So it seems this will work because it's not targeting a specific number of creatures. The question I have, is if the swarm fails its saving throw--what HD number do I use? The swarm itself has 3 HD, but the individual creatures in the swarm are less than that.
How would Color spray affect a 3 HD snake swarm?
Yeah, they are one 3HD creature.
Cool, thanks!
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A snake swarm does not have a hive mind, and as such would be unaffected by the mind-affecting Color Spray.
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind.
Edit: added links
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A snake swarm does not have a hive mind, and as such would be unaffected by the mind-affecting Color Spray.
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind.
Beat me to it, Nefreet.
That's completely correct.. color spraying a swarm of snakes will do you no more good than it would color spraying zombies.
Well, I didn't actually look it up.
Serves me right.
I don't know what else to say.
I quoted and linked the relevant rules.
You are ignoring the beginning of the sentence you are bolding. The qualifier about the hive mind is only relevant if the spell affects a certain number of creatures. Color Spray doesn't.
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No, you quoted a rule that says a swarm is immune to spells and effects that target a specific number of creatures, except that hive minds can be targeted with them if they're mind affecting. That line has no bearing on AoE spells that have no specific targets.I don't know what else to say.
I quoted the relevant rules.
Jeff, you should know better.
Swarms are immune to mind affecting effects. unless they have both intelligence and hive mind. Snake swarms don't have both, thus they have the immunity to mind-affecting (which Color Spray is) w/o the exception to the immunity.
Interesting. I would agree with Nefreet, but the fact that Color Spray has no limit on the number of creatures it can affect, I'm not so sure.
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You are ignoring the beginning of the sentence you are bolding. The qualifier about the hive mind is only relevant if the spell affects a certain number of creatures. Color Spray doesn't.I don't know what else to say.
I quoted and linked the relevant rules.
Alright, I'm open to that interpretation being possible.
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Alright, I'm open to that interpretation being possible.
I really don't see how there could be any other interpretation. Swarms are immune to all spells that target a specific number of creatures (i.e. non-area of effects) EXCEPT if the swarm has intelligence and a hivemind. In that case you can affect them with targeted mind affecting spells. For instance, you could not Dominate Monster a snake swarm but you could Dominate Monster a swarm of intelligent snakes that had a hivemind.
I've got to go with them being affected.
Nefreet, the rules you quoted only apply to spells and effects that target a certain number of creatures.
It's actually the same sentence.
Color spray is an AOE, does not affect a certain number of creatures, and therefore should work.
Yeah, I did indeed believe that swarms had an immunity called out in the trait. I've only got the PRD to reference at the moment, but I have to concede that I certainly appear to be proven wrong on this one.
Many swarms are also vermin and vermin are flat out immune to mind affecting. You may have been thinking along those lines.
I concur, the statement in the rules could be written as:
Swarms are immune to mind affecting effects that target a single or a specific number of creatures unless they have a hive mind.
They are not immune to mind affecting effects that do not target a single or specifc number of creatures, which color spray is, unless of course it's a vermin or undead swarm.
Just goes to show you even very experienced players/GMs (which Nefreet certainly is) can read a rule incorrectly.
I like using Sleep vs. Color Spray. 12 squares hit vs. 6-7 squares. 4HD limit vs. no limit. Medium range vs. adjacent. 1 minute/level vs. max 13 rounds.
The 4HD limit hurts, but for low HD swarms, it is better since it is ranged and can target a larger area.
/cevah
I like using Sleep vs. Color Spray. 12 squares hit vs. 6-7 squares. 4HD limit vs. no limit. Medium range vs. adjacent. 1 minute/level vs. max 13 rounds.
The 4HD limit hurts, but for low HD swarms, it is better since it is ranged and can target a larger area.
/cevah
The problem with sleep is the 1 round casting time.
You won't have to make concentration checks to cast color spray at the swarm.
I like using Sleep vs. Color Spray. 12 squares hit vs. 6-7 squares. 4HD limit vs. no limit. Medium range vs. adjacent. 1 minute/level vs. max 13 rounds.
The 4HD limit hurts, but for low HD swarms, it is better since it is ranged and can target a larger area.
/cevah
The problem with sleep is the 1 round casting time.
You won't have to make concentration checks to cast color spray at the swarm.
One round at medium range. The check only occurs if someone is in your face.
/cevah
Could the "4 HD of creatures" in Sleep be interpreted as a "specific number of creatures" in Swarm?
Could the "4 HD of creatures" in Sleep be interpreted as a "specific number of creatures" in Swarm?
I wouldn't. 4 HD worth of those critters should be a swarm's worth.