Something else to keep in mind is that both characters have a Code of Conduct they are mechanically obligated to follow, not just the Paladin.
An Evil Cleric, by necessity, (outside of just raising Undead), is going to have to do some evil things to placate their deity.
Where does it say that someone must do evil things if you are a cleric worshipping an evil deity? From what I understand the problem may be that doing things for him might require evil acts, but evil acts themselves are not required since you can be non-evil, and still have an evil deity.
Careful with mistaking your opinion for fact. Also be careful with mistaking optional, setting-specific books with Core RAW. As I stated, I'm talking core, and by core RAW Create undead does no such thing.
Considering the fact that I was speaking specifically about Golarion lore and stated that the GM is free to create a setting where the use of Create Undead isn't directly contributing to the end of the world, I believe that campaign setting books are in fact completely valid. What's even the point of them existing if you can't draw from them to learn details of the campain setting?
Get with GM on this idea.
1. Have a piece of paper that states that they give the player the right to use their bodies for science and to further his goals. Have it documented and signed like how we do for donating bodies to science.
2. Make it a point to take care of the bones and remains and those being ur raised undead. The other undead u raise would be from slain enemies and destroyed when the fighting or purpose is done. Also be tactful when u use said ability. Dank caves and dungeons=okay. Get jumped by some pickpockets in the middle of a market=raise undead bad idea.
3. Maybe focus around debuffing and whatnot with normal enemies and the "save able" ones. Maybe use touch of fatigue with a warning to back away or using fears. There is so much debuffing possible. Debuff and demoralize without actually shedding blood and u might notice that the paladin won't have much to complain or object to.
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Where does it say that someone must do evil things if you are a cleric worshipping an evil deity? From what I understand the problem may be that doing things for him might require evil acts, but evil acts themselves are not required since you can be non-evil, and still have an evil deity.Something else to keep in mind is that both characters have a Code of Conduct they are mechanically obligated to follow, not just the Paladin.
An Evil Cleric, by necessity, (outside of just raising Undead), is going to have to do some evil things to placate their deity.
But the Cleric IS LE. Assuming the game has homebrew deities, we cant really say what the code is, or even what the deity's Alignment is, but being Evil isn't an excuse to do whatever and scratch out the Alignment on the Character Sheet. As a Cleric, just like Good Clerics, they have to maintain a certain level of purity/desecration to be within the "good graces" of their patron. So unless you are saying a Good Cleric needn't do anything Good, the LE Undead Lord doesn't just get to be LE jus' cause.
Also, yes, in PF, (as someone who campaigned for it not to be, I like Good Undead, and the concept of Good Clerics/Paladins raising slain allies to fight on), almost all Undead (99ish%) are Evil, with the extremely rare non-evil undead being intentionally reserved for story purposes. There is a Good Ghost, a few Neutral ones, and at least one Neutral Mummy. But these are not things a Player can do. I only know of 3 ways for a Player to get non-evil undead.
1.) Juju Oracle, though this was errataed out.
2.) Wish/Miracle
3.) The Skeleton Crew spell doesn't have an Alignment component, so a Good Cleric can cast it. Unclear on the actual Alignment of the non-combative Undead, though.
Depending on the god worshiped, yes it can.
we had a party themed after greyhawk's Wee Jas,
we had a cleric with power of death and to a lesser extent, undead,
a sorceress with a focus on fire,
and a paladin of Wee Jas.
pay no mind to the rogue. =)
Also, on-topic:
If I wanted to play an undead using necromancer alongside a paladin, I'd go White Necromancer with Kobold Press' take on the concept. It's about working with the dead rather than enslaving them.
Also, alignment restriction: Must be non-evil.
I'm making a concept of a 'White hat' necromancer (named after the hacker type), right down to a literal white hat. (Ask me in character and I'll talk about the ugly, gaudy thing reluctantly.)
The idea being; how best to defeat necromancers? With necromancy. Counterspell, control undead, and yes, even death or curse spells to defeat your enemy.
