Can Celestial Armor be made of Mithral?


Rules Questions


13 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

I have seen this issue discussed a lot, but have seen no convincing RAW one way or another.

So, the question is this.

May Celestial armor be made of Mithral or any other special material to add the material bonuses on top of the existing effects of Celestial armor?

Please FAQ this if like me you are curious on this issue and would like a firm RAW answer.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

One there is no RAW answer.

The text of the armor however indicates that mithral would actually be heavier than the material the armor is actually made of.

Celestial chain armor is described as so thin that it can be worn under clothing. No such thing is said about mirthal armor which is still half the weight of the original.

That's as close to a raw answer that it can be.


I would say yes only because it does not say it is already mithral I just always assumed it was.


yes


LazarX wrote:

One there is no RAW answer.

The text of the armor however indicates that mithral would actually be heavier than the material the armor is actually made of.

Celestial chain armor is described as so thin that it can be worn under clothing. No such thing is said about mirthal armor which is still half the weight of the original.

That's as close to a raw answer that it can be.

I would agree there is no RAW on this. I have just seen it argued as RAW from both a YES and a NO perspective, often.

If you feel there is no RAW please feel free to click the FAQ button.


master_marshmallow wrote:
yes

Also, while I appreciate any feedback, as this is the Rules Section please provide supporting data for any assertions you make. At least a section, or page number.

As I stated in the first post I do not believe there is clear RAW for this and if I am incorrect would like the passages that prove such shown to me.

If on the other hand you find no clear RAW, please feel free to hit the FAQ button.

Edit: Humm I see that your yes was a link, my apologies for not seeing this at first.

I will now go link diving and see what there is.

My thanks.


Covent wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
yes

Also, while I appreciate any feedback, as this is the Rules Section please provide supporting data for any assertions you make. At least a section, or page number.

As I stated in the first post I do not believe there is clear RAW for this and if I am incorrect would like the passages that prove such shown to me.

If on the other hand you find no clear RAW, please feel free to hit the FAQ button.

Edit: Humm I see that your yes was a link, my apologies for not seeing this at first.

I will now go link diving and see what there is.

My thanks.

Within said link is another link to yet another previous thread.

The link I posted includes quotes from James Jacobs' personal interpretations which we generally accepted to be the closest we are ever going to get on the whole FAQ thing.

Citations are from Inner Sea Gods, Ultimate Equipment, and Ultimate Campaign, along with the Core Rulebook.

That thread should contain all the information you need to surmise your own interpretation of the rules.

Naturally, DM discretion trumps all.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

By RAW: No. Celestial armor is a unique item. Any and all modifications to it are completely homebrew.

Since it's homebrew, I would (as a DM) say "Hell no." It already has the benefits of mithral, plus a bit more, and to stack mithral over the top of that again could result in armors the AC of full plate with no ACP, a max dex of +8, and 5% ASF, which cannot be considered a fair thing. I would simply rule it requires a very specific material set that cannot be replaced. I do typically allow upgrading the +3 or adding bonus equivalents, though.


3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
master_marshmallow wrote:
Covent wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
yes

Also, while I appreciate any feedback, as this is the Rules Section please provide supporting data for any assertions you make. At least a section, or page number.

As I stated in the first post I do not believe there is clear RAW for this and if I am incorrect would like the passages that prove such shown to me.

If on the other hand you find no clear RAW, please feel free to hit the FAQ button.

Edit: Humm I see that your yes was a link, my apologies for not seeing this at first.

I will now go link diving and see what there is.

My thanks.

Within said link is another link to yet another previous thread.

The link I posted includes quotes from James Jacobs' personal interpretations which we generally accepted to be the closest we are ever going to get on the whole FAQ thing.

Citations are from Inner Sea Gods, Ultimate Equipment, and Ultimate Campaign, along with the Core Rulebook.

That thread should contain all the information you need to surmise your own interpretation of the rules.

Naturally, DM discretion trumps all.

After reading both threads I would say the RAW for this is still very murky.

I would also assert that the FAQ's here are:

1.) Can Celestial Armor be made of Mithral?

2.) If the answer to question one is yes what is the total effect of Celestial + Mithral?

3.) If I make an armor type other than chain mail Celestial what are the effects?

4.) If I make an armor type other than chain mail Celestial and also make it of Mithral what are the effects?

Basically we need a codified "Celestial" enchantment to determine exactly how to answer all of these questions.

I appreciate the links but I do not see any clear RAW and the only developer response I see is from JJ, whom I respect, but who has also specifically asked not to be quoted on rules issues.

Also, I would say that those threads just prove this is an FAQ.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Covent wrote:
LazarX wrote:

One there is no RAW answer.

