Can this work?? LE cleric in party with paladin


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Silver Crusade

Ok, so here's the rundown (short story)

- Cleric is LE, has several Undead minions, the main of which are 2 separate ones. one is used via the undead lord archetype, the other via normal means.

Now, this Cleric is far from "doom doom death death" as a matter of fact, the reason he practices necromancy is because he wanted the love of his life and his daughter back, after a freak Incident took them from him. Having failed, he has taken to a very, uncaring view on life and seeks immortality so that he may one day perfect a way to bring them back. (yes, Resurrection spells are gifts from gods in this world, not normal spells) He seeks to amass a fortune and set himself up as a noble merchant for a front.

The paladin, is well, a paladin to the very core of what you imagine one to be.

Cleric has maxed disguise skill, and plans to pass his skeleton companion (undead lord one) off as his mute butler. And to use said disguise on any and all undead he would summon. He also plans to invest in a wand of CLW and to prepare said spells.

I quite like the idea, however I forsee a confliction on the horizon. Eventually the paladin will pass a spellcraft or perception check...

I guess in the end its up to the players. (all made characters, the cleric knew their would be a paladin, but I don't think he wants to cause any disruption.

would you, as players see a way to make this work IC?


No. Just... no.


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Oh yeah, Paladins are fully capable of working with an evil character towards a united and greater cau-

"Sees your character is a necromancer"

Nope, not gonna work.


This depends on several factors. I've played so many paladins in various campaigns that it's bar - none my favorite class of all time. Firstly check with the paladin player about their code. Some gods are able to give Paladins some wiggle room on how they are allowed to handle a situation like that.

The half orc archetype (Redeemer) is made for situations like this. It allows the Paladin to travel with any evil creature so long as the Paladin can justify their ability to be redeemed.

Secondly to this any Paladin may travel with an evil creature so long as their purpose aligns. If you both want to end an event that could wipe out life on the planet the Paladin is allowed to work with you so long as the common interest exists and the two of you come to terms on behavior.

Now if your GM is more liberal I suggest the 2nd Ed splat of "Ex-Patriot" for the Paladin. Basically the Paladin gives up all caring for the mortal laws of man and follows only his God's law. So the Paladin can ignore laws and church edicts (only the GOD can dictate to the Paladin) that prevent his actions or associates.

You may also want to look into a way to appear lawful neutral on the regular. It helps. Also makes the whole "I use undead to better understand the nature of life" jive sound less tyrant - esque. The Paladin can give MUCH wider space to LN.

Hope that helps!

Dark Archive

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Anything based on deception is going to fail, eventually. Based on the nature of the scenario, it is almost inevitably going to end in player vs. player and hurt feelings and a bad experience for pretty much everyone.

Golarion, just picking that setting, has opportunities for one to play a LE cleric and a Paladin without conflict, both openly working as members of the Hellknights / Godclaw, for example. They may not like each other (or maybe they do!), they certainly won't agree on how different situations should be resolved, but LE clerics don't generally have a 'code' of things they must or must not do, so there is nothing preventing the LE cleric from complaining, 'Meh, seems like a nuisance to march the prisoners back to town, why don't we just kill them?' to role-play his character, and then let the Paladin do what he *has to do anyway,* because of his code. The LE cleric doesn't *have* to be a dick. He's not going to 'fall' or lose his cleric powers because he let the Paladin decide what was going to happen to the prisoners, he can just snark about it and go on with advancing their shared goals (which, if they are Hellknights, or part of a similar organization that upholds tenets of law, and can have both LE and LG members, will be to stamp out chaotic elements such as a demonic infestation, rakshasa crime ring or malevolent fey uprising).

But that requires *intelligent* evil, willing to accede to the Paladin's own strict requirements, recognizing that if he wants to keep the Paladin as a powerful ally (and not possibly get smited to death!), he has to bend a little and accept that things may not be done as 'efficiently' as he would personally prefer. This sort of evil cleric is the non-megalomaniac sort, who can date a non-smoker, or a vegetarian, or whatever, and curb his own smoking / carnivorous preferences to 'keep the peace' and not offend / provoke / discomfort his partner.