This character is intended to be grim Chaotic neutral, from chaotic good. However, if the character were lawful evil, with a code against 'lesser, unworthy priests wielding the profane art supreme', he could have a mission of removing competition, and the wasting of negative energy. He could even be fighting enemy necromancers to prevent the good guys from mastering techniques against his OWN spells, for a future attempt a massive conquest.
Ideas to try out. I'd suggest the Anti-Necromancer necromancer myself; your methods make you evil, but your intention is to remove the rampent, chaotic spread of undead hordes. (Elite vs the rabble)
What's the status of the old Juju Oracle in golarion?, it will be sad if there is not some vudu-like practices in the mwangi expanse. I DM for an oracle like that in a red hand of doom campaign alongside with a paladin of Iomedae, that oracle was one of the most colorful character I've seen.
Old Juju was retconned out of existence under the pretense that Paizo does not want legal "Good" necromancers.
Also, on-topic:
If I wanted to play an undead using necromancer alongside a paladin, I'd go White Necromancer with Kobold Press' take on the concept. It's about working with the dead rather than enslaving them.
Also, alignment restriction: Must be non-evil.
I'd like to play one of those someday; a necromancer who contracts with the souls of dead heroes to continue working towards the aims of Good rather than forcefully binding them to their rotting flesh is my kind of jam.
I'd like to play one of those someday; a necromancer who contracts with the souls of dead heroes to continue working towards the aims of Good rather than forcefully binding them to their rotting flesh is my kind of jam.Also, on-topic:
If I wanted to play an undead using necromancer alongside a paladin, I'd go White Necromancer with Kobold Press' take on the concept. It's about working with the dead rather than enslaving them.
Also, alignment restriction: Must be non-evil.
You can in a few ways. Temporary resurrection can be a nice short term solution to interact with someone. It also doesn't require their consent like raise dead does and is not evil. Speak with dead is another communication tool. Contact other plane and other divinations lets you talk with their deity if you know it and is actually steps on what necromancy originally was real world lore-wise. Blood biography has great mechanics and flavor as well and also isn't evil.
That fits the flavor of the necromancer I want, yes, but it doesn't fit the mechanics. I'm the kind of player that wants both.
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I'd like to play one of those someday; a necromancer who contracts with the souls of dead heroes to continue working towards the aims of Good rather than forcefully binding them to their rotting flesh is my kind of jam.Also, on-topic:
If I wanted to play an undead using necromancer alongside a paladin, I'd go White Necromancer with Kobold Press' take on the concept. It's about working with the dead rather than enslaving them.
Also, alignment restriction: Must be non-evil.
Do check it out! It sounds like a perfect match for you!
To give an idea on how they work, their usual undead raising methods require Diplomacy checks. :D They make for perfect "Hey, someone has to fight for the dead too" characters.
There's also an archetype where they get one major undead companion. The other archetype focuses on spooOOooOOky healing.
The artwork for their original article debut sums up what they're about beautifully. :) That is how I want to necromancer.
Where does it say that someone must do evil things if you are a cleric worshipping an evil deity? From what I understand the problem may be that doing things for him might require evil acts, but evil acts themselves are not required since you can be non-evil, and still have an evil deity.Something else to keep in mind is that both characters have a Code of Conduct they are mechanically obligated to follow, not just the Paladin.
An Evil Cleric, by necessity, (outside of just raising Undead), is going to have to do some evil things to placate their deity.
But the Cleric IS LE. Assuming the game has homebrew deities, we cant really say what the code is, or even what the deity's Alignment is, but being Evil isn't an excuse to do whatever and scratch out the Alignment on the Character Sheet. As a Cleric, just like Good Clerics, they have to maintain a certain level of purity/desecration to be within the "good graces" of their patron. So unless you are saying a Good Cleric needn't do anything Good, the LE Undead Lord doesn't just get to be LE jus' cause.
Also, yes, in PF, (as someone who campaigned for it not to be, I like Good Undead, and the concept of Good Clerics/Paladins raising slain allies to fight on), almost all Undead (99ish%) are Evil, with the extremely rare non-evil undead being intentionally reserved for story purposes. There is a Good Ghost, a few Neutral ones, and at least one Neutral Mummy. But these are not things a Player can do. I only know of 3 ways for a Player to get non-evil undead.
