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For the Monk
I should have said "One of the best ways of getting a high AC without crippling your offence". Even so, 1d8+4 isn't exactly mind blowing. You have to burn ki along with a full attack to deal about the same damage as a figher or barbarian.
Sorry - I thought my mention of Swift Drinker made it obvious that it was a Drunken Master - hence having as much ki as he wants, spending a swift action a point and going into fights with extra. (Frankly - I'm of the opinion that virtually all monks should be either Sohei for the static bonuses or Drunken Master for infinite ki. If they stacked - I'd do that.)
And no - it still isn't super high offense. But I've found that as long as the entire party builds with solid offense so that you don't have to worry about protecting the glass cannons, you don't need to focus so hard on offense. Find an Ashiel thread - they say the argument better than I do. :P
EVERY TIME I've made the comparison I've mentioned such disadvantages.Clearly not. If you accounted for that then CLH would say you build a strawman.Not when in comparison to a build using PA. At level 8+, the TWF build will be more accurate than a build using PA.Even when you factor in that TWF is more MAD, more feat-intensive and spreads your WBL thinner?
Except when you actually run numbers. You say that at 8th level TWF is more accurate. That isn't taking those disadvantages into a account.
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@OP: Yes, it's overvalued. For classes with explicit damage boosters, it's not needed. They can diversify and be more interesting. Power Attack is great for classes without damage boosters like the vanilla fighter or classes that just get accuracy bonuses like rangers. On barbarians, paladins, inquisitors, and so on, it's simply overkill to the point of being boring.
I guess if the only "diversity" in the game existed during combat. The nice thing about 2H Power Attack builds is that you're done building your characters combat utility at level 1.
Pump STR to where you want it, buy a good 2H weapon, take your first feat, and... nothing else. Maybe you take Furious Focus somewhere down the line.
Everything else you do from this point forward builds "diversity" into your character. Compare that to Archers and TWF and Maneuver Master builds that have to focus on that one concept at every single level, and maybe... just maybe achieve it in the early double digits.
In my mind, Power Attack allows for diversity. Not the other way around.
For the Monk
I should have said "One of the best ways of getting a high AC without crippling your offence". Even so, 1d8+4 isn't exactly mind blowing. You have to burn ki along with a full attack to deal about the same damage as a figher or barbarian.Sorry - I thought my mention of Swift Drinker made it obvious that it was a Drunken Master - hence having as much ki as he wants, spending a swift action a point and going into fights with extra. (Frankly - I'm of the opinion that virtually all monks should be either Sohei for the static bonuses or Drunken Master for infinite ki. If they stacked - I'd do that.)
And no - it still isn't super high offense. But I've found that as long as the entire party builds with solid offense so that you don't have to worry about protecting the glass cannons, you don't need to focus so hard on offense. Find an Ashiel thread - they say the argument better than I do. :P
I don't disagree that a decent defense is better than neglecting defense for all out offense.
Remember, I am not trying to argue that AC is worthless. I am trying to argue that it requires ridiculously specific, devoted and (generally) offensively gimped builds to get AC to the extremely high levels required to make PA not worthwhile.
For most builds, an AC of 27 isn't acheivable at level 4 without crippling offense.
Oh yeah, and I checked what would happen with another iterative at level 11. 36 AC is when Power attack becomes bad. Still needs CR20 AC - pretty ridiculously above expected AC. At level 12, break even point bounces up again - I got 37.2, but I am editing the equation in the wolfram alpha window so I might have made a small mistake somewhere(assuming +6 belt by this stage). Still, absurdly high AC.
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Oh yeah, and I checked what would happen with another iterative at level 11. 36 AC is when Power attack becomes bad. Still needs CR20 AC - pretty ridiculously above expected AC. At level 12, break even point bounces up again - I got 37.2, but I am editing the equation in the wolfram alpha window so I might have made a small mistake somewhere(assuming +6 belt by this stage). Still, absurdly high AC.
Yeah - barbarians are probably the most 'nearly always use PA' class. Though I will say - at level 11 a 36 doesn't seem that unusual (though not common) for some CR11s, though it would be for the mooks.
For example - a CR 11 White Dragon has an AC of 30 when naked. With just +2 Mithril Chain Shirt barding(costs a fraction of their hoard - 9,000gp) they'd be at 36. Not to mention that Shield is on their spell list, and any rings they may have.
