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Was traveling last week and tried to join a pickup game. Most of the players were so stuck in the way the game used to be that they literally couldn’t get the game started.
Ok, I will admit I am a grognard.
There is a lot about the 3.x/PF that I’ve really never been fond of and some things about the old versions of the game I really miss.
* Magic items. They are too prolific, emphasis on the +X items, easy to get exactly what you want, and people feel the game absolutely requires free access.
* Level/party/build appropriate encounters. I think the bad guys should do what makes sense for someone in their situation based on the resources the bad guys have. NOT based on how powerful/clever the PC’s are. If the PC’s are stupid they get squashed.
* Every single person carries around a click-stick.
* The number of people who refuse to use any sort of tactics because, “well charging usually works…”
* Power level. I think the classes get too powerful too quickly. I don’t care that you are one of the better combatants in the city, you should be able to beat a rhino to death with a stick or whip. It shouldn’t hardly be able to tell you are there.
On the other hand, there is a lot that is great and on the whole I prefer the changes incorporated into PF.
* The ability to customize (if you want) is amazing. If I want to make Abhorsen that specializes in sound magic, I can come pretty close to the book character. If I want a killer cleric that mostly uses a greatclub to huge effect in melee, I can build it. There is an absolute wealth of possibilities.
* Yet if you prefer, you can play CRB only and have a perfectly serviceable game.
* Internally consistent, relatively sensible, yet simple enough to be playable. I’ve seen a couple of system that seemed more ‘realistic’ but they always labored to ever get anything finished. Even relatively simple combats took hours and piles of bookkeeping.
* Broader base of enthusiasts. It is much easier to find a game because it appeals to more people as well as being more socially acceptable.
* Rules enough that I feel I know how to play the game but not so much that I feel I’m in a straight jacket. A big example is illusions. They are much more defined now. In the past a GM would change how he would rule them on a whim moment to moment. So I rarely took a chance on them because they were too unknown. Now there is still enough freedom that I can try something truly weird sometimes, but I also have a basis to know how the GM is likely to respond.
This group (GM and all but one of the players) was absolutely stuck in the old strength Fighter, dex Rogue, Arcane Caster (blaster), and Cleric (healbot) as the only role possibilities. The guy they apparently usually talked into running the healbot refused to do so again (good for him) and no one else wanted to do it.
I tried to explain how it really wasn’t needed and most groups don’t do that anymore. Especially at the low level they were playing. I offered to make a cleric that would be capable of using the wands and stuff to heal out of combat, but wouldn’t usually be healing during a fight. I am obviously an idiot, since that would be “just be a waste of everyone’s time. It is completely impossible to play without a healer. Everyone knows that if they have any experience playing at all.”
I also offered to make a ranger scout to handle the stealth, perception, and disabling activities. At their low levels magical traps are nearly nonexistent. But if they seem likely, there is an archtype that gives them the trap finding to deal with magical traps. Again… “We don’t need that. Everyone already wants to play a fighter type. We need a rogue or cleric for healing.”
Yeesh! After that short conversation, I wouldn’t have joined their group anyway. But I was tempted to stick around just to see how long it took them to convince one of the others to take one for the team. After about 20 minutes looking around the shop I left. They were still arguing about who had to play the cleric and rogue this time.
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It warms the cockles of my heart to know that Grognards step on each other's toes just as much as mine. Seems that this golden age of gaming perhaps wasn't so golden after all.
Eh, most of us are willing to admit everything wasn't perfect. Like I said, on the whole I'm happy with where things went, but there are things I miss.
Just seemed kinda wierd that these guys were stuck on the least attractive parts that they didn't seem to enjoy, but seemed to be unwilling to consider a change. Odd.
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When it comes to Grognards, my thoughts are usually, "if second edition was so good, why aren't you playing second edition?"
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You kids today, you don't appreciate how we had it. And when I was a kid, we went up-level, both ways, through the snow just to look at a dungeon! And elf was a class, and we liked it that way!
You see, to get the picture, you had to describe your character in all his attire, and me, well I wore an onion in my belt, because it was the style at the time. Back in those days, silver pieces had bees on them. "Gimme 10 bees for a gp", we'd say, of course to catch the ferry to Port Peril, we would, which back in those days was called Port Not-Too-Dangerous-Yet, which none of us understood at the time, because we all wondered when it would be dangerous. Of course, that was before Calistira adopted the wasp as her symbol, and when she did, boy were we confused, because you see, you'd only get yourself two stings-of-the-wasp for a gp, so the conversion rate was a little off, and of course we'd say it's five bees a sting, but only if your stinger is strong, we would.
