You can't imagine the old, physically weak, venerable master master kicking the crap out of the strong young student because the master uses precise strikes and knows how to move better?I can easily imagine it, but I would assume in game terms the master is much higher level than the student.
The problem is not that the lower strength can't be compensated for, it's that it has no impact at all. If you had to take the -2 that comes with a Strength of 7, but could still add your dexterity bonus, that would allow effective agile fighters but discourage stat dumping.
I don't think Paizo as a company cares about stat dumping. By making point buy the default method for their products it sorta encourages it.
I am one of the few who like it the way it is. I was initially against it, but having seen my wife play two different dex builds it seems about where it should be.
Her first dex build is a Swashbuckler with 13 str and 16 dex. Power Attack, Weapon Focus Rapier, Weapon Specialization Rapier and at 5th she will finally take Fencing Grace. She is about on par with my reach/natural attacks Bloodrager who is a str build, and seeing as both characters are Kitsune I think it would compete with but not overwhlem most str builds.
Her second dex character is of the dreaded 7 str variety with a 20 dex on a Kensai Magus. This character is always asking people to carry things for her. She doesn't wear armor or own anything heavier than a spellbook. This is about the only build that won't really suffer from a 7 str. She just hit second level and I haven't tabled with her since then, but she says it is fun and powerful.
CHA
the hidden gem
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Really? You can't imagine the old, physically weak, venerable master master kicking the crap out of the strong young student
Had it done to me. More than a few times. That's a difference in fighting skill, not dexterity. I always lost (swiftly, at that) because of my vast inferiority in skill and experience. Sure, I was stronger and faster, but against such a huge gulf of skill it does not matter. The master was strong enough and fast enough for the techniques to work. For just one example, my feints always failed while her feints always worked. For another, I'd always lose grappling contests. She still lives, and is a practicing 7th degree blackbelt who co-runs a large martial arts school.
Matthew Downie said it.
if you want to sell the reasons that your DM should include dex to damage, because you want to play a dex character, you're gonna have to make a sacrifice: if your intent is to optimize a dex build, you'll have to convince him not that dex dmg is equal or inferior to STR twohanders, but rather that both of them are at times op, but that you don't want to play a "support character" or backup skillkit character that is a liability in combat, and were wondering if you could play a duelist-style bard/rogue/whatever.
Sounds like your dm has had a bad experience in the past with a player who max optimized a dex killer, and decided then and there that he hated it. Not uncommon in PF and 3.5, that's why there are so many unique house rules out there, i'm certain (people fed up by getting outshined/people fed up by the divas with the powercharacters).
Problem is that as a player, you're sorta at their mercy. I happen to agree that dex dmg feats are viable and not more powerful than str - note that I didn't say that either can't be OP. When you have one player who hits for 25 dmg consistently twice a round (the 2 hd) standing next to a fencer, who hits for 6 damage, maybe 10 with a main guache followup that only hits from time to time, well... It's easy to think Dex needs a boost. But maybe we should take that big stick away from Otto McLotto, too.
Ultimately, that's up to the GM. PF and 3.5 is littered with balance issues that only the GM can choose to fix. My advice: ask nicely, and promise not to maximize. Pick some purely rp feats, if he allows deadly agility and finesse, with your other feats. And if he says no, play a Gunslinger with deadly aim. >:P
yep
Amusing. Effectively you're using three feats to learn how to stab someone with a longsword. I can see a weaponmaster now: Yes Jimmy, swords have pointy ends, but you can't use them to stab the other man. You have to wait until you reach 3rd level so then you can learn how to put the pointy end into the other man. How do you know if you've reached third level? A magic bell will appear above your character and lights will flash all around you, with a magic bubble of text above you saying you're 3rd level. The gods are indeed mysterious, Jimmy. Wait until you have to learn how to swing a weapon really hard. You'll have to wait until you're 4th level to do that!
Really? You can't imagine the old, physically weak, venerable master master kicking the crap out of the strong young studentHad it done to me. More than a few times. That's a difference in fighting skill, not dexterity. I always lost (swiftly, at that) because of my vast inferiority in skill and experience. Sure, I was stronger and faster, but against such a huge gulf of skill it does not matter. The master was strong enough and fast enough for the techniques to work. For just one example, my feints always failed while her feints always worked. For another, I'd always lose grappling contests. She still lives, and is a practicing 7th degree blackbelt who co-runs a large martial arts school.
Matthew Downie said it.
I read your previous post and it seems you have no problem with a slower and weaker person winning if they have skill. You just feel like a -7 in strength is too feeble to reliably win. Is that correct?
Charisma is great. It just sadly doesn't work well for melee characters. Cha to AC, saves, initiative, yada yada is all great when you have an offensive ability to grow off of it. I don't know of a consistent way to get Charisma to hit/damage in Pathfinder. Smite gets you part of the way there.
