So I'm thinking up a character idea with the backstory goal of becoming a legendary playwright — sort of the "next Shakespeare" of the campaign setting. Unfortunately, I can't figure out which skills would best represent the art of crafting a well-written play. Would it be Perform (act), or would it be Craft (literature), or perhaps Profession (playwright), or maybe even Linguistics? I'd rather not spend 4 points where 1 would do just fine.
Just take your pick, but consult your GM too. Finally, the storyteller must have stories - skill checks alone shall not suffice.
What do you want to accomplish by writing the play?
I get what your concept is, but when you roll to write a play, what is the goal? Define your objective and the skill necessary should become clearer.
Perform: Oratory.
If you are not performing in the play, but only writing it then I would say profession should work. Just as if you were an artist profession(artist) would be used.
Profession (scribe) could be seen as semi-official, but profession (author)/(playwright) works.
Epic Tales (Su): A 4th-level Pathfinder chronicler can inscribe a tale so evocative and so moving that it conveys the effects of bardic music through the written word. To create an epic tale requires the Pathfinder chronicler to expend a number of rounds of her bardic performance ability equal to twice the duration of the epic tale (maximum duration of 10 rounds), and any relevant Performance skill check is made with Profession (scribe) instead. An epic tale affects only the reader, but it grants all the benefits that would normally apply for hearing a performance. A Pathfinder chronicler may apply the effects of any feats that affect bardic music to her epic tales. An epic tale retains its supernatural potency for 1 day per class level. It requires 1 hour to inscribe, a full-round action to activate, and has a duration equal to 1/2 the number of bardic performance rounds expended during its creation. Once activated, an epic tale's magic is consumed.
I had a character who was a great playwright and he used Craft (Playwright). I would go with that one.
Craft is for making goods, not ideas. You're not making a masterwork quality book or some such. No, you're going to buy a blank book (or something to write in) and write down your play.
So craft makes no sense.
Perform only makes sense for someone who reads the play and intends to act it out.
Writing is not a performance.
Writing would be most likely to fall under Profession(Playwright)
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Profession: Playwright.
Craft is intended to make STUFF like barrels and swords... words are not things, they are concepts. You could use craft to make the paper upon which those words were written, but one does not "Craft" a play (in the Pathfinder sense).
Perform would allow you to present what had been written by a playwright...
Linguistics would allow you to use your Perform skill to present the play in Orcish, rather than the Professional playwrights original work (made in Common).
Profession: Playwright.
Profession always assumes that you know to make money with what you do. So profession: Playwright would assume someone who writes plays from a commercial point of view, not from an artistic one.
Craft: Playwright would be the mere process of cpmposing without any commercial objective.
Simmilar I could see both, profession: Poet for a professional and craft: poetry for the artist.
Craft creates objects like blank books, empty barrels.
Profession applies your talent to fill the book or barrel with something meaningful, like words or wine.
Are you really asking if you can use INT instead of WIS? :)
Stephen Hawking and Einstein wrote books, but those aren't as popular/well known as the Bible...
INT vs WIS. :D
From Craft:
You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning half your check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the craft's daily tasks, how to supervise untrained helpers, and how to handle common problems. (Untrained laborers and assistants earn an average of 1 silver piece per day.)
Untrained playwrights? Um... no. Both skills make money. Craft physically manufactures STUFF, Profession: Playwright would allow you to create a beautiful work of wordplay...
Let me put it another way:
Craft: Shoes, Weapons (examples from the skill)
Profession: Gambler, Librarian, Courtesan (examples from the skill)
Is a playwright more like a Weaponsmith, or a Librarian? Does he use a hammer or a pen? (Quill, whatever).
Craft is wholely inappropriate. Craft from a Pathfinder view is about making a good, not about coming up with ideas. Which is essentially what writing a play is, a series of ideas.
You are skilled in the creation of a specific group of items, such as armor or weapons. Like Knowledge, Perform, and Profession, Craft is actually a number of separate skills. You could have several Craft skills, each with its own ranks. The most common Craft skills are alchemy, armor, baskets, books, bows, calligraphy, carpentry, cloth, clothing, glass, jewelry, leather, locks, paintings, pottery, sculptures, ships, shoes, stonemasonry, traps, and weapons.
A Craft skill is specifically focused on creating something. If nothing is created by the endeavor, it probably falls under the heading of a Profession skill.
The above bolded shows a common theme of creating an item. You are not creating an item when you write a play, you are writing down ideas on paper. You could craft the paper you write the play on, but you do not craft (in the Pathfinder sense) a play.
You are not creating an object, but coming up with an idea.
Craft is for creating material goods.