Now you see, this was before them dirty orcs started inbreeding with us good humans. Don't get me wrong, I know there's a few good orcs out there, got a daughter married to an orc, but that's the exception, not the rule, and I'm still waiting till he hurts her...and kobolds, well, I just don't trust them shifty folk, no no, no matter what my grandson says. "Granpa, you're being a speciesist! These days some kobolds are neutral, or even good! You can't just slaughter them out of hand, there's moral relevatism and ambiguity to deal with."
Well, I tell you I had nine of them little nuggets jump me and by the time I was done with them I had such a workout I was thin as an elf. Not the race, mind you, but the class. Because...well, you see, back in our days, an elf was a class, and we liked it that way! You see, I wore an onion in my belt, because...
Damnit Cantankerous Old Grognard, that's the same rant you gave the last time I let you out of your cage!
Don't mind him. He can't help himself. Memory isn't what it used to be.
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Alright, ya got me. You see, the story of the good ol' days of RPGs started in the Old Edition. I forget which one exactly. My DM (they were called DMs back then, on account of shut up, that's why), well my DM would drone on and on about Second Edition. He thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Sliced bread having been invented the previous winter. Which edition did we decide to play as a result?
Well, you're really asking two questions there. The first one takes me back to 1934. Admiral Byrd had just reached the pole, only hours ahead of the Three Stooges and... WHAT? Who said that? Are the Chelish invading again? Oh, right. Well, I guess he won the argument, but I walked away with the turnips. The following morning, I resigned my commission in the Coast Guard of Andoran. The next thing I heard, there was civil war in Brevoy and that's everything that happened in my life right up to the time I got this message post.
When it comes to Grognards, my thoughts are usually, "if second edition was so good, why aren't you playing second edition?"
I do. Next question.
As for grognards, just as it's always been in Napoleon's army, there are Posers, and there are REAL Grognards.
A REAL grognard never complains about what happened in the old days, they were the days of glory and the best of times (as any old grognard of Nappy's armies would tell you).
Posers find all sorts of things to complain about the old days...that's how you know they weren't really there...or if they were...they aren't the REAL grognards....
;P
Errr...we are talking about the old Napoleonic campaigns...right?
Or are there some other sort of Grognards out there????
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Yeah. I also play 2nd edition.... While i've put in my time with 3.5 and pathfinder, I see all the same system troubles that the OP points out and then some... While I managed to make the experience as fun as I possibly could, I also found plenty of instances where the new things that pathfinder offers are things I'd like to try, I've also noticed that those things are things that modern gm's like to avoid like the plague. I've learned a lot of what makes newer games not better games, and to that effect I'm still primarily a 2e player when it comes to D&D.
Whats worse is that the only other system I prefer is Heroes Unlimited and Ninja's and superspies... Another system which, despite plugging on for well over 3 decades relatively unchanged, still seems impossible to have a pleasant conversation about. Every time the system is mentioned you have to weed through a gauntlet of 'horribly organized, everything newer is better and simpler, KS is an *expletive deleted* blather and so on, ad nauseum, making a decent conversation about it almost impossible.
Despite the negative stigma, I'll still choose heroe's unlimited and ninjas and superspies over any system that's come after it...
So for me the 'if it's so good why aren't you still playing it'... I'd agree. I AM indeed still playing it to the exclusion of newer systems with 'new baggage' that does not outweigh its 'new coolness'. Not a fan of d20, dice pools, feat trees, fate points, toughness/wounds mechanics, wargames, battle mats, battle mat mechachics. Yet I still enjoy gaming enough to want to keep showing up here and talking about it.
I just don't sing the praises of newfangled mechanics...
Aquisitions Incorporated has been an awesome watch though. I'm now a big fan of Rothfuss and Chris Perkins... Chris seems to be very light handed rules light fiat friendly, which is the cheery kind of old school I've always experienced and endorsed.
Awesome
Best. Homage. Ever!
I remember a time I played with a group of grognards...