It's also not going to work with an Undead Lord or similar undead-junkie. Undead, in Golarion at least, are pretty much always evil. (Even that Paladin, if you animate his mindless corpse, or call up his LG spirit, is going to go all grrevil pretty much instantly, as ridiculous as that is.) Casting spells to animate the dead is also pretty much always evil. If you want to work with a Paladin, those spells and options need to be off the table. You've got a *ton* of sadistic horrible options, that aren't evil, like inflicting poisons and curses on people, or striking them permanently blind or deaf, or using hold person and then coup de grace-ing them, or summoning up resolute (not fiendish!) dire rats to nibble them to death (and afflict them with filth fever). Avoid [evil] descriptor spells like animate dead and contagion (not terribly effective anyway...) and death knell and protection from good (has there ever been a use for this, in any adventure?).

The only way, IMO, this can work long-term is if both players and characters are on-board and agree to cooperate, for some mutually important goal (such as opposing demons in the Worldwound, in Golarion), and that's going to restrict the actions of the LE cleric to not do anything that egregiously offends the Paladins code and sensibilities (since that's unfortunately what the Paladin's Code does, restrict the choice of *other players,* making it a selfish and kind of 'evil' choice for a player to make).

Fortunately for the evil cleric player, as long as he's ever played any of the dozens of games out there that don't have alignment, or watched any of the hundreds of shows or read any of the hundreds of books that have an 'evil' protagonist working alongside 'the good guys' to accomplish a mutually important goal, it's easy as pie. The legacy of D&D is pretty much the only place where 'good' and 'evil' even exist as *mechanical* concepts, and are purportedly incapable of working together, as if both are mindless zombie robots running incompatible programs and doomed to fight to the death because they lack free will or the ability to compromise or agree to disagree or at least defer gratification.

Outside of Golarion, the existence of the Blood War (demons vs. devils) in earlier editions of D&D, make a temporary team up between good guys and LE sorts even *more* thematically appropriate. As long as they are smiting Orcus / Grazz't / Demogorgon worshippers, those Paladins are a devil-worshippers best friends (and *far* more effective than a Blackguard or 'Paladin of Tyranny' would be!).


The greater evil clause could apply. However, that better be some massive greater evil, like imminent massively greater evil and not just some vague thing that might come about.

Silver Crusade

just a note- I would be the NN rogue sitting in the shadows with popcorn + coke if it ever came to blows. GM is lenient on paladin codes soooo.


I think something that a lot of people then to look over in Pathfinder is the fact that good and evil are not as dramatically opposed in Golarion are they are in a number of other settings. As suggested earlier good and evil people work together some times and this cooperation goes all the way up to the gods. It's not so much that the paladin and cleric would necessarily be mortal enemies but they may a good part of the time be disgusted but each other's conduct and personal views.

From a lore perspective I don't see why it couldn't be done but the player perspective gets a little murkier and hugely depends on how well players are willing to cooperate and put reasonable limits on themselves when their character might not.

Silver Crusade

the LE cleric seems to be more "If letting that house full of children burn furthers my goals, then let it burn"

and not " I want to burn kids cuz evil."


I could see a character like that work. Of course, it hings heavily on how reasonable the players involved are but if you have faith in the players I would see no reason to disallow it. A conflicted party can range from being to hugely entertaining to being so dysfunctional that it's painful to watch. Having some thoughts in mind on what to do if it starts to swing towards the latter wouldn't be a bad idea.


...are you this guy? From earlier today, not mine. Short answer, no, it doesn't work out.


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ExiledMimic wrote:

This depends on several factors. I've played so many paladins in various campaigns that it's bar - none my favorite class of all time. Firstly check with the paladin player about their code. Some gods are able to give Paladins some wiggle room on how they are allowed to handle a situation like that.

The half orc archetype (Redeemer) is made for situations like this. It allows the Paladin to travel with any evil creature so long as the Paladin can justify their ability to be redeemed.

Secondly to this any Paladin may travel with an evil creature so long as their purpose aligns. If you both want to end an event that could wipe out life on the planet the Paladin is allowed to work with you so long as the common interest exists and the two of you come to terms on behavior.

