So, I know that there has been a lot of guides, and threads for how good or bad a White Haired Witch is and how to play them. Personally, I think they are a really cool archetype to multi-class with. I've read a few of the alternate ways, like using the Prehensile Hair Hex or Magus for the Hex, but it didn't feel totally right to me. Originally, I was going to cross class with Monk, but after mapping out the levels, I've started to wonder if Brawler might be a better route. I don't think I would use one of the Brawler archetypes, but definitely suggest them since I'm pretty new and don't always see the benefits with them. With the regular Brawler, I would get better hit points, a full BAB, and access to armor. Also, I could use Martial Flexibility to have Improved Grapple or even Improved Trip instead of having to use a feat slot for it, though I am losing one bonus feat with not going the Monk route. A little worse on the saves and the little spell casting I would have would take a hit too, but with only 4 planned levels of White Haired Witch, I don't think I'm losing out on that much. I'm planning to use this in PFS if matters.
So here is the build I'm considering:
Human (I haven't gotten the stats down right just yet, what I would like is Str 13 or near it, Dex 18, and Int 16 for the numbers listed later.)
Traits: Serpinite Squeeze and Magic Knack
Familiar : King Crab
WHW 1 - Weapon Finess and Dodge
WHW 2
Brawler 1 - Weapon Focus (Hair)
Brawler 2 - Feral Weapon Training
Brawler 3
Brawler 4 - Final Embrace
WHW 3
WHW 4
Brawler 5 - Improved Natural Attack
the rest going Brawler.
My monk route was pretty much similar, just Feral Training at Monk 1 and Improved Grapple at Monk 2.
Since I don't think I'll be able to make a good chart on here, the BAB only has two bumps from being full, the first level and the 3rd White Haired Witch level. At level 9, my CMB is +17, which I'm not sure is on par for the level. I'm sure I can get it higher with items that I don't know about.
A few questions though. Can someone link me the errata about making the WHW special abilities swift actions instead of free? I've been hunting for it and can't find it, and would like to have it. With that, does that mean, if she hits, then she uses her swift to grapple and next turn maintain grapple and swift to constrict? Would Final Embrace make the constricts free actions due to the constrict text? So lemme hear it, did I mess up somewhere?
Thank you for all advice and comments!
You could grab strangler brawler... But then you'd have to dip monk for IUS and grapple. Still not a bad choice tho.
Instead of dodge, you could take coordinated maneuvers and have your familiar take the same feat to get a +2 your grapple checks.
Thanks for the replies. I definitely like both ideas. I might do two levels of Monk to get the feats and Evasion. So it would be like:
WHW/WHW/Monk/Monk/Strangler/Strangler/WHW/WHW/Strangler on out.
About Coordinated Maneuvers, how does that work with the familiar? And really, I didn't even know a familiar could take a feat that early?
Thank you for the information though. Definitely some good ideas.
Actually, I don't think the strangler isn't that great. Yeah, you get the precision damage but without having the unarmed strike, the character won't have the progressive unarmed damage, so not sure if its worth it.
I still can't find the rules on familiars getting feats.
Also, with the errata that makes the grapple a swift action, would the constrict still be a free action? Or would I have to maintain grapple and constrict the next turn?
Crabs as a creature don't have a feat because they are vermin, when the become a beast by being a familiar they get one.
Strangler I think is cool, 2d6 sneak at 2nd. If you add sap adept, you go to 4d6 every grapple check. That's pretty good bonus damage.
Yeah, I'm starting to like the Strangler more and more with thinking about the damage a bit more. I'm probably going with the plan above. The Sap Adept feat just makes it hilarious, though guess nonlethal damage against creatures is just as good as regular. Would that damage trigger with maintain grapple check and move to pin checks since that is two different grapple checks to my understanding?
White Haired Witch sucks. Even more so as a dip.
Maybe just Scarred Witch Doctor/Brawler, with the Prehensile Hair Hex.
I'm under the impression that the only thing WHW is great as is being a dip. Giving a free natural attack that's got a grab on it (+ some spells, and a familiar) is quite worth a level for some builds.
But so goofy. And I can't do Scarred Witch Doctor in PFS. And wasn't there something about secondary natural attacks taking a pretty significant minus, -5?
blackbloodtroll wrote: White Haired Witch sucks. Even more so as a dip.
Maybe just Scarred Witch Doctor/Brawler, with the Prehensile Hair Hex.
A White Haired Witch/Brawler gestalt would be pretty cool, though. Perfect saves. Feral Combat Training and murder things at a distance with your hair for days. (Hair is damage is based on unarmed strike damage, you can use your hair as unarmed strikes for style feats, etc.)
