minoritarian Its from a song bro Stephen Lynch
Some people can't laugh at themselves and the world. Some people are over sensitive. Different strokes for different folks. Its why some people form friendships with like minded people.Lets a good representation of Intelligence. There was a Movie Called Idiocracy. One of my favorite movies. It is about the army test on suspended animation to keep the best soldiers alive and ready when they are needed. During the test they chose Joe who is the most average person in the entire armed forces and froze him. He wakes up in the way future and everyone else has become rather stupid. Using Joe as an average 10 here is a Clip of a 10 talking to about a 5 intelligence group of people. trying to convince them to stop watering the crops of food with Brawndo (gatorade) and use water (which they only use now to flush toilets and call toilet water.)
A 7 would be much better off and I liked what one person gave an example of Joey from the friends show. He is a perfect 7 in terms of intelligence.
lol, love that movie.
I think the idiocracy example was best. Some, but not all, unintelligent people address very self assured about their decisions. Think about how many people try fad diets with no hope of success.
Gems from unintelligent people in my past:
American college student to my English roommate: "you're from England? Did you drive here?"
-》turns into someone on Golarion "you're from Absalom? That's a long way for a horse."
American high school student "did Susan b. Anthony free the slaves?" (She was not referring to freeing women from domestication), -> "Desna killed Rovagug with her paintbrush right?
"When was the US founded?" - "12" - *silence*
Even very knowledgeable people can be total dummies outside their subject. "Tide goes in, tide goes out. You can't explain that!" - bill oreilly.
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I noticed all your examples are american. You're a racist, dood, I'm 'murican too, and we're not stupid. Lak, if we're at least 20% of the world population, we're all at least 7 int.
*clears throat* right, so we have Bill O'reilly, the Harvard graduate, as living proof that our educational standards are slipping. But I argue this - Just because our nation has a -2 int penalty, we are also mostly rogues, so we have more skill points to make up for it. That's also why we have really good sports teams: stat dumping for the 18 dex/con/str teams! Fo' reaaals maannnnn.
@Aemesh: Americans aren't a race. Just sayin'. ;)
@Aemesh: Americans aren't a race. Just sayin'. ;)
lol, part of the joke man
I'm thinking Homer Simpson
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lol. Well, whatever. I seem to be getting some hate because I think players who dump stats are munchkins. All these assumptions, though, like it's all about me, or I'm just being a diva - it couldn't instead be that players DO abuse the pts buy mechanic regularly? When 7 int paladins are the standard, for example, you wonder why these religions seem to go out of their way to pick the dumbest people to protect their churches. Players get really creative about their reasons for coming to the table with sub-par stats, and claim it's just for the character, just RP. But why is it that most of the players who do it, do it for *every* character they make. and no, it's not just mental stats - but INT and Wis particularly affect a character's ability to solve problems, talk to npcs, and potentially have other skills than sneaking and killing. I'm not saying that it's ALWAYS the case - but in all my years of gaming, I've noticed a pattern; They're called one-dimensional characters. It's not a sin - like I've said already - to play one now and then. I just think its boring. It also puts a lot more of the weight of creativity on your other party members - also, not always a bad thing, especially when you're a veteran, and you want to give the newer players some face time.
But when a player shows up to my game sessions, and every time they roll a character its a 7 int/ 7 wis , 18 dex 14 cha rogue (a somehow adorably stupid ninja) or yet another dopey brute, I start to think, it's not about the character, it's just about the numbers. I don't need to be in the spotlight as a dm. I just prefer players who have a little more depth to their characters. If you can make me a truly believable character with those same dump stats, I'm all for it. But if you keep doing it? really? Every time? All they want to do is play ignorant, judgement-impaired killers? *sigh*
Anyway, if I'm being unreasonable by requesting some variety from my players, is it not just as unreasonable for them to expect that I'll go through the time and effort to put together a campaign that's more than just a killy-room with lots of mobs and loot? Somehow though, if I bash consistent stat dumpers, that means I'm a passive aggressive diva. Lol.. and that argument was presented so.. passive aggressively.
By the way has it ever occurred to anyone to play a paladin with *gasp* some 14's, instead of those two 16's?
I would play them as someone who had little to no schooling, or that schooling or teachings had no lasting effect on him. Int mechanically effects how much you know (or how educated you are really), nothing else except perhaps your ability to process information from the gods. it does not effect your cognitive processes.