Now if your GM is more liberal I suggest the 2nd Ed splat of "Ex-Patriot" for the Paladin. Basically the Paladin gives up all caring for the mortal laws of man and follows only his God's law. So the Paladin can ignore laws and church edicts (only the GOD can dictate to the Paladin) that prevent his actions or associates.

You may also want to look into a way to appear lawful neutral on the regular. It helps. Also makes the whole "I use undead to better understand the nature of life" jive sound less tyrant - esque. The Paladin can give MUCH wider space to LN.

Hope that helps!

I don't know, a lot of your ideas seem to center around "The paladin could...". Honestly, in this case, I don't think the Paladin should have to do anything to accomodate that concept.

The cleric player knew there would be a Paladin, and still he made an evil necromancer.

I'm not the hugest fans of Paladins, but in this case, I don't see how the burden of making this work should be on the paladin's shoulders by adjusting his code, picking some weird 2nd ed thing or just playing dumb and never noticing.

Honestly if you got a weird gut feeling already, so that you have to ask "Does this work in the long run?", the answer is probably "No" and you should just say "No".


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I'll provide an answer as best I can, but I'm working with the assumption that your GMs world does not offer rules outside of core RAW, other than what you have explicitly stated.

rorek55 wrote:

Ok, so here's the rundown (short story)

- Cleric is LE, has several Undead minions, the main of which are 2 separate ones. one is used via the undead lord archetype, the other via normal means.

So far, there is no problem. Undead are not always evil, and the undead and their existence is not something the Paladin is required to oppose or fight. This may be different if the Paladin venerates a deity who is opposed to the existence of undead, in which case you guys might wind up with a heated philosophical debate, or worse, depending on the dogma of the god, and nature of the Paladin.

rorek55 wrote:
Now, this Cleric is far from "doom doom death death" as a matter of fact, the reason he practices necromancy is because he wanted the love of his life and his daughter back, after a freak Incident took them from him. Having failed, he has taken to a very, uncaring view on life and seeks immortality so that he may one day perfect a way to bring them back. (yes, Resurrection spells are gifts from gods in this world, not normal spells) He seeks to amass a fortune and set himself up as a noble merchant for a front.

Tragic. This is not at odds with the paladin either, though an uncaring view of life, and how that makes your character interact with the living, could very well prove problematic. Expect philosophical discussion with the paladin, that you cannot expect to avoid. But you should not have any problems working with him, as long as you do not become one of the forces that he has to protect innocents from. Stick to raising corpses(instead of making corpses ;) ), and only the corpses of the forgotten and unmourned and you'll not inflict any harm on anyone.

rorek55 wrote:
The paladin, is well, a paladin to the very core of what you imagine one to be.

You'll be surprised how many different paladins people can imagine. What is bound to annoy you, is how many of said people are willing to fight you to the death, in order to convince you, that you are not allowed to think differently from them. Still, a Paladin, as presented in the CRB, offers no problems on the basis of the class alone. What you have to worry about are the traits of the character, the dogma of his god, and how he acts on stuff that falls outside his paladin code.

rorek55 wrote:
Cleric has maxed disguise skill, and plans to pass his skeleton companion (undead lord one) off as his mute butler. And to use said disguise on any and all undead he would summon. He also plans to invest in a wand of CLW and to prepare said spells.

Your idea is to hide your undead servitors from the horrified peasantry? Admirable to take such effort. It also helps keep everything calm and ordered.

rorek55 wrote:

I quite like the idea, however I forsee a confliction on the horizon. Eventually the paladin will pass a spellcraft or perception check...

I guess in the end its up to the players. (all made characters, the cleric knew their would be a paladin, but I don't think he wants to cause any disruption.

would you, as players see a way to make this work IC?

Again, while many Paladins probably have no love for, or cause for love for, the undead, they are not obligated to destroy every last one they see, because that is not what being a paladin is about. Nothing in your text spells out something that should be cause for conflict between you two, so what it comes down to is the individual characters, their traits and their personalities. Since you're both lawful, perhaps you'll find common ground, even friendship, in your stance on certain matters, societal or otherwise. Maybe not.