Kharis_Torriku wrote: But so goofy. And I can't do Scarred Witch Doctor in PFS. And wasn't there something about secondary natural attacks taking a pretty significant minus, -5? Only until you get multi-attack, and a build dipping for it would get that.
Or it'd be a build with feral combat training, possibly flurrying with it as your main weapon.
LoneKnave wrote: Only until you get multi-attack, and a build dipping for it would get that.
Or it'd be a build with feral combat training, possibly flurrying with it as your main weapon.
Yeah, I was thinking about flurrying at first, but since the grapple is a swift action, I didn't think about going that route anymore and just go for the hit/grab/strangler and constrict damage.
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blackbloodtroll wrote: White Haired Witch sucks. Even more so as a dip.
I don't agree.
I believe the White Haired Witch can be made very powerful, but it needs an elaborate build with other classes.
On the character the thread is about-
1 I suggest Combat Reflexes and Monastic Legacy as you now want monk levels. The first is an absolute must, those AoO are great.
2 Consider Boar Style, Snapping Turtle Style and Snapping Turtle Clutch.
3 Consider 8 levels of WHW. What you get is well worth it imho.
4 You might even want levels in Arcane Trickster, it gives you spell casting and sneak attack= strangling damage.
Kharis_Torriku wrote: LoneKnave wrote: Only until you get multi-attack, and a build dipping for it would get that.
Or it'd be a build with feral combat training, possibly flurrying with it as your main weapon.
Yeah, I was thinking about flurrying at first, but since the grapple is a swift action, I didn't think about going that route anymore and just go for the hit/grab/strangler and constrict damage. The grapple is a free action. The constrict is swift (but you can just grab the final embrace feat later on).
For the WHW/arcane trickster build (this actually could be a thing), you could see if your DM allows strangler and snakebite striker. You could then take AT with losing only 1 caster level.
LoneKnave wrote:
The grapple is a free action. The constrict is swift (but you can just grab the final embrace feat later on).
For the WHW/arcane trickster build (this actually could be a thing), you could see if your DM allows strangler and snakebite striker. You could then take AT with losing only 1 caster level.
Can you link me this? I keep reading and hearing different things each time as to if the grapple and/or constrict is a swift or free action? I really would like to have a paper answer with me. Joynt Jezebel wrote:
I don't agree.
I believe the White Haired Witch can be made very powerful, but it needs an elaborate build with other classes.
On the character the thread is about-
1 I suggest Combat Reflexes and Monastic Legacy as you now want monk levels. The first is an absolute must, those AoO are great.
2 Consider Boar Style, Snapping Turtle Style and Snapping Turtle Clutch.
3 Consider 8 levels of WHW. What you get is well worth it imho.
4 You might even want levels in Arcane Trickster, it gives you spell casting and sneak attack= strangling damage.
That is a lot to think about. So many feats and not enough slots for them all!
1.) I definitely think I'm gonna go with Combat Reflexes instead of Dodge. At least with reach, it will be really useful and seems really good with Snapping Turtle Clutch.
2.) I was considering Boar Style before when I was figuring flurrying would be really good, and if the grapple is a free action instead of swift, I'm gonna definitely reconsider it.
3.) I unfortunately don't think I get that many levels in PFS to pull that off.
4.) I haven't even thought about that and will have to look it over and figure it all in.
I don't think I want to do more Monk levels beyond 2 due to limits and can't get Still Mind for Monastic Legacy. I was figuring Monk's Robes and Improved Natural Attack to get my die damage up.
As of right now, I think my build isL
WHW - Weapon Finess, Combat Reflexes
WHW
Monk - Weapon Focus, Feral Weapon Training
Monk - Improved Grapple
Strangler
Strangler - Final Embrace, (Sap Adept or Snapping Turtle Style)
WHW
WHW
Strangler - (Improved Natural Attack or Snapping Turtle Clutch.)
Strangler on out.
I think I'm solid on the first 5 levels but after that, not sure where to go with the feats. Gonna have to sit down and do some possibilities and such.
Thank you for the suggestions, a lot I didn't even know about. Keep them coming!
Kharis- Sorry I don't have time to go through things in detail at the moment.
The fact you can never have enough feats is one of the painful things with WHW characters.
