Shaman ability:
The shaman's spirit animal also grants her special powers. This ability uses the same rules as the wizard's arcane bond class feature and is treated as a familiar, except as noted below.
Improved familiar prereqs:
Prerequisites: Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level (see below).
Explicitly yes: Spirit Animal qualifies for Improved Familiar without any problem. :)
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It really bothers me that this is not addressed in any official capacity. The phrase "same sort of creature" is not a mechanical concept. What does "sort" mean within the rules?
Does that mean it's okay to turn a raven into a celestial raven?
Does that mean the raven can become the Nosoi psychopomp familiar which is essentially a bird still?
Can I have an elemental familiar if I keep it in the same shape as the base animal? My raven familiar becomes a raven shaped fire elemental?
Is this all unnecessary guessing and in reality I can improve my familiar to anything?
I read the shaman as not getting any benefit if he picks improved familiar. He can take it yes. But he cannot actually benefit from it. Like the human with no tail and racial heritage(kobold) situation. Shamans are stuck with there starting spirit animal/familiar.
Improved familiar is a replacement for the other companion you don't need to have it be the "same" why? Because specific beats general.
I think that "The new spirit animal must be of the same sort of creature as the previous one." is a specific shaman rule so if you pick the general feat improved familiar it dosent change that rule.
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I think that "The new spirit animal must be of the same sort of creature as the previous one." is a specific shaman rule so if you pick the general feat improved familiar it dosent change that rule.
Feats are not general rules or they wouldn't be feats. There's plenty of feats that change the rules, under your reasoning you couldn't use greater grapple ever because maintaining a grapple would always be a standard action.
Also there's nothing game breaking about letting a shaman make use of the feat, for heaven's sake people lighten up and have some fun.
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I think that "The new spirit animal must be of the same sort of creature as the previous one." is a specific shaman rule so if you pick the general feat improved familiar it dosent change that rule.Feats are not general rules or they wouldn't be feats. There's plenty of feats that change the rules, under your reasoning you couldn't use greater grapple ever because maintaining a grapple would always be a standard action.
Also there's nothing game breaking about letting a shaman make use of the feat, for heaven's sake people lighten up and have some fun.
I havent seen anybody talk about Breaking the game. And "lighter up and have some fun." Is hardly a argument in a rules discussion. I Might allow it in a home game, but i think the rules are on the other side of the fence.
But unless there was some improved Familiars with a spirit like theme i think it is fluffwise a bit weak on a shaman.
Shaman has a line under it's spirit animal ability which states: Once selected, the spirit animal cannot be changed.
This seems to prevent Improved Familiar from working because it allows you to choose a different familiar, which the spirit animal ability explicitly prevents.
No it doesn't because taking the feat bypasses all that, normally you can't change but the feat explicitly gives you the change therefore specific beats general.
No it doesn't because taking the feat bypasses all that, normally you can't change but the feat explicitly gives you the change therefore specific beats general.Shaman has a line under it's spirit animal ability which states: Once selected, the spirit animal cannot be changed.
This seems to prevent Improved Familiar from working because it allows you to choose a different familiar, which the spirit animal ability explicitly prevents.
No the feat allow you to Pick from a larger list, but it dosent allow you to change the initial choice. This is not a problem on a normal wizard but the shaman have a specific rule that works that way.
I've got a shaman in a wrath game that has a pseudodragon familiar flavored to be a child of the openings silver dragon. I normally have heavens, lore, or air spirits, seems like that's pretty savoir dargony to me so I don't see how that's weak.
The above is relevant, which hopefully convinces you that the intent of the feat is that it immediately replaces the old familiar. If not then rule it your way for your games.
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We're not discussing weak/strong.
What we are discussing is if the specific text from the Shaman spirit animal ability can be overwritten by the specific text from the Improved Familiar feat.
While I personally do not see much harm in letting a shaman choose from an expanded list, the way the ability is written seems to not allow it.
Neither the wizard nor the witch are limited in such a way in their writing, so in this case it's not specific overrides general because the spirit shaman is quite explicit in the specific changes compared to the normal way familiars work.
But unless there was some improved Familiars with a spirit like theme i think it is fluffwise a bit weak on a shaman.
Weakness was brought up right here.
Much of the book is poorly edited and littered with as printed useless abilities, or non-explicit labels in abilities. Like the FCB of the shaman which might actually do nothing at all. This is what GMs are for, since they can't seem to be explicit in the rules, they have to make the decision of how things work. Which is a main reason why the specific beats general is used.
If they intended for shaman to not be eligible then it should have been explicit since it wasn't I can only assume that it works like for all others.
My only suggestion is for shamans that want a improved familiar in your games is to either retrain the choice or wait until they get the feat to choose.
The above is relevant, which hopefully convinces you that the intent of the feat is that it immediately replaces the old familiar. If not then rule it your way for your games.
It is a FAQ on sorcer and wizards neither of them have the wording the shaman have. A wizard can dismiss his familiar and get another one. A shaman can not. If the openings silver dragon is a creature of the spirit World and not some divine servant i think it sounds like exelent fluff, and not weak in that sense.
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I believe the last two hours of discussion highlights the problem. There's enough ambiguity and a lack of understanding of priority to know which side is correct. Onyxlion and Cap. Darling make good arguments but I haven't seen anyone point to a solid rule in the books to clarify which is the correct interpretation.
If it was a home game I wouldn't stress it as a GM and hope as a player my GM would allow me to use the feat. In Society Play, I'm nervous about my Shaman idea because it hinges on Improved Familiar (ridiculously cheesy Celestial Heaven Spirit Oni.) I've got plenty of other characters to play so it's not end of the world, but something official in understanding how Improved Familiar and Shaman's Spirit Animal interact would be very nice.