The only thing I can see being cause for conflict, is that your character has an uncaring view of life. The ambiguity of that statement leaves me wondering what that means and what he'll justify doing, which could potentially bring him at odds with the paladin.

Other than that, no problem whatsoever. Get in there and make a friend.

-Nearyn


the first time the paladin tries to Lay on Hands or channel to Heal your butler who may get hurt in battle, you will probably be smote and die.


...umm, am i the only one to bring up the detect evil at will ability?
how would you disguise yourself and the undead from that? remmebr that clerics have a stroneger then general calsses aura. and evil clerics (ill gues even more if you have evil domain but not a lot less if it is undead)

true, some paladin's orders do not have distroy all udnead on sight(some do. check the paladin's code at gods of the inner sea book.)
but a paladin is still at a problem adventuring with someone who is evil.
he doesn't have to destroy you and your abomination but he will have more then a bit of truble accepting you as part of his team.

one of the only ways for yo uboth to journy together is if he is under contract to protcet you, or you are his "captive" (and keep yelling "stop opression my culture etc etc")


Really, Asmodeus the Devil himself can have civilized interactions with good deities such as Shelyn and Iomedae even if they view him with contempt but the paladin must smite at the slightest sign of evil? I don't imagine that the paladin and cleric can get along all that easily but as long as the cleric doesn't give the paladin a reason there should be opportunity for cooperation.

I suppose not much can be done to protect the undead minions but I have to say if the paladin attacked the cleric because he was evil and no other reason and there was no evidence that the cleric was actually harming people, depending on the deity I would possibly have the paladin fall.

In the balance of things I would expect a pharismin of any sort to have more problems with the necromancer than a paladin.


do notice. i never said taht he has to attack the cleric for being evil. but he's code of conduct would most likely prevent him frmo coporating with evil characters. then again. if he is a paladin of say,Shelyn he can allways say he's trying to find the bueaty in the cleric and try to convurt him so that is a good reason to travel to gether.


And if it's a paladin of Sarenrae there would probably be long sermons regarding the error of the cleric's ways, though I will concede that doesn't offer any respite for the undead that the cleric raises.

And really for most paladins their code of conduct would prevent them from cooperating with the cleric towards evil ends but refusing to work with the cleric on any and every matter is in no way necessitated.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

It is usually just going to cause conflict and frankly not the best way to start a game.

But well guessing you are still going to play your evil cleric...so guess have fun, I suppose, personally wouldn't do it.


Conflict can be fun and interesting but you really have to be with the right people to do it. I remember a recent PFS game where the Sovereign Court members were having a blast undermining the concepts of democracy and freedom that the Liberty's Edge and Silver Crusade members held in high esteem. At a certain point I asked if should tone my character down because we were spending a good bit of time arguing politics and the person playing the Liberty's Edge character told me that it wasn't often that he found a group where he could have this much fun with his character arguing the entire time. It's when people start taking the arguments personally and begin attributing the inane actions and statements that are made to the players and not the characters that problems start to arise.


Why not just play LN? Honestly, your character sounds like he LN to begin with anyway, and that way you get out of a whole deal of trouble off the bat.

LE = possibly okay, paladin could maybe ignore it for the greater good

Undead = possibly okay, paladin could maybe ignore it for the greater good

Evil AND undead = one hair away from a smiting.

It sounds like the undead thing is more important to your backstory. Compromise and drop the evil thing.


zza ni wrote:
but he's code of conduct would most likely prevent him frmo coporating with evil characters.

Be careful with taking what you read from the PFSRD at face value. They have an error on their paladin page, whereby the Associates part of the paladin class is written as if it was part of the Paladin code of conduct. Do not mistake this for fact- it is not. A paladin can travel with as many evil people as he will, cooperate with as many evil people as he will, and live among as many people as he will. It is NOT against his code of conduct.

The paladin Code of Conduct and the paladin Associates are two seperate entities in the paladin class write-up. This can be seen in the Core Rulebook and on the PRD.