The text of the armor however indicates that mithral would actually be heavier than the material the armor is actually made of.

Celestial chain armor is described as so thin that it can be worn under clothing. No such thing is said about mirthal armor which is still half the weight of the original.

That's as close to a raw answer that it can be.

I would agree there is no RAW on this. I have just seen it argued as RAW from both a YES and a NO perspective, often.

If you feel there is no RAW please feel free to click the FAQ button.

I feel that the question is answered adequately within the flavor text and needs no further response. It's not an issue for PFS, and I've already made my determination for my home campaigns.


LazarX wrote:
Covent wrote:
LazarX wrote:

One there is no RAW answer.

The text of the armor however indicates that mithral would actually be heavier than the material the armor is actually made of.

Celestial chain armor is described as so thin that it can be worn under clothing. No such thing is said about mirthal armor which is still half the weight of the original.

That's as close to a raw answer that it can be.

I would agree there is no RAW on this. I have just seen it argued as RAW from both a YES and a NO perspective, often.

If you feel there is no RAW please feel free to click the FAQ button.

I feel that the question is answered adequately within the flavor text and needs no further response. It's not an issue for PFS, and I've already made my determination for home campaigns.

Do you feel this way even noting that the flavor text was changed in Ultimate Equipment?

Please, also note that while you and all other individuals are free and encouraged to make decisions for home campaigns, I am searching for the RAW. I would assert that this question comes up often and that it definitely meets the standard of "Frequently Asked".

Please see the threads linked earlier for proof that this has come up before and is a contentious issue.


RAW you can make the specific armor out of different materials.

DM's interpretation figures out how it works.

That's the best answer you will get on the forums.

Personally, I believe that the process of creating Celestial Armor changes the base stats of the armor to those presented in the item's description. Once that is determined, because it is mithral, you apply the properties of mithral and adjust the stats accordingly.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
master_marshmallow wrote:

RAW you can make the specific armor out of different materials.

But RAW does not say the impact of using different materials on celestial armor. From the description, it's already made out of the best lightest material possible.


Covent wrote:

I have seen this issue discussed a lot, but have seen no convincing RAW one way or another.

So, the question is this.

May Celestial armor be made of Mithral or any other special material to add the material bonuses on top of the existing effects of Celestial armor?

Please FAQ this if like me you are curious on this issue and would like a firm RAW answer.

Does this help?


If things like this pop up in your game on a regular basis, i suggest you just say no costum items.


Celestial armor made of mithral would be worse, since it the text of celestial armor makes clear it's the lightest weight possible. So the question of whether you can do it is moot because the consequences would be negative. I think this is too obvious to be FAQ-worthy.


Celestial armor is 'special material' chainmail and weighs 20bs. Elven chain is light mithral chainmail and weighs 20lbs. Normal mithril chainmail is medium armor (for proficiency) and weighs 20lbs.

Even though the fluff and light armor proficiency would suggest elven chain is 'lighter' than normal mithril chain, it weighs the same and has a lower max dex bonus. EDIT; er, my bad, they have the same max dex.

The rules need an overhaul.


LazarX wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

RAW you can make the specific armor out of different materials.

But RAW does not say the impact of using different materials on celestial armor. From the description, it's already made out of the best lightest material possible.

Which is exactly what I said in the line directly under what you quoted.

Ughhhh I really don't wanna have this thread again.

Silver Crusade

Covent wrote:

I have seen this issue discussed a lot, but have seen no convincing RAW one way or another.

So, the question is this.

May Celestial armor be made of Mithral or any other special material to add the material bonuses on top of the existing effects of Celestial armor?

Please FAQ this if like me you are curious on this issue and would like a firm RAW answer.

In PFS? No.

Outside of PFS? Ask your GM, their ruling takes precedence.


I hit the FAQ button. I wont bother with debating because I know it wont do any good.


By RAW, yes, but it feels like you are stacking the same bonus twice in the armor, the "property that makes this armor one category lighter" bonus. Just think the price should reflect the bonus of having a light armor that protects like heavy armor.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

This is an example of a Splitered RAW, where each GM may have a different interpretation which allows Mithril Celestial or does not allow it.

In any game I'm running, your Mithril Celestial is just a more expensive Celestial with no changes from the base item.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

It's a unique item. There is no set answer. The GM would have to approve the characteristics for the desired final item, and then assign a gold piece value to it.

Off-hand, I would say, it already appears to be made of nonstandard materials, or something has been done to it that causes standard materials to behave in a nonstandard way. It seems unlikely that mithral celestial armor would be better than celestial armor.

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