A celesteial spirit oni May meet opposition on a wizard:)
It really bothers me that this is not addressed in any official capacity. The phrase "same sort of creature" is not a mechanical concept. What does "sort" mean within the rules?
Does that mean it's okay to turn a raven into a celestial raven?
Does that mean the raven can become the Nosoi psychopomp familiar which is essentially a bird still?
Can I have an elemental familiar if I keep it in the same shape as the base animal? My raven familiar becomes a raven shaped fire elemental?Is this all unnecessary guessing and in reality I can improve my familiar to anything?
My Bones shaman started with a raven and went on with a nosoi. The nosoi can take the form of a raven. So could a quasit or a cassisian. No trouble here for me. ^_^
Once selected, the spirit animal cannot be changed.
The new spirit animal must be of the same sort of creature as the previous one.
I would say you could not use Improved Familiar to get a different familiar than what you initially selected. It seems fair to allow you to make it Celestial/Fiendish/etc, since it is still the same animal, but you couldn't select, say, an imp.
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A celesteial spirit oni May meet opposition on a wizard:)
Aasimar with Celestial Servant and Improved Familiar does weird reality breaking things. I basically tried to find the most ridiculous combination for a familiar and stumbled upon this weird hiccup in the Shaman abilities. I don't even mind if it's not possible, but I dislike the ambiguity of the sentence in the Shaman description and want someone who had a hand in its development to explain the intentions.
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Another example I figure works is a shaman's viper becoming a Raktavarna, (with the suitable boon, of course.)
He's the same in spirit, but now he's improved by growing familiar with all of his previously-dormant abilities.
Edit: Opps, looks I reanimated a dead thread.
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I really hope they "errata"/change Improved Familiar at some point...
Ta-da! Since I've already resurrected this thread once, I might as well point out the following here, too:
Improved Familiars: There are various ways for characters other than arcane spellcasters to gain familiars at this point, and some of those options even grant Improved Familiar as a bonus feat, but technically each Improved Familiar option requires a certain arcane spellcaster level to take it. Does that mean that non-arcane characters with Improved Familiar have a dead feature? How does it work? If it does work, can I take an Improved Familiar as some kind of variant familiar or a temporary familiar like the occultist’s soulbound puppet?
The Improved Familiar description was written back when only arcane spellcasters could have familiars, and it wasn’t sufficiently future-proofed. To that end, you can always substitute your effective wizard level for the purpose of determining your familiar’s abilities for “arcane spellcaster level” to determine the available improved familiars for your character. In general, you can take Improved Familiars for class-granted variant familiars like a shaman’s spirit animal, with a few exceptions: First, temporary familiars like the occultist’s soulbound puppet can’t become Improved Familiars from the Improved Familiar feat, and those class features don’t qualify you to take the Improved Familiar feat. Second, tumor familiars, as lumps of flesh in the shape of animals, can’t become Improved Familiars. In other cases, treat Improved Familiar as if it was an archetype to see if it stacks with other familiar options: since the two things it alters from a regular familiar are that it removes the ability to speak with animals of its kind and it prevents changing the creature type for non-animals, you couldn’t make a familiar that changes the creature type of non-animals or alters or removes speak with animals of its kind an Improved Familiar.
You can take the feat, however:
If a spirit animal is lost or dies, it can be replaced after 24 hours through a special ritual that consumes material components worth 500 gp per shaman level. The ritual takes 8 hours to complete. The new spirit animal must be of the same sort of creature as the previous one.So generally, you won't really be able to make use of the Improved Familiar feat.
There are a few tricks to get around this hitch, but it's not straightforward.
All that says is: if your improved familiar dies, you replace it with another improved familiar of the same type.
And you must take improved familiar at lvl1, so that the improved familiar is your first spirit animal, and will be replaced by the same familiar if it dies.
And you must take improved familiar at lvl1, so that the improved familiar is your first spirit animal, and will be replaced by the same familiar if it dies.
That is not what it says.
Replacement of familiar is completely separate from familiar choice. By previous, the point of reference is the shaman's familiar at the time of that familiar's death.
Example: my previous familiar, an imp, died. I had to replace him with a new imp.
Improved Familiar is not a legal choice at fist level, for any class. The lowest level with a legal familiar choice is 3rd level.
In the specific case of the shaman (and note that they have a 'spirit animal', not a 'familiar' in the first place), there is a specific rule that they can't get rid of their spirit animal, and that if the animal must be replaced, it must be replaced by the same kind of animal.
Ergo, applying 'improved familiar' to a shaman is already a stretch of the RAW, and probably of the RAI too even if it's not a game breaker. and, if the feat is to apply to a shaman at all, it must apply to its first spirit animal/familiar to begin with.
In the specific case of the shaman (and note that they have a 'spirit animal', not a 'familiar' in the first place), there is a specific rule that they can't get rid of their spirit animal, and that if the animal must be replaced, it must be replaced by the same kind of animal.
Ergo, applying 'improved familiar' to a shaman is already a stretch of the RAW, and probably of the RAI too even if it's not a game breaker. and, if the feat is to apply to a shaman at all, it must apply to its first spirit animal/familiar to begin with.
1. The FAQ explicitly permits shaman to take improved familiar. A choice not available at 1st level.
2. You are applying that sentence out of context. Way out of context.
I'm glad I read this thread. I hadn't noticed the specific callout to Shaman in that FAQ before.