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Anyway, if I'm being unreasonable by requesting some variety from my players, is it not just as unreasonable for them to expect that I'll go through the time and effort to put together a campaign that's more than just a killy-room with lots of mobs and loot? Somehow though, if I bash consistent stat dumpers, that means I'm a passive aggressive diva. Lol.. and that argument was presented so.. passive aggressively.
the issue is, is player's should be able to play what ever they want inside the rules. you can request they play with some more variety in their stats, but your influence on the issue should end there. If you want someone to play with higher stats than 7, raise the stat floor, or give them a stat array.
there are ways you can stop this that don't involve you effecting the gameplay. this should only be brought up or effect anything at character creation.
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When 7 int paladins are the standard, for example, you wonder why these religions seem to go out of their way to pick the dumbest people to protect their churches.
And when int 7 dishwashers and janitors are the standard, do you also wonder why restaurants seem to go out of the way to pick the dumbest people to wash their dirty dishes? And why schools and offices go out of their way to pick the dumbest people to sweep the floors?
In the real world, people gravitate to jobs that they can do. If you're strong but not smart, you're not going to get a job as a surgeon or a wizard. But if you're strong, not smart, lawful good, and very pious..... maybe you could become a paladin.
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Int mechanically effects how much you know (or how educated you are really), nothing else except perhaps your ability to process information from the gods. it does not effect your cognitive processes.
Well, yes, if you ignore the actual words of the rules text....
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The intelligence score has always been really funny to me because a humanoid with a 7 intelligence is about as smart as your pet rock but an animal with a 7 intelligence is a brilliant and elusive hunter with the capacity to outsmart the party on a regular basis.Well, regular velociraptors have the following stat block:
Str 15, Dex 15, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 14
And has better base saves than an 8th level fighter.They are wiser and have stronger personality than your average human. INT 2 is also as smart as your average dog (and they can do some pretty neat tricks). Look at what raptors can do with just INT 2.
INT 7 would be twice as intelligent. *shudders*
Arguably, Animals make better decisions than Humanoids that have below-average but still higher-than-Animal Intelligence because the Animals are in other respects adapted to functioning normally with low Intelligence.
But D&D and Pathfinder do not give Animals enough credit for Intelligence. Examples of Animals figuring out how to use tools (most recently crows) on their own pop up in the news every now and then, and I have personally met a dog who knew how to open doors (and knew how to make me feel REALLY BAD for not letting him open the door into the guest house of the relatives I was staying with . . .).
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A 13 int fighter has 4 skills per level, vs a 7 int rogue with 6 per level. Depending on skill choice the two very different characters could appear almost the same.
Home Simpson may not be a good example. He operates a nuclear reactor. He's actually a pretty gifted driver. But he really can't do much outside the usual range of thing he always does. He was briefly a figurehead junior Vice President and he could sort of fake that. he's probably more of a 9.
Home Simpson may not be a good example. He operates a nuclear reactor. He's actually a pretty gifted driver.
Aside from the frequent car crashes and meltdowns.
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The fighter is spending most of his time and effort learning things other than skills - namely how to fight. Meanwhile miscellaneous skills make up a good part of the rogue's focus. When a hobbyist or dabbler is almost keeping up with a specialist, the hobbyist is clearly a better learner.
It's not terribly realistic that skill points is the only area faster learning speed shows up (an Int 7 and Int 13 fighter are equally good at fighting, all else equal), but having XP gain depend on Int would not be balanced.
Homer Simpson may not be a good example. He operates a nuclear reactor.
But he really can't do much outside the usual range of thing he always does.
That's... very much a low Int thing. Fewer skill points means less room to dabble.
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For the OP, as was said up thread, Forest Gump is about right. Only saw it once about five years ago. Forest was above average in wisdom. If 3.PF had a Luck attribute his would be off the scale.
I'd say Forest was more of a 4-5ish. His IQ was in the 60's (just below the line of 70 to officially make him mentally challenged) and I'm with those that say IQ doesn't equal Intx10 considering the bell curve of IQ vs 3d6.
I think the int penalty to number of skill points and a penalty to total scores of int based skills covers the effects of low intelligence.
You know less given the same effort and are not as good at certain skill given the same amount of training.
Int 3 you can speak.
How well you sound depends on your charisma and wisdom and what you are talking about.
Lets say knowledge geography...you roll a negative 2. People will think you're a moron dispite how eloquently you say it.
Lets say you have wis 10 and 1 rank in profession barrister and get a total of 15. Well you will probably sound pretty smart on that topic or at least not dumb.
So a low int, morederate wis character still has many untrained skills that are not int based he can use and not suck at them.
Wis, char and overall skill totals along with int make up how smart you are/sound.
So rolling aside those numbers should give you a good gage.
Also I'm playing an int 19, wis 10, char 12 character that talks in the third person and has terrible grammar.
