Reading this thread got me thinking:
Is there ANY viable combination of "dips" into classes that could make an effective upper-level character? I know it'll never be as efficient as a straight-to-capstone L20, but I'm very curious to see if anyone has ever made a super-multiclass build that's very functional.
Actually i'm pretty sure dipping into everything but caster classes will probably be very useful for end game. capstones i don't feel are necessarily great, they're powerful, but only because usually you can;t get that kind of ability anywhere else.
4 levels of oracle and you can get charisma to AC and all saves for instance. or 1 level of oracle and 2 levels of paladin.
you can't dip willy nilly obviously, it all has to overlap in a way that makes the character great at doing something. like i've seen some multiclasses where they have 4 different classes and are really really great at grappling.
then there's always taking 1 level of sorcerer to get into dragon disciple, etc.
Hm...
Bard 2
Paladin 2
Oracle 2
Dragon Disciple 2
Swashbuckler 2
Ninja 2
Fighter 2
barbarian 2
Bloodrager 2
Ranger 2
Level 20 with BAB of 16, great saves Charisma to almost everything, with several easy use resource pools, some spells.
Survivable not sure it would be awesome though.
See, Abraham, that's kind of what I was thinking. Not necessarily survivable against CR 20 stuff, but fun as hell to play? Seems like it.
I was thinking of running a campaign where you can only take a level in a class when your character level/3 is equal to that level, minimum 1.
So you cannot take your second level in any class until 6, 3rd at 9, and 4th at 12, 5th at 15, and 6th at 18.
I wonder what my players would build.
I'll think up some class combinations that are fun and throw them your way
Thanks, ShroudedInLight. Also, let me know how that campaign goes? I'd be interested in giving you another data point from a solo campaign perspective (I run solo games for my wife all the time).
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I'm currently playing and enjoying a Bloodrager 6 / Monk (Master of Many Styles) 2. Combine unarmed strikes with a reach weapon and use Snake Style to add a little extra defense.
Looking forward to dipping out of monk in an upcoming campaign: a monk (drunken monk of the sacred mountain) with 2-4 levels in alchemist (internal alchemist, chirurgen, maybe vivisectionist). Thematically, the monk is learning to brew extra-potent supernatural booze. Mechanically, I get a mutagen for a nice strength boost, small bomb (molotov cocktail) or a bit of sneak attack (pressure points), and a few utility extracts, and a need meditative hibernation thing that's very monk-like, plus getting back a little resistance to poison and disease which my monk archetypes traded away.
There MANY times where a dip or two is actually better than a straight 20. Let's face it, there are not that many level 20 caps that are so good that its worth the journey across all those levels. Full Spellcasters and a few divine classes of course get looked at the most as they should.
I don't think he's talking about taking a single dip, but rather a character build that is nothing but dips (like what Abraham Spalding suggests). There are lots of very nice dips, particularly for classes that lack good capstones. On the other hand, building a character out of nothing but level 2-4 investments in a variety of classes would be a steep challenge indeed.
I could see doing it with Gunslinger. You take 5 levels in Gunslinger for Gun Training 1, then pursue other classes. The only major class feature you lose out on is lightning reload at the 11th. Here's my thoughts:
Gunslinger 5 for gun training
Alchemist 4 (mutagen for +4 to Dex and vestigial arm for reloading)
Urban Barbarian 2 (controlled rage for +4 to Dex)
Weapon Master Fighter 3 (feats and early weapon training)
Horizon Walker 2 (ignore concealment, treat total concealment as concealment)
Not exactly sure where to take it for the last 4 levels. You could take additional levels in any of your existing classes, of course, but that's not the point. Maybe a few levels in Ranger? Not sure what archetype would work best for this, though.
See, Abraham, that's kind of what I was thinking. Not necessarily survivable against CR 20 stuff, but fun as hell to play? Seems like it.
Nayh that will be survivable. You have whatever armor you want one stat to concentrate to boost your defenses (meaning you can actually dump both wisdom and dexterity), et al.
You might not contribute as much damage, but you are still fully functional and not likely to die from failed saves or what not.
If I was to do the gunslinger one I would do it thusly:
Gunslinger (musketeer) 5
Fighter (weapon master) 3
Monk (Sohei) 8
Cavalier (lurking) 4
That gives you flurry of blows with your firearm, with two extra attacks, dex to damage, good save throws, and light armor with it.