Also - at level 11 it wouldn't be rare to fight the occasional CR13+
So - they'd be at "usually use PA".
How are you getting 27AC. Also, how much wealth did you stick in it.It wasn't hard. 10 +4dex +3wis +1monk +3barkskin +1deflection +4mage armor, +1dodge = 27 AC / 20 Touch / 22 Flatfooted.
As I said - it wouldn't have been hard to get higher with a better dex/wis (but needed 18 Con for Swift Drinker), or a tiefling with Armor of the Pit or some such.
The only wealth is a +1 ring of protection and a wand of mage armor.
A fighter can get up there too without much more difficulty. 10 + 11fullplate +3shield +1dex +1deflection +1nat armor = 27 AC. A bit more wealth spent (+1 armor/shield & the AoNA vs the wand), but no bonus feat involved. (And his weapon is cheaper than an AoMF.) And again - it could be higher if feats were spent or a tower shield is used. (I don't like the Pathfinder towershield though - was nerfed since 3.5) For sword & board, a 24+ AC is basically a gimme by 4. They can hit 23 with no magic or feats at all.
Did you get these things using PC wealth or NPC wealth? The players will not be fighting NPC's with PC wealth.
As for power attack losing value, as the players get higher in level the chances of those 2nd and 3rd iterative attack hitting NPC's actually increases, but even before that happens power attack is still boosting DPR not decreasing it.
Anyway, here is a level 10 barbarian build.For that particular build - PA is a solid choice. I never said that it wasn't good for two-handed builds, especially barbarians (who get fewer static damage bonuses than most classes). All I said which you guys seem to take offense at is that it's overrated and certainly not always worth it.
Define "always" because I think you are making the common mistake here of taking things to an "all or nothing" extreme that people have a bad habit of doing around here.
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Define "always" because I think you are making the common mistake here of taking things to an "all or nothing" extreme that people have a bad habit of doing around here.
Anyway, here is a level 10 barbarian build.For that particular build - PA is a solid choice. I never said that it wasn't good for two-handed builds, especially barbarians (who get fewer static damage bonuses than most classes). All I said which you guys seem to take offense at is that it's overrated and certainly not always worth it.
I've actually said all along that PA is useful for two-handers as an option. Barbarians especially will usually use it. But I just don't think it's the 'be all end all' that many promote it to be.
Heck - I've seen threads where Swashbucklers are told by multiple people to boost their Str to 13 solely to pickup PA. It's certainly not worth a feat and stat points on a one-handed weapon.
Is PA a good feat for two-handed builds? Yes - though it becomes more situational as you level.
Do I think that it's generally overrated on these boards? Also yes. The general consensus is that its existence makes non-two-handed builds irrelevant. I disagree.
@OP: Yes, it's overvalued. For classes with explicit damage boosters, it's not needed. They can diversify and be more interesting. Power Attack is great for classes without damage boosters like the vanilla fighter or classes that just get accuracy bonuses like rangers. On barbarians, paladins, inquisitors, and so on, it's simply overkill to the point of being boring.
Boring is "subjective" and lack of need is also. In addition a lot of things are not "needed" depending on the situation that does not automatically make them "overvalued".
Now of course since overvalued is subjective maybe the OP should define what they mean by overvalued since there is already a power attack thread on this issue. Otherwise this debate is pointless because we may not be looking at things from the same baseline.
I've currently got a TWF-Power Attacking Paladin in Carrion Crown. Thanks to the Blade Tutor's Spirit spell from Melee Tactics Toolkit, I'm using PA ALLLL THE TIME. It's been great. :-)
Boring is "subjective" and lack of need is also. In addition a lot of things are not "needed" depending on the situation that does not automatically make them "overvalued".
Now of course since overvalued is subjective maybe the OP should define what they mean by overvalued since there is already a power attack thread on this issue. Otherwise this debate is pointless because we may not be looking at things from the same baseline.
A nice life protip is that personal opinions are inherently subjective measures. Arguing with someone's style and taste is folly. Never do I claim to be some scion of objectivity. Furthermore, I explicitly have stated elsewhere that I almost never try to change someone else's views. I'm all about the pure sharing of ideas, right or wrong. That whole "that's just like your opinion, man" kind of thinking is incredibly old and tiring.
Rangers just get accuracy bonuses???