Profession is for other things.
You are skilled at a specific job. Like Craft, Knowledge, and Perform, Profession is actually a number of separate skills. You could have several Profession skills, each with its own ranks. While a Craft skill represents ability in creating an item, a Profession skill represents an aptitude in a vocation requiring a broader range of less specific knowledge. The most common Profession skills are architect, baker, barrister, brewer, butcher, clerk, cook, courtesan, driver, engineer, farmer, fisherman, gambler, gardener, herbalist, innkeeper, librarian, merchant, midwife, miller, miner, porter, sailor, scribe, shepherd, stable master, soldier, tanner, trapper, and woodcutter.
A scribe is someone who writes down what other people do or say, as a records keeper. A playwright would be the same except you just make up what happens (and try to make it entertaining).
On the other hand, I've heard regarding "art" related skills it's slightly different. I was given the example: Profession(painter) would represent someone who paints houses for a living, craft(painting) would represent an artist.
So writing down words in calligraphy is a craft and writing down words that form a play or poem is not?
Both is, essentially, the same. One in one the words look good and in the other the words sound good.
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I guess it is up to your GM to decide. Is creativity based on INT or WIS?
INT skills:Appraise, Craft, Knowledge, Linguistics, Spellcraft
WIS skills:Heal, Perception, Profession, Sense Motive, Survival
Points to consider:
Linguistics, Spellcraft and Knowledge are all skills based off of having memorized something and being able to recall it.
Linguistics and Appraise are also used to deduce unknowns, such as an unknown language, or the monetary value of gems.
None of the INT skills are social.
Sense Motive, a WIS skill, is social.
To me, a playwright, intending to evoke an emotional response, would use WIS, not INT.
Intelligent authors write works of non-fiction, accurate portrayals of battles and biology.
Wise authors use life experience to connect with their audience through shared experience, evoking an emotional response.
I realize this isn't "Crunch", but I feel strongly that a professional playwright would be Wise, but not necessarily Smart...
My two coppers.
So writing down words in calligraphy is a craft and writing down words that form a play or poem is not?
Both is, essentially, the same. One in one the words look good and in the other the words sound good.
Having nice looking handwriting isn't enough to become a famous author.
Stephen King could have the worst handwriting in the world, but is a millionaire because of his thoughts, typed out and published.
So writing down words in calligraphy is a craft and writing down words that form a play or poem is not?
Both is, essentially, the same. One in one the words look good and in the other the words sound good.
Calligraphy is about writing words in a pretty way, not about writing pretty words. The end results is likely used for official documents of the court.
It is significantly different from writing a play.
Calligraphy as a craft doesn't mean you're coming up with ideas to write, you would be paid to write down someone else's ideas in an artistic way. Or coming up with a sign that you would hope to sell to someone.
The art is how you write it, not what you write.
For a play, the art is what you write.
But both times it is just a piece of paper with words on it.
One time it is nice to look at, the other time there are nice words on it.
And one time it seems to be a crafted object, the other time just an idea written down.
Not different enough for me to warrant saying one is clearly a craft the other clearly not.
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But both times it is just a piece of paper with words on it.
One time it is nice to look at, the other time there are nice words on it.
And one time it seems to be a crafted object, the other time just an idea written down.
Not different enough for me to warrant saying one is clearly a craft the other clearly not.
If you craved a drink with your supper, would you accept a finely crafted barrel in its place? Would you not rather enjoy a professionally made wine instead?
Craft creates THINGS, not ideas. Ink on paper is a physical thing. Can you use Craft to make a functional scroll with a spell on it? Of course not.
Can Craft tell a story? Of course not. Can Craft make the blank pages the story is written on, yes of course.
Does Profession: Playwright teach the person to make paper? No, that is what Craft is for.
Different skills, different roles.
Now, for making artistic sculptures, there is some confusion between these two skills... :D
As it is all non-combat, a permissive GM would probably just say to use whichever stat you wanted, it isn't really going to affect anything. Charismatic storytelling, Wise storytelling, Intelligent storytelling... none of these grant more hitpoints or help you do damage.
Does Profession: Playwright teach the person to make paper? No, that is what Craft is for.
Nor does craft: Calligraphy teach how to make paper. Your point?
Nor does craft: Calligraphy teach how to make paper. Your point?
Does Profession: Playwright teach the person to make paper? No, that is what Craft is for.
My point is that it is ultimately up to the GM.
The examples of Craft show physical trade goods being manufactured by guys with hammers and similar tools.
The examples of Profession show people using their minds and skills to provide services... I mean, how would Fabricate help you write a play? Minor Creation? (examples of Craft tools, not Profession tools).