1.) Juju Oracle, though this was errataed out.
2.) Wish/Miracle
3.) The Skeleton Crew spell doesn't have an Alignment component, so a Good Cleric can cast it. Unclear on the actual Alignment of the non-combative Undead, though.
The cleric can change alignment and still be within one step depending on where he started. If you are trying to say he may be within one step of falling out of grace then I agree, but that is different from "must commit evil acts".
As an example if the deity is LE, and the cleric is LE then he can go to LN and not fall out of grace.
That fits the flavor of the necromancer I want, yes, but it doesn't fit the mechanics. I'm the kind of player that wants both.
I don't get what mechanics you want, then. You said you wanted to work with the dead rather than enslaving them, and I listed out some options just off the top of my head that let you do exactly that. Whateva'
I think she wants to have their spirits fight beside her or come back to their bodies, but they would have a body that looks alive instead of a rotting one, and she does not want to have to reflavor anything.
off topic: Buri why did you make a new avatar and a new name? Just curious.
off topic: Buri why did you make a new avatar and a new name? Just curious.
Some prior B.S. which resulted in my old account being deleted at my request.
Exactly that, wraithstrike. The Grave-Bound White Necromancer Mikaze referred to seems to be exactly the sort of thing I want; I'll have to remember it exists for when I have an opportunity to play one.
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This is what happens when selfish a**@@%& players expect other people to make accomodation for their whims.
No this will not work. At all. By RAW or RAI. The end.
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Im sorry my friend, but you are getting smited ASAP.
Best case scenario, the paladin goes all moral on you and try to convert you into something good. Otherwise you die.
Perhaps with a good spellcraft check he can show you that you can resurrect your family with several spells not evil aligned. Otherwise you die.
If he is not a dumb brute, he will convince you to follow him into his order headquarters to stop doing what you do. Otherwise you die.
Otherwise you die if you dont kill him first.
Someone said that just because you dont want to change your alignement, the paladin shouldnt have to research so much info to be able to share "legally" a pary with you. I agree.
Finally, as I see campaigns, there will be a time when you WILL cross the paladin, even if you are a Good-aligned character, everyone sometime will always cross the paladin. And you will fight each other. If not soon, later, and if by some metagaming DM classic "Bullsh*t" the paladin is being allowed to wait, prepare to have several sessions with a paladin preparing to fight the undead more eficiently than ever, because he will know.
Regards!
And if it's a paladin of Sarenrae there would probably be long sermons regarding the error of the cleric's ways, though I will concede that doesn't offer any respite for the undead that the cleric raises.
And really for most paladins their code of conduct would prevent them from cooperating with the cleric towards evil ends but refusing to work with the cleric on any and every matter is in no way necessitated.
I will redeem the ignorant with my words and my actions. If they will not turn toward the light, I will redeem them by the sword.
Not "long sermons" as in the plural. "Long sermon", singular, then "redeem them by the sword."
Paladins of Serenrae aren't to mess around with that. Set upon the path of righteousness and they'll help and guide you. Refuse and they are to destroy you.
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The cleric can change alignment and still be within one step depending on where he started. If you are trying to say he may be within one step of falling out of grace then I...Where does it say that someone must do evil things if you are a cleric worshipping an evil deity? From what I understand the problem may be that doing things for him might require evil acts, but evil acts themselves are not required since you can be non-evil, and still have an evil deity.Something else to keep in mind is that both characters have a Code of Conduct they are mechanically obligated to follow, not just the Paladin.
An Evil Cleric, by necessity, (outside of just raising Undead), is going to have to do some evil things to placate their deity.
But the Cleric IS LE. Assuming the game has homebrew deities, we cant really say what the code is, or even what the deity's Alignment is, but being Evil isn't an excuse to do whatever and scratch out the Alignment on the Character Sheet. As a Cleric, just like Good Clerics, they have to maintain a certain level of purity/desecration to be within the "good graces" of their patron. So unless you are saying a Good Cleric needn't do anything Good, the LE Undead Lord doesn't just get to be LE jus' cause.
