Forgive me if someone has asked this, or if you've already accommodated such a request, but would it be possible for you to please make a compilation of links to your works in progress? (either here in the thread, or maybe on your alias' wish list.)
I'm enjoying this thread and the spirit behind it by the way.
That is a great idea. Having it on his profile would make it easy to find.
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Zedth,
Thank you for your contribution to this thread.
I have a question about steel. The rule of thumb for costs in the Dark Sun 2e core rules was this: All nonmetal items cost 1% of the price listed. All metal items cost the price listed. This is of course based on the typical gold standard of D&D. My question about your conversion is this:
Why are steel items 20x cost instead of 100x ? It seems like a pretty hefty "discount" on the highly sought-after steel, compared to the source material's emphasis on the % value scale.
I'm glad that you've asked that question. The simple answer is this: I thought that it was too punitive. Steel on Athas is rare, to be sure, and certainly out of the price-range of the common person. I could have priced it at 100x, but then you'd be paying 200cp for a steel dagger. I felt that 40cp was a bit more reasonable. It's a fortune in the eyes of someone who is likely not going to see more than maybe 10cp a year. A steel dagger represents four years of work (and no other expenses). A steel short-sword represents twenty years of work (and no other expenses). I guess I just found it to be more in keeping with the idea that while steel is rare, it's also able to be had if you're willing to sacrifice enough.
This also means that a level 1 character will be able to afford some steel, and I was okay with that. Sure, if the party's fighter wants to blow 300cp on a steel scimitar (as opposed to 1,500cp), it's not going to be game-breaking, but it's going to be a hefty chunk of their wealth by level (at this point, it's 38% of their wealth by level to own a steel scimitar at level 2; at a 100x factor, it's 91% of their wealth by level to own a steel scimitar at level 3).
I've looked around your alias' page and I don't see any "wish list" Dark Sun Conversion addition yet. The thread is getting pretty long and I haven't had time to comb through it as thoroughly as I'd like to. I'm sorta just finding stuff as I go along, but I'd love to get a more comprehensive look at your content thus far. Forgive me if someone has asked this, or if you've already accommodated such a request, but would it be possible for you to please make a compilation of links to your works in progress? (either here in the thread, or maybe on your alias' wish list.)
I'm enjoying this thread and the spirit behind it by the way.
I hadn't thought of doing that, and I just might do it.
I don't want the conversion to be easy to find right now, because I'm still working on it. I'm going back and tweaking things, rewriting passages, and editing, so the project is unfinished - even the parts that I've discussed at great length before. I'm the sort of person that doesn't like to put the product together until it's ready to go out, and I've got some writing yet to do there.
The page numbers in the final product aren't the same as the ones that have been previewed before, because I've added in material. I'd hate to see someone cobble together a "finished conversion" before I'm actually finished with it. I know I'm kind of weird that way, but I'm all about the quality of the finished product.
I don't want the conversion to be easy to find right now, because I'm still working on it...///...I'd hate to see someone cobble together a "finished conversion" before I'm actually finished with it. I know I'm kind of weird that way, but I'm all about the quality of the finished product.
100% understandable.
I am looking forward to future posts and topics to discuss; In particular I'm looking forward to your current undertaking -- the bestiary/monsters conversion effort.
The bestiary has slowed me down considerably. I'm about halfway through the Dragon King entry; partly because I'm placing the "mythic prestige class" into the entry. It's requiring a few alterations to work out to be how I feel it fit in best with the original setting. Everyone takes their little liberties when converting material, and I suppose it's my turn.
That's an excellent question, and I do plan on making a brief table with Survival modifiers on Athas. Finding water isn't something that you can just take a 10 on and be fine, and finding water is really the big issue.If you have suggestions, I'm open to them, but right now, I'm sorting through monsters (I've finished Bestiary 1, Bestiary 2 and Bestiary 3) to list as possible monsters to encounter. Then I was moving on to writing up Athasian-specific monsters.
Here is a rough draft:
Players may use the Survival Skill to find water. DCs listed are to find 1/2 gallon of water, +3 DC for every additional half gallon found. Using this skill takes 1 hour, movement reduced to 1/2 speed.
Grasslands/farmlands................DC 10
Forest Ridge............................DC 12
Scrub Plains............................DC 17
Rocky Badlands/Stony Barrens....DC 25
Salt Flats................................DC 35
Note that a successful check finds 1/2 gallon of water, so higher checks will be needed to survive for typical characters. (example, a DC 20 in the scrub plains would procure 1 gallon of water.)
