Attacks of opportunity and Combat Reflexes

[paredrus]

Having returned to the game after 3 years (give or take) I have to remember a lot of stuff!

The question is regarding attacks of opportunity and the feat Combat Reflexes. The rules clearly state "If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity)."

So what exactly constitutes a "given opportunity"? Does a character with combat reflexes makes two attacks of opportunity in the same round, against the same opponent who fires two arrows?

[Captain Zoom]

PRD:

Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.

Performing a Distracting Act: Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Table: Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.

Each time an opponent in your threatened area performs an action that grants an AOO, you get an AOO (if you have any AOOs left).

On your question about firing arrows - If the opponent makes two ranged attacks in your threatened area, one for each arrow, you get two AOOs.

[Matthew Downie]

Some less intuitive ones:

You don't provoke more than once from movement from the same opponent if you pass through multiple threatened squares in the same move.

You provoke twice if you cast a ranged touch spell - once for casting, and once for making a ranged attack. (You would only provoke once if you Cast Defensively.)

[Rikkan]

I thought Full attacks don't provoke attacks of opportunity, only standard ranged attacks do (and ranged touch attacks)?

So full attacking with a bow does not provoke at all?

[wraithstrike]

Rikkan wrote:

I thought Full attacks don't provoke attacks of opportunity, only standard ranged attacks do (and ranged touch attacks)?

So full attacking with a bow does not provoke at all?

The fact that it is a ranged attack is what provokes, so a bow will provoke for every attack, even if you use a full attack.

As an example charges(full round actions) do not provoke in and of themselves, but if you move out of a threatened square while charging that does provoke.

Basically if you do anything that provokes then you provoke. There is no rule giving charges or full round attacks a free pass, if they consist of a provoking act.

[Matthew Downie]

Rikkan wrote:

I thought Full attacks don't provoke attacks of opportunity, only standard ranged attacks do (and ranged touch attacks)?

So full attacking with a bow does not provoke at all?

So 'standard action ranged attack' is listed as provoking, but 'full attack' is not...

...I can't see anything RAW to disprove that, but I'm pretty sure that's not how it's supposed to work.

[wraithstrike]

Matthew Downie wrote:

Rikkan wrote:

I thought Full attacks don't provoke attacks of opportunity, only standard ranged attacks do (and ranged touch attacks)?

So full attacking with a bow does not provoke at all?

So 'standard action ranged attack' is listed as provoking, but 'full attack' is not...

...I can't see anything RAW to disprove that, but I'm pretty sure that's not how it's supposed to work.

I just noticed that also. It just never came up so nobody questioned it so it was not fixed. 3.5 had the exact same wording, but they also had online blogs to explain the intent so everything was clear. IIRC there is dev commentary on this site, but the book is wrong.

[claudekennilol]

It's not wrong. A full-attack does not provoke. But the individual shots do. If a "full-attack" provoked, then you'd provoke, plus you'd provoke for each shot.

[Matthew Downie]

The book says when you make a standard action attack using a ranged weapon you provoke. I can't find anywhere saying individual shots provoke.

[LazarX]

Captain Zoom wrote:

PRD:

Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.

Performing a Distracting Act: Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Table: Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.

Each time an opponent in your threatened area performs an action that grants an AOO, you get an AOO (if you have any AOOs left).

On your question about firing arrows - If the opponent makes two ranged attacks in your threatened area, one for each arrow, you get two AOOs.

No you get one, because it's a single full attack action, and each opponent only gets one AOO per opportunity.

[Bran Towerfall]

Matthew Downie wrote:

The book says when you make a standard action attack using a ranged weapon you provoke. I can't find anywhere saying individual shots provoke.

anyone attempting full-round action does not provoke for doing so. not having feats like point blank master cause you to provoke in melee. the aoo is for trying to wield your bow in melee and provokes once for the action not the amount of arrows you shoot. if i was charging a creature with 20ft reach, i would provoke once for the move thru threated sqaures. if i moved thru threatened square and tried to shoot my bow i would provoke twice

[_Ozy_]

LazarX wrote:

Captain Zoom wrote:

PRD:

Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.

Performing a Distracting Act: Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Table: Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.

Each time an opponent in your threatened area performs an action that grants an AOO, you get an AOO (if you have any AOOs left).

On your question about firing arrows - If the opponent makes two ranged attacks in your threatened area, one for each arrow, you get two AOOs.