Looking at these two, you can see that Associates is no more a part of the Code of Conduct, than Code of Conduct is part of Holy Champion. As such, the player, or any paladin for that matter, is under no obligation to not make company with people of evil alignment. Although there's a suggestion about seeking atonement if you do it for too long, but that is roleplaying and best left in the hands of the paladin players. The only hard and fast rule to be taken from Associates is that a paladin may not have followers, cohorts and henchmen, that are not Lawful Good.

I'm just saying this to inform you that Associates is not a part of the Code of Conduct, and I'm pointing it out because the SRDs typography makes it seem like it is. And many people take this misinformed opinion with them into discussions and spread it. I've written to the folks who run the PFSRD in the past, requesting they correct it, but they've ignored me thus far.

Anyway, now you know :)

-Nearyn


Just don't. Don't. Not worth it. Save the character till a later game where you can play LE.

I'm also thinking about building a necromancer, a lawful evil inquisitor and an assassin. But I'm not doing it, because there is the paladin and the LG-NG cleric in the party.

To ever enter a not all evil party with an evil character isn't something that should be done lightly, just like joining in with a none-evil character in an all evil party.
YOU need to know what you're doing and YOU need to find a waterproof way of fitting into the party without bothering the rest.

Necromancer: Hi, I know I'm doing some bad s~!#, but I can be nice too!
Any good aligned character: Okay, how about you take the first step and stop your walking corpses? I'm not okay with this.
Necromancer: But... But that's the only power I have... How am I supposed to be of any use to you then?
Any good aligned character: Well, if the only thing you can do is evil, then I don't need you.
The rest of the party will do the smart thing and stick with their friend instead of sticking out for the evil guy with walking corpses.


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The only reason to try this is because you know it will end in disaster.

Silver Crusade

p-sto wrote:
I think something that a lot of people then to look over in Pathfinder is the fact that good and evil are not as dramatically opposed in Golarion are they are in a number of other settings. As suggested earlier good and evil people work together some times and this cooperation goes all the way up to the gods. It's not so much that the paladin and cleric would necessarily be mortal enemies but they may a good part of the time be disgusted but each other's conduct and personal views.

To give the most shining and extreme examples of this in action in Golarion canon:

Special Occasion: Sarenrae and Asmodeus, along with almost every other god, teamed up to stop and imprison Rovagug.

Regularly Happening: Angels, devils, and demons work together to protect newly dead souls from the predations of daemons.

That said, it still takes a lot of work and good faith to make character combinations like that paladin and LE necromancer work.


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rorek55 wrote:
...the cleric knew their would be a paladin, but I don't think he wants to cause any disruption...

That sets off my BS detector. Ain't buyin' it.

Don't play a necromancer when you know there's going to be a paladin in the group. That's just childish.

Scarab Sages

Yes, it can work. Talk to the Paladin player OOC, and work with the DM to allow the group to function as a whole. There have been PLENTY of situations where my character completely disagreed with, and in fact opposed, the moral actions of the group, but I set it aside because I wanted the group to be happy, and to have fun. You and the paladin player need to do the same thing: You can disagree all you want in-game, and his character may even despise you, but fundamentally the game is about playing nice with each other, so you two need to make it work.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Jaelithe wrote:
rorek55 wrote:
...the cleric knew their would be a paladin, but I don't think he wants to cause any disruption...

That sets off my BS detector. Ain't buyin' it.

Don't play a necromancer when you know there's going to be a paladin in the group. That's just childish.

I agree 100%. The cleric is looking for a disruption. And he'll find it, I'd imagine.

Silver Crusade

Along those lines, both characters need to be able to be played as intended.

I can say that one of the most frustrating things about playing with an antagonizing party member is wanting to play a good character and having to play them as ineffectual at actually being good in order to maintain group cohesion.

As said, it's going to take some in-depth OOC discussion if this is going to have a chance of being fun for all involved.


As Nearyn has said, there's nothing that makes it impossible by-rules.

If the Cleric wants to do this, he, the Paladin player, and the GM need to have a talk together to make sure it's okay.

And then he and the Paladin will eventually need to have an in-character talk. Probably the first time the Paladin casts Detect Evil.