Note that medium characters need to consume 1 gallon of water a day to stay hydrated and to prevent Con damage. Small characters need 1/2 this, large characters need 4x this.
------
I figured water would be relatively easy to find/extract if you're in the forest ridge or near a city state's farms/grasslands, so made it a low DC.
I figured the Scrub Plains wouldn't be easy, but totally doable for someone trained in the skill. This goes along well with the original Water Find theme.
I figured that anything more barren than the scrub plains would be exponentially more difficult to find water in, thus the higher DCs.
I took a leaf out of another Paizo poster's book as the basis for these DCs, but I spun them to fit more what I found to be appropriate for Dark Sun. It is a delicate balance to not trivialize the need for water, but not making the goal out of reach.
What do you guys think about the DCs?
I have no idea what a forest ridge is but I would think that if it is near a forest some source of water is around for any animals so I would keep the DC at 10.
I would then drop the scrub plains down to 15, and salt flats to a 30
If that con damage rule is a new rule I would not suggest using it. X degrees is X degrees no matter what planet you are on, so if the same temperature is not making people take con damage in Eberron or Golarion, I dont think it should be in Dark Sun either.
I plan on keeping the damage rules the same, although this is a good framework to stay with on difficulty challenges.
I'm almost done with the Dragon. Making him true to the setting has made him a CR 30+ monster to start. Then the Dragon Metamorphosis made him a mythic creature as planned. He was a beast, no pun intended, to stat out.
Bodhizen--
I'm looking forward to your work on the Dragon and the other Athasian beasties. I can imagine it is quite an undertaking.
Wraith--
I need to double check but I'm relatively sure that the con damage was a part of the source material. The notion being that Athas is not only super hot temperature-wise but is also ultra dusty, salty, and more draining in general. Going without water in Athas was meant to be a death sentence.
(I'll flip through my books tonight and try to find the specific rules.)
For argument's sake,
-DC 10 for the 'Forest Ridge' is probably fair. I upped the DC to 12 based on the notion that water would be easy-ish to find at DC 10 in the farmlands, and only marginally more difficult in the wild. But DC 10 is fine.
-I'm not firm on the 'Scrub Plains' DC, so lowering it 15 wouldn't be outrageous.
-I do feel inclined to keep the 'Salt Flats' DC extremely high because there is virtually no water there to be found. High level tracker/ranger or not, if the water simply isn't there, it cannot be found.
-Regarding 'Stony Barrens', last night I read the Wanderer's Journal from the original Dark Sun box, looking up stony barrens and found that they are lousy with cacti. This means to me that the DC 25 that I placed is simply too high. One could find adequate water by hacking through enough flora, so I'm thinking that the DC should be lowered to 15-17 to be on par with the 'Scrub Plains'.
-------
Taking into account Wraithstrike's input, here is a new rough draft for your perusal:
Bolded text represents updates.
Water Find
Players may use the Survival Skill to find water. DCs listed are to find 1/2 gallon of water, +3 DC for every additional half gallon found. Using this skill takes 1 hour, movement reduced to 1/2 speed.
Note that a successful check finds 1/2 gallon of water, so higher checks will be needed to survive for typical characters. (example, a DC 18 in the scrub plains would procure 1 gallon of water.)
Note that medium characters need to consume 1 gallon of water a day to stay hydrated and to prevent Con damage. Small characters need 1/2 this, large characters need 4x this.
Question for debate: How often should one be able to use Survival checks for 'Water Find' ?
In the source material, the non-weapon proficiency 'water find' was usable only once a day and would only function for the person with the proficiency.
For Pathfinder we can take into account progressive skill levels (ranks in Survival) and less arbitrary ruling than happened so often in the old days. (such as the 1/day rule, for no apparent reason)
I would propose it should able to be used once per day, per terrain type. Or possibly once every X miles of travel, per terrain type.
Retries in the same area don't make sense to me.
Question for debate: How often should one be able to use Survival checks for 'Water Find' ?
In the source material, the non-weapon proficiency 'water find' was usable only once a day and would only function for the person with the proficiency.
For Pathfinder we can take into account progressive skill levels (ranks in Survival) and less arbitrary ruling than happened so often in the old days. (such as the 1/day rule, for no apparent reason)
I would propose it should able to be used once per day, per terrain type. Or possibly once every X miles of travel, per terrain type.
