Is the Grapple Combat Maneuver considered as a Melee Attack ?
If yes, then a grappler should be able to benefit from flanking bonus (when rolling the Grapple check) as long as there is a threatening enemy of the grappler target on the target opposite border or opposite corner.
I understand that an attack roll is needed to perform the Grapple Combat Maneuver however I could not find any clear rules reference stating that the Grapple Combat Maneuver was actually a Melee Attack.
Please help me to discover the truth !
|
3 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Combat Maneuvers are attack rolls.
When attacking, you're either in melee, or at range.
Some grapple checks can be made at range. They would not be considered melee attack rolls.
The rest would be.
Nefreet wrote: Combat Maneuvers are attack rolls.
When attacking, you're either in melee, or at range.
Some grapple checks can be made at range. They would not be considered melee attack rolls.
The rest would be.
Thanks for your answer. I should have clarified that I was already considering a Grapple Combat Maneuver done to a target in melee. The point I would like to clarify is whether this Maneuver is considered as a "melee attack" as per the specific game terms used in the CRB. For instance, on page 183 there is an indication that some Combat Maneuvers could substitute melee attacks while others were a separate action.
CRB p183 wrote: Some combat maneuvers substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full-attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity. Others are used as a separate action. Some Combat Maneuvers (such as Trip or Disarm) could be made "in place of a melee attack" (which, by the way, does not necessary mean that they become "melee attacks"). However, the Grapple Combat Maneuver description in the CRB indicates that it was performed as a standard action instead. There is no obvious evidence I could find indicating that the Grapple Combat Maneuver could be considered as a "melee attack" (even if the Grapple is done while both opponents are in melee). From what I am able to read so far, a Grapple Combat Maneuver is ... a Combat Maneuver which belongs to the "Special Attacks" section of the CRB Combat chapter.
As per CRB wording, flanking benefits seem to only apply to "melee attack" and I was not able to find any wording that would confirm that this would also apply to a Grapple Combat Maneuver (baring special abilities, feats, ...).
CRB p197 wrote: When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner. Did I miss anything ?
You didn't really miss anything, but you're trying to lump many rules under the same categories, and it doesn't quite work the way that you're coming up with.
(understandable, combat maneuvers can get quite complex, especially Grapple)
If you're not grappling at range, then you're grappling in melee.
You would benefit from Flanking, Bless, higher ground, and all the usual modifiers to making a melee attack.
But the only 3 combat maneuvers that can be used "in place of a melee attack", such as during an Attack of Opportunity, or during a Full Attack, are Trip, Disarm, and Sunder.
Grappling requires a standard action.
(some class features and feats obviously can modify everything I've stated, but generally that's how the rules work)
Likewise, if the defender has some ability to damage a creature striking it in melee, a Grapple would qualify.
Wasn't there a recent developer discussion on whether or not Amulet of Mighty Fists's +1 to melee attacks with Natural Weapons wouldn't add to Grapples?
Does that factor into this discussion Nefreet?
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
The amulet would not add its enhancement bonus to the grapple because you are not using your unarmed attacks as a weapon. This does not change the fact that to grapple, you must make a melee attack.
I long thought of Unarmed Strike as the one and only weapon you use to grapple someone. But I get the concept that there isn't actually a "weapon" used to grapple.
Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
The lone exception that I know of is the Mancatcher. It is a weapon used to grapple.
Garrote, Harpoon, Barbed Arrow/Bolt, and apparently Grappling hooks used as a weapon.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
The irony being that using a 'grapple' weapon means your hands are not free, so you suffer a -4 on the check...
BadBird wrote: The irony being that using a 'grapple' weapon means your hands are not free, so you suffer a -4 on the check... Man catcher explicitly negates the -4 for no free hand. The others, I dunno.
Howie23 wrote: BadBird wrote: The irony being that using a 'grapple' weapon means your hands are not free, so you suffer a -4 on the check... Man catcher explicitly negates the -4 for no free hand. The others, I dunno. Garrote also explicitly calls out that it negates the -4. But yes, by RAW, all other grapple weapons and the Dan Bong cause the -4 to grapple, unless your DM rules otherwise.
The other 'grapple' weapons only have the grappling quality, meaning that the target is grappled on a crit. They otherwise aren't actually used for grappling.