It was autumn and we were in a bit of a gaming dry spell with new classes and such. That is when lovable munchkin invited me to this great group he also plays with on occasion. It was a group of really high level grognards playing 1ed AD&D of all things (the game they refuse to give up because NOTHING better was ever made). I of course was given an unholy amount of XP and gold to create my character. So I set about building a wizard (the most broken class I could think of in AD&D at the time)... WOW was I wrong. I sheepishly had my princess of power to the GM and he just laughs. Now I was convinced he was going to berate me for making such an unstoppable power, but he said instead she wasn't strong enough to even face the butler at the dungeon entrance... I was stunned I had used every trick hadn't I? NOPE. Munchkin helped me remake her using dual classing tricks and classes like Ninja (yes these existed in 1st ed apparently) and psionics. Now I had this... inhuman human who could shake the very heavens with raw power while ignoring any damage sent her way (mostly). Satisfied the GM let my now barely able character into his game. I died a LOT in that game... a LOT. And yes the damn butler at the door was the first one to kill me.
My theory is that they don't want to EVER stop playing their favorite character. So they stay in that edition forever just getting stronger and stronger.
When it comes to Grognards, my thoughts are usually, "if second edition was so good, why aren't you playing second edition?"It was, and I am... ;-)
2nd edition was good, I agree. As for thegreenteagamer's question: Not everyone has access to people willing to play an older edition, because people are in the mindset that "New = good, old = bad", which is just as false as the mindset of "Old = good, new = bad" that many people have (though, in my experience, is much much less common than the first). Almost nothing gets my jimmies more rustled than the whole "rose tinted nostalgia goggles/glasses" people like to toss around when someone says they like an older version (be it preferring pre-3rd edition over 3rd edition and newer games, or an older version of an MMORPG than what is out now [such as World of Warcraft]).
It's very similar to the "Stop liking things that I don't like!" mentality, which applies to people on both sides.
New things are wrong, change is bad, and everything worth anything was already invented by 1967. This computer stuff is a fad, and it will fade away just like that fancy disco. Real music is a love song about your sweetie, not some boogie about shaking jive, like you kids sing today with your permed hair and your bellbottoms. Well I'll leave it behind and play my original game, thank you very much. They say that it's madness to talk to yourself sometimes, but is it? Am I mad because I play by myself because I can't find anyone who will play basic First Edition rules using original dice hand-carved by Olmec Indians during the third century AD, which of course you know is the only true way to play the game? Yes, madness runs in the Grognard blood. Some even called me mad. And whyyy? Because I dared to dream of creating my own race of atomic monsters! Atomic Supermen, with octogonal shaped bodies that suck blood out of... ...damn goblin kids, always skateboarding on my lawn...
Part of the very fundamental nature of Dragons is the tropes of 'Older is Better' and 'Stronger with Age.'
Yoda wasnt just a feebler but wiser fighter... he was a badass grandpa.
Reminds me of the kings eldest guard in Joel Rosenberg's 'D'shai'. Still gives me shivvers when I think about it.
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We really need to come up with a commensurate term for the other end of this particular spectrum.
The anti-grognard, the guy who's on a perpetual quest for novelty and harbors a Hegelian belief that game systems are slowly marching towards a state of undefinable perfection.
I came in with 2e myself. I'm used to older, weirder, people then me telling me that I don't know what this RPG thing is about.
We really need to come up with a commensurate term for the other end of this particular spectrum.
The anti-grognard, the guy who's on a perpetual quest for novelty and harbors a Hegelian belief that game systems are slowly marching towards a state of undefinable perfection.
Optimists.
It is pure pessimism to assume that we are not novel enough to improve upon the existing, ever.
I'm not saying there won't be mistakes as time goes on...The edition of which we shall not speak that comes before fifth and after third did happen of course...but you don't look at everything new and automatically write it off because there's no way to improve upon the glory of yon old days.
We really need to come up with a commensurate term for the other end of this particular spectrum.
The anti-grognard, the guy who's on a perpetual quest for novelty and harbors a Hegelian belief that game systems are slowly marching towards a state of undefinable perfection.
How about the Mayfly? He flits about with no long-term game and, ultimately, dies on his quest for unattainable perfection.
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When it comes to Grognards, my thoughts are usually, "if second edition was so good, why aren't you playing second edition?"Because grognards are too busy playing OD&D or 1e?
yeah, 2e is kinda the bastard red-headed stepchild of D&D editions.
1e or 0e or B/X or BECMI/RC, that's the good stuff.
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When it comes to Grognards, my thoughts are usually, "if second edition was so good, why aren't you playing second edition?"Because grognards are too busy playing OD&D or 1e?yeah, 2e is kinda the bastard red-headed stepchild of D&D editions.
1e or 0e or B/X or BECMI/RC, that's the good stuff.
Was it even marketed as a new addition at the time? I just remember there being additional splat books, but the original PH and DMG still being valid.