Retries in the same area don't make sense to me.
Honestly, trying again makes sense to me. If at first, you don't succeed... I'd have the standard retry penalty, though (+5 to the DC). If you want to try 5 times in the same location, enjoy that +25 DC penalty.
It's taken me quite a bit of time, but I think I have a working Dragon King entry.
I plan on keeping the damage rules the same, although this is a good framework to stay with on difficulty challenges.
I'm almost done with the Dragon. Making him true to the setting has made him a CR 30+ monster to start. Then the Dragon Metamorphosis made him a mythic creature as planned. He was a beast, no pun intended, to stat out.
Thanks. I was not even going to stat one out unless I ran some really high level game, but I doubt that I will ever go about 20. However if the players go off the rails it will be nice to have something to go by. Hopefully they wont do that.
Bodhizen--
I'm looking forward to your work on the Dragon and the other Athasian beasties. I can imagine it is quite an undertaking.Wraith--
I need to double check but I'm relatively sure that the con damage was a part of the source material. The notion being that Athas is not only super hot temperature-wise but is also ultra dusty, salty, and more draining in general. Going without water in Athas was meant to be a death sentence.
(I'll flip through my books tonight and try to find the specific rules.)
I dont know how things worked in 2nd edition so you may be right. I never even knew it had ability damage. In the 3rd edition version published online I never saw it, but if you find it let me know. I will likely change the temperature for my own games so it makes sense for Athas to do con damage, not that I expect anyone from Eberron or Golarion to show up in Athas. However, it is an idea I had to do something similar to a DC/Marvel crossover, but with settings instead, one day.
Thanks. I was not even going to stat one out unless I ran some really high level game, but I doubt that I will ever go about 20. However if the players go off the rails it will be nice to have something to go by. Hopefully they wont do that.I plan on keeping the damage rules the same, although this is a good framework to stay with on difficulty challenges.
I'm almost done with the Dragon. Making him true to the setting has made him a CR 30+ monster to start. Then the Dragon Metamorphosis made him a mythic creature as planned. He was a beast, no pun intended, to stat out.
Well, if you want to have an encounter with the Dragon, you should be able to. I've also statted out the Tyrant of Tyr, just in case you want to take him on. I've since moved back into the regular bestiary. This part just takes a really long time.
I haven't read the full entry yet but your Dragon is looking good.
What are you working on now/next? More bestiary material?
I haven't read the full entry yet but your Dragon is looking good.
What are you working on now/next? More bestiary material?
I'm slowly chewing my way through the bestiary right now. It's very slow going.
It's taken me quite a bit of time, but I think I have a working Dragon King entry.
I think he needs to be stronger. There are monsters in the bestiaries and in AP's with much lower CR's who seem to be more difficult to deal with.
It's taken me quite a bit of time, but I think I have a working Dragon King entry.I think he needs to be stronger. There are monsters in the bestiaries and in AP's with much lower CR's who seem to be more difficult to deal with.
At this point I agree granted I should probably have a much more in depth look to be fair.
Two things I noticed. Low saves and low stats. ie: only 24 str?
It's taken me quite a bit of time, but I think I have a working Dragon King entry.I think he needs to be stronger. There are monsters in the bestiaries and in AP's with much lower CR's who seem to be more difficult to deal with.At this point I agree granted I should probably have a much more in depth look to be fair.
Two things I noticed. Low saves and low stats. ie: only 24 str?
I'm certainly open to suggestions on how to address this. What I know is that, based upon the original rules to convert a defiler/psionicist into a dragon and the third edition conversion from Dragon/Dungeon Magazine, there were not specific ability increases, and so if you feel that Borys does not present a high enough challenge, I'd love some assistance in beefing him up.
It's taken me quite a bit of time, but I think I have a working Dragon King entry.I think he needs to be stronger. There are monsters in the bestiaries and in AP's with much lower CR's who seem to be more difficult to deal with.At this point I agree granted I should probably have a much more in depth look to be fair.
Two things I noticed. Low saves and low stats. ie: only 24 str?
The low saves were the first things I noticed. Then as I looked more I noticed other stats.
@Bodhizen
I know they are called "dragons", but my question is are they actual dragons per the pathfinder rules or is that just the name. From there it is easier to push him up in CR while staying true to your idea.