Profession seems to fit better, in my opinion. If the GM allows the player to use their INT score to produce a play, by Crafting it in a fashion similar to a barrel or boat, so be it.
I'm sort of leaning towards Perform now to be honest, as CHA is what you use to provoke an emotional response. I suppose the TYPE of play might affect which stat to use. That's the beauty of this type of game, it makes you think. :D
I've played systems where you have a skill, but which stat you use varies depending on what you want to do, this is a good example of that.
Ranks in Playwright determines skill, CHA/WIS/INT could determine bonus depending on style of play being written... This would have to be a houserule, naturally.
Of course, Pathfinder classifies the skills as being attached to one stat. Playwrights don't produce shoes, barrels, boats or other sundry goods. They produce ideas. A more nebulous things captured by the feel of the Profession skill, and thus... Wisdom based.
I don't disagree that an Intelligent man (or woman) in the game could produce a play, but it would be because he invested the extra skill points gained by high INT into Profession: Playwright. :D
If anything, craft caligraphy is arguably the one skill listed under craft that shouldn't be there.
It would make much more sense to be under profession(calligrapher)
I think it is more a performance than anything else. Unlike other performances, the performer and audience are separated in space and time, but at the end of the day writing is pretty much the same as telling a story, only the medium is different.
Craft is for creating physical things, Profession is doing work for hire, Perform is producing art.
Obviously in the real world these things blur a whole lot, but if you have to pick where something goes in one of those three, that is how I would do it.
Just take your pick, but consult your GM too. Finally, the storyteller must have stories - skill checks alone shall not suffice.
This is 100% true. As it is for all checks. If you can't climb a tree, either can your character. And if you can't bust through a stone door, you might as well not even ask if your character can try.
That is why I stick to rogues. I can lie, cheat, steal, and bluff my way through anything.
I would agree to calling Playwright a perform skill, before calling it a craft.
If you are modelling the character after Shakespeare, he was one sarcastic, sexually explicit (for the time) dude. He could evoke laughter and tears... CHA would be the stat of choice, implying Perform...
I'm changing my answer from Profession to Perform. Assuming emotionally charged plays are the thing. :P
Profession, although one of the true greats would also have perform and perhaps several other secondary skills.
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But definitely not Craft.
Craft: How well written the story is. Item created = actual story/play.
Perform: How well you act out the story. Act/Oratory = telling story/play.
Profession: How good you are at 'selling' your story. Getting people to pay for your story/play.
I see no reason why craft doesn't apply to songs and stories. There is a difference between a well written song (craft) vs how well you sing it (perform) vs making a living at making songs/stories.
Craft is more aligned toward the construction of physical objects.
For example, cost of materials in craft doesn't make sense. You can write a bad play or a great one on the same paper, right?
No, it's definitely profession, IMO.
Craft is for things that are tangible.
While the paper a play is written on is tangible, the words themselves are not.
Things that are crafted cannot be copied by people without the craft skill. Anyone that can read and write can copy the play. They cannot copy the sword.
Yeah, it's really the rules of Craft that don't apply. The short paragraph for "Practice a Trade" can work, but that equally applies to Profession and Perform and is basically the same rules. The longer portion of Craft, involving materials equal to 1/3 the cost of the base item is what doesn't apply.
Profession for writing the play.
Perform for acting/directing the play.
Unlike some other professions, it might be that you don't get paid as regularly, so that you make several weekly checks to write a play, but get paid at the end when it's finally done (negotiated between you and the DM).
Well to point out how WOTC felt about this, you just have to look at modern SRD.
"Craft (writing) (Int)
This skill allows a character to create short stories, novels, scripts and screenplays, newspaper articles and columns, and similar works of writing.
When creating a work of writing, the player simply makes a Craft (writing) check, the result of which determines the quality of the work.
No Wealth check is necessary to use this Craft skill.
Skill Check Result Effort Achieved
9 or lower Untalented amateur
10–19 Talented amateur
20–24 Professional
25–30 Expert
31 or higher Master
Creating a work of writing requires at least 1 hour, but usually takes a day, a week, or more, depending on the scope of the project.
Special: A character with the Creative feat gets a +2 bonus on all Craft (writing) checks."
In Races of Stone, on page 131, it says that writing and musical composition are Craft skills and then lists a chart.
