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I'm running a game where there is a large Neutral Evil Nagaji/Serpentfolk city located deep underground. This city has been cut off from the rest of the world for centuries, but I wanted them to have a pretty strong economy, despite that. This city has limited ties to the Plane of Shadow... and maybe very limited ties to the Darklands. I wanted them to be bankers, barristers, and miners, mostly, but again, no proper connections to the rest of the world (just a few limited locations around the mountain). Any suggestions for how I could make this work, semi-realistically?
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Mining is the backbone of their economy, and the slave class (degenerate serpentfolk) are the spinal fluid for that backbone. Nagaji are the legalistic ones, as I have it planned, and operate the guilds (unions) for most merchants. Essentially the Serpentfolk, as I pictured it, are the entrenched power structure (falling apart for ages), and the Nagaji are the relatively new (and thoroughly resented) consortium making most trade happen. Of course this is all subject to change.
Qualities I have in place right now: financial, government capitol, magically attuned, organized crime, strong underground. Disadvantage: Bad Neighbors.
If the city is essentially a closed system, its economy is wholly isolated from the outside world and any value of goods and services may be drastically different in scale. The strength of an economy is relative to its trading partners, and if you have none then... uh?
It could be that they have some abundance of materials that would make them extremely wealthy upon contact with the rest of the world.
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Well, one plot comes to mind right off the bat. The most lucrative, but highly risky mining operation actually occurs on the shadow plane, where they literally mine bits of the plane itself creating a new weapon type.
(initially I'm thinking it's a shadowy metal that ignore Armor Bonus to AC much like a ghost, but is still semi-physical and able to be manipulated by normal smiths.)
Have Serpentfolk/Fetchlings for this task. Much how a Tiefling in lore can be half demon or devil, and half anything else, not just human. You could take the elemental races in the same way. Regular fetchlings but reskinned as shadowy serpentfolk.
Another idea that comes to mind is trade with other dark folk such as Svirfneblin or Drow for the shadow blade metal.
I hope this helps
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Mining is the backbone of their economy, and the slave class (degenerate serpentfolk) are the spinal fluid for that backbone. Nagaji are the legalistic ones, as I have it planned, and operate the guilds (unions) for most merchants. Essentially the Serpentfolk, as I pictured it, are the entrenched power structure (falling apart for ages), and the Nagaji are the relatively new (and thoroughly resented) consortium making most trade happen. Of course this is all subject to change. Food is, for the slaves, cultivated from the albino dire cave rats they raise in mold caves. And I was debating whether or not the wealthier class uses magic and genies to make more elaborate food happen. Create food and water is a great spell for isolated communities of arcanist sorts.
A lot of good ideas given here. I think making the economy principally closed makes for a lot of ingame issues. I'd open up several trade partners for game balance. Also introduce story hooks that opening up other lines of trade can be very lucrative (with existing trade sources threatening those who would seek to do just that to maintain the status quo).
I'd also suggest that those principally in control of the resources are incredibly wealthy. Those who do not are more or less slaves. It would be a very caste centric system most likely.
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The small-hold Framers/Ranchers which surround the city are extremely (and violently) clannish, the city is a sort of neutral ground where their feuds are conducted through the courts instead of through the battlefield. The city would be at the mercy of the farmers/ranchers if they would band together, so it goes to great lengths to prevent this from happening. The major functions of the city WRT to farmers/ranchers (R/F) is to find a way to legally secure title to a farming cave one holder stole from another 200 years ago, and provide legal excuses to attack other holders to steal ranching caves from them. The city also participates in a balancing act WRT arming the R/F, providing enough arms at a cheap enough a price to keep the R/F from making their own arms, while preventing any of the R/F acquiring enough of an armory to become a large-holder.
I absolutely love the idea of them tying each other up in court. A cold war occasionally flaring up with "death by natural causes" assassinations.
So...the slaves are built into a strict contract system run by the Nagaji guildmasters, the serpentfolk are notoriously abusing the system, the farmers... I hadn't really considered the albino dire cave rat farmers... that may be ... the small population of fetchlings I pictured as being intermediaries for... possibly duergar that don't ask too many questions.
Lot of smuggling opportunities in farming situations, also... yeaaahhh okay, yeah, good one.
all any evil isolated society needs to be self sufficient is other people to abuse/take advantage of. so in your case, you could have a two tiered system. a family/clan/rival tier of society that are constantly fueding/warring/trading with each other. and then the slave class. the rise and fall of the various houses in a power struggle, based off the back of the slave class is enough to sustain a civilizations economy.