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Strength:
Carry Capacity*
Melee attacks rolls
Melee damage* (1.5x for Two-handed Weapons)
Combat Maneuver Bonus* (CMB)
Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD)
Climb
SwimDexterity (with a dex to damage build):
Melee attack rolls
Melee damage
Initiative modifier
Ranged attack rolls*
Armor Class*
Reflex save*
Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD)
Acrobatics
Disable Device
Escape Artist
Fly
Ride
Sleight of Hand
Stealth
Assorted SkillsMiscellaneous: Power Attack
Spending Extra Feats/Gold
Just because Dexterity can affect more subjects doesn't mean it's actually superior. You show me 10 gorillas, and I'll show you a single guy who has more capability than 10 gorillas. Let's give this a proper breakdown, shall we?
The first thing to note is that unlike Dexterity, Strength gives an increase to carrying capacity, and this scales up when this character gets magic items that increase Strength. You could argue the same for the Dexterity character, but he won't get the added increase to attack and damage to his main stat like the Strength guy would, plus he would have to invest extra things into carrying capacity in comparison, if he wants to be able to carry more stuff/use his equipment properly.
Additionally, most Strength builds are Two-handed, making their damage multiplier for their main stat higher per attack, equivalent to that of Two-Weapon Fighting (pre-Two-Weapon Rend, that is, but that is negated with a certain Fighter archetype). This benefit not only applies to their Strength modifier, but to Power Attack as well, something which, unless the Dexterity build has access to Piranha Strike from some softcover book, requires a decent enough Strength score to take to keep up with the damage. The Dexterity build, even with (at-best) Two-Weapon Fighting, won't be as accurate in both hitting consistency and damage consistency, since they will have less to-hit and damage benefits.
The Dexterity character's ability to lock down foes with Combat Maneuvers also goes down the drain, as their CMB turns into poop unless they invest yet another feat on top of something that already takes 30% of their feats, and their ability to negate these problems, should they be incurred on themselves, remain unchanged at best, or increased so slightly that the downgrade in CMB isn't worth the pay-off.
The factor that the Dexterity character can use his main stat to make attacks with ranged weapons are nice, but his damage rolls are still modified by Strength normally. So even if he can hit better with a ranged weapon, his damage, especially when faced with damage reduction, will be so low it'll be lucky to get through it by the mid-game unless he finds a way to apply Dexterity to damage rolls for ranged weapons as well.
Initiative poses the most beneficial of going Dexterity as far as Offensive Capabilities are concerned, as going first can certainly turn the tides (and is basically a sign of victory or defeat when PCs reach Rocket Tag levels). But assuming both sides get Improved Initiative and the Reactionary trait (believe me, most optimized martials value Initiative pretty highly), the Dexterity build is looking at being only 4 points higher (at best) on a given Initiative roll. Though this disparity increases as Mr. Strength and Mr. Dexterity gain levels, starting off, Mr. Dexterity can quite easily roll equal to or lower than Mr. Strength, meaning his Initiative increase via his main stat isn't a very significant thing.
So far, it appears Strength guy is making out, right? So we know Offensively speaking, Dexterity lacks, which makes sense, because they're so much more defensively powered, right?
Theoretically speaking, yes. But mechanically, it's not really worth the pay-out. When it comes to Armor Class, the factor that the Dexterity character has 20+ Dexterity (which is a +5 modifier) at the start strictly limits his choice of armor, due to one statistic: That's right, the Maximum Dexterity Bonus. So if Mr. Dexterity has a 20 Dexterity at level 1 (and yes, it's possible), if he takes an armor that has 4 or less MDB, he's actually losing AC in comparison to the guy who just buys the heaviest armor. Even if you get your full Dexterity bonus on your armor, depending on what you buy, Mr. Dexterity won't be winning out until you get to the extremely late game, where he will have a Dexterity Modifier of 11+, with a 1 AC piece of armor. Until then, it's an equal arms race with a slight difference in AC types; Mr. Dexterity will be superior in Touch AC, but lower in Flat-Footed AC. Mr. Strength will be inferior in Touch AC, but higher in Flat-Footed AC. This makes a difference when facing spellcasters, incorporeals, rogues/slayers/ninjas, and several others that affect these respective ACs, but that's really all it boils down to.
Saving throws is perhaps the biggest increase in comparison, but it's not a major gamechanger unless you're facing spellcasters who throw nothing but blast spells, and is only really a slap in the face if Mr. Dexterity is a class (or has a certain magic ring) that has Evasion. Most optimized casters don't particularly use blast spells unless they're clearing out an entire area of mooks with it, and are more about Battlefield Control, or the oh-so classic Save or Suck/Die/Kill your friends. Those spells either don't involve saving throws (this is the case for the former, usually), or involve a saving throw that Dexterity doesn't excel at (Fortitude sometimes, though mostly Will, the case for the latter). So they might be able to mitigate blast spells better, but I can assure you they will have the same problems with saving throws as any given two-bit Fighter.