Can your campaign survive having a active necromancer, dragging around undead, if the answer is yes then i Think the paladin May as well. Unless the World they travel in dont mind undead making or no one in the World have sense motive and perception i Think it is Best not to try it. If you have spend time preparing the game and want it to succed.
I am currently playing a GL character in a group where the leaser is LE it works very well but he is not doing kliché evil wizard stuff.

Silver Crusade

just a note, the cleric doesn't want a "horde" he plans to have 2-3 around. (like a mini party) and thats it.


Either you or the paladin's player should play a different character (assuming that the rest of the party is non-good and non-evil).


rorek55 wrote:
just a note, the cleric doesn't want a "horde" he plans to have 2-3 around. (like a mini party) and thats it.

Yes because creating only two or three undead to serve him, rather than 20 or 30, is something with which the paladin should probably be OK. I mean, come on ... it's only a couple or a few mockeries of life, right?

[Rolls eyes.]


rorek55 wrote:
just a note, the cleric doesn't want a "horde" he plans to have 2-3 around. (like a mini party) and thats it.

My point was about. If undead creation and use is ok in a Way that disguise skill Can fix it then a paladin is not gonna work in that game. And if not the the cleric PC gatta go.

And one undead or a army is equally evil and problematic in most gaming worlds.


Quatar wrote:
ExiledMimic wrote:

This depends on several factors. I've played so many paladins in various campaigns that it's bar - none my favorite class of all time. Firstly check with the paladin player about their code. Some gods are able to give Paladins some wiggle room on how they are allowed to handle a situation like that.

The half orc archetype (Redeemer) is made for situations like this. It allows the Paladin to travel with any evil creature so long as the Paladin can justify their ability to be redeemed.

Secondly to this any Paladin may travel with an evil creature so long as their purpose aligns. If you both want to end an event that could wipe out life on the planet the Paladin is allowed to work with you so long as the common interest exists and the two of you come to terms on behavior.

Now if your GM is more liberal I suggest the 2nd Ed splat of "Ex-Patriot" for the Paladin. Basically the Paladin gives up all caring for the mortal laws of man and follows only his God's law. So the Paladin can ignore laws and church edicts (only the GOD can dictate to the Paladin) that prevent his actions or associates.

You may also want to look into a way to appear lawful neutral on the regular. It helps. Also makes the whole "I use undead to better understand the nature of life" jive sound less tyrant - esque. The Paladin can give MUCH wider space to LN.

Hope that helps!

I don't know, a lot of your ideas seem to center around "The paladin could...". Honestly, in this case, I don't think the Paladin should have to do anything to accomodate that concept.

The cleric player knew there would be a Paladin, and still he made an evil necromancer.

I'm not the hugest fans of Paladins, but in this case, I don't see how the burden of making this work should be on the paladin's shoulders by adjusting his code, picking some weird 2nd ed thing or just playing dumb and never noticing.

Honestly if you got a weird gut feeling already, so that you have to ask "Does this work in the long run?", the answer is...

Sadly I have way more experience as the Paladin in this situation. So my advice will inevitably skew that direction. But depending on God's worshipped (Lawful Neutral) they could both be of the same god. Which pumps breaks. But beyond that I think popcorn and coke may be needed inside the second session.


Redeemer archetype paladin says raise me a fearful mount such that I may ride down evil....

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
p-sto wrote:

Really, Asmodeus the Devil himself can have civilized interactions with good deities such as Shelyn and Iomedae even if they view him with contempt but the paladin must smite at the slightest sign of evil? I don't imagine that the paladin and cleric can get along all that easily but as long as the cleric doesn't give the paladin a reason there should be opportunity for cooperation.

The rules are different for gods, because they are quite literally beyond mortal definition. The interactions between the CLERICS of such dieties are a whole different matter. Shelyn and Iomedan clerics barely see eye to eye on the greater goal of good, the latter feeling the former soft and removed from the realities of the frontline fight, whereas the former feels the latter has forgotten what she's fighting for.