"Comp Type Value Craft DC
Poem 5 sp - 2 gp 12
Novel 5 gp - 15 gp 15
Reference Book 25 gp - 100 gp 18
Epic 50 gp - 500 gp 20
Song 5 sp - 5 gp 12
Quartet Comp 5 gp - 15 gp 15
Symphony 25 gp - 100 gp 20
Dramatic Monologue 1 gp - 5 gp 15
Comedic Play 10 gp - 30 gp 15
Dramatic Play 15 gp - 50 gp 15"
SO two examples of WOTC calling it a craft and 1 is from 3.5 d&d. I haven't see any changes/alterations to come to the conclusion that the requirements for what is craft, profession or performance are different between the games (3.5 to pathfinder).
EDIT: here is the full listing for craft in Races of stone:
CRAFT (INT)
Use of the Craft skill is intended to represent trades and
arts ranging from alchemy to gemcutting, painting to weaponsmithing.
Anything you make or use has its basis in the
Craft skill. In addition to concrete goods, Craft covers artistic
endeavors such as writing and musical composition.
Check: The basic function of the Craft skill is to allow you
to create items of the type appropriate to that skill. The DC
for this check depends on the complexity of the item created.
As with the standard use of the Craft skill, the DC, your
check results, and the value of the composition determine
how long it takes to compose a musical or written work. The
table below summarizes DCs and values for common types
of compositions. All the values are expressed as ranges. You
can choose your target value for your composition.
Raw Materials: The only raw materials required for a written
composition are pen, ink, and parchment. In the course
of one week’s work, you spend about 2 gp on materials. Use
this cost rather than the cost of the normal materials (a total
of one-third of the item’s price). If you are making checks by
the day, you spend about 3 sp per day.
Action: Does not apply. Craft checks are made by the day
or week (see above).
Try Again: Yes, but each time you fail a check by 5 or
more, you must start over from the beginning of the creation
process.
Special: You can voluntarily add 10 to your Craft DC to
create an item more quickly, as with the normal skill use.
I don't really care what WotC called it, or what rules exist in other games.
If you look at what the skills in the core rules are best suited to, there's not really any ambiguity here.
I don't really care what WotC called it, or what rules exist in other games.
If you look at what the skills in the core rules are best suited to, there's not really any ambiguity here.
See, I disagree based JUST on the core rules too. "A Craft skill is specifically focused on creating something. If nothing is created by the endeavor, it probably falls under the heading of a Profession skill."
It doesn't say 'creating something tangible or physical'. It just says "creating something" and the idea IS to create a story/play.
Profession: "You are skilled at a specific job." You work and get paid without actually creating something. How does this work with playwright? Who's paying every week? You go someplace to do a weeks worth of playwriting? Selling a story/play as a whole makes more sense than a weekly job.
Perform: "You are skilled at one form of entertainment, from singing to acting to playing an instrument": Since you aren't actually in front of an audience, I can't see perform working. The people reading/acting would be the performers.
That isn't to say there aren't some weird ones listed in what I'd think was a wrong category. For instance, I'd think a baker, brewer and scribe create things so can fall under Craft even though it's under profession.
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You could write a play, without actually writing it.
I'll explain:
Unlike, say, Calligraphy, you do not need to be the one writing.
You could dictate, whilst another writes. The end result would be the same.
Paper, could even be replaced. Carving in stone, or writing in the sand.
Even if you had the paper copy destroyed, you could have a good enough memory to write it down again.
Why is this relevant?
Well, with the Craft rules, you take raw materials, and create something finished.
Are the raw materials in this case, simply a thought?
When you use the Perform rules, you, well, make a performance.
Unless you are performing in the play, then there is no performance being done by the playwright.
So, profession, is the skill that best covers this.
So, profession, is the skill that best covers this.
My question would be who is paying you for your weeks work if it's a profession? How are you getting paid? That's as relevant as what raw materials you'd use to create a play. And even if someone is paying, what are they paying for? The play or the creators work? IMO it's be the play itself, the finished product.
*shrug* I seem to be in the minority here though.
So, profession, is the skill that best covers this.My question would be who is paying you for your weeks work if it's a profession? How are you getting paid? That's as relevant as what raw materials you'd use to create a play. And even if someone is paying, what are they paying for? The play or the creators work? IMO it's be the play itself, the finished product.
*shrug* I seem to be in the minority here though.
Back in the day day, you actually would get a patron to pay you to sit around and write all day, and they were paying for you, not the material you produced (congratulations, you're a Trophy Writer). So that model actually works fine here.
Just food for thought.
Yes, I'd thought about the patron angle but a profession skill can make a check weekly one week and get paid and then nothing (no work or cash) the next. That doesn't really fit the paradigm of a patron and artist. It's not 'day labor' thing that professions are.
Yes, I'd thought about the patron angle but a profession skill can make a check weekly one week and get paid and then nothing (no work or cash) the next. That doesn't really fit the paradigm of a patron and artist. It's not 'day labor' thing that professions are.
