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I would play a Summoner that went without the summon SLA completely.
I'd rather have one that could build multiple eidolons, say one per every four levels, but only have one out at a time.
...I think my Final Fantasy is showing. :P
Into the Breach: Summoner has something quite close to what you're looking for. Eidolon Master. You get 1 Eidolon per 2 Summoner levels. Can only have one out at a time, and each of them share a single hit point total. However, each one can have a different list of evolutions and so on.
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Into the Breach: Summoner has something quite close to what you're looking for. Eidolon Master. You get 1 Eidolon per 2 Summoner levels. Can only have one out at a time, and each of them share a single hit point total. However, each one can have a different list of evolutions and so on.I would play a Summoner that went without the summon SLA completely.
I'd rather have one that could build multiple eidolons, say one per every four levels, but only have one out at a time.
...I think my Final Fantasy is showing. :P
I refuse to acknowledge this, if only because you JUST described how to make a Pokemon Trainer in D&D to a "T".
And nothing that awesome/awful should ever exist.
A real test of the new summoner will be "what kind of concepts can I make with it?" If the answer is "more things than the old summoner" than I will be quite happy, even if it is a little weaker mechanically.
The way you phrase that, we might as well be talking about the shop's janitor rather than the Creative Director. Show the man some respect, he's not a mere "employee".
I did. I showed him all he's due. He's not more than an employee either. Don't project your concept of an "employee" on to me.
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The way you phrase that, we might as well be talking about the shop's janitor rather than the Creative Director. Show the man some respect, he's not a mere "employee".I did. I showed him all he's due. He's not more than an employee either. Don't project your concept of an "employee" on to me.
Except by saying "one employee" you're dismissing his position.
It's like saying that the opinion of Production Assistant matters as much as the Cinematographer's in how a movie should be filmed.
Creative Director means that he's the Cinematographer - his opinion matters more than most other employees, period, not just because he's higher on the food chain, but because his title EXPLICITLY calls out that all things "creative" fall under his jurisdiction.
Except by saying "one employee" you're dismissing his stance.
No, I'm not.
It's like saying that the opinion of Production Assistant matters as much as the Cinematographer's in how a movie should be filmed.
No, if I wanted to say the opinion of Production Assistant matters as much as the Cinematographer's I would say so.
Creative Director means that he's the Cinematographer - his opinion matters more than most other employees, period, not just because he's higher on the food chain, but because his title EXPLICITLY calls out that all things "creative" fall under his jurisdiction.
And? He's still simply a Paizo employee. More or less important is entirely secondary.
A real test of the new summoner will be "what kind of concepts can I make with it?" If the answer is "more things than the old summoner" than I will be quite happy, even if it is a little weaker mechanically.
Honestly, I'm okay if the end result isn't even "more things than the old summoner"
Quality over Quantity, kinda - while the Eidolons of the basic Summoner allow for lots of mixing and matching, I'd rather be able to play a Summoner in the vein of Johann Faust summoning Mephistopholes.
Sure there are ways for the DM to create enemies like Devil-bound creatures, or even players to somehow make contracts with a Contract Devil. But there hasn't been any real hard-coded rules to let a player summon a signature Angel, Elemental, etc. from level 1 onward - you always need high-level spells like Planar Ally or similar spell for that.
Creative Director
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If this will be how they wanted the Summoner to be, why didn't they do it that way in the first place?
Also, what category of outsider does the Balthazar's super chicken fall into?
It's one particular Paizo employee's vision of what they wanted it to be.
Balazar isn't changing.
And is the Paizo employee is specifically the one Paizo pays for his opinions to shape and grow the game in the first place. THAT SAID... I'm not the one who actually decided to make Balazar's eidolon into a snake chicken. That was Wayne Reynolds. The original art for Balazar had his eidolon looking like a bear. We had Wayne redraw the bear into a monster, and gave him pretty much complete creative freedom to make the monster look like anything he wanted pretty much.