Inquisitors are one of the few classes where power attack is not actually optimal on them, because of BANE.
Paladins and barbarians not getting power attack though? What they wanted to be useful while not smiting or raging?
I have to wonder if Buri got confused and is thinking of 3.5 rules. Rangers and Fighters both have more raw numbers damage boosters than the Barbarian does in Pathfinder.
Define "always" because I think you are making the common mistake here of taking things to an "all or nothing" extreme that people have a bad habit of doing around here.
Anyway, here is a level 10 barbarian build.For that particular build - PA is a solid choice. I never said that it wasn't good for two-handed builds, especially barbarians (who get fewer static damage bonuses than most classes). All I said which you guys seem to take offense at is that it's overrated and certainly not always worth it.
I've actually said all along that PA is useful for two-handers as an option. Barbarians especially will usually use it. But I just don't think it's the 'be all end all' that many promote it to be.
Heck - I've seen threads where Swashbucklers are told by multiple people to boost their Str to 13 solely to pickup PA. It's certainly not worth a feat and stat points on a one-handed weapon.
Is PA a good feat for two-handed builds? Yes.
Do I think that it's generally overrated on these boards? Also yes.
It actually helped a good deal on a swashbuckler I made, but not having it would not have crippled the build so I won't say it is mandatory for one handed builds. I think it falls into the "better to have than not have" category, and getting a 13 strength to get it is not too much to ask unless you are on 15 point buy, and other attributes are needed more.
As for "end all be all" I think it depends on your GM. It can add enough extra damage that it can possibly take you from 3 rounding to 2 rounding a creature, or 2 rounding to 1 rounding a creature. If your goal is to do a lot of damage with a two handed build, and maybe some one handed builds it is not a bad feat to take.
I don't think it singlehandedly takes a character from gimp to super character however, but it is good enough that I would need a very good reason not to take it.
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It actually helped a good deal on a swashbuckler I made, but not having it would not have crippled the build so I won't say it is mandatory for one handed builds. I think it falls into the "better to have than not have" category, and getting a 13 strength to get it is not too much to ask unless you are on 15 point buy, and other attributes are needed more.
It's worth 5 stat points plus a feat? I have to disagree. And a Swash gets virtually nothing else out of the increased strength. (Frankly - I think halflings are the best Swashbucklers - dump Str down to 5-6ish and just take Muscle of the Society so that encumbrance isn't an issue.)
Though again - much depends upon your GM and whether they throw naked monsters or geared up ones at you.
It actually helped a good deal on a swashbuckler I made, but not having it would not have crippled the build so I won't say it is mandatory for one handed builds. I think it falls into the "better to have than not have" category, and getting a 13 strength to get it is not too much to ask unless you are on 15 point buy, and other attributes are needed more.It's worth 5 stat points plus a feat? I have to disagree. And a Swash gets virtually nothing else out of the increased strength. (Frankly - I think halflings are the best Swashbucklers - dump Str down to 5-6ish and just take Muscle of the Society so that encumbrance isn't an issue.)
Though again - much depends upon your GM and whether they throw naked monsters or geared up ones at you.
13 strength is only 3 unless you are a small race that starts with an 8. If I was a small race I would not do it especially with a 15 point buy.
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13 strength is only 3 unless you are a small race that starts with an 8. If I was a small race I would not do it especially with a 15 point buy.
It's only 3 points from base - but if you aren't going for PA you'd want to dump Str down to 7 or 8. So the opportunity cost is at least 5. That was what I referring to. I guess that I should have spelled it out.
It actually helped a good deal on a swashbuckler I made, but not having it would not have crippled the build so I won't say it is mandatory for one handed builds. I think it falls into the "better to have than not have" category, and getting a 13 strength to get it is not too much to ask unless you are on 15 point buy, and other attributes are needed more.It's worth 5 stat points plus a feat? I have to disagree. And a Swash gets virtually nothing else out of the increased strength. (Frankly - I think halflings are the best Swashbucklers - dump Str down to 5-6ish and just take Muscle of the Society so that encumbrance isn't an issue.)
Though again - much depends upon your GM and whether they throw naked monsters or geared up ones at you.
How are you getting by without a semi-decent strength.