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If the city is essentially a closed system, its economy is wholly isolated from the outside world and any value of goods and services may be drastically different in scale. The strength of an economy is relative to its trading partners, and if you have none then... uh?
It could be that they have some abundance of materials that would make them extremely wealthy upon contact with the rest of the world.
That was what I was thinking... they could be like "The Twenty-One Balloons" book, where a small group of people live on an island with such an abundance of diamonds they would crash the world economy if they introduced them all. So they trickle the diamonds out, and live richly in a paradise full of diamonds. This is similar, except they are evil. Evil snake people. With evil snake person slaves.
I don't think I mentioned it before, but this is a city hidden in the largest mountain range of an island campaign.
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Well, one plot comes to mind right off the bat. The most lucrative, but highly risky mining operation actually occurs on the shadow plane, where they literally mine bits of the plane itself creating a new weapon type.
(initially I'm thinking it's a shadowy metal that ignore Armor Bonus to AC much like a ghost, but is still semi-physical and able to be manipulated by normal smiths.)
Have Serpentfolk/Fetchlings for this task. Much how a Tiefling in lore can be half demon or devil, and half anything else, not just human. You could take the elemental races in the same way. Regular fetchlings but reskinned as shadowy serpentfolk.
Another idea that comes to mind is trade with other dark folk such as Svirfneblin or Drow for the shadow blade metal.
I hope this helps
I was going to go with Svirfneblin but they hate reptilians, and Drow might be good for slave trade, but would likely invade the city if it was common knowledge to them. Totally thinking that Fetchlings, shae, and duergar (as the primary export) will be involved, and possibly a few choice genies. The reskinning idea for fetchlings is PERFECT, since in this city the Shae in the city are a leisure slave class, and shae give birth to fetchlings. The mining for shadow metal is something else I had considered, but the more I think about it the better it sounds (inherent ghost touch property!)
That helped a lot, actually. Thanks.
In an isolated community, anything that is consumed must be produced locally and vice versa. This means that for any economical branch, there is a strict upper limit, this goes in particular for things like mining, of which only so much is required to satisfy local needs. Once the soldiers and craftspeople are equipped all you need is enough for repairs and maintenance.
Since there is no profit to be made from producing surplus goods, production will stop once needs are satisfied. This in particular will make it difficult to develop highly specialised production, since specialists need to focus and spend a lot of time on one thing and that is an inherently wasteful approach under the circumstances given.
Yes, in a closed system like that, mining isn't really worth much, because unless somebody just has a fetish for sleeping on the world's biggest pile of gold and gems, there's no reason to go after those things. Closed, limited population, it won't take long for everybody who can get "rare" gems and metals to have more than they know what to do with.
Kutulu there hit on the other big point already. Durable goods will be in low demand, because once everyone has what they need, there is no market for more until one breaks. It becomes a "once in a while somebody makes a new hoe" kind of thing.
I think the true "wealth" in such a society would be food. Its something that there is always a demand for, its difficult to stockpile long term, and it comes in varying degrees of refinement.
Low class foods such as cave fungus would be bland and unpleasant, but fairly easily obtained, and have a low value. Actual tended cropswould be moderately valuable, while luxuries like meat would be extremely expensive.
Basically, the exact opposite of the outside world. In the outside, anybody can pretty much wander out and find food if they know how to get it (Survival checks), but things like metal ores are rare and hard to get to. Inside a mountain, you literally couldn't walk in rough areas without tripping over some kind of stone or ore, but finding something edible would be rare and precious.
Be very interesting for PCs who find the place to walk in and discover that while nobody gives a damn about their gold coins, their trail rations are in high demand. Oh, and keep an eye on your familiars/animal companions. They're made of meat, after all...
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The first question I would ask myself is: am I putting too much work into details that ultimately won't matter to my players/PCs?
I've learned over the years that my players don't care about a realistic gaming economy. As a result, i spend my (limited) GM prep time on things they do care about.
-Skeld
No economy. Just make them xenophobic communistic collectivists. They all own everything. No one is allowed to have more than they can carry. If you are carrying something, it is yours while you carry it. If you put it down, its up for grabs. You could even make it some kind of reverse totalitarian thing. Their version of Inquisitors or Investigators track down people who are hoarding goods and put them to death.