But maybe I missed something -- I was mostly transitioning over to GURPS at the time.
Despite the negative stigma, I'll still choose heroe's unlimited and ninjas and superspies over any system that's come after it...
<3 Ninja's and Superspies.
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When it comes to Grognards, my thoughts are usually, "if second edition was so good, why aren't you playing second edition?"Because grognards are too busy playing OD&D or 1e?yeah, 2e is kinda the bastard red-headed stepchild of D&D editions.
1e or 0e or B/X or BECMI/RC, that's the good stuff.
Was it even marketed as a new addition at the time? I just remember there being additional splat books, but the original PH and DMG still being valid.
But maybe I missed something -- I was mostly transitioning over to GURPS at the time.
Yeah, the big "SECOND EDITION" on the covers was kind of a give-away that maybe it was a new edition. The sanitation so Christians would stop whining. Yeah, it wasn't just a new edition, it was pretty much a step away from a play style, and a move toward a younger audience (hence the sanitation - no half orcs and their "icky back story", no more calling demons and devils demons and devils, no more assassins). It was AD&D if AD&D were made by Disney.
Pfeh. You youngsters have no appreciation for REAL roleplaying. When I started playing with GG and DA, it was hard to have your fighting man survive, lemme tellya. And every room contained a damn good reason to roll initiative. Plus we didn't have the stats in the wrong order. And we died, and made new characters, and we fought 5-50 nixies, and we liked it!
... What was the question again?
Pfeh. You youngsters have no appreciation for REAL roleplaying. When I started playing with GG and DA, it was hard to have your fighting man survive, lemme tellya. And every room contained a damn good reason to roll initiative. Plus we didn't have the stats in the wrong order. And we died, and made new characters, and we fought 5-50 nixies, and we liked it!
... What was the question again?
Copying my jokes, that's a paddlin'.
*whacks COG with rollator*
I did cry a little tear when 2e was forced to rename demons and devils in a deferrent nod to the worried soccer moms of the day... I totally understand why they did it and that it was a silly thing... I simply went on to ignore it and continued to refer to them as demons and devils.
Sure its a pit fiend, lord of hell. But its not demon and devil worship because there are no longer demons and devils in the system mom. You won. Gaming saw the birth of a few wise politicians that day.... A rose by any other name... surely isnt devil worship mom.
Nobody who actually plays isn't canny enough to know whats what there... Its what the hobby needed at the time for no other reason than to shake off some bad press. Nobody who actually plays thought 'where'd all the demons and devils go?'... ah... they went under B and T so your mom couldnt find them without the passwords.
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*whacks COG with rollator*
Hot diggity, a duel! I can't remember when I last felt this young!
...
...
..I really can't.
Wait, what were we fighting about again? Fighting? You boys fighting again? Don't make me take off my belt!
Holy bejeezus Ima seeing things
This group (GM and all but one of the players) was absolutely stuck in the old strength Fighter, dex Rogue, Arcane Caster (blaster), and Cleric (healbot) as the only role possibilities. The guy they apparently usually talked into running the healbot refused to do so again (good for him) and no one else wanted to do it.
I tried to explain how it really wasn’t needed and most groups don’t do that anymore. Especially at the low level they were playing. I offered to make a cleric that would be capable of using the wands and stuff to heal out of combat, but wouldn’t usually be healing during a fight. I am obviously an idiot, since that would be “just be a waste of everyone’s time. It is completely impossible to play without a healer. Everyone knows that if they have any experience playing at all.”
I also offered to make a ranger scout to handle the stealth, perception, and disabling activities. At their low levels magical traps are nearly nonexistent. But if they seem likely, there is an archtype that gives them the trap finding to deal with magical traps. Again… “We don’t need that. Everyone already wants to play a fighter type. We need a rogue or cleric for healing.”
The frump is strong in this group.
I would've been tempted to stick around too, just to see what happened if they couldn't convince anyone to play what they wanted. Would they eventually stomp out in a huff, or eventually sit down to play and possibly have fun in spite of themselves?
I certainly would have stayed to see who finally caved and played the heal bot.
When it comes to Grognards, my thoughts are usually, "if second edition was so good, why aren't you playing second edition?"Because grognards are too busy playing OD&D or 1e?yeah, 2e is kinda the bastard red-headed stepchild of D&D editions.
1e or 0e or B/X or BECMI/RC, that's the good stuff.
Here, here! or is it Huzzah? I can never remember. 'Must be old.
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if 2e and palladium are the red headed stepchilds of gaming, then I must have a thing for redheads.