Luring Cavalier and Sohei Monk definitely work well as options here. Hmmm... Monks don't lose any class features if they "fall" from lawfulness, so it would be possible to mix our two builds with a well-timed alignment change:
Gunslinger 5
Fighter (Weapon Master) 3
Alchemist 2
Monk (Sohei) 6
Barbarian (Urban) 1
Cavalier (Luring) 3
As a change of pace, I'd go with the Pistol (dual-wield) instead of the Musket. Thanks to vestigial arm I have a free hand to reload. Should be a nice torrential rain of bullets. If only there were a way to cut down on the Monk or Gunslinger levels here to fit in that 2 level dip in Horizon Walker and take this monstrocity up to 7 classes used.
Sleuth Investigator 4
Trench fighter 5
Picaroon Swashbuckler 3
Gunslinger 5
Shield Marshal 3
I would grab snap shot and improved snap shot with everything else.
Use the rapier with fencing grace I think so you can have the inspired weapon.
Lots of pools to pull from too.
I will let you know, been too busy to come up with fun builds right now.
Anyway, I have a houserule in my games called "Preserved Progression" where any character that multiclasses into a different class with the same BAB progression keeps progressing their BAB as if they took a level in the original class.
Basically, it means that any level of a class with 3/4ths BAB can multiclass into another 3/4ths BAB class without taking too many +0 BAB levels.
Luring Cavalier and Sohei Monk definitely work well as options here. Hmmm... Monks don't lose any class features if they "fall" from lawfulness, so it would be possible to mix our two builds with a well-timed alignment change:
Gunslinger 5
Fighter (Weapon Master) 3
Alchemist 2
Monk (Sohei) 6
Barbarian (Urban) 1
Cavalier (Luring) 3As a change of pace, I'd go with the Pistol (dual-wield) instead of the Musket. Thanks to vestigial arm I have a free hand to reload. Should be a nice torrential rain of bullets. If only there were a way to cut down on the Monk or Gunslinger levels here to fit in that 2 level dip in Horizon Walker and take this monstrocity up to 7 classes used.
Can't flurry and two weapon, and if you flurry you have no reason to use more than one weapon. The musket gets more damage and more range, and with the musket master (I named the wrong one) you can reload as fast as you like.
When you add in rapid shot, the extra attack from ki and an attack from haste you have +x-4/+x-4/+x-4/+x-4/+x-4/+x-9/+x-9/+x-14/+x-19 as your attack rate before deadly aim, meaning 10 attacks.
Reading this thread got me thinking:
Is there ANY viable combination of "dips" into classes that could make an effective upper-level character? I know it'll never be as efficient as a straight-to-capstone L20, but I'm very curious to see if anyone has ever made a super-multiclass build that's very functional.
If you play a skill focused game, then I really like the Infiltrator Inquisitor mixed with Zen Archer. Great saves, great skills, absolutely astonishing SADness on WIS. You can add more monk if you want to favor combat and saves, and more Inquisitor if you want to favor everything else.
Several Aid Another builds work decently well with lots of dipping.
Example - halfling character, let's say. You'd want, in no particular order...
1) Cavalier (Honor Guard) 3 - arguably with Order of the Dragon; some tables won't accept that and the Helpful Trait
2) Paladin (Sacred Shield) 4 - because lending shield AC to adjacent allies is rad
3) Fighter (Lore Warden) 2 - for feats
4) Monk (Sensei) 1 - allows you to Aid on all knowledge checks (and you get 6 skill points so you can grab them all)
5) Brawler 2 - for a bonus feat and a choose-a-feat-a-day ability + two high saves
7) Hunter 4 - Tack on Boon Companion and combine with the 3 levels of cavalier and you have an 11th level animal companion; also have druid spells, also your mount automatically has all your teamwork feats, also you can see through your mount's eyes
8) Golden Legionnaire 4 - More Aid Another bonuses; bonus feat; buff allies with Move Action; better saving throws; more ally buffs
Alternatively, dipping around for 10 levels and then taking 10 levels of Golden Legionnaire isn't a horrible tactic either.
I am thinking of making a list of what is worth Dipping into, just because I'm bored and this is spring break.
The key things you would be looking for a static bonuses and early class abilities. I'll work on it and post it.