Thanks all for your answers. Coming back to my original question and assuming that a Grapple Combat Maneuver performed in melee is indeed a "melee attack", can you please confirm or amend following statements related to opponents in melee situation :
(1) attempting to initiate a Grapple is a melee attack
(2) attempting to maintain a Grapple is a melee attack
(3) attempting to break a Grapple is a melee attack
(4) if a grappled creature fails to break a grapple, then if the grappler has both Crane Riposte and Snapping Turtle style feats active and has a free hand, then he would be able to attempt another Grapple check to maintain the Grapple as an immediate action and perform an attack of opportunity against the grappled creature
LoneKnave wrote: The other 'grapple' weapons only have the grappling quality, meaning that the target is grappled on a crit. They otherwise aren't actually used for grappling. The Dan Bong is specifically called out as used in grapples.
Truth Seeker wrote: Thanks all for your answers. Coming back to my original question and assuming that a Grapple Combat Maneuver performed in melee is indeed a "melee attack", can you please confirm or amend following statements related to opponents in melee situation :
(1) attempting to initiate a Grapple is a melee attack
(2) attempting to maintain a Grapple is a melee attack
(3) attempting to break a Grapple is a melee attack
(4) if a grappled creature fails to break a grapple, then if the grappler has both Crane Riposte and Snapping Turtle style feats active and has a free hand, then he would be able to attempt another Grapple check to maintain the Grapple as an immediate action and perform an attack of opportunity against the grappled creature
1) Yes.
2) Yes.
3) Yes, as RAW. This may not be RAI.
4) No. Combat Maneuvers cannot miss, they instead fail.
Thanks a lot for your clarifications !
Performing a Combat Maneuver wrote: When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll. Attack Roll wrote: If your result equals or beats the target's Armor Class, you hit and deal damage. ... A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss. It appears to me that Combat Maneuver rolls can indeed hit and miss, not just "fail".
|
1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
|
Byakko wrote: Performing a Combat Maneuver wrote: When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll. Attack Roll wrote: If your result equals or beats the target's Armor Class, you hit and deal damage. ... A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss. It appears to me that Combat Maneuver rolls can indeed hit and miss, not just "fail". You are quoting two rules which contradict one another, meaning that one supercedes the other. Because CMB vs CMD specifically calls out both 'DC' and 'Success', it reads exactly like a skill check. Skill checks succeed or fail, not hit or miss.
If both of your presented quotes are meant to hold as true at all times, then it would be impossible to 'hit' with a combat maneuver, because you never check the CMB vs AC, as is stipulated in the 'Attack Roll' quote you provided.
The rules for combat maneuvers modify the rules for attack rolls. Where details are not changed, I believe one should default to the attack roll rules referenced (which includes hits and miss terminology).
However, I understand your argument and find it equally compelling... imho, this should be clarified. FAQing.
James Risner wrote: I long thought of Unarmed Strike as the one and only weapon you use to grapple someone. But I get the concept that there isn't actually a "weapon" used to grapple. There was an Official Rules Post specifically excluding the Grapple Combat Maneuver from the Amulet of Mighty Fists. The ruling overlooked certain other things, such as when a Grappler has a Natural Attack with the Grab ability.
You see, the AoMF will enhance combat maneuvers made with the natural attack or unarmed strike used to make it, unless that weapon is considered "incidental" to the maneuver. But I don't think it could be said that an Alchemal Tentacle or a Witch's White Hair would be incidental to the grapple, even if the initial grapple attempt was not part of a melee attack followed by Grab.
Aydin D'Ampfer wrote: Truth Seeker wrote: Thanks all for your answers. Coming back to my original question and assuming that a Grapple Combat Maneuver performed in melee is indeed a "melee attack", can you please confirm or amend following statements related to opponents in melee situation :
(1) attempting to initiate a Grapple is a melee attack
(2) attempting to maintain a Grapple is a melee attack
(3) attempting to break a Grapple is a melee attack
(4) if a grappled creature fails to break a grapple, then if the grappler has both Crane Riposte and Snapping Turtle style feats active and has a free hand, then he would be able to attempt another Grapple check to maintain the Grapple as an immediate action and perform an attack of opportunity against the grappled creature
1) Yes.
2) Yes.
3) Yes, as RAW. This may not be RAI.
4) No. Combat Maneuvers cannot miss, they instead fail. You can't make attacks of opportunity while you are in a Grapple. And you can't make a Grapple attempt as part of an attack of opportunity because the Grapple Combat Maneuver is a Standard Action, not an Attack Action. If you have Greater Grapple, you can make a Maintain a Grapple Combat Maneuver as a Move Action. If you have Rapid Grappler, you can make a Maintain a Grapple Combat Maneuver as a Swift Action, but none of those are Attack Actions, cannot be made as part of a Full Attack, nor as an Attack of Opportunity.
Unless they can.