Chain shirt + rapier + backup rapier +buckler + longbow and ammo + dex belt + cloak of resistance + 4 pounds in misc stuff puts you at needing 13 str just to stay in light encumbrance. You could feasibly get by on 9 str if you don't mind carrying nothing but a weapon and armor(not a bucker - you need 10 str for that), but wouldn't it be better to just accept that you can't dump strength and run with power attack, since it only costs you maybe 2 points on the point buy at the most if you don't want your party to carry half of your gear.
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How are you getting by without a semi-decent strength.
There have been a couple threads on this - but here's the gist.
Med. with Str 8 & Muscle of the Society has a light load of 33lbs.
Mithril Breastplate (Agile) - 12.5lbs (Your other trait should be Armor Expert.)
Mithril Buckler - 2.5lbs
Mithril Rapier - 1lbs
Handy Haversack - 5lbs
Cloak of Resis - 1lbs
That's only 22lbs so far. 2/3 of max for a light load. Plenty of room for a couple mithril daggers and a darkwood longbow/arrows. You would have to stick with studded leather the first couple levels. But at mid levels you can just get Ant Haul or some such to make it a non-issue.
You could probably get away with Str 7.
It's easier with a halfling as, while he has 3/4 capacity, all of his stuff weighs 1/2.
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How are you getting by without a semi-decent strength.There have been a couple threads on this - but here's the gist.
Med. with Str 7 & Muscle of the Society has a light load of 30lbs.
Mithril Breastplate (Agile) - 12.5lbs
Mithril Buckler - 2.5lbs
Mithril Rapier - 1lbs
Handy Haversack - 5lbs
Cloak of Resis - 1lbsThat's only 22lbs so far. Barely 2/3 of max for a light load. Plenty of room for a couple mithril daggers and a darkwood longbow/arrows You would have to stick with studded leather the first couple levels. But at high levels you can just get Ant Haul or some such to make it a non-issue.
It's easier with a halfling as, while he has 3/4 capacity, all of his stuff weighs 1/2.
Let me rephrase.
How are you getting by without thousands of gp worth of mithral gear.
The gear you listed (9400gp of gear) puts you at the wbl of around a level 5 character. You also have no magic weapons, no magic armor(not such a big deal) and no stat boosters. You are sacrificing a lot to not have a decent strength. You basically can't even wear studded leather armor before getting mithral unless you get your companions to carry all the stuff that you don't use immediately in combat.
Sure, from level 10 onwards you will barely feel it, but you are paying an enormous tax on your WBL early on in order to have it slightly better later. Not a great idea for those who actually play low levels.
13 strength is only 3 unless you are a small race that starts with an 8. If I was a small race I would not do it especially with a 15 point buy.It's only 3 points from base - but if you aren't going for PA you'd want to dump Str down to 7 or 8. So the opportunity cost is at least 5. That was what I referring to. I guess that I should have spelled it out.
Its 3. Dumping is an assumption
These are the characters I love to surprise with shadows or ray of enfeeblement. :)There have been a couple threads on this - but here's the gist.
Med. with Str 8 & Muscle of the Society has a light load of 33lbs.
WHAT.
Stat dumping has a downside? Never.
At least casters can be productive when they are hiding in the back from the creature that can 1 hit kill them. Swashbucklers are actually expected to stab shadows.
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Let me rephrase.
How are you getting by without thousands of gp worth of mithral gear.
Well - for the first couple levels studded leather would weigh 7.5lbs more, you don't have the cloak or haversack yet, so you're up to 23.5lbs. If it's a major issue - you could probably get the wiz to cast mage armor on you like a monk does. Use a regular rapier for +1lb, and a darkwood buckler by level 2 easily.
You don't worry about a bow at low levels (like most melees you just make do with a couple of throwing weapons) and you're fine. Actually - you'd eventually want a light crossbow - not a longbow.
And non-combat gear is what pack animals are for. Most of my characters have one - low strength or not.
As to shadows - yes they'll be something of a weakness - but only if they catch the Swash flat-footed. Otherwise they'd just parry it. Shadows only have a +4 to hit. Normally that's pretty good as it's a touch - but it's not hard to parry. Unlike a normal tanky character - they have a decent touch AC besides.
I think Power Attack is good unless you are going to rely on CMB. Then no point taking power attack if you only going to trip and grapple if your goal is not to deal damage, which is very lawful good.
One thing I found very helpful at times is that when I got grappled, I can't really do much. So instead of trying to get out, I attack. With Vital Strike Mythic, I can make 4 times my damage with Power Attack and Arcane Strike as well as my other bonus from my strength and any other things I have. The chance of hitting while being grappled is not too bad, I made it with no harm to me most the time.