Also, yes, in PF, (as someone who campaigned for it not to be, I like Good Undead, and the concept of Good Clerics/Paladins raising slain allies to fight on), almost all Undead (99ish%) are Evil, with the extremely rare non-evil undead being intentionally reserved for story purposes. There is a Good Ghost, a few Neutral ones, and at least one Neutral Mummy. But these are not things a Player can do. I only know of 3 ways for a Player to get non-evil undead.
1.) Juju Oracle, though this was errataed out.
2.) Wish/Miracle
3.) The Skeleton Crew spell doesn't have an Alignment component, so a Good Cleric can cast it. Unclear on the actual Alignment of the non-combative Undead, though.
There may be a disconnect here. Im not talking about any generic LE Cleric, but rather the OPs specific, "player wants to be a LE Cleric in a party with a Paladin." Unless we hear otherwise, going LN is not intentionally an option, as the point is to play LE.
That could change, but that's not really relevant, as the initial question is "can a party with a LE Undead Lord + Paladin work?"
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Paizo and Golarion have a terrible history of saying one thing, and then a few years later changing it, presenting it like it was always supposed to be that way, in spite of their own quotes saying the exact opposite. My understanding is that all Golarion Drow are evil, because they work different in Golarion, and if they stop being Evil, they are not Drow. Could be wrong, and Paizo might have changed that, but that's what they have said since before Second Darkness..It's not spelled out in a product, but James Jacobs actually confirmed that drow transformation only goes one way, so an elf that crossed the moral event horizon hard enough could become a drow, but even the most saintly drow remains a drow.
Honestly, I'm glad that it doesn't work in the other direction because man those would be some unfortunate implications. "You are redeemed! Be now light-skinned!" D:
Plus, it works wonderfully with the image of the Black Butterfly, who is pretty much the perfect Empyreal Lord for good drow to revere and emulate. Heck, her Obedience ritual is practically a survival tactic for them.
Honestly, any Eilistraee fans that are still angry over what happened to her should check her out. You can even easily headcanon her as a reincarnation. :)
Regarding orcs, it was more of a party line that got pushed hard on the forums. Nowadays, it's easy as pie to have half-orcs born of consensual unions and have some sources for decent orcs to arise. And it doesn't take away any options from those that preferred tragedy and atrocity. Now we all have options.
But the point I was getting at is that Paizo intentionally designed Drow to be nearly universally Evil, noting that they did not want Drizzts and Eilistraee-like Redeemed Drow themes to be common on Golarion. That does mean they cant exist, just that they are exceptionally uncommon, (heck, knowledge of the existence of Drow is rare).
As for Orcs/Half-Orcs, yes, I know. :) Despite pretty much every published book on the subject saying otherwise, some "chick" on the internet kept pushing for Good Orcs and accepted Half-Orcs.
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Also, it is not only Paladins that stand opposed.
It is a core question of believes. If I play a bard following the faith of Saranrae I will also explain any cleric/oracle whatever that if he wants to join our party, I do not want any undead close by. I do not care a fig if it is for the greater good
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There may be a disconnect here. Im not talking about any generic LE Cleric, but rather the OPs specific, "player wants to be a LE Cleric in a party with a Paladin." Unless we hear otherwise, going LN is not intentionally an option, as the point is to play LE.
That could change, but that's not really relevant, as the initial question is "can a party with a LE Undead Lord + Paladin work?"
Ok. I completely misunderstood you.
It is an ultimately selfish thing for a player to want to intrude on an existing campaign with defined characters and alignments with something that completely and utterly - by RAW or RAI - does not fit.
GMs need to be much more strict on stamping out people with these attitudes and really ask them what it is they hope to get out of playing in an *group* game. I think video games are a better outlet for someone looking for that level of individual catharsis.
There are GMs who get their jollies setting up situations like this.It is an ultimately selfish thing for a player to want to intrude on an existing campaign with defined characters and alignments with something that completely and utterly - by RAW or RAI - does not fit.
GMs need to be much more strict on stamping out people with these attitudes and really ask them what it is they hope to get out of playing in an *group* game. I think video games are a better outlet for someone looking for that level of individual catharsis.
If that was the case here, there would be no need for this thread.