Meanwhile the cleric of Asmodeus works on envisaging a power structure with him at the top and the latter two subservient to his lord's rules and strictures. He won't hesitate the least to eliminate one or enslave the other if it moves his plans forward.

On the other hand, the Paladin who smites without thinking, can look forward to a very short career.

Silver Crusade

LazarX wrote:
Shelyn and Iomedan clerics barely see eye to eye on the greater goal of good, the latter feeling the former soft and removed from the realities of the frontline fight, whereas the former feels the latter has forgotten what she's fighting for.

Man my experiences in Wrath of the Righteous exist in a completely different galaxy from that assumption.

Wrath of the Righteous:
Between two paladins and a cleric of Iomedae, all three have been incredibly grateful for the cleric of Shelyn grounding them and righting their courses in a number of ways. There's a ton of mutually appreciative cooperation going back and forth between them.

(we certainly get along with him better than we do with a few certain alleged members of our own clergy)

Sovereign Court

It will definitely work!.....If you kill the Paladin and reanimate him/her as undead....sure!


Nearyn wrote:
So far, there is no problem. Undead are not always evil, and the undead and their existence is not something the Paladin is required to oppose or fight.

Completely untrue, in the Golarion setting at least. Create Undead binds a soul to a corpse against its will, disallowing it to pass on to the afterlife. Furthermore, it is unable to pass through the River of Souls; if Pharasma runs out of souls to relegate then Groetus brings about the end of the world.

There can be settings where undead are not necessarily evil, but Golarion is definitely not one of them.

Grand Lodge

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Once the paladin knows your evil be prepared to die and party conflict to happen.

I tend to dislike players who knowingly plays evil with a paladin in the party. They are wanting conflict. It can not work for long.


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Arachnofiend wrote:
Nearyn wrote:
So far, there is no problem. Undead are not always evil, and the undead and their existence is not something the Paladin is required to oppose or fight.

Completely untrue, in the Golarion setting at least. Create Undead binds a soul to a corpse against its will, disallowing it to pass on to the afterlife. Furthermore, it is unable to pass through the River of Souls; if Pharasma runs out of souls to relegate then Groetus brings about the end of the world.

There can be settings where undead are not necessarily evil, but Golarion is definitely not one of them.

Not completely. Even Blood of the Night says neutral vampires exist. They're simply rare. Every race has its outliers. But, they're rare enough that there might only be one out of an entire AP. If it's a homebrew adventure in Golarion, there's sufficient license to include however many you want. This doesn't, though, remove the evil descriptor from the undead creation spells. Those are still evil deeds.


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Arachnofiend wrote:
Completely untrue, in the Golarion setting at least.

You are misinformed. You may know of a setting where all undead are evil, but it is not Golarion. Also, do note that I disclaimered my initial post by saying I was assuming Core only with the exceptions stated by the OP.

Let me also take this time to inform you of another thing that is not 'completely untrue' - the only type of creature in the setting that has its alignment set in stone, weirdly enough, is animals. Animals are explicitly stated to be "always neutral", an absolutist statement you will not find in any other type of creature published for the setting. Yet :D

Arachnofiend wrote:
Create Undead binds a soul to a corpse against its will, disallowing it to pass on to the afterlife. Furthermore, it is unable to pass through the River of Souls; if Pharasma runs out of souls to relegate then Groetus brings about the end of the world.

Careful with mistaking your opinion for fact. Also be careful with mistaking optional, setting-specific books with Core RAW. As I stated, I'm talking core, and by core RAW Create undead does no such thing.

Create undead wrote:
A much more potent spell than animate dead, this evil spell allows you to infuse a dead body with negative energy to create more powerful sorts of undead: ghouls, ghasts, mummies, and mohrgs. The type or types of undead you can create are based on your caster level, as shown on the table below.

"allows you to infuse a dead body with negative energy"

Whatever you may have picked off some peripheral material, I don't think it wise to assume it applies to the setting the OP is playing in. It may, but in that case, his GM probably has it well in hand.

Arachnofiend wrote:
There can be settings where undead are not necessarily evil, but Golarion is definitely not one of them.

Ironically, this is "completely untrue". But you've already been informed of that earlier in my post, and by Buri Reborn, for that matter.