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I've never understood the appeal of this feat.
Sure, doing lots of damage is sexy, but DR to one side I would have thought the most efficient way of dealing damage was with lots of little blows rather than with a small number of big ones.
In most cases any damage beyond taking an opponent down to -1 hp is wasted. Power attacking barbarians with greataxes are frightening but most of the time smashing someone down to -50 is just wasted effort. If by the laws of probability you were destined to do 100 points of damage over 4 rounds, you'd be better off doing it with 4 x 25 pt blows than with 2 x 50 pt ones.
Richard
Wasted damage is a misconception that will get you killed.
Most of the time you do not know that HP total of your opponent. You can get a general sense based on descriptions provided by your GM but for the most part you cannot feasibly extrapolate that as "I will expend less effort".
"That guy whose taken a couple of gunshot wounds to the chest rather than potentially miss and waste bullets I'll run up and nut him to finish him off." Is not a thing ever said seriously in the history of violence.
Talking about the difference between -1 and -50 damage is meaningless as the result is ultimately the same.
The differences between 1 and -1 hit points are infinitely huge. It's the difference between a fully functional critter and a dead one.
The only wasted damage is the damage not killing your opponent.
So where does "small packets" stand against "big whollops" in this discussion?
Poorly honestly.
Every round you give your an opponent is a round you give them to kil you with.
Therefore you need to reduce the number of rounds opponents can do anything with.
So, more damage.
But wait, I hear the whimpering, doesn't power attack reduce accuracy and therefore can harm you? And does every melee class really need it if they have damage from other sources?
To the first, that's where optimization and teamwork laugh at you.
If you're having a hard time hitting an opponent on 11+ rolls you can simply choose not to use it.
However if one or more of your party members i providing a +2 bonus or more on attacks you should not ignore what is essentially free damage.
The thing to understand about the difference between attack bonuses and AC are mostly in favor of attack bonuses for 3/4 bab and above classes. 3/4 bab classes will need a minor buff to be consistent but most of those classes can actually buff themselves in quite major ways.
Now, certain builds, can do without it. But, I believe these to not do the same kind of damage as a power attacking build with nearly the same ease.
I must play in games with absurdly high AC enemies. I've never seen the to hit penalty as worth the added damage. I know that I have never played a character with power attack, and I'm not sure that I've ever seen it used as anything other than a pre-req in actual play other than one new player attempting to use it, missing a few times, and never using again.
Given that I've never seen a lot of value in extra attacks do to high probably of missing I probably do play in high AC games.
I must play in games with absurdly high AC enemies. I've never seen the to hit penalty as worth the added damage. I know that I have never played a character with power attack, and I'm not sure that I've ever seen it used as anything other than a pre-req in actual play other than one new player attempting to use it, missing a few times, and never using again.
Given that I've never seen a lot of value in extra attacks do to high probably of missing I probably do play in high AC games.
What sort of classes are you using it with. Also, how high is the AC you are typically going up against.
Power Attack is definitely a good feat.
Is it the absolute best feat for melee combat? That depends on what you are trying to do.
If all you care about is maximizing DPR, then Power Attack is usually a "must have." For a trip-focused character, TWF with light flail and sickle (or possibly a double-chained kama or kusarigama) will allow additional trip attempts every full attack. Or a TWF/Improved Shield Bash scimitar/light (bashing mithral quickdraw) shield paladin can actually do more damage against certain foes when using Smite Evil (especially at higher levels with bless weapon, Improved Critical (Scimitar), Shield Slam/Shield Master, and Bashing Finish); granted, against non-evil foes or when not using Smite Evil, the paladin will lag in DPR, but have a higher AC (possibly as much as +6 AC more).
As others have already mentioned, TWF with a high crit-range weapon (two kukris are usually the default choice), Improved Critical, Critical Focus, and some of the critical status-effect feats (Bleeding Critical, Critical Mastery, Staggering Critical, Stunning Critical, etc.) can be pretty nasty, even if the DPR is a bit lower than the Power Attacking barbarian with a falchion/nodachi.