So, profession, is the skill that best covers this.My question would be who is paying you for your weeks work if it's a profession? How are you getting paid? That's as relevant as what raw materials you'd use to create a play. And even if someone is paying, what are they paying for? The play or the creators work? IMO it's be the play itself, the finished product.
*shrug* I seem to be in the minority here though.
Back in the day day, you actually would get a patron to pay you to sit around and write all day, and they were paying for you, not the material you produced (congratulations, you're a Trophy Writer). So that model actually works fine here.
Just food for thought.
It's an abstract of reality, it isn't perfect. Maybe your character doesn't actually get paid weekly, maybe he gets paid after completing the project, and the pay works out to be equal to the weekly pay X the number of weeks it took...
The patron idea is pretty normal, IMO. I mean, even Craft lists weekly pay, even though you make STUFF like barrels etc... it's abstract.
I don't really care what WotC called it, or what rules exist in other games.
If you look at what the skills in the core rules are best suited to, there's not really any ambiguity here.
See, I disagree based JUST on the core rules too. "A Craft skill is specifically focused on creating something. If nothing is created by the endeavor, it probably falls under the heading of a Profession skill."
It doesn't say 'creating something tangible or physical'. It just says "creating something" and the idea IS to create a story/play.
Profession: "You are skilled at a specific job." You work and get paid without actually creating something. How does this work with playwright? Who's paying every week? You go someplace to do a weeks worth of playwriting? Selling a story/play as a whole makes more sense than a weekly job.
Perform: "You are skilled at one form of entertainment, from singing to acting to playing an instrument": Since you aren't actually in front of an audience, I can't see perform working. The people reading/acting would be the performers.
That isn't to say there aren't some weird ones listed in what I'd think was a wrong category. For instance, I'd think a baker, brewer and scribe create things so can fall under Craft even though it's under profession.
Craft seems to be focused on material goods, if you look at the skill description. It is also fairly focused. Things that craft makes:
alchemy, armor, baskets, books, bows, calligraphy, carpentry, cloth, clothing, glass, jewelry, leather, locks, paintings, pottery, sculptures, ships, shoes, stonemasonry, traps, and weapons
These are physical goods, sundries. You pack them in boxes or sell them as products. They can't be copied by unskilled people. There are no examples in the skill of things that an unskilled person could duplicate at the same level of quality as the original.
Profession describes a skillset (sometimes unskilled), but often producing something that can be reproduced by unskilled labor (often, not always)-example: scribe (copies books), architect (can copy their floor plans). Assuming that playwright falls into this category, you can see that a play can be copied by an unskilled person (they need merely copy out words, not make up the play or carve a nice looking statue).
architect, baker, barrister, brewer, butcher, clerk, cook, courtesan, driver, engineer, farmer, fisherman, gambler, gardener, herbalist, innkeeper, librarian, merchant, midwife, miller, miner, porter, sailor, scribe, shepherd, stable master, soldier, tanner, trapper, and woodcutter.
I really don't understand how people can think Craft covers the creative and skilled act of producing a play.
As I mentioned earlier though, an argument could be made to use Perform to write an emotional play... but that is houserule territory.
Here is how we run it in our game at home:
All the CRAFT skills are focused on the actual MAKING of the product.
So for example, Craft:Weaponsmithing is about the actual making of weapons and the knowledge of metals and materials, the skill of hammering and shaping, etc.
All the PROFESSION skills are focused on the BUSINESS of the product.
SO Profession:Weaponsmith is about running your smithy, balancing your books, keeping your materials inventory, advertising, etc.
So when writing a play or novel or poetry your are actually MAKING it, crafting it. So Craft:Literature.
If you wanted to setup an actual fully functional business where you sell your plays, have them printed for distribution and arranged to have them performed (or have a playhouse made to have them performed in), etc it would be something like Profession:Writer.
Our group always runs that to be a complete vendor you need both a craft and a profession to make the business work. Otherwise your either skilled labor (crafter) or management (profession).
If you wanted the triple threat you could take Perform:Acting and be IN your and/or others plays as well. Perform:Acting could also cover directing as well, though it would probably be the Profession skill that would cover the producers role.
It is basic but it works. Hope this helps you out.
Hmmm after reading this thread I've changed my initial stance.
Craft: Writing to actually turn your ideas into legibly written books and scripts.
Profession: Playwright to convince other people to buy your books and scripts, and to convince people to act in your plays. Also to aid other blossoming writers in their pursuits.
Perform: Oratory to actually act out the scenes of a play, to convey the words and emotions of the characters to both the audience during a show and the actors during rehearsals.