As far as Skills are concerned, Swim and Climb are only relevant in the early levels, where you don't have magic readily available to transcend obstacles, or in areas where magic is cut-off (and you are forced to rely on physical means). Otherwise, your magic items or party Wizard will negate the need for those skills. (It's still handy to dip some points in these in case those circumstances arise.)
But the skills that Dexterity affects aren't much better. Take the scaling skills involved, which are Acrobatics, Stealth, Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand(, and to a lesser extent, Disable Device). Most of the time, these skills, unless exceptionally invested in, do not provide much helpful utility, both in-combat and out-of-combat; Acrobatics and Escape Artist, two of the most combat-useful skills in the game, are a culprit of disproportioned statistic scaling. Even with a few more points in Dexterity in comparison to Mr. Strength, Mr. Dexterity will only have a slightly better chance of succeeding at these skills versus a combat-trained CR-equivalent enemy, something that isn't worth writing home about. Stealth and Sleight of Hand are useful for out-of-combat subjects, but the former becomes difficult when we subscribe to the prospect of everyone and their grandma has maximum Perception ranks, and the latter requires points to spend in order to even use, something which not all Mr. Dexteritys can afford to do.
Some skills require you put points in them to even use, and the Fly skill, probably one of the most useful skills for melee combatants in the game, requires a regular means of Flying in order to put points into it; this doesn't make it more advantageous for Mr. Dexterity when he probably has the same problems that Mr. Strength has, which is obtaining a means to regularly fly in the first place.
Not only are skills, damage, etc. a problem for Mr. Dexterity, but also the means and access for which he gets his main stat to operate. Outside of the Slashing/Fencing Grace feats (which only realistically apply to 3 weapons, and count as yet another 10% of a given character's feat expenditures) and the Agile weapon property (which isn't even in a Hardcover product, costs enhancement bonuses, and only applies to Finnesseable Melee Weapons), his build availability is nowhere near as open as Mr. Strength, who could use any given Two-Handed Weapon, equip nearly any armor, and not have to worry about his weight limit or any of that mundane stuff.
So as you can clearly tell, Dexterity builds are fairly inoptimal, and barely viable currently. Even if they become more prevalent with splatbooks (and no, I'm not calling ACG a splatbook), it would at-best become a change of playstyle, since I highly doubt a given Dexterity build would outperform a given Strength build.
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Erhm, I believe you cannot wield a weapon in two-hands with Slashing Grace and still get Dex-to-damage. As far as I know, the only way to get Power Attack two-handed bonus with Dex to damage is Agile and even then, you cannot get 1.5 times Dex to damage.
You are correct you can't get 1.5 times your DEX but you still get your DEX (which is vastly superior to STR) and you can tank your STR making your DEX significantly higher. I'm not saying that it will be 1.5 times higher, but with the added benefits of DEX, it still closes the gap pretty well.
You are correct you can't get 1.5 times your DEX but you still get your DEX (which is vastly superior to STR) and you can tank your STR making your DEX significantly higher. I'm not saying that it will be 1.5 times higher, but with the added benefits of DEX, it still closes the gap pretty well.
Erhm, I believe you cannot wield a weapon in two-hands with Slashing Grace and still get Dex-to-damage. As far as I know, the only way to get Power Attack two-handed bonus with Dex to damage is Agile and even then, you cannot get 1.5 times Dex to damage.
Sure, but you can't get extra power attack damage with Dex to damage without using Agile on an Elven Curve Blade (or Aldori Dueling Sword held in two-hands). And Agile is worth about 1.5 to 2 feats (+1 from Weapon Focus, +.5 from half of Weapon Specialization because you could have a +1 enhancement bonus instead).
You are correct you can't get 1.5 times your DEX but you still get your DEX (which is vastly superior to STR) and you can tank your STR making your DEX significantly higher. I'm not saying that it will be 1.5 times higher, but with the added benefits of DEX, it still closes the gap pretty well.
Erhm, I believe you cannot wield a weapon in two-hands with Slashing Grace and still get Dex-to-damage. As far as I know, the only way to get Power Attack two-handed bonus with Dex to damage is Agile and even then, you cannot get 1.5 times Dex to damage.
Slashing Grace specifically only works when you wield your weapon one-handed. As Xethik states above, you can't get extra power attack bonuses and dexterity to damage unless you're using an agile weapon.
When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage.
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I read your previous post and it seems you have no problem with a slower and weaker person winning if they have skill. You just feel like a -7 in strength is too feeble to reliably win. Is that correct?
I feel that 7 STR should still be imposing penalties. That's barely strong enough to hold a sword without shaking. I'm 100% fine with DEX replacing STR for bonuses, but I feel like that low STR should impose the usual penalties. This is similar to requiring minimum 10 STR as prerequisite for DEX-to-Damage to work right, since optimizers would all take a 10 STR. There's no game-balance reason for this, so I actually approve of the current DEX-To-Damage rules, from a game design perspective. It just rubs me wrong.
It seems