Its more likely 2 or even 1. Basic adventuring kit is heavy and starving to death or dieing of exposure before you scrape up enough cash for a handy haversack is embarrassing.Its 3. Dumping is an assumption13 strength is only 3 unless you are a small race that starts with an 8. If I was a small race I would not do it especially with a 15 point buy.It's only 3 points from base - but if you aren't going for PA you'd want to dump Str down to 7 or 8. So the opportunity cost is at least 5. That was what I referring to. I guess that I should have spelled it out.
We were discussing how many point buy points it takes to get 13 strength. :)
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I must play in games with absurdly high AC enemies. I've never seen the to hit penalty as worth the added damage. I know that I have never played a character with power attack, and I'm not sure that I've ever seen it used as anything other than a pre-req in actual play other than one new player attempting to use it, missing a few times, and never using again.
Given that I've never seen a lot of value in extra attacks do to high probably of missing I probably do play in high AC games.
I must admit I'm slightly puzzled by these AC arguments too.
The character Rorn The Black over here:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/npcCodex/core/fighter.html
- for example, at CR 3 has an AC 20.
Perfectly reasonable encounter for a 1st level party (APL+2) and not in any way optimised for AC.
Richard
These are the characters I love to surprise with shadows or ray of enfeeblement. :)There have been a couple threads on this - but here's the gist.
Med. with Str 8 & Muscle of the Society has a light load of 33lbs.
Unless you're reducing them to 0 (and thus unconsciousness or death, which can't be done with Ray of Enfeeblement), their ability to carry stuff will be unaffected. Strength damage/penalties don't have an effect on encumbrance. Pathfinder got rid of a lot of the more annoying to calculate effects of ability damage.
Ability *drain* would do it though.
I think it is a bit over valued. DPR is a good metric, but rounds until the bad guy stops hitting you back is even better. I don' think the extra damage;s chances of dropping the big bad before he attacks make up for the chance of a miss keeping him up under most circumstances.
I must play in games with absurdly high AC enemies. I've never seen the to hit penalty as worth the added damage. I know that I have never played a character with power attack, and I'm not sure that I've ever seen it used as anything other than a pre-req in actual play other than one new player attempting to use it, missing a few times, and never using again.
Given that I've never seen a lot of value in extra attacks do to high probably of missing I probably do play in high AC games.
I must admit I'm slightly puzzled by these AC arguments too.
The character Rorn The Black over here:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/npcCodex/core/fighter.html
- for example, at CR 3 has an AC 20.
Perfectly reasonable encounter for a 1st level party (APL+2) and not in any way optimised for AC.
Richard
Most CR 1/2 encounters won't have an AC that high. That is an outlier, and so is the 1/2 CR paladin with similar AC. Most of the time the AC will be 16 or lower even for a CR 1 or CR 2. That makes power attack worth it if you are using a two handed weapon. However for those times when you do face someone with a really high AC, then it is better not to power attack, even if you are using a two handed weapon. Now if you can get some buffs before the end of the fight then it may be worth it to go back to power attacking.
Power Attack often leads to less rounds until the enemy is down. Mathmatically it works out that power attack is worth it. As for actual play well that depends on the luck of the dice. I tend to either roll well above the needed AC or so far below it that power attack is not much of an influence on whether I hit or miss. Occasionally I miss by enough that power attack made a difference, but it has also led to enemies dying sooner, enough times that those "almost hits" are still worth it. However if someone constantly misses by 1 or 2 due to power attacking, or just barely hits the AC needed then I can see why they don't care for it as much.
Fair point but don't you think you're better off planning / optimising for the APL+2 and APL+3 encounters than you are for the easier ones?
Richard
P.S. That was in answer to your previous post :-)
most dangerous APL+2 or +3 will be made up from several APL -1 to APL+1s. At least in my games.
But if your GM spend the monsters treasure on AC boosts like CLH suggest and dont go with monsters relatively close to what the bestiary suggest, then all sorts of strange things happens.
Fair point but don't you think you're better off planning / optimising for the APL+2 and APL+3 encounters than you are for the easier ones?
Richard
P.S. That was in answer to your previous post :-)
In which case those AC's typically don't go much higher.
An 18 attack stat Good bab character at level 1 is still looking at a 50% chance to smack the average AC of a CR3 critter.
Once you toss in buffs, circumstantial bonuses, flanking, and the like this number shoots up much higher.
Fair point but don't you think you're better off planning / optimising for the APL+2 and APL+3 encounters than you are for the easier ones?