Balazar isn't changing, and his eidolon remains his eidolon and isn't changing appearance regardless of if he's statted up using the APG rules or the Unchained rules. The solution we came up with is really pretty pleasing and deligthful to myself AND to the design team.
I'll have more to say about that later, once the book is out.
I wouldn't be surprised if Balazar's eidolon was a protean or something. I mean, look at the serpent-y ness of the body and the random head attached to it.
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Into the Breach: Summoner has something quite close to what you're looking for. Eidolon Master. You get 1 Eidolon per 2 Summoner levels. Can only have one out at a time, and each of them share a single hit point total. However, each one can have a different list of evolutions and so on.I would play a Summoner that went without the summon SLA completely.
I'd rather have one that could build multiple eidolons, say one per every four levels, but only have one out at a time.
...I think my Final Fantasy is showing. :P
As much as I love Pokemon and being a trainer that's...a bit much. Namely because of how many character sheets you'll have to keep track of.
As much as I love Pokemon and being a trainer that's...a bit much. Namely because of how many character sheets you'll have to keep track of.Into the Breach: Summoner has something quite close to what you're looking for. Eidolon Master. You get 1 Eidolon per 2 Summoner levels. Can only have one out at a time, and each of them share a single hit point total. However, each one can have a different list of evolutions and so on.I would play a Summoner that went without the summon SLA completely.
I'd rather have one that could build multiple eidolons, say one per every four levels, but only have one out at a time.
...I think my Final Fantasy is showing. :P
You do an entire character sheet for an eidolon?
I put a stat block on a note card.
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The solution we came up with is really pretty pleasing and deligthful to myself AND to the design team.
Here's hoping it is pleasing to most of* the rest of us as well.
And is the Paizo employee is specifically the one Paizo pays for his opinions to shape and grow the game in the first place.
As if anyone else would be making those decisions?
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Two big threads on summoners and still not really a good discussion of specific changes outside of general discussion around the outsider types vs not having outsider types/archetypes.
Things I noted from the quick skim:
* Summoner now has access to obscuring mist, fog cloud and stinking cloud (probably more along this vein).
* Summoner spells no longer special levels. Haste and slow are back as 3rd level spells (which means access happens at 7th instead of 4th).
* Pounce evolution now requires level 7 and is a 3-pt evolution (previously could be taken at level 1 as a 1-pt evolution).
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Pounce evolution now requires level 7 and is a 3-pt evolution (previously could be taken at level 1 as a 1-pt evolution).
And I quote myself to comment. :)
I'm surprised this never made it into errata for the APG. It felt like this was something that should work similar to the druid companions and was probably the single easiest thing to tweak to help deal with eidolons outshining melee-types at low levels. Simply add a sentence to the APG version that said: The summoner must be at least 7th level before selecting this evolution.
Is it possible to get a more magic using Eidolon now? Such as a Genie Eidolon or such?
The spell list replacement. Does it only effect what was previously printed in UM? Do spells from splat books still get added?
Because if so then Phantom Chariot, which was added in UC, is still a Summoner spell.
The spell list replacement. Does it only effect what was previously printed in UM? Do spells from splat books still get added?
Because if so then Phantom Chariot, which was added in UC, is still a Summoner spell.
It looks like spells from the ACG, APG, UC, and UM were included in their class list, which means they may well have changed level right along with the core spells.
Neat.
as a random note to part of a convo half a page ago..
I'd love giving up summon monster sla in exchange for putting evolutions on myself more early and differing amounts in some way.
Honestly that was what I wanted with a summoner a lot.. the summon and taking aspects (or partial summon as flavor). Sort persona like. Which admiitdly looks a lot more like the occult class.. but not quite.
I wonder if this is one of the books that will go up on the paizo prd? I'm honestly never sure which books end up on that. Though really am hoping that this and occult will.. Since my online group only uses stuff on that site *regardless if I bought it myself, since online they can't really see my copy readily
Pretty much everything on in the hardcover rule book line ends up on the PFSRD, so I wouldn't worry about them skipping this book.