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See, Abraham, that's kind of what I was thinking. Not necessarily survivable against CR 20 stuff, but fun as hell to play? Seems like it.
fun as hell, and don't underestimate the compounding effect of half a dozen "let's you use ability X as if you are 5 level higher" magic items that would rock pantloads with that crazy 10 dip build! :)
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Oh, I completely misunderstood this. Using ShroudedInLight's guideline as the standard for dipping (max 6 levels per class at 20):
Mounted Tactician
Cavalier 6
Hunter 6
Inquisitor (Sacred Huntmaster) 4
Monk (Sohei) 4
This one has two major synergies: the mount, and teamwork feats. You get a character level-1 animal companion (with Boon Companion), who benefits from Animal Focus and your buff spells, can lend you their senses, and shares all your teamwork feats. You get four bonus teamwork feats, one of which you can change as a standard action and another of which you can share with your non-mount allies. Wisdom powers your spells and ki pool.
Shifting Mauler
Inquisitor 5
Barbarian (Savage Barbarian) 5
Druid 4
Monk 4
Fighter (Mutation Warrior) 2
This one builds off the Druid/Monk multiclass, the idea behind which is to take Feral Combat Training, turn into something with one big natural attack, and then flurry with it. Shaping Focus lets you wild shape as an 8th level druid, which is enough for some pretty impressive forms. Inquisitor adds wisdom synergy and extra skills, plus Bane which makes your big attack even bigger. Druid and inquisitor spells should focus on utility and a few buffs. The barbarian and fighter boost your BAB, Str, and Con, and give you a pair of extra feats.
Sword and Pistol Terror
Swashbuckler 5
Ninja 5
Alchemist (Vivisectionist) 3
Gunsinger (Mysterious Stranger) 3
Fighter 2
Barbarian (Savage Technologist) 2
Take Slashing or Fencing Grace and focus on Dex and Cha. You have almost full BAB, generous ki and panache/grit pools full of abilities to increase your mobility and damage, and a healthy 5d6 Sneak Attack. Vivisectionist adds a Dex mutagen and contributes to the Sneak Attack; you'll want at least an 11 Int in order to make a few extracts. Savage Technologist gives you another Dex boost (though your rounds of rage are limited) and both it and Fighter will help you fill out your combat style.
Duelist Detective
Magus 6
Wizard (Diviner) 6
Swashbuckler (Inspired Blade) 5
Investigator (Empiricist) 3
This one's probably a bit weaker than the others because casters don't multiclass as well. However, you've got good Int synergy, fantastic initiative between the diviner and the swashbuckler, and are pretty versatile. Works like a Fencing Grace crit-fishing magus but you get some feats for free from swashbuckler as well as a selection of deeds. Investigator gives you a Dex mutagen (through the Discovery talent) and expands your skills, including letting you use your Int for Perception and UMD. You'll probably want Magical Knack for Magus to keep caster level high on your offensive spells; Wizard will primarily expand your utility options. Arcanist should also work instead of Diviner. BAB is only 14 at level 20 so you'll want to take feats, spells & arcana with improving accuracy in mind. Consider Kenasi to get Int to AC, though Diminished Spellcasting hurts and you don't get the fun stuff until higher levels.
Overall thoughts: There are definitely some fun combos, and some of them should hold up pretty well in a standard game. However if the whole group looks like this you're probably light on casting. This might actually be a plus if you're worried about casters getting crazy at high levels, but remember your group is probably lacking things like Restoration, and in-combat healing will be even less effective. Prestige classes will be the only way to get spells above level 3, and under these constraints Mystic Theurge and Arcane Trickster start looking quite attractive to people who want to play characters with a casting focus.
Warpriest sacred fist 1
Paladin 1
fighter Mutation Fighter/Unarmed Fighter/fighter 1
ranger freebooter/guide 1
cavalier Emissary 1
brawler Mutagenic Mauler/Snakebite Striker 1
bloodrager 1
slayer 1
swashbuckler 1
So you're level 9 with full BAB
your saves will be
Fort 2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2= 16
Ref 2+2+2+2=8
Will 2+2=4
which are higher than a normal lv 9 character.
You'll have panache to parry
flurry of blows in mithral full plate
40 move speed in that armor
some cleric spells and blessings
Mutagen or some sneak attack
Taking a second level can get lots of good stuff too, paladin, warpriest, slayer and ranger
Also adding a level of archaeologist bard for swift luck boosts.
Cavalier/beast rider 1
Hunter 1
wild child brawler 1
mad dog barbarian 1
oracle nature/lunar 1
Sacred Huntsmaster Inquisitor 1
sylvan sorcerer 1
druid 1
lv 8 with a full animal companion
Fort 2+2+2+2+2+2=12
Dex 2+2=4
will 2+2+2+2=8