-Nearyn


Just tell the player up front, and see if you can work around it, because if he finds out otherwise those undead may become destroyed. If he then finds out you are evil it will cause other problems.

He can work with evil people for as long as it is necessary, but if there is a pause in adventuring he has no reason to continue hanging around you as if you are buddies, and he could try to recruit someone with a similar skillset if when something happens that calls the group together again. He might even try to recruit someone while you are together just so he can have a reason to not adventure with you.

Shadow Lodge

Something else to keep in mind is that both characters have a Code of Conduct they are mechanically obligated to follow, not just the Paladin.

An Evil Cleric, by necessity, (outside of just raising Undead), is going to have to do some evil things to placate their deity. Even if the deity is not Evil, (LN for instance), if its one that allows the Undead Lord, that pretty much assumes its a dark, evil, corrupt faith and that said Cleric is going to NEED to remain non-good. Unless you (DM) intend to hand wave one's Code or the other, it looks like the situation is just asking for trouble when one character or the other must act in a way that makes the other a combatant enemy or loose their class abilities.

Secondly, what Paladin would risk their own purity traveling with an obvious corrupting evil influence. Redemption or not. That might work for a level or two, but if its pretty clear the priest of evil is not going to turn away from the dark side, the possibility for redemption has expired. It would be a rare case otherwise, but being that booth characters know for a fact that the other receives theirs by their faith, morality, and actions, there isn't a realistic chance for even a deception on that end.

If you want to do it, or let them do it, I personally would make sure to speak to both of the players about it first, unless your world has special rules or something, and make it perfectly clear, especially to the Cleric, that they are going to have to give and make things work, and that means long term. Most of the time, it seems everyone thinks its the paladin's job to find a way for the group to function. Its not.


http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pbgn&page=2?Why-are-undead-always-evil#52

Undead aren't always evil, but there aren't very many options as a player to have non-evil undead companions, especially as a horde cleric.

Zombies and Skeletons are "Always neutral evil" and their alignment is as absolute as animal alignments are.

As for Vampires, they are also "Any evil". I don't know what Blood of the Night is talking about, but it's probably just wrong. Vampires are also not normally eligible targets for Atonement either. It's not mind-affecting so also cannot benefit from Threnodic Spell.

I'm assuming Blood of the Night is just referencing rule 0 in making non-evil vampires for story reasons. From a purely mechanical standpoint there are no options for PCs to create non-evil vampire companions.

Ghosts are the only undead that spring to mind that aren't mandatory evil.


Don't go into Power Dome A wrote:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pbgn&page=2?Why-are-undead-always-evil#52

Undead aren't always evil, but there aren't very many options as a player to have non-evil undead companions, especially as a horde cleric.

Zombies and Skeletons are "Always neutral evil" and their alignment is as absolute as animal alignments are.

As for Vampires, they are also "Any evil". I don't know what Blood of the Night is talking about, but it's probably just wrong. Vampires are also not normally eligible targets for Atonement either. It's not mind-affecting so also cannot benefit from Threnodic Spell.

I'm assuming Blood of the Night is just referencing rule 0 in making non-evil vampires for story reasons. From a purely mechanical standpoint there are no options for PCs to create non-evil vampire companions.

Ghosts are the only undead that spring to mind that aren't mandatory evil.

Pathfinder is the exact setting where whenever you hear interviews from the writers, both payroll and freelancers, they INSIST that nothing is just ALWAYS evil. Your enemy manuals will say Evil, your flavor will say Evil, but they are so repetitive on this idea that no one must be evil (or good) that it's a dogma.

So citing the monster manual is true. For purposes of what you fight it will most likely be evil. This is because they assume you are part of the Pathfinder Society and that you are playing good or neutral PCs. But if you take into consideration that even Erik Mona and James Jacobs have said that alignment is not an absolute, then it's as close to canon as you can get without a table.


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And please remember that the paladin dosent need to be alone with this attitude in most fantasy worlds not wanting to assosiate with a known necromancer is common sense. I dont say that is the case here but in most fantasy stories, it is.

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