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MUST... NOT... RANT... ABOUT... OLD... SYSTEMS...
I know I'll rant about new ones!
As for recent editions of everyone's favorite most popular RPG, well I kinda hate minis and tactical movement. Reminds me of chess (another old person's game) and how long it took to get through a round of combat in Palladi-DAMN IT! and robs the game of a lot flow and imagination.
P1: "Why do all the enemies look like flattened President Lincolns?"
P2: "Wow, old skool metal miniatures. Are they poisonous?
G3: "'Cause I'm cheap! Now shaddup and play or I'll kill you in some completely arbitrary way involving anagrams."
P1: "NO, NOT BLACK LEAF! NO, NO! I'M GOING TO DIE!"
G3: "Marcie, chill. It's just a game. It's okay, sometimes characters die. It heightens the tension of the game. You can always roll up a new character. Maybe that healbot cleric you've been wanting--"
P1: "No, I'm going on Facebook and telling my friends you're a terrible game master.
G3: "I thought WE were FRIENDS?"
P1: "My REAL friends."
P3: "Go ahead and post. Facebook's my phone's home page."
P4: "What was the encounter level?"
G3: "Huh? Oh, uh, three, I think.
P4: "THREE!! THREE??? Really three? We're only supposed to have three of those a day. No wonder you died Marcie."
G3: "You can have four level three encounters in one day. You're still in range."
P4: "I'm sorry, but with our party wealth so far below the normal average, four level three encounters is a virtual death sentence.
G3 (through gritted teeth): "But you decided to go on rather than make camp."
P4: "Yes when we thought you were going to be fair and give us appropriate challenges for our characters."
G3: "I'M THE GM; I'M NEVER FAIR!"
P2: "See what I did there with the 'k' in 'skool'?"
P1: sniff, sniff
When it comes to Grognards, my thoughts are usually, "if second edition was so good, why aren't you playing second edition?"
It wasn't, I don't (anymore)
When it comes to Grognards, my thoughts are usually, "if second edition was so good, why aren't you playing second edition?"
Some indeed are.
And others are trying to hybridise systems and take a bit from here & there.
I got an offer to an AD&D game over two weeks back. Looking forward to it. Probably will go thief. :D
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if 2e and palladium are the red headed stepchilds of gaming, then I must have a thing for redheads.
Same here, and I know I have a thing for redheads. >.>
Holy maloney, is that a GGG sighting after ... what, six years?!
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With all due respect to Palladium apologists. Much if the flak their rpgs and KS is deserved to a certain amount. Having played since the first core book for Rifts was released. Their games are poorly organized. Have copy and paste errors that later printings usually do not fix. With important rules scattered all over the place. As for KS well his habit of sending Cease and Desist letters while his legal right to do so is not going to endear him to anyone. Not to mention the Robotech Kickstarter miniatures fiasco where people at Gencon received their minis before backers again did nothing to endear him to the KS backers. So let's not pretend that Palladium Rpgs and KS are innocent of any wrong doing either imo.
Mind you I still think that 2e Palladium Fantasy to be a decent game. Even if it suffers from "humans at the top of the food chain" simply because the devs have a soft spot for humans like too many fantasy rpgs. At the same time they offer monster races as pcs. Yet most of those races would considering their evil reputations would not be allowed 100ft near any town. village or city. I also like the magic system. So much better than the fire and forget magic system of D&D.
2E D&D is what Pathfinder is to 3.5. Very few minor rule changes but 80%+ is mostly rehash. I enjoyed that edition. But the level limits for demi-humans simply because the 2E devs were pro-human and unwilling to give humans as a race anything better than unlimited class levels was annoying to me at least. I'm getting penalized simply for taking another race other than human.
Myself I consider myself a Enlightened Grognard. While their a few things I hold sacred when it comes to rpgs. I'm also open to new experiences. If it makes me have fun more. Or a new version of a existing rpg easier to run. I get the newer version usually. I also don't find the newer generation of gamers to be such a threat to the hobby as others grognard do. Without new blood the hobby dies like any hobby. It's up to use to teach the newer generation to get interested in the hobby. If need be adapt and change.
Yeah. I didnt use level limits on demihumans in my 2e stuff. I was so happy in switching from becmi to 2e that they no longer tied race to class, only to find out they were stunting the levels of them. I'm like no... lets go whole hog.