Bluff or Sleight of Hand can be used to conceal Verbal or Somatic components at time of casting, opposed by Sense Motive or Perception normally, or Spellcraft if higher.
Is this a dark sun rule?
I'm certainly open to suggestions on how to address this. What I know is that, based upon the original rules to convert a defiler/psionicist into a dragon and the third edition conversion from Dragon/Dungeon Magazine, there were not specific ability increases, and so if you feel that Borys does not present a high enough challenge, I'd love some assistance in beefing him up.It's taken me quite a bit of time, but I think I have a working Dragon King entry.I think he needs to be stronger. There are monsters in the bestiaries and in AP's with much lower CR's who seem to be more difficult to deal with.At this point I agree granted I should probably have a much more in depth look to be fair.
Two things I noticed. Low saves and low stats. ie: only 24 str?
Not sure how much help I'll be but I'll take a look at it this weekend.
I've only been casually following this thread. Kind of curious when this will be finished?
What format? Will it be editable?
I'm certainly open to suggestions on how to address this. What I know is that, based upon the original rules to convert a defiler/psionicist into a dragon and the third edition conversion from Dragon/Dungeon Magazine, there were not specific ability increases, and so if you feel that Borys does not present a high enough challenge, I'd love some assistance in beefing him up.It's taken me quite a bit of time, but I think I have a working Dragon King entry.I think he needs to be stronger. There are monsters in the bestiaries and in AP's with much lower CR's who seem to be more difficult to deal with.At this point I agree granted I should probably have a much more in depth look to be fair.
Two things I noticed. Low saves and low stats. ie: only 24 str?
Not sure how much help I'll be but I'll take a look at it this weekend.
I've only been casually following this thread. Kind of curious when this will be finished?
What format? Will it be editable?
It will be in pdf format. There is no set deadline
Cool thanks.
Was thinking more rough estimate than deadline.
On another note I should crack open the old box set this weekend and look at Brom's amazing art work.
are there any plans on doing a version of this that uses the psychic system from the upcoming Occult Adventures instead of the power point system?
My group is one that isn't a fan of the older system and I would like to see how the newer system would be used in Arthas.
@Bodhizen
I know they are called "dragons", but my question is are they actual dragons per the pathfinder rules or is that just the name. From there it is easier to push him up in CR while staying true to your idea.
That's a good question Wraith. If The Dragon is to be considered a true dragon (despite the utter lack of dragons on Athas other than The Dragon and other up-and-coming sorcerer kings/queens) I think one small way to pay homage is to add full dragon senses.
Dragon Senses (Ex): Dragons have darkvision 120 ft. and blindsense 60 ft. They see four times as well as a human in dim light and twice as well in normal light.
are there any plans on doing a version of this that uses the psychic system from the upcoming Occult Adventures instead of the power point system?
My group is one that isn't a fan of the older system and I would like to see how the newer system would be used in Arthas.
I it could have both since the Occult system is not really psionics, but psychic magic. If the GM just prefers to not have psionics at all then replacing it with psyhic magic could work. As for the dragons he should just have to swap the psion level for the full caster psychic and not do a lot of reworking.
Of course Boz might be nice and do that for you, but I cant' comment on that.
@Bodhizen
I know they are called "dragons", but my question is are they actual dragons per the pathfinder rules or is that just the name. From there it is easier to push him up in CR while staying true to your idea.
Well, it's unclear at present. By the time they're fully developed, they will be dragons. Exactly where that transition occurs is not something that I've pinned down just yet. My initial thought process is that they will remain humanoids from Dragon King levels 1 through 3, become monstrous humanoids from 4 through 7 or 9 (I'm not sure which) and then be labeled as dragons either at level 8, 9 or 10 (again, I'm not sure which).
are there any plans on doing a version of this that uses the psychic system from the upcoming Occult Adventures instead of the power point system?
My group is one that isn't a fan of the older system and I would like to see how the newer system would be used in Arthas.
Yes. The plan is to make the conversion compatible with both the Dreamscarred Press Ultimate Psionics materials and Paizo's Occult Adventures. So, it's not going to be complete until Occult Adventures comes out at the very least.
That's a good question Wraith. If The Dragon is to be considered a true dragon (despite the utter lack of dragons on Athas other than The Dragon and other up-and-coming sorcerer kings/queens) I think one small way to pay homage is to add full dragon senses.
