOT isnt' the main objective. it's fine to cut them down if they are bleeding haha. It's just plain old fun. If I cut them down before their turn comes up and they never take the bleed, oh well. If not then neat bleeding!
Wounding is so bad because they tried to make it DOT based, but made it cost so much it won't come up nearly quick enough. Should have either lowered the cost or raised the amount of bleed.

Above 10 is easy to include it in a build and make the build actually effective anyway (doesn't cost much at all to include bleed in it). SAdly lower level is a lot less readily easy.
Mostly looks like rogue stuff, which isnt' trribly bad I suppose. has a few amusing combos. or fragile weapon (far less amusing version)

Just takes the right sort of game for it to be fun. Swashbuckler with bleeding crit is pretty amusing. Otherwise I can see a few other fun and usuable styles without having to spend more than a feat or so.

Have a pretty amusing dex basd shield champion brawler in mind now.. if I ever start a game that high level. Obviously not as effective as straight beat face but I have some pretty amusing thoughts... Due to the freebies of that class
A Arcane trickster version too now depending on a few things that are amusing.

[Zwordsman]

Oh and thanks for all the input!

[Ishpumalibu]

Bloody claws seems like it might be fun to exploit with that if you could get caster level high and do lots of damage.

[Zwordsman]

Oh.. that would be fun to pick up on my feral hunter. I didn't notice that spell.

Though maybe a bit high lv for what it does.. I still like it!

[Queen Moragan]

Not all Bleeds are the same.

If you read through each Bleed source, you will find the there are several slight variations in how they are worded, specifically, how to stop the Bleeding.

[Fruian Thistlefoot]

I will throw my hat into the ring for a Verminous Hunter using a Giant Mantis (or some grab creature) and the Leech Focus.

Quote:

Leech: The creature gains a +2 competence bonus on grapple combat maneuver checks, and deals 1 point of bleed damage every time it succeeds at a grapple combat maneuver check to damage an opponent (this bleed stacks with itself ). These benefits increase to a +4 bonus and 3 points of bleed at 8th level, and a +6 bonus and 5 points of bleed at 15th level. Bleed damage from this ability does not stack with itself.

Sure it doesn't stack with itself but It is still bleed damage on a grappled creature. Makes it harder to remove the bleed being grappled.

[Ishpumalibu]

Bleeding wound from a gunslinger could also be cool.

[Shasf]

Holy Vindicator causes bleed damage - albeit to himself.
use Celestial Obedience (Vildeis) to transfer any/all bleed effects from you to all enemies within 30 ft (no save).

So that's something I suppose.

[Eigengrau]

I like the 11th level Swashbuckler Bleed myself. Dex Mod in Bleed as a free action when you hit or a 1 point Dex/Str/Con bleed. The CON bleed is the best one for bleeding him out and you can combine it with the regular bleed too.

[insaneogeddon]

Hmmm a swashbuckler with deadly stroke...

might be whats needed after the lead blade, enlarged vital strike deadly stroke 16d6 + 1 con bleed guy.

[Ymmijx]

poisonist archetype for alchemist gets a poison that can do a d6 of bleed. i'm planning to use the rules for milking poison to extract it from myself then use the concentrate poison discovery to up the save and duration then slap it on a snakebite dagger and basically have a dagger that can dish a disgusting poison dc.

[cfalcon]

mplindustries wrote:

With a wounding weapon:

Round 1: You deal 30 damage total and they take 3 bleed.
Round 2: They take 3 bleed and deal 30 more damage (63 total) and they have Bleed 6
Round 3: They take 6 bleed, you deal 30 more damage (99 total) and they have 9 bleed
Round 4: They take 9 bleed, you deal 30 more damage (138 total) and they have 12 bleed, etc.

The bleeding weapon enchantment states that it deals bleed damage when it hits, and then it also states that it deals bleed damage at the beginning of a character's turn. My understanding would be that the first round would deal 30 damage and 3 points of bleed, and then at the start of their turn, they take 3 bleed. In other words, I believe it ties the +2 enhancement for damage at the beginning of the opponent's turn, based on the wording of it.

So I would have it as:

Round 1: You deal 30 damage plus 3 bleed damage (33 total).
Round 2: They take 3 bleed and you deal 30 damage plus 3 bleed damage (33 total this attack, 69 total) and they have Bleed 6.
Round 3: They take 6 bleed, you deal 30 more damage plus 3 bleed damage (33 total this attack, 108 total) and they have Bleed 9.
Round 4: They take 9 bleed, you deal 30 more damage plus 3 bleed damage (33 total this attack, 150 total) and they have bleed 12.

Is there some ruling or some example text that would show it going the other way? Or are we just reading it differently?

[Undead Thread]

Three years old.

[cfalcon]

I even checked the post above meeeeeeee

[Zwordsman]

whats really funny a few days ago when this popped back up I even went "ooh. a topic I like. I love poison and bleed stuff!" opened it.
"Oh.. its mine.. and wow I sure have grown as a player."

also some fun ideas in general, like with a GunChemist

Makes me wonder how they came across this one~

Also I wonder what a "poisonist archetype" is.. like the Toxicant archetype?
In the end that was the most effective poison usage type I know of anyway.