No you get one, because it's a single full attack action, and each opponent only gets one AOO per opportunity.

That's not true. If I choose to full attack using a trip maneuver for my first attack, and a sunder for the 2nd, I provoke for both.

[HardMaple]

This one is tough. Core Rulebook says Standard Action Attack (Ranged) provokes, Full Attack of any kind does not provoke. The only reference that using a ranged weapon while threatened provokes is Point Blank Master in the APG. It really is going to depend how much weight your GM gives to feat descriptions that counter the core rules.

[paredrus]

LazarX wrote:

Captain Zoom wrote:

PRD:

Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.

Performing a Distracting Act: Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Table: Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.

Each time an opponent in your threatened area performs an action that grants an AOO, you get an AOO (if you have any AOOs left).

On your question about firing arrows - If the opponent makes two ranged attacks in your threatened area, one for each arrow, you get two AOOs.

No you get one, because it's a single full attack action, and each opponent only gets one AOO per opportunity.

So, in your opinion, the "given opportunity" is the full attack action?

[Kazaan]

Points to keep in mind:

1) The table is not exhaustive. It lists actions based on action economy (standard, move, etc.) but does not list all acts that may provoke.

2) Provoking AoO is listed separately in some cases. For example, under Cast a Spell, Making a Ranged Touch Attack is explicitly called out as provoking despite not being its own action (it is a part of the Cast a Spell action). The FAQ clearly establishes that it's "acts" in a more general sense that provoke, not "actions" from the action economy perspective. Moving, for example, is considered a single "act" and the rules explicitly state that moving through multiple threatened spaces do not constitute multiple provocations. It doesn't matter if the movement is from the Move action or if it is a result of some other action (Charge, Withdraw (after the 1st square), etc). There is only one provocation and the only option the threatener gets is in which square he chooses to administer his AoO.

3) The Sword & Pistol feat clearly states the normal precedent:

PRD/UC wrote:

Benefit: When you use the Two-Weapon Fighting feat while wielding a melee weapon and a crossbow or firearm, your attacks with the crossbow or firearm provoke no attacks of opportunity from foes that you threaten with your melee weapon.

Normal: Making a ranged attack provokes attacks of opportunity.

There would be absolutely no point to this feat at all if making ranged attacks during a Full-Attack (rather than as a standard Attack action) didn't provoke. It clearly states that making a ranged attack provokes.

Conclusion: It's the act of making a Ranged Attack (or any other provoking act), not just the Standard Attack action used to make a Ranged Attack, that provokes. This has been clearly reinforced by both FAQs as well as the rules at hand. The PRD was kind of a rush job so they may not have stated it quite as clearly from the beginning, but everything published thereafter indicates that this was the original meaning. Thus, this is the most logical default position and, if this is incorrect (which I highly doubt), then an official change must be issued by Paizo.

[Magda Luckbender]

I think there's a FAQ somewhere that clearly explains how each arrow provokes an AoO when, for example, an archer making a full attack shoots multiple arrows. Each arrow provokes separately. I can't find it at the moment. Can other people look for that and post a link to it, please?

I introduce people to AoOs with this worthy funny video [Youtube: Attacks of Opportunity].

[GM Lamplighter]

Does it make sense that firing a bow once provokes, but firing it more than once doesn't?

Ranged attacks provoke, unless yo have a feat to make them not.

[LazarX]

paredrus wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Captain Zoom wrote:

PRD:

Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.

Performing a Distracting Act: Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Table: Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.

Each time an opponent in your threatened area performs an action that grants an AOO, you get an AOO (if you have any AOOs left).

On your question about firing arrows - If the opponent makes two ranged attacks in your threatened area, one for each arrow, you get two AOOs.

No you get one, because it's a single full attack action, and each opponent only gets one AOO per opportunity.

So, in your opinion, the "given opportunity" is the full attack action?

IF you make a single arrow attack, you provoke. If you make a single full attack, you provoke, once in both cases. If you strike and do a combat maneuver, the combat maneuver provokes UNLESS you have the apporiate trip feat. If for some bizarre reason you shoot an arrow, drop the bows and arrow as a free action, and do a trip without having the feat, then you provoke twice as the arrow shot and the trip attack are separate provoking conditions.