Dragon Senses (Ex): Dragons have darkvision 120 ft. and blindsense 60 ft. They see four times as well as a human in dim light and twice as well in normal light.
Duly noted.
are there any plans on doing a version of this that uses the psychic system from the upcoming Occult Adventures instead of the power point system?
My group is one that isn't a fan of the older system and I would like to see how the newer system would be used in Arthas.
I it could have both since the Occult system is not really psionics, but psychic magic. If the GM just prefers to not have psionics at all then replacing it with psyhic magic could work. As for the dragons he should just have to swap the psion level for the full caster psychic and not do a lot of reworking.
Of course Boz might be nice and do that for you, but I cant' comment on that.
Bodhi, please. :)
I probably will have either some quick-rules for conversion, or I might just actually have two sets of rules. There's going to be conversion rules for the classes, period. Really, it's just the bestiary that might change, so it might have to have two bestiaries.
The low saves were the first things I noticed. Then as I looked more I noticed other stats.
Please be more specific so that I can properly address the deficiencies. Thank you!
The low saves were the first things I noticed. Then as I looked more I noticed other stats.Please be more specific so that I can properly address the deficiencies. Thank you!
Off the top of my head physical attacks. AC is really low. Hit points also.
Off the top of my head physical attacks. AC is really low. Hit points also.
It may be that I'm trusting Hero Lab's custom monster builder to assist me. Care to take a whack at a few refinements?
It may be that I'm trusting Hero Lab's custom monster builder to assist me. Care to take a whack at a few refinements?
Off the top of my head physical attacks. AC is really low. Hit points also.
I like Herolab, but I don't think it does a good enough job of at rating CR to be trusted on abnormal creatures.
The dragon's actual creature type will affect Saves, BAB, skills, and so on. Even with that not having racial HD will affect some things.
For now I will assume they are dragon's in name only.
Another thing which I am surprised I forgot about was this creature, supposedly the most powerful being in DarkSun not being a 20th level caster especially with it being a CR 39(8 CR 30 monsters are only a CR 36.
I see you have gone with wizard and psychic warrior.
These dragon levels are not good enough to count as actual increases in levels/CR on their own despite granting some nice abilities and a BAB bonus.
They also need to advance saves, hit points, skills and so on. <--My current opinion, but I could be wrong.
I think we should start off making him a CR 30(before Dragon levels come into play, and then adding the dragon levels to see how they impact him. This might make him end up being a CR 40, but we can always tune him back down and we have a few months to get this done.
Looking at the mythic advance chart here I can take an educated guess at how it would go if it did extend to 40, and try to make a chart.
The chart will not be there to hold us hostage, but as a guide.
PS: I noticed the dragon gains d20 die as hit dice. Is that supposed to be d12?
It may be that I'm trusting Hero Lab's custom monster builder to assist me. Care to take a whack at a few refinements?
Off the top of my head physical attacks. AC is really low. Hit points also.I like Herolab, but I don't think it does a good enough job of at rating CR to be trusted on abnormal creatures.
The dragon's actual creature type will affect Saves, BAB, skills, and so on. Even with that not having racial HD will affect some things.
For now I will assume they are dragon's in name only.
Another thing which I am surprised I forgot about was this creature, supposedly the most powerful being in DarkSun not being a 20th level caster especially with it being a CR 39(8 CR 30 monsters are only a CR 36.
I see you have gone with wizard and psychic warrior.
These dragon levels are not good enough to count as actual increases in levels/CR on their own despite granting some nice abilities and a BAB bonus.
So here's how this worked out.
Borys (the Dragon) was a human first. He got 18 levels of wizard, and 18 levels of psychic warrior. That made him a CR 36 character according to Hero Lab. That was before any mythic tiers were added, or any dragon king levels. On top of that CR 36, he got 8 tiers of Champion, which pushed him to CR 39.
Then, on top of that, he got 10 levels of Dragon King, which didn't push the CR at all (because I didn't program levels of Dragon King into the Hero Lab system, I just added on the abilities via spell adjustments (to increase his size and give him Darkvision) and other adjustments (to give him Spell Resistance, Power Resistance, and bonus feats from being a Dragon King). It won't let me add in natural attacks without slapping on templates that also add in other things (like Ability increases), which I don't want to do, so I had to extrapolate on the attacks a little bit. None of that affected Borys' CR.
So far, I think that you and I are on the same page with Hero Lab's estimate.