With all due respect to Palladium apologists. Much if the flak their rpgs and KS is deserved to a certain amount. Having played since the first core book for Rifts was released. Their games are poorly organized. Have copy and paste errors that later printings usually do not fix. With important rules scattered all over the place. As for KS well his habit of sending Cease and Desist letters while his legal right to do so is not going to endear him to anyone. Not to mention the Robotech Kickstarter miniatures fiasco where people at Gencon received their minis before backers again did nothing to endear him to the KS backers. So let's not pretend that Palladium Rpgs and KS are innocent of any wrong doing either imo.
Mind you I still think that 2e Palladium Fantasy to be a decent game. Even if it suffers from "humans at the top of the food chain" simply because the devs have a soft spot for humans like too many fantasy rpgs. At the same time they offer monster races as pcs. Yet most of those races would considering their evil reputations would not be allowed 100ft near any town. village or city. I also like the magic system. So much better than the fire and forget magic system of D&D.
2E D&D is what Pathfinder is to 3.5. Very few minor rule changes but 80%+ is mostly rehash. I enjoyed that edition. But the level limits for demi-humans simply because the 2E devs were pro-human and unwilling to give humans as a race anything better than unlimited class levels was annoying to me at least. I'm getting penalized simply for taking another race other than human.
Myself I consider myself a Enlightened Grognard. While their a few things I hold sacred when it comes to rpgs. I'm also open to new experiences. If it makes me have fun more. Or a new version of a existing rpg easier to run. I get the newer version usually. I also don't find the newer generation of gamers to be such a threat to the hobby as others grognard do. Without new blood the hobby dies like any hobby. It's up to use to teach the newer...
An Enlightened Grognard of the Grognard Enlightenment? *Doffs hat*
We really need to come up with a commensurate term for the other end of this particular spectrum.
The anti-grognard, the guy who's on a perpetual quest for novelty and harbors a Hegelian belief that game systems are slowly marching towards a state of undefinable perfection.
RPG Hipsters?
"Oh, you're still playing D&D? That's cute. I do REAL role-playing with an Apocalypse World hack I've added some FATE elements to. Plus my custom rules for shotguns."
Huh. I had no idea hipsters were superior arrogant bigots. Go figure. Must be the bags.
Huh. I had no idea hipsters were superior arrogant bigots. Go figure. Must be the bags.We really need to come up with a commensurate term for the other end of this particular spectrum.
The anti-grognard, the guy who's on a perpetual quest for novelty and harbors a Hegelian belief that game systems are slowly marching towards a state of undefinable perfection.
RPG Hipsters?
"Oh, you're still playing D&D? That's cute. I do REAL role-playing with an Apocalypse World hack I've added some FATE elements to. Plus my custom rules for shotguns."
I've met those people. I played a couple sessions with a group that only played Indie RPGs. Savage Worlds was too mainstream for them, no joke.
We played some crappy Greek Mythology game where you were constantly trying to one-hour the other players as you fought the actual enemy, with bonuses if you stole kills or used less armor to look like more of a bad @$$. It was sp boring, no character development or cooperation and barely any customization. Most of the systems they told me about were custom made for one shot adventures or obscure settings like Dogs in the Vinyard.
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Huh. I had no idea hipsters were superior arrogant bigots. Go figure. Must be the bags.We really need to come up with a commensurate term for the other end of this particular spectrum.
The anti-grognard, the guy who's on a perpetual quest for novelty and harbors a Hegelian belief that game systems are slowly marching towards a state of undefinable perfection.
RPG Hipsters?
"Oh, you're still playing D&D? That's cute. I do REAL role-playing with an Apocalypse World hack I've added some FATE elements to. Plus my custom rules for shotguns."
I've met those people. I played a couple sessions with a group that only played Indie RPGs. Savage Worlds was too mainstream for them, no joke.
We played some crappy Greek Mythology game where you were constantly trying to one-hour the other players as you fought the actual enemy, with bonuses if you stole kills or used less armor to look like more of a bad @$$. It was sp boring, no character development or cooperation and barely any customization. Most of the systems they told me about were custom made for one shot adventures or obscure settings like Dogs in the Vinyard.
Yeah, the irony for me is when you point out that you aren't enjoying their whacky changes to the system you get derided as a grognard. :)
I have a friend who cites Kirth as if he were some sort of super-authority over the actual Paizo guys.
I admit that I'm a bit of a jerk though, when I encounter over-engineered, new stuff, I try to playtest it by intentionally trying to find situations and things it was never meant to adjudicate and making those my bread and butter.
I've found a lot of older systems just leave stuff up to the DM that new systems try futilely to shoe horn into their OS.