Shield Champion Question

[GreyBlack]

So. The Brawler archetype, Shield Champion contains the following text:

"At 11th level, a shield champion gains Shield Master as a bonus feat. She must meet all prerequisites before selecting that feat."

The Brawler's Flurry states that, when using Brawler's Flurry, the brawler gains Two Weapon Fighting. My question is: Does a Shield Champion need to take Two Weapon Fighting in order to gain Shield Master? If not, how does this work in conjunction with Brawler's Flurry?

[DM_Blake]

Good question.

As far as I can tell, you do have the TWF feat, at least some of the time, which means you can use it to qualify for the Shield Master feat.

But don't forget the general rule that says that if you lose a feat for some reason, and that feat is a prerequisite for a second feat, you will lose access to the second feat until you regain the first feat. So, that means that if you use your Brawler's Flurry to qualify for Shield Master, then you lose Shield Master all the time except when you are flurrying.

[Komoda]

Most people seem to agree that you must be using the Flurry to have it if you do not have the actual feats.

Another option is to use the marital flexibility to gain the feat as the prereq when you want to use it. But you probably already thought of that.

[GreyBlack]

For me, I'm trying to build a captain America build, but don't know if having flurry qualifies me or if I need to burn a feat, which would make my build significantly more MAD than I would like it.

[Scott Way]

GreyBlack wrote:

For me, I'm trying to build a captain America build, but don't know if having flurry qualifies me or if I need to burn a feat, which would make my build significantly more MAD than I would like it.

Yes you would need to take the feat TWF. Flurry treats you as having the feat for your attack progression mainly. And the martial training would work during an encounter. But it is limited by rounds per day if not mistaken.

[Komoda]

The Achetype is exactly the Captain America build. What are you trying to do that was not answered by DM_Blake and myself?

But keep in mind, Shield Champion is broken, I don't mean overpowered, but a lot of it is simply broken so you might run into some problems with non-lenient GMs.

For one, there is a case that you are not even proficient with shields as a weapon!

[Komoda]

Scott Way wrote:

GreyBlack wrote:

For me, I'm trying to build a captain America build, but don't know if having flurry qualifies me or if I need to burn a feat, which would make my build significantly more MAD than I would like it.

Yes you would need to take the feat TWF. Flurry treats you as having the feat for your attack progression mainly. And the martial training would work during an encounter. But it is limited by rounds per day if not mistaken.

Actually, the Brawler version treats you as if having Two-Weapon Fighting when you are using the Flurry. This is specifically different than the Monk version, so that might be the confusion.

ACG p24 wrote:

When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the “monk” special feature.

[GreyBlack]

Komoda wrote:

The Achetype is exactly the Captain America build. What are you trying to do that was not answered by DM_Blake and myself?

But keep in mind, Shield Champion is broken, I don't mean overpowered, but a lot of it is simply broken so you might run into some problems with non-lenient GMs.

For one, there is a case that you are not even proficient with shields as a weapon!

Oh, nothing hasn't been answered. I was just hoping that someone had some errata that I didn't know. The wording is just confusing and my GM tends towards RAW rather than RAI, so to satiate him, I wanted to know if I needed TWF for the bonus feat. Basically, the answer just seems to be that, when I flurry, I qualify, but if not, I don't.

[Scott Way]

GreyBlack wrote:

Komoda wrote:

The Achetype is exactly the Captain America build. What are you trying to do that was not answered by DM_Blake and myself?

But keep in mind, Shield Champion is broken, I don't mean overpowered, but a lot of it is simply broken so you might run into some problems with non-lenient GMs.

For one, there is a case that you are not even proficient with shields as a weapon!

Oh, nothing hasn't been answered. I was just hoping that someone had some errata that I didn't know. The wording is just confusing and my GM tends towards RAW rather than RAI, so to satiate him, I wanted to know if I needed TWF for the bonus feat. Basically, the answer just seems to be that, when I flurry, I qualify, but if not, I don't.

Or by using Martial Flexibility but yes

[Ryndar79]

As I understand it, you can always "Brawler's Flurry" on your turn. Hence you always have access to "Brawler's Fury" therefor you have Two Weapon Fighter all the time.

Using Brawler's Fury takes the same action economy as using Two Weapon Fighting Mechanics, in such that they are both Full Round Actions.

Shield Master gives benefits that can be used while not Two Weapon Fighting. Therefor as I understand it, you can benefit from those parts of Shield Master even when not using Brawler's Fury, because you don't lose those benefits when you don't use Two Weapon Fighting.

So since you can Two Weapon Fight anytime you want, as if you have those feats, deciding not to use those feats in the way you have them, shouldn't prevent you from using other feats, if those feats don't require you to actual Two Weapon Fight to use them.

Shield Master (Combat)

Your mastery of the shield allows you to fight with it without hindrance.

Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, Shield Slam, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +11.

Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. Add your shield’s enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls made with the shield as if it were a weapon enhancement bonus.

At no points does it say you have to use the feat two weapon fighting+ to gain these benefits.

[Komoda]

If you do not currently have a feat that is required for a prerequisite, you cannot use the feats that require it.

So, the problem here is that if you are not using Brawler's Fury, you don't have the prereq required to use Shield Master.

[Java Man]

Nice, double-thread-two-year-necro combo with matching rebuttals.

[Komoda]

Java Man wrote:

Nice, double-thread-two-year-necro combo with matching rebuttals.

Nice! A pointless post about something you don't care about anyway. Is it really a problem that someone else wanted to talk about it?

[Java Man]

Not a problem at all.

Since we are talking about it, how does this situation compare to a ranger wearing heavy armor and losing access to his bonus feats, assuming a similiar situation where they are being used as pqs?

The ranger case is clear, so how does a brawler not using flurry dicfer from the ranger?

[Melkiador]

Because the choices are harsher. A ranger would have to make a choice to hamper themselves. The shield champion merely has to be denied the ability to make a full attack action.