These are reptiles. They are going to be fiercely territorial about things that are in their possession, and not give a damn about anything else.
Their version of thievery would only concern items taken directly off of another person, and would be a death sentence. The idea of property rights would be completely alien to them.
Possibly they are the bankers for a bunch of creatures that arrive via teleportation or plane shifting?
Players rarely ask to look at an economic analysis of a region/city. They might ask obvious questions, such as "where do they get food from?", so have answers for that, as well as any other natural resources they appear to be using.
To give the sense of isolation, you want to consider some aspects of the city that are backwards, or have evolved strangely. Think about a real world isolated location: Cuba. They spent decades without the ability to import cars, so they fixed up their old cars repeatedly, making spare parts out of whatever they could manage.
Pick a couple of basic resources that they lack and imagine how the city would be different for not having them (like wood for instance, which is an incredibly efficient crafting material). Also, consider some technological innovations, or even magical innovations of the outside world and how these guys don't have them. For every 4 things they lack, create a strange thing they made themselves, it could solve a problem in a different way, or be unrelated.
You could also merge the two basic themes in this thread.
In the open, the system appears to be closed, limited contact, etc. where things like food and services are the true currency.
However, an there is also an underground extra-planar trade market with Shadow, Leng, etc. that could also fuel the specialized needs of the economy.
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It's not a pleasant place, so far...
NE Large city
Corruption +7; Crime +8; Economy +5; Law -5; Lore +0; Society -4
Qualities: financial, massive underground, organized crime, prosperous, racially intolerant (elves)
Danger +50; Disadvantages bad neighbors, secluded
DEMOGRAPHICS
Government Secret Syndicate
Population 10,000 (6,000 nagaji; 1,500 degenerate serpentfolk; 1,000 serpentfolk; 750 fetchlings; 750 other)
MARKETPLACE
Base Value 8,000 gp; Purchase Limit 75,000 gp; Spellcasting 7th
Minor Items 4d4; Medium Items 3d4; Major Items 2d4
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As for interdimensional traders, aside from shadow plane denizens, I have settled on the Cheitan Janni. Their propensity for taking offense even when it is not intended, and keeping the location of the city/island secret from most other genies (while profiting off an exclusive deal with the secret syndicate running the place) will dovetail nicely with the attitude of the city's masters. Like I said before, the city has access to materials nowhere else in the world, and though the serpentfolk (who dominated the region for centuries) resent the nagaji's efforts at the opening of trade, they too are profiting from it.
Any time you have alien merchants the opportunity is there for an entertaining trade war between all the options - mercanes, witchwyrds, denizens of Leng, the old Devourers from Lankhmar, etc. If there's a really desirable resource that can only be obtained there, there's a good motivation for it, too.
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If this shadow metal fades over time becoming normal steel of a dark hue then it would need constant input of new metal to replace that which has faded …
Also this addresses the problem of never giving an enemy something you are not comfortable the party having. As players are cunning and will do anything to get their hands on something powerful.
They can get this new metal but as it has a finite time it’s useful then in a few levels of use it becomes just another normal sword.
This way they need a constant supply as demand is always there.
Regards
Sic
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If this shadow metal fades over time becoming normal steel of a dark hue then it would need constant input of new metal to replace that which has faded …
Also this addresses the problem of never giving an enemy something you are not comfortable the party having. As players are cunning and will do anything to get their hands on something powerful.
They can get this new metal but as it has a finite time it’s useful then in a few levels of use it becomes just another normal sword.
This way they need a constant supply as demand is always there.
Regards
Sic
The fading effect is an eloquent way to keep the party from going overboard, but I might also make it a roundabout way to lessen the price of say, shadow armor, by incorporating this particular metal (or raise it, if it raises the bonus to stealth). Another thought I have for this commodity: higher bonuses to armor might make its enhancement to stealth (naturally) last longer, so a higher level character with more powerful armor would discover his increased stealth bonus lasts longer the higher over masterwork or +1 it is enhanced.
Other commodities may include: Gems capable of binding Kytons, stone capable of blocking shadows (but not ghosts or other incorporeal creatures), and of course, slaves.
The more I think about albino dire rats as a foods source (who are fed by cavern mold and lichen), the more I want to make a scenario centered on an underground rat ranch.