Other example you cast Scorching Ray and you don't bother to cast defensively. Both the casting and the aiming of the shocking ray are separet opportunity providers for AOO attacks and if the attacker has combat reflexes, he can take both opportunities. (assuming the caster makes the first check, and actually gets the spell cast)

[Jarndey]

We've been having this discussion at our table also, and the points brought up here are almost identical to our discussions. I did find this in the FAQ, and while the question is not related to this exact scenario, there is a section that may apply depending on interpretation:

Limited actions on my turn: If an AOO or other interrupting effect reduces what actions I can take on my turn, does this reduction apply immediately?
Yes, even if it interrupts or limits your in-progress.

For example, if you are making a full attack and attempt to trip your opponent, but you provoke an AOO because you don't have Improved Trip, and your opponent has a spell storing weapon that's storing a hold person, and you fail your save against the spell, you are immediately paralyzed and can't take any of your remaining actions (including the remainder of your full attack).

Likewise, if your opponent had the Staggering Critical feat instead of a spell storing weapon and the attack staggered you, you would immediately gain the staggered condition, which would prevent you from taking any actions that violate the staggered condition's limitations. If you provoked by taking a move action to move through the opponent's threatened area, you could finish that move action but could not also take a standard action after it. If you provoked as part of a full attack (as with the trip example), becoming staggered would end your full attack at that point and prevent you from taking a move action after the staggering attack. It doesn't matter if the AOO happened because of your first attack in your full attack or your last allowed one, being staggered ends your full attack at that point because you can't make a full attack if you're staggered.

The phrase I want to focus on for this discussion is this:
It doesn't matter if the AOO happened because of your first attack in your full attack or your last allowed one,

Is this saying that each attack in a full attack can provoke (until you run out of dex based attack of opportunities)?

[claudekennilol]

LazarX wrote:

IF you make a single arrow attack, you provoke. If you make a single full attack, you provoke, once in both cases. If you strike and do a combat maneuver, the combat maneuver provokes UNLESS you have the apporiate trip feat. If for some bizarre reason you shoot an arrow, drop the bows and arrow as a free action, and do a trip without having the feat, then you provoke twice as the arrow shot and the trip attack are separate provoking conditions.

Other example you cast Scorching Ray and you don't bother to cast defensively. Both the casting and the aiming of the shocking ray are separet opportunity providers for AOO attacks and if the attacker has combat reflexes, he can take both opportunities. (assuming the caster makes the first check, and actually gets the spell cast)

Where's your source that each arrow wouldn't provoke for a full-attack?

[Jokem]

Magda Luckbender wrote:

I think there's a FAQ somewhere that clearly explains how each arrow provokes an AoO when, for example, an archer making a full attack shoots multiple arrows. Each arrow provokes separately. I can't find it at the moment. Can other people look for that and post a link to it, please?

I introduce people to AoOs with this worthy funny video [Youtube: Attacks of Opportunity].

Magda - This video is great! Thx

[LazarX]

claudekennilol wrote:

LazarX wrote:

IF you make a single arrow attack, you provoke. If you make a single full attack, you provoke, once in both cases. If you strike and do a combat maneuver, the combat maneuver provokes UNLESS you have the apporiate trip feat. If for some bizarre reason you shoot an arrow, drop the bows and arrow as a free action, and do a trip without having the feat, then you provoke twice as the arrow shot and the trip attack are separate provoking conditions.

Other example you cast Scorching Ray and you don't bother to cast defensively. Both the casting and the aiming of the shocking ray are separet opportunity providers for AOO attacks and if the attacker has combat reflexes, he can take both opportunities. (assuming the caster makes the first check, and actually gets the spell cast)

Where's your source that each arrow wouldn't provoke for a full-attack?

Because firing each arrow is NOT a separate action. It is a single full-attack action.

[Magda Luckbender]

When performing a full attack one is not actually committed to the full attack until the 2nd attack is performed. E.g. it's OK to attack and then, based on the outcome your first attack, decide whether to move or continue with a full attack. Thus, it's [i]not[/] a single full-attack action. Each arrow provokes separately. The FAQ is pretty clear about this.

[bbangerter]

LazarX wrote:

Because firing each arrow is NOT a separate action. It is a single full-attack action.