They also need to advance saves, hit points, skills and so on. <--My current opinion, but I could be wrong.
The Dragon King levels advance hit points (the d20 was not an error, it was intentional) because that's easy enough to calculate in. Dragon King levels currently give no added bonuses to saving throws or skill points (which we can change); I didn't add them in because they're monster levels on top of a being with loads of skill points and calculated saves anyway. Plus, his saves are pretty much right in line with Ancient (real) dragons. I compare to an ancient red dragon (which I realise is only CR 19), and they're about the same. This means that Borys' saves are low, but I don't have a ton of CR 30+ monsters of the dragon type to compare to; if I compare to the CR 30 Mantis God or Demon Lord Pazuzu, for example, his saves are about 10 points to low, which is easy enough to fix. The skill points are around 380 points lower than Pazuzu's, which again, is easy enough to fix, but they're roughly 250 points higher than the Mantis God's so there's no real consistency there.
I think we should start off making him a CR 30 (before Dragon levels come into play, and then adding the dragon levels to see how they impact him. This might make him end up being a CR 40, but we can always tune him back down and we have a few months to get this done.
Starting off by making him a CR 30 (before Dragon King levels) monster would be unfavorable. The requirements to become a Dragon King (which I feel are more than reasonable) require 9th level spellcasting (Wizard 17 or Sorcerer 18) and 6th level manifestation of psychic powers (Psion 11 or Psychic Warrior 16), so we could push him down to CR 28 based upon his pre-Dragon King class levels. This is going to weaken him, and I felt that the Wizard/Psychic Warrior combination most accurately represented his might.
I could have made him a witch (17th level), but I made witches anathema to the power of sorcerer-kings on purpose, so that would have been silly. I could also have constructed him as an arcanist (18th level), but I kind of wanted to stick to the basics on the arcane side.
I could also have gone with Mesmerist (16th), Occultist (16th), Spiritualist (16th) or Psychic (12th; which might have been the best Occult class to go, but then I should require 9th level psychic spells there, requiring 18th level) on the "occult" side of things, but Occult Adventures is not complete yet, so I don't have a great feel for the power balance. So... For now, I stuck with Ultimate Psionics classes.
I don't mind reconfiguring Borys. He's far more powerful than the original Dragon of Tyr/Athas (he had multiple names/titles), even before we address where we feel he should be.
Looking at the mythic advance chart here I can take an educated guess at how it would go if it did extend to 40, and try to make a chart.
The chart will not be there to hold us hostage, but as a guide.
I'm all about following a guideline to help, but not constrain.
PS: I noticed the dragon gains d20 die as hit dice. Is that supposed to be d12?
Nope. He's a dragon, not a barbarian.
Dragons the creature type have d12's. That is why I ask.
I think 20 levels of wizard would be better. A level of wizard is likely going to be more useful than a mythic tier. I will give more details when I get home.
Dragons the creature type have d12's. That is why I ask.
I think 20 levels of wizard would be better. A level of wizard is likely going to be more useful than a mythic tier. I will give more details when I get home.
True as that may be, this is a creature that metamorphoses into a dragon that requires mythic tiers to even begin to pull off. I felt that d20s were good.
I don't think that 20 levels of wizard are where I want to go with this. Borys isn't the most powerful spellcaster of his peers, even though he's more powerful, individually, than any of his peers.
I look forward to your input, as always.
36 class levels is a CR 35. The problem is that saves and BAB start to get unwieldy which is why the 3.5 epic rules had special exceptions once you got more than 20 levels. I am also guessing that is why Paizo went with the mythic rules which would not allow you to take 18 levels in 2 classes.
I would give 14 levels of wizard and 6 levels of psychic warrior. That puts him a CR 19. Giving 25 point buy and PC wealth is a CR 20. The dragon levels can probably be made to equate to actual level increases. So assuming he takes all 10 that puts him at a CR 30. 9 mythic tiers put him at CR 39.
The problem is that he is still a 14 level wizard and 6th level psychic warrior.
I have a few ideas but they depend on if you want this guy to have special rules or if you want to make general rules that all dragons have to follow. I will check back in a few hours.
36 class levels is a CR 35. The problem is that saves and BAB start to get unwieldy which is why the 3.5 epic rules had special exceptions once you got more than 20 levels. I am also guessing that is why Paizo went with the mythic rules which would not allow you to take 18 levels in 2 classes.