Pretty much everything on in the hardcover rule book line ends up on the PFSRD, so I wouldn't worry about them skipping this book.Neat.
as a random note to part of a convo half a page ago..
I'd love giving up summon monster sla in exchange for putting evolutions on myself more early and differing amounts in some way.
Honestly that was what I wanted with a summoner a lot.. the summon and taking aspects (or partial summon as flavor). Sort persona like. Which admiitdly looks a lot more like the occult class.. but not quite.
I wonder if this is one of the books that will go up on the paizo prd? I'm honestly never sure which books end up on that. Though really am hoping that this and occult will.. Since my online group only uses stuff on that site *regardless if I bought it myself, since online they can't really see my copy readily
It'll be up on the PRD and on d20pfsrd.
d20pfsrd usually takes a few weeks to a month after publication for stuff to get up on there.
The PRD could be updated tomorrow, or in 2 months. It doesn't take long, but unless it's listed under the Pathfinder Society headline, it's gonna be on the PRD, guaranteed (and even the Technology Guide ended up on the PRD, weirdly enough).
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General changes I noticed:
Eidolons now have a default alignment based on type and the summoner must be within one step of that alignment.
The second most terrible thing for me. What happens if the summoner changes alignment? Do they lose a class feature, or have to pick a different type of outside and recreate an entire character's worth of stats again?
First thing: no more dragons, or animals, or plants or insects. No, that's a Angel. Or a Protean. No matter what it looks like, you've gotta add in those facts, and it just subtracts from the fun of an Eidolon for me. :/
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General changes I noticed:
Eidolons now have a default alignment based on type and the summoner must be within one step of that alignment.
The second most terrible thing for me. What happens if the summoner changes alignment? Do they lose a class feature, or have to pick a different type of outside and recreate an entire character's worth of stats again?
First thing: no more dragons, or animals, or plants or insects. No, that's a Angel. Or a Protean. No matter what it looks like, you've gotta add in those facts, and it just subtracts from the fun of an Eidolon for me. :/
Except that was already true in many ways. I mean, they were already an Outsider...how did you justify that any more easily than it being an Elemental or Protean?
Because they weren't specific types. I could say it was anything. Now it's always an deva or a pyscopomp or something. No more manifestations of nature itself, because that's a Azata or a Protean.
I get that the Summoner is a complicated class and people are more likely to look for help with figuring it out, but in a home game you've got time to work that out between sessions. Post a forum thread, ask a friend, sleep on it, agree to play it for a session and revisit it later. Is this class really so complex that people can't cope?It's a class that's a veritable minefield, when you have a lot of players who are running Summoners as their first characters ever especially if the GM running them is also new to the class.
It IS a complex class, perhaps the most complex class in the game.
not even close. Not with the introduction of all the new occult classes. the phantom--which can be incorporal or plasma. GMing tonight with somone playing a water kineticist or some class where he could control water. He tried to tell me he could control the water and have the characters swim in the bubbles as he had the water float down a 10 by 10 chute 30 feet down.
When I explained that "control water" the spell it uses to describe that--doesnt work that way--he than said he used the decanter of water to fill the tunnel leading down--I explained that the water just kept pouring down the tunnel. he told me he could control the water and make it do whatever he wanted--to include any form--even making dragons.
the occult classes are BY FAR the worst classes for confusion.
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The Occult Classes haven't exactly been introduced yet...what with the ones we've seen being the playtest version and all. One imagines the final versions will be a bit more clear, even if there is some confusion now.
Also, nothing in Kineticist supports your GM's shenanigans at all. So that one's not the Class's fault at all, but said GM's.
Because they weren't specific types. I could say it was anything. Now it's always an deva or a pyscopomp or something. No more manifestations of nature itself, because that's a Azata or a Protean.
At least Paizo can use this as an opportunity to throw in dozens of crazy eidolon types!
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Wow, are we gonna see "will the summoner fall?" threads in the future?
It's even better than with the paladins because the summoner can "fall" in so many directions.