Here is the list of feats my WHW intends to take-
Feats-
lvl 9 Level Based Feat Boar Style
lvl 10 EK level 1 Ability focus Grab
Lvl 11 Level based Feat-Final Embrace Horror BaB +6
Lvl 11Monk lvl 2 feat- Grapple Greater BaB +6
Lvl 13 Level based Feat Final Embrace Master
Lvl 15 Level based Feat Rapid Grappler BaB +9 swift action to maintain grab
Lvl 17 level based feat Body Shield EK 5
Lvl 19 level based feat Improved Critical Hair
lvl 19 EK level 9 Critical Focus
Lvl 20 Spell Critical [Eldritch Knight capstone, not a feat]
You can't just copy this, but it should give you some ideas of what you need, without sitting going through all the combat feats like I did.
Luck.
Kharis- I was just looking at Strangler.
While I have not had the time to go through everything in detail, it seems there is quite a lot of duplication of what you get as a White Haired Witch.
Unless I am missing something, the aim is better achieved without Strangler levels.
Joynt Jezebel wrote: Kharis- I was just looking at Strangler.
While I have not had the time to go through everything in detail, it seems there is quite a lot of duplication of what you get as a White Haired Witch.
Unless I am missing something, the aim is better achieved without Strangler levels.
Sooooo first of all, I thought you got feats every 3 levels like in 3.5 D&D. That might shake things up a bit for me.
As for the Strangler vs Monk vs other things to level into. I really like the Martial Flexibility of Bralwer in general and Strangler gives me the +2d6 damage early on. Also, I get more bonus feats from taking levels in Strangler cause of Brawler and small additional boosts to grappling from Maneuver Training.
I think I am going to do that third level of Monk and get Monastic Legacy to bring my die damage up on the attack. I also might do the 5th level of WHW to pick up the 3rd level spell.
I really haven't even begun to look into Prestige classes, I glanced them over and didn't really get the benefit of Eldrich Knight.
So now I think it is:
WHW - Weapon Finess, Combat Reflexes
WHW
MONK - Weapon Focus, FWT
MONK - Improved Grapple
STRANGLER - Snapping Turtle Style
STRANGLER - Final Embrace
WHW - Snapping Turtle Clutch
WHW -
MONK - Monastic Legacy
WHW -
STRANGLER - Improved Natural Attack
STRANGLER on out
Gonna have to keep thinking on this some more.
I have rather a lot to say and I already lost all my typing once. :(
It may take more than one post.
First, a guide I am using, but changing, can be found at- https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dvDRSXWqnO4CebgMmD8P-nU94wXL_2qWE3n5TTF TzOQ/edit?pli=1
Useful but contains some significant errors.
Kharis_Torriku wrote:
Sooooo first of all, I thought you got feats every 3 levels like in 3.5 D&D. That might shake things up a bit for me.
Its one every odd level. Rejoice, you need every feat you can get.
Kharis_Torriku wrote: As for the Strangler vs Monk vs other things to level into. I really like the Martial Flexibility of Bralwer in general and Strangler gives me the +2d6 damage early on. Also, I get more bonus feats from taking levels in Strangler cause of Brawler and small additional boosts to grappling from Maneuver Training. I make no claim to be a Pathfinder expert generally. There seemed to be duplication to me.
Kharis_Torriku wrote: I think I am going to do that third level of Monk and get Monastic Legacy to bring my die damage up on the attack. I also might do the 5th level of WHW to pick up the 3rd level spell. Look at the class features.
Monk 4 gives you some good stuff too.
More importantly, WHW 8 gives you 2 more very useful hair abilities and another 5 feet of hair reach. And spells of course. That is what I am taking and I recommend it.
Kharis_Torriku wrote: I really haven't even begun to look into Prestige classes, I glanced them over and didn't really get the benefit of Eldrich Knight.
Eldrich Knight [EK] has a reputation as being horrid and useless.
I suggest you look at the PrC and note the entry requirements.
I will eventually take all 10 levels in this, those 10 levels give you-
1 9 caster levels
2 +10 BaB
3 D10 for HPs, important as my character is way too squishy to do lots of melee combat.
4 3 Combat feats
5 The PrC capstone ability.
Of these, 5 is good but not essential. 1 to 4 are lots and lots of what you need. I don't think there is any way of getting so much of what is needed in 10 levels, at least for my build.
Your build will certainly have advantages over mine. Its BaB will be better, mine gets to 15 at lvl 20, yours will be better. Also you get earlier access to some of the most important feats that require BaB 6, which I don't get until lvl 11.
The disads if you follow what you have indicated, are I think my build will have-
1 CL 17 as opposed to 5 [not a subtle difference]
2 The WHW level 6 and 8 abilities
3 5 feet more reach with hair.
These are all big deals.
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