Generally speaking, sure, but this is why I use programs to calculate this out. I don't think that being 1 CR off is going to be problematic, since we're not even saying that the Dragon King levels add to CR (which they should).
I would give 14 levels of wizard and 6 levels of psychic warrior. That puts him a CR 19. Giving 25 point buy and PC wealth is a CR 20. The dragon levels can probably be made to equate to actual level increases. So assuming he takes all 10 that puts him at a CR 30. 9 mythic tiers put him at CR 39.
The problem is that he is still a 14 level wizard and 6th level psychic warrior.
Yes, that is a problem. I'm actually good with these characters having more than 20 total levels; they're meant to be incredibly powerful beings. I could have written the Dragon King levels to add to spellcaster and psionic levels, but I feel that's more a kludge than an elegant solution. Also, do not forget that mythic tiers only add half (rounded down) to CR.
I have a few ideas but they depend on if you want this guy to have special rules or if you want to make general rules that all dragons have to follow. I will check back in a few hours.
I'm find on having special rules. It should be possible for others to become dragon kings, but I don't think it should be easy. I'm fine with the dragon king initiation to be more plot-based than "gain X levels", which is why I kept the bit about needing the Dark Lens.
This conversion is not dead (yet). I got sidetracked by a paying gig.
Understandable
I'm still popping in, keeping a lookout for new posts. I'm looking forward to more discussion, but money is money.
I believe that wraithstrike and I have finally worked out the Dragon Kings.
Bit late for the help on Borys,...BUT you could make part of his statblock the psion/wizard version of mystic theurge. Would cut down on the required numeric double whammy to get 20/20. Effectively Wizard 10, Psion 10 and MyTh10 would make him a 20/20 caster and level 30.
Just a thought.
Bit late for the help on Borys,...BUT you could make part of his statblock the psion/wizard version of mystic theurge. Would cut down on the required numeric double whammy to get 20/20. Effectively Wizard 10, Psion 10 and MyTh10 would make him a 20/20 caster and level 30.
Just a thought.
He intentionally did not use the cerebremancer(arcane/psion combo).
I will probably do it for my games, so I might put a conversion out later on. If so I can send you a PM, if you want it.
The reason that I didn't go with cerebremancer is that I felt that although the benefit to gaining effectively one level of spell and power advancement each by gaining a single level in a class was that the trade off was a huge loss in benefits from taking either arcane caster levels or psionic class levels and gaining their class abilities. I felt that this made for weaker casters and psionicists overall.
Additionally, in order to reach the sort of power that I felt was mechanically representative of the Dragon as presented in both the Dark Sun sourcebooks and the novels, I felt it was appropriate to expand beyond the 20th level restriction. Effectively, Borys, before becoming the Dragon, was one of the most powerful spellcasters and psionicists the world of Athas had ever seen. I didn't feel that could be represented by 10 levels of arcane caster, 10 levels of psionicist, then 10 levels of cerebremancer, since magically speaking, a 20th level arcane caster can put a 10 arcane caster/10 cerebremancer to shame, and the same holds true of a 20th level psionic class versus a 10 psionicist/10 cerebremancer.
I understand that this makes Borys and his peers rather extraordinary characters and not ones that are likely to be duplicated by player characters (though it is possible). I felt that since these characters were largely plot points and not standard antagonists (like your typical goblin or storm giant), I was okay with this.
I'm not saying that you couldn't rebuild Borys that way, but it's not the path that I've chosen.
The reason that I didn't go with cerebremancer is that I felt that although the benefit to gaining effectively one level of spell and power advancement each by gaining a single level in a class was that the trade off was a huge loss in benefits from taking either arcane caster levels or psionic class levels and gaining their class abilities. I felt that this made for weaker casters and psionicists overall.
Additionally, in order to reach the sort of power that I felt was mechanically representative of the Dragon as presented in both the Dark Sun sourcebooks and the novels, I felt it was appropriate to expand beyond the 20th level restriction. Effectively, Borys, before becoming the Dragon, was one of the most powerful spellcasters and psionicists the world of Athas had ever seen. I didn't feel that could be represented by 10 levels of arcane caster, 10 levels of psionicist, then 10 levels of cerebremancer, since magically speaking, a 20th level arcane caster can put a 10 arcane caster/10 cerebremancer to shame, and the same holds true of a 20th level psionic class versus a 10 psionicist/10 cerebremancer.