There is a Feat Called Hamatula Strike which lets you Grapple as part of a melee attack with a piercing weapon. There are ways of getting the Grab ability which also lets you Initiate, not prosecute, a Grapple as part of the attack with that Natural Weapon. And White Haired Witches can Grapple with their Hair in conjunction with a melee attack with the hair. Interestingly, they don't have the Grab ability, so if they might get it somehow and then start enjoying that +4.
Aydin D'Ampfer wrote: (3) attempting to break a Grapple is a melee attack Not always. You can attempt to break a Grapple with an Escape Artist Check.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Aydin D'Ampfer wrote: Truth Seeker wrote: Thanks all for your answers. Coming back to my original question and assuming that a Grapple Combat Maneuver performed in melee is indeed a "melee attack", can you please confirm or amend following statements related to opponents in melee situation :
(1) attempting to initiate a Grapple is a melee attack
(2) attempting to maintain a Grapple is a melee attack
(3) attempting to break a Grapple is a melee attack
(4) if a grappled creature fails to break a grapple, then if the grappler has both Crane Riposte and Snapping Turtle style feats active and has a free hand, then he would be able to attempt another Grapple check to maintain the Grapple as an immediate action and perform an attack of opportunity against the grappled creature
1) Yes.
2) Yes.
3) Yes, as RAW. This may not be RAI.
4) No. Combat Maneuvers cannot miss, they instead fail. You can't make attacks of opportunity while you are in a Grapple. And you can't make a Grapple attempt as part of an attack of opportunity because the Grapple Combat Maneuver is a Standard Action, not an Attack Action. If you have Greater Grapple, you can make a Maintain a Grapple Combat Maneuver as a Move Action. If you have Rapid Grappler, you can make a Maintain a Grapple Combat Maneuver as a Swift Action, but none of those are Attack Actions, cannot be made as part of a Full Attack, nor as an Attack of Opportunity.
Unless they can.
There is a Feat Called Hamatula Strike which lets you Grapple as part of a melee attack with a piercing weapon. There are ways of getting the Grab ability which also lets you Initiate, not prosecute, a Grapple as part of the attack with that Natural Weapon. And White Haired Witches can Grapple with their Hair in conjunction with a melee attack with the hair. Interestingly, they don't have the Grab ability, so if they might get it somehow and then start enjoying that +4. I'm pretty sure you can use Crane Wing to escape a Grapple. The AC bonuses from Total Defense and Crane Wing are meaningless when Grapple attempts are not against AC, but rather against CMD. But reviewing the descriptions of Grappling and Crane Wing, I don't see how Grappling is not a melee attack that can't be deflected by Crane Wing, unless, that is you narrowly define melee attacks as strikes. But an Grapple is an attack, and it is melee, so...
It wouldn't shut down a good grappler. If you had Greater Grapple and your opponent had Crane Wing, he only gets to deflect 1 of your attempts. If both of your attempts succeed, then 1 of them would Initiate the Grapple. On the 2nd round, again, if both your Grapple attempts succeed, then one of them gets through, and you can Pin your opponent. If you have Rapid Grappler, you get 3 of those Grapple Checks. Crane Wing doesn't automatically defeat grappling, but I think it certainly improves your defense against grappling.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: I'm pretty sure you can use Crane Wing to escape a Grapple. The AC bonuses from Total Defense and Crane Wing are meaningless when Grapple attempts are not against AC, but rather against CMD. But reviewing the descriptions of Grappling and Crane Wing, I don't see how Grappling is not a melee attack that can't be deflected by Crane Wing, unless, that is you narrowly define melee attacks as strikes. But an Grapple is an attack, and it is melee, so...
It wouldn't shut down a good grappler. If you had Greater Grapple and your opponent had Crane Wing, he only gets to deflect 1 of your attempts. If both of your attempts succeed, then 1 of them would Initiate the Grapple. On the 2nd round, again, if both your Grapple attempts succeed, then one of them gets through, and you can Pin your opponent. If you have Rapid Grappler, you get 3 of those Grapple Checks. Crane Wing doesn't automatically defeat grappling, but I think it certainly improves your defense against grappling.
Errataed Crane Wing wrote: Once per round, when fighting defensively with at least one hand free, you can designate a single opponent you can see. You receive a +2 dodge bonus to AC against that opponent for one round.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: I'm pretty sure you can use Crane Wing to escape a Grapple. The AC bonuses from Total Defense and Crane Wing are meaningless when Grapple attempts are not against AC, but rather against CMD. But reviewing the descriptions of Grappling and Crane Wing, I don't see how Grappling is not a melee attack that can't be deflected by Crane Wing, unless, that is you narrowly define melee attacks as strikes. But an Grapple is an attack, and it is melee, so...