Richard
P.S. That was in answer to your previous post :-)
If someone is optimising taking on APL+ encounters happens automatically. As I have said before as you go up in level your iterative attacks reliably landing, even while power attacking becomes a real thing, well maybe not that 4th attack, but power attack landing 3 out of 4 times is generally more damage than non-power attack landing 4 out of 4 times. <---Assumes two handed weapons.
As for the fighter you linked to, low level characters are much less able to handle AC, saves, and so on outside of the norm for their level. At higher levels it is much less of an issue. The party as a whole can debuff the bad guy and/or help the party member get enough bonuses to overcome the abnormally AC, high saves, etc etc.
What your link really showed was that low level characters are vulnerable.
In addition abnormally high AC does not prove a weakness in power attack any more than an abnormally high spell DC would show that a paladin's charisma bonus to saves is weak. It just shows that certain things can be too far outside of a party's or player's ability to handle it.
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I used to have a spreadsheet somewhere where I made my best guess of enemy AC as my party rolled hits or misses to help me decide to Power Attack/Deadly Aim (I'd say piranha strike, but I've never actually seen anyone use that). I remember that not power attacking exists in a sweet spot between Only hitting on a 20 (you should power attack then) and some variable high number where you have a really good chance of hitting. I found that most of my encounters bounced around the border line. Over time I found myself not power attacking for the rolls where Power Attacking was only slightly favorable mathematically because more consistent damage was more important than higher damage (to reduce the number of enemies, to disrupt casting, the miniBBEG seems close to death, etc.)
What sort of classes are you using it with. Also, how high is the AC you are typically going up against.
High enough that I thought that this was cited as an example of how even at the top end AC doesn't actually get all that high.
I must admit I'm slightly puzzled by these AC arguments too.
The character Rorn The Black over here:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/npcCodex/core/fighter.html
- for example, at CR 3 has an AC 20.
Perfectly reasonable encounter for a 1st level party (APL+2) and not in any way optimised for AC.
Richard
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It should also be noted that many people try to push their attack bonus high enough that they can hit with very low numbers. Even the NPC warrior class can hit(with less than a 10 on the die roll) with power attack against higher CR creatures if it is optimized with power attack going. Most PC classes get self buffs or bonuses and party buffs so it is a lot easier for them.
Of course depending on your GM and your party certain things may not be available to you, but for the purpose of a common baseline the DPR threads have shown the power attack is favorable despite antecedal evidence.
BA you may not have optimized your attack bonus enough to make PA worth it or your GM may have raised the AC enough intentionally to make PA not worth it. There could be other factors.
If the math shows that power attack was bad, then I would say that power attack was bad, but it is "good for me". Many people however, just use their experience as the baseline, but I think being objective is more important when trying to find an answer.
If someone on the boards has a different experience than I do where it leads to success or failure I often try to find out why. If I have an AC of X, and others say they have X+5 at a minimum, then I try to find out why. Does their GM give more loot than normal? Do they spend more money on AC? Does my GM not give enough loot? etc etc.
If someone on the boards has a different experience than I do where it leads to success or failure I often try to find out why. If I have an AC of X, and others say they have X+5 at a minimum, then I try to find out why. Does their GM give more loot than normal? Do they spend more money on AC? Does my GM not give enough loot? etc etc.
Some DMs suffer from "It's no fun if the dice aren't random" syndrome. That is, no matter how high you pump a score (skill check, saving throw, spell DC, attack bonus), you'll find that average enemies will have a ~50% chance of failure (need to roll a 10). SUPER TOUGH SCARY BOSS ENEMIES, you need at least a 15. It's especially annoying when you're by far the most accurate member of a party, and the DM scales the AC to you -- then the rest of the party has a snowball's chance in hell of actually landing a hit . . . Anyway, in a scenario like that, Power Attack is going to generally be a detriment, especially as you level up (since at level 1, PA is then a 10% accuracy penalty, but at level 20 it's a 60% accuracy penalty -- against the mooks. "Bosses" you then only hit on a natural 20.*).
I have a feeling there may be some "adjusting NPCs to make it challenging" going on behind the scenes here.
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Since reading this thread, I have been curious.
Where could I find a decent, relatively intuitive to use DPR calculator? I was interested in playing around with it a bit.
I know of 2 DPR calculaters. Both are excel based. I will give you the link to the easier one one.