I understand that this makes Borys and his peers rather extraordinary characters and not ones that are likely to be duplicated by player characters (though it is possible). I felt that since these characters were largely plot points and not standard antagonists (like your typical goblin or storm giant), I was okay with this.
I'm not saying that you couldn't rebuild Borys that way, but it's not the path that I've chosen.
Well it would actually be more like 20 the level arcanist or psion vs 15 arcane/15 psion, but dragons are likely 20/20 in some cases so you would still need to be a level 30 character to get that 20/20 assuming you split the levels evenly. That gives you 20 actual class level in each class, but the other side is that changing out psionic levels for "psychic magic" for those that don't like power points is easier this way if the psion is changed out for a psychic class on a one for one basis instead of reverse engineering how many cerebremancer levels are involved. That is the best reason to not use cerebremancer.
If i might. If he is going to use the Mythic Rules in order to become a "Dragon" you could make him a 20th level character. That is the pinnacle of "Normal" character advancement. now, i would give him Dragon HD, with all the subsequent abilities gained from it.
The Mythic Tier could add Hit Dice equal to the Mythic Rating. or double, whatever you feel is appropriate.
So...
Mythic Tier 10 = 10 Dragon Hit Dice (D12, Darkvision, Scent, whatever else). Give additional Caster slots for each hit die. The Avengelion (totally think i misspelled that) could get outsider Hit Dice. Possible even gain the Archon sub-type (reading through the source material it kinda sounds like an archon).
I would like to add that i kind of like the psionics system in the upcoming Occult book. Yes, its like mind magic, but it prevents the DM from having to work with two completely different systems.
My two copper pieces.
If i might. If he is going to use the Mythic Rules in order to become a "Dragon" you could make him a 20th level character. That is the pinnacle of "Normal" character advancement. now, i would give him Dragon HD, with all the subsequent abilities gained from it.
This resolves an issue with going above level 20 for being an awesome spellcaster or psionicist. However, it creates an issue in that your dragon is either an awesome spellcaster or an awesome psionicist, but not both. The sorcerer-kings and the Dragon are both master spellcasters and master psionicists before having undergone the first (through final) steps of the dragon metamorphosis.
The Mythic Tier could add Hit Dice equal to the Mythic Rating. or double, whatever you feel is appropriate.
So...
Mythic Tier 10 = 10 Dragon Hit Dice (D12, Darkvision, Scent, whatever else). Give additional Caster slots for each hit die. The Avengelion (totally think i misspelled that) could get outsider Hit Dice. Possible even gain the Archon sub-type (reading through the source material it kinda sounds like an archon).
The mythic tier/path/class is adding hit dice, among other things. It's not adding additional caster levels or psionic levels (or both) because that's not really what the dragon metamorphosis did in Dark Sun. It's getting other abilities that are, I believe, better suited. As for avangions, they're not really related to archons, but I appreciate the suggestion nonetheless.
I would like to add that i kind of like the psionics system in the upcoming Occult book. Yes, its like mind magic, but it prevents the DM from having to work with two completely different systems.
My two copper pieces.
This conversion is going to be compatible both with psionic powers a la Dreamscarred Press and with psychic magic a la Occult Adventures (when it is released).
Best wishes!
Just checking to see if this is still going?
Occult Adventures is out now. Here are some thoughts from me about how those classes could be integrated into Athas.
Kineticist: These guys sound like they'd hang around with Clerics as the chosen of the Elementals.
Medium: One thing that might be interesting about Athasian Mediums is that they don't necessarily know anything about the Spirits that they're channeling. That champion they're channeling might have lived in the Green Age, referencing things that the Medium doesn't understand. Also, Archmage spirits would likely be looked at with suspicion, along with the Mediums who channel them.
Mesmerist: Gee? Mind control via psychic powers on Athas? That certainly doesn't fit in to this setting. (This is a joke. Mesmerists totally make sense in Dark Sun.)
Occultist: There probably aren't too many Occultists on Athas, since so much history has been lost. But then again, trying to uncover what happened before the rise of the Sorcerer Kings could be a hook for such a character.
Psychic: Would probably fill a similar role to Psionicists as masters of psychic power.
Spiritualist: There are enough weird undead things on Athas that I think phantoms aren't too much of a stretch to add. It also makes sense that some souls would try to escape the Athasian afterlife.
Very interested to see the write up on the occult classes, I loved the other classes.