It wouldn't shut down a good grappler. If you had Greater Grapple and your opponent had Crane Wing, he only gets to deflect 1 of your attempts. If both of your attempts succeed, then 1 of them would Initiate the Grapple. On the 2nd round, again, if both your Grapple attempts succeed, then one of them gets through, and you can Pin your opponent. If you have Rapid Grappler, you get 3 of those Grapple Checks. Crane Wing doesn't automatically defeat grappling, but I think it certainly improves your defense against grappling.
I disagree with your statement about Crane Strike.
As you can see in the rules for determining success of a Combat Maneuver:
Quote: If your attack roll equals or exceeds the CMD of the target, your maneuver is a success and has the listed effect. Some maneuvers, such as bull rush, have varying levels of success depending on how much your attack roll exceeds the target's CMD. Rolling a natural 20 while attempting a combat maneuver is always a success (except when attempting to escape from bonds), while rolling a natural 1 is always a failure. Never is 'hit' or 'miss' used to describe how a combat maneuver works. Because of that, a combat maneuver, like grapple, cannot be forced to miss you. Same with all of the other combat maneuvers.
Aydin,
I see your point, and I kind of made that point myself I wrote: unless, that is you narrowly define melee attacks as strikes. So you and I think Byakko are saying that you do narrowly define melee attacks to be strikes. I think the text you are quoting allows for both interpretations.
Clearly if you were the DM, and your player had Crane Wing, you would feel like a Grappler would completely shut down your PC's defense. But if you were the DM, and it was your NPC who had Crane Wing, and it was the Player Character who was the Grappler, are you sure you would rule that Crane Wing was completely ineffective against the Grappler?
I don't mean to impune your character. The point I'm making here is that permission-based interpretation works both ways. Both of these possibly broken configurations are things that player characters can select for themselves. Both of these are things that can be denied by narrow interpretations.
And I think that if you were a Grappler, you should expect that the occasional Monk with Crane Wing might be more difficult to grapple than you expect. If you are saying that if you were a Monk with Crane Wing, your defense works really well against a lot of things, but not everything. I agree with that, too.
Byakko wrote: Performing a Combat Maneuver wrote: When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll. Attack Roll wrote: If your result equals or beats the target's Armor Class, you hit and deal damage. ... A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss. It appears to me that Combat Maneuver rolls can indeed hit and miss, not just "fail". "If your result equals or beats the target's Armor Class..."
Even though a Combat Maneuver check is an attack roll, it isn't being compared to AC in the first place; it is being compared to CMD. So your combat maneuver attack roll cannot ever beat the target's AC, thus you never prompt the "hit or miss" rule in the first place.
My interpretation of Crane Wing, et all, is that the defending monk would get the dodge bonus to hes CMD, as dodge bonuses to AC are also applied to CMD, however, a retaliatory strike would not be applicable, as the maneuver "failed", but did not "miss". Is this the consensus?
galahad2112 wrote: My interpretation of Crane Wing, et all, is that the defending monk would get the dodge bonus to hes CMD, as dodge bonuses to AC are also applied to CMD, however, a retaliatory strike would not be applicable, as the maneuver "failed", but did not "miss". Is this the consensus? galahad, now you are talking about Crane Riposte? That would make your "retaliatory" attack an attack of opportunity, right?
If a the Monk were already in a Grapple, then they don't get an attack of Opportunity, because you don't get those in a Grapple (unless you do). If no Grapple had been achieved, then I would say that Crane Riposte would allow you to make an Attack of Opportunity on a failed Grapple attempt.
But I iterate, that since AC is not quite the same thing as CMD, I really don't think that any Crane Style feats grant any bonus to CMD.
I don't believe we have reached consensus.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: But I iterate, that since AC is not quite the same thing as CMD, I really don't think that any Crane Style feats grant any bonus to CMD. You are incorrect.
PRD wrote: The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Defense is as follows: Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8. Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMD when resisting specific maneuvers. A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD. It's a basic rule that dodge, among other bonuses, to AC also apply to CMD. So the bonus you gain from fighting defensively, as well as the bonus from Crane Wing, will both apply to CMD. However, since a failed combat maneuver is a "failure" rather than a "miss", Riposte wouldn't allow an AoO against a failed grapple.
Kazaan has the right of my perspective.
Dodge bonuses do indeed add to your CMD. I must try to remember this when my Feral Gnasher uses Crane Wing and Riposte while grappling. He can maintain the grapple as a Move action, and his hands are free and able to perform AoOs due to Improved Lockjaw. Having a little extra CMD to keep foes from escaping could be nice.
Recent threads in Rules Questions
|