Did you read or see the first movie of the Hobbit? Remember the troll scene? Trolls are Int 7.
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^No, I think those trolls were more in the vicinity of 4. They were REALLY dumb (both in the movie and in the book) -- even dumber than the average people in Idiocracy (and that's saying something).
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The fighter is spending most of his time and effort learning things other than skills - namely how to fight. Meanwhile miscellaneous skills make up a good part of the rogue's focus. When a hobbyist or dabbler is almost keeping up with a specialist, the hobbyist is clearly a better learner.
It's not terribly realistic that skill points is the only area faster learning speed shows up (an Int 7 and Int 13 fighter are equally good at fighting, all else equal), but having XP gain depend on Int would not be balanced.
Homer Simpson may not be a good example. He operates a nuclear reactor.
That's the downside of taking 10 if the DC is too high. :)
But he really can't do much outside the usual range of thing he always does.That's... very much a low Int thing. Fewer skill points means less room to dabble.
Low, sure. 9 is low. But don't underestimate Mister Plow.
I like Joey from Friends as an example. He's reasonably good at what he does, but he is definitely capable of scoring negative results on general Knowledge checks.
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There are already some pretty reasonable rules for low intelligence reducing your skills too.mostly - for classes like fighters, or barbs, with only 2-4 skillpoints perlevel, low int reeeeeally sucks. But I've seen some pretty ridiculous rogue/ranger builds that were still viable even with the int penalty, because those classes get enough to make up for the int loss. Pcs drop a few favored class bonuses into their mix, and they're fine. Obviously not for knowledge checks or spellcraft- but since they're uber stealth snipers or dualwield-o-maniacs, they didn't care about that anyway, they just really wanted that extra 2 damage or whatever./QUOTE]
I'd consider any skill points granted by class over 2 (the lowest pic class bonus) to be a class feature (almost definitionally). I'd be very careful about changing that as it may unbalance classes, unless you plan to start ripping away class features from other classes for dropping stats.
Based on the race builder (flawed as it is) each flexible skill point per level is worth 4 race points. Greater than darkvision 120 ft., equal to +2 racial bonus to all saves.
There are already some pretty reasonable rules for low intelligence reducing your skills too.mostly - for classes like fighters, or barbs, with only 2-4 skillpoints perlevel, low int reeeeeally sucks. But I've seen some pretty ridiculous rogue/ranger builds that were still viable even with the int penalty, because those classes get enough to make up for the int loss. Pcs drop a few favored class bonuses into their mix, and they're fine. Obviously not for knowledge checks or spellcraft- but since they're uber stealth snipers or dualwield-o-maniacs, they didn't care about that anyway, they just really wanted that extra 2 damage or whatever./QUOTE]
I'd consider any skill points granted by class over 2 (the lowest pic class bonus) to be a class feature (almost definitionally). I'd be very careful about changing that as it may unbalance classes, unless you plan to start ripping away class features from other classes for dropping stats.
Based on the race builder (flawed as it is) each flexible skill point per level is worth 4 race points. Greater than darkvision 120 ft., equal to +2 racial bonus to all saves.
Yeah, ultimately I have to consider the fact that if I'm getting this much flak on the boards, my players may not agree with my distaste for the stat dumping/int penalty rules, even if they'll never say so to my face. For the most part they seem to be running parallel in my feelings for our trouble player (the guy with the super-optimized characters) but I'm gonna have to bend the knee here - the problem isn't the int rules, rather the attitude of one (two, sorta) players that don't really seem to care about the same game elements as the others.
Ah well, can't penalize everyone for the actions of a few.
There are already some pretty reasonable rules for low intelligence reducing your skills too.mostly - for classes like fighters, or barbs, with only 2-4 skillpoints perlevel, low int reeeeeally sucks. But I've seen some pretty ridiculous rogue/ranger builds that were still viable even with the int penalty, because those classes get enough to make up for the int loss. Pcs drop a few favored class bonuses into their mix, and they're fine. Obviously not for knowledge checks or spellcraft- but since they're uber stealth snipers or dualwield-o-maniacs, they didn't care about that anyway, they just really wanted that extra 2 damage or whatever./QUOTE]
I'd consider any skill points granted by class over 2 (the lowest pic class bonus) to be a class feature (almost definitionally). I'd be very careful about changing that as it may unbalance classes, unless you plan to start ripping away class features from other classes for dropping stats.
Based on the race builder (flawed as it is) each flexible skill point per level is worth 4 race points. Greater than darkvision 120 ft., equal to +2 racial bonus to all saves.