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I admit I never was a fan of this class. The main class feature to me should have been the SLA to smin Monster "x" and not the outsider. I think the class should have another name.
The class abilities are almost exclusive to the Eidolon , once it out if the equation the class abilities other than SLA's are moot.
The master summoner archetype to me was the "true" version of the class but players had to be prepared in advance to play and swarming an encounter with multiple uses of the SLA could slow the game down a lot and make it harder to the GM to prepare for.
The only thing I "think" will be a problem with the unchained summoner is eidolon a will die fAster and just disable a summoner class abilities faster.
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2015, and allignment gating still finds a way to sneak into gaming. I guess we are never going to get rid of it.
2015, and allignment gating still finds a way to sneak into gaming. I guess we are never going to get rid of it.
Sure you will; just use the removing alignment system from page 100. Now everyone is unchained from alignment restrictions; you're freeeeeee!
Mark, i have no problem when i'm in charge, i can just make things i don't like go away. But the reason why we have 12000 of written page for a make believe game is for everyone playing it to be on the same page (pun intended). If something is a problem, an optional rule is not a fix in 99% of the cases.
So the question once again become what are the benefit of this alignment gating and why it was necessary to have it? I'd love to hear it from you guys. Maybe understanding is gonna make me hate it a bit less.
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Mark, i have no problem when i'm in charge, i can just make things i don't like go away. But the reason why we have 12000 of written page for a make believe game is for everyone playing it to be on the same page (pun intended). If something is a problem, an optional rule is not a fix in 99% of the cases.
So the question once again become what are the benefit of this alignment gating and why it was necessary to have it? I'd love to hear it from you guys. Maybe understanding is gonna make me hate it a bit less.
Didn't write that part, but I imagine this was the thought process (remember, these are guesses, but I do see why this would fall out logically):
Question 1: Should there be some correspondence of alignment between summoner and eidolon?
Decision: Yes. Especially given that the eidolons are going to refuse actions, so a CE summoner of an archon would just have the archon refuse pretty much everything anyway. It's going to lead to even more conflict at the table if the GM keeps having the apparently-legal eidolon refuse to help all the time.
Question 2: What should the restriction be, one step or two steps?
Decision: Two steps still allows a CN summoner summon an inevitable or a NG summoner summon a daemon, etc. One step is the way to go.
Question 3: In that case, what if the summoner changes alignments?
Decision: Basically they either lose the eidolon or they get another eidolon. If they get another eidolon, then it basically makes playing an alignment roulette character who changes alignments every day allows infinite free rebuilds of your eidolon. Meanwhile, a summoner who only had the summon monster ability and not the eidolon is far ahead of, say, an ex-paladin or ex-druid, and they're still a pretty useful character to have around. Thus, the former option (lose the eidolon) leads to less of an issue than the latter.
So that's my guess of the logic. Make sense?
The basic question is 'why is removing alignment an optional rule instead of adding alignment being the optional rule'. :)
How could it be otherwise? Unchained may let you remove all those kinds of shackles, but it can't go back in time and make them not be the default :P
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The basic question is 'why is removing alignment an optional rule instead of adding alignment being the optional rule'. :)How could it be otherwise? Unchained may let you remove all those kinds of shackles, but it can't go back in time and make them not be the default :P
Your logic makes sense, and i already runned it. But my "problem" is about the premise.
Why didn't you stick to the idea of the eidolon being an emanation of the summoner, always sharing his allignment and only taking a physical form resembling one specific outsider, mechanically similar to the old "base form" approach of the old ones?
Basically, maintaining the extablished lore/flavor of the summoner, witch i think everybody agrees being the better part of it, and keeping the overhaul only at a mechanical level?
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You might also houserule one step on each axis. A Protean doesn't really care if you're TN, NE, or NG.
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Your logic makes sense, and i already runned it. But my "problem" is about the premise.
Why didn't you stick to the idea of the eidolon being an emanation of the summoner, always sharing his allignment and only taking a physical form resembling one specific outsider, mechanically similar to the old "base form" approach of the old ones?