Under the FAQ for casting a ranged attack ray spell AoO's the PDT notes the following:

Quote:

Note that at spell that fires multiple simultaneous rays, such as scorching ray, only provokes one AOO for making the ranged attack instead of one AOO for each ranged attack

Now why would they feel it necessary to point out that rays fired simultaneously only provokes once, instead of once per ray, if the default was that one sequence of ranged attacks (made as part of a single action) only provoked once to begin with?

It should be noted that not everything that provokes is actually a game defined action. In fact, the very same FAQ points out "...since these are two separate events." Notice that the ranged attack part of a ranged spell is not actually its own action (unlike melee touch attack spells that grant a free melee touch attack, ranged attack spells do not make that distinction).

[Rikkan]

bbangerter wrote:

Now why would they feel it necessary to point out that rays fired simultaneously only provokes once, instead of once per ray, if the default was that one sequence of ranged attacks (made as part of a single action) only provoked once to begin with?

It should be noted that not everything that provokes is actually a game defined action. In fact, the very same FAQ points out "...since these are two separate events." Notice that the ranged attack part of a ranged spell is not actually its own action (unlike melee touch attack spells that grant a free melee touch attack, ranged attack spells do not make that distinction).

Actually, ranged touch attacks have their own separate provoking rules.

prd:combat section wrote:

Ranged Touch Spells in Combat: Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively. Unless otherwise noted, ranged touch attacks cannot be held until a later turn.

So as far as I understand the rules, making a full attack with a bow does not provoke. But making a ranged attack as a standard action or casting a ranged touch spell does provoke.

[wraithstrike]

LazarX wrote:

Captain Zoom wrote:

PRD:

Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.

Performing a Distracting Act: Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Table: Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.

Each time an opponent in your threatened area performs an action that grants an AOO, you get an AOO (if you have any AOOs left).

On your question about firing arrows - If the opponent makes two ranged attacks in your threatened area, one for each arrow, you get two AOOs.

No you get one, because it's a single full attack action, and each opponent only gets one AOO per opportunity.

Yes, but one action can still give more than one opportunity. Spellcasting and charging are both examples of this.

[wraithstrike]

I guess I should go into detail. You use actions to do things. Those things may present opportunities for an AoO. Actions in and of themselves do not provoke, but what they are used to do does. As an example a full round action does not provokes. If that action is use for the act of casting a spell or charging then yes it does provoke. If the act itself consist of things such as moving out of an enemy square and then trying to use a combat maneuver feat then you may provoke twice since the one act and one action was used on two things that provoke.

That is the same reason why a spell can provoke twice. The casting of the spell and the ranged attack(which is not even an action) both provoke.

As for scorching ray it is more like a special rule because it fires "multiple simultaneous rays". However iterative attacks are not simultaneous so every attack would provoke in a full attack.

[Bran Towerfall]

but, charging through one enemy's threatened squares (15 ft reach) would result in one aoo unless besides movement i did something that caused a second aoo.

like charging and drinking potion/ reading scroll
like charging and shooting bow in threat range

[bbangerter]

Rikkan wrote:

bbangerter wrote:

Now why would they feel it necessary to point out that rays fired simultaneously only provokes once, instead of once per ray, if the default was that one sequence of ranged attacks (made as part of a single action) only provoked once to begin with?

It should be noted that not everything that provokes is actually a game defined action. In fact, the very same FAQ points out "...since these are two separate events." Notice that the ranged attack part of a ranged spell is not actually its own action (unlike melee touch attack spells that grant a free melee touch attack, ranged attack spells do not make that distinction).

Actually, ranged touch attacks have their own separate provoking rules.

prd:combat section wrote:

Ranged Touch Spells in Combat: Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively. Unless otherwise noted, ranged touch attacks cannot be held until a later turn.

So as far as I understand the rules, making a full attack with a bow does not provoke. But making a ranged attack as a standard action or casting a ranged touch spell does provoke.

While true, it still makes a distinction. e.g, if I have a spell that fires multiple rays (but not simultaneously) then I would provoke for each fired ray, despite still having only taken one action (cast a spell). So this particular mention that simultaneous rays only provokes once, shows the conversely, if they are not simultaneous, then there are multiple provocations.

Bran Towerfall wrote:

but, charging through one enemy's threatened squares (15 ft reach) would result in one aoo unless besides movement i did something that caused a second aoo.

like charging and drinking potion/ reading scroll
like charging and shooting bow in threat range

Movement is specifically called out as only provoking a single time per enemy, regardless of how many threatened squares you leave.