Yeah, ultimately I have to consider the fact that if I'm getting this much flak on the boards, my players may not agree with my distaste for the stat dumping/int penalty rules, even if they'll never say so to my face. For the most part they seem to be running parallel in my feelings for our trouble player (the guy with the super-optimized characters) but I'm gonna have to bend the knee here - the problem isn't the int rules, rather the attitude of one (two, sorta) players that don't really seem to care about the same game elements as the others.
Ah well, can't penalize everyone for the actions of a few.
If you want to penalize stat dumping more, you could require an DC10 INT check in some situations where taking 10 is possible (but taking 20 is not). Everyone who didn't dump INT can simply take 10, all others are stuck with failing half the time.
Nah, I'm just ceding the point. I mentioned it because in my case, the stat dumping is just a symptom of a larger problem, that is, a selfish player that chooses to ignore their stats when it's inconvenient, then buries it under some warped logic when other players or me call him on it.
Still, this aint the only player I've had who does stuff like this, nor is it gonna be the last. I don't think the players are entitled to play "whatever they want to" insofar as each game -at least the ones I play, and the rest of the groups I'm with seem to prefer - is designed to be inclusive, a collaborative effort, so if a player wants to just pick whatever, even if it clashes with everyone else, then its an issue for me. Maybe wouldn't be an issue if it was on roll20 or with strangers who would never see each other, or who are playing short one-shot scenarios.
Thanks though. I may just have to start enforcing more stat checks. *your str5 character is dragging 130 lbs of loot? str check.* More rolls to interrupt the flow of the game, but what you gonna do? I'd kick these folks, but when you've got limited numbers of rl players, you just gotta suck it up and make lemonade sometimes.
Anyway, I just started to get into roll20 and the like, so it aint gonna be as much of a problem down the road, I think, when I *will* be able to just choose not to play with those types. Now if only *I* had the INT to make sense of the roll20 mechanics.... O.o
All they want to do is play ignorant, judgement-impaired killers? *sigh*
We prefer the term "murder-hobos" good sir!
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Low, sure. 9 is low. But don't underestimate Mister Plow.
Being good at one or two things just means that you put your 1-2 skill ranks per level in those things, and maybe have Skill Focus.
9 is just barely worse than average. You don't get a reputation for being stupid when you're just a little worse than average. Based on a 3d6 distribution, about 1/3 of the population has an Int of 9 or less - after taking a human racial +2 into account! I desperately hope that 1/3 of people aren't as dumb as Homer Simpson... or dumber.
I guess if you have a dex of 5 you can't operate a door knob.
***end sarcasm***
Int mechanically effects how much you know (or how educated you are really), nothing else except perhaps your ability to process information from the gods. it does not effect your cognitive processes.Well, yes, if you ignore the actual words of the rules text....
what like the rules where it only seems to influence learned memory based actions, such as wizardry and knowledge skills. so, if you want to read into the fluff and make it 100% i'm sure you'd also force barbarians to always be fueled by rage and unthinking during combat.
You apply your character's Intelligence modifier to:
The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game. These are in addition to any starting racial languages and Common. If you have a penalty, you can still read and speak your racial languages unless your Intelligence is lower than 3.
The number of skill points gained each level, though your character always gets at least 1 skill point per level.
Appraise, Craft, Knowledge, Linguistics, and Spellcraft checks.
A wizard gains bonus spells based on his Intelligence score. The minimum Intelligence score needed to cast a wizard spell is 10 + the spell's level.Temporary Bonuses: Temporary increases to your Intelligence score give you a bonus on Intelligence-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence.
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics as appropriate. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
Ability Damage: Damage to your Intelligence score causes you to take penalties on Intelligence-based skill checks. The Ability Damage penalty also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence. See Ability Score Damage below.
I don't see anything relating to cognition.
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All they want to do is play ignorant, judgement-impaired killers? *sigh*We prefer the term "murder-hobos" good sir!
The correct term is "manslaughter nomad", thank you very much.
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Thanks everybody.
When you use a point buy system for creating stats, some amount of number crunching is unavoidable.
Some people will call players who try to maximize their characters munchkins, and many times they're correct.
I'm playing a Paladin in PFS. I am considering dumping INT (and maybe WIS too). Not only will doing this help my other stats (making me a more effective teammate), but it will allow me to play a more outstanding/extreme character (think of a valley girl/dumb blonde type - you'll certainly never forgot that character!). It will also allow me to "miss" some of the things my party members might be doing that a Lawful Good Paladin might not approve of.
Today I played a pregen Paladin. She had a 10 INT and a 13 WIS. In all honesty, I think I prefered the role-playing I was able to do with her today.
But I'm still glad I started this thread which turned into a good discussion. :)