Basically, maintaining the extablished lore/flavor of the summoner, witch i think everybody agrees being the better part of it, and keeping the overhaul only at a mechanical level?
I don't think everybody is agreed on that point. Summoner fluff was extremely limited, and didn't give any direction or tie-ins with other stuff. Having a bunch of "demon in name only" eidolons that are LG or whatever would separate summoner a from any existing lore again.
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It's saddening that question three is obviously based on a "that guy" being the norm.
Quick Question: Are the evolutions from Ultimate Magic still valid for Unchained Eidolons?
I normally play a sorcerer with a Voidwurm Protean as an Improved Familiar. I've been considering respecting using Variant Multiclassing into Summoner to pick my Voidwurm up as an Eidolon instead.
This would really only be feasible if some of the Ultimate Magic Evolutions like Basic Magic, Minor Magic, and Major Magic were still available. As far as I can see, there's pretty much no way to grant magic to an Eidolon using the Unchained Evolutions, aside from energy damage on attacks and as a breath weapon.
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It's saddening that question three is obviously based on a "that guy" being the norm.
It's probably that it's easier on the social dynamic of the table to have a less exploitable rule where the GM can make exceptions for unusual situations than to have an exploitable rule that the GM has to prohibit. It's better overall because the GM often ends up coming off as friendly for making an exception but potentially as a "tyrant" for reining things in.
If I was writing the section, I might have even made that more explicit and provided a nudge, adding "At the GM's discretion, in extraordinary circumstances the summoner might receive a new eidolon" because at my table, if a player played out a really cool redemption arc and wanted to change their demon to an azata as part of that, I'd be all for it.
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I don't think it's particularly exploitable since a PC choosing to flip flop his allignment daily is actually impossible.
DMs decide how your alignment changes, not the player. If a player chose to change alignments every day then one of two things happen
1. DM says: No, you're still NG. I don't know why you would wake up one day and decide you're LE.
2. Players say: Dude that's dumb. Why would we be adventuring with some dude who dangerously switches between personalities and alignments daily?
Option 3
That player doesn't exist in the group because normal people aren't focused on making their DMs lives miserable and their gaming group bored.
This comes off as a very misguided decision to protect players from "That Guy" at the detriment of good and honest players.
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What they could have done.
1) Limited the number of EP that could be used for damage dealing attacks. Give these evolutions a "combat" designation.
2) Made the "chassis" archetypes rather than a required element.
3) Added some evolutions to make the class more customizable, such as a 2 pts for additional feat.
4) Revised some evolutions to make them more attractive, such as the spell like ability evolutions from UM and weapon use, again, creating more options without increasing the power of the class.
5) Added archetypes/starting forms with higher mental ability scores in exchange for lower physical ability scores.
6) Limit the Summon monster ability to 1+cha per day.
What they did right.
1) Revised the spell list.
2) Weakened the eidilon.
Analysis: On a Meta level, they should, in designing the NERF, have considered the aspirations of APG summoner fans as well the general outcry for a Nerf.
Had they listened better, the result would have been a nearly united fan base singing the praises of Paizo yet again. This is unfortunate, because the Paizo staff in most cases has been uncommonly good at listening. This time, that process fell apart, perhaps because the nerfers were too loud or perhaps people on the design teams became too entrenched it their opinions. All I 'll say to this is, keep it mind for the future.
Instead there is a divided reaction that has some people saying good job, but a probably an equal number of people saying some variation "this is not what I had in mind". The result will probably be continued grumbling and dissatisfaction, resulting in both versions of the summoner being equally unpopular as well as lots of home game variations along lines of APG summoner, unchained spell list.
Hope I am wrong, take care,
Kerney
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A real test of the new summoner will be "what kind of concepts can I make with it?" If the answer is "more things than the old summoner" than I will be quite happy, even if it is a little weaker mechanically.
Prepare to be a sad panda.
... Why do I have to be level 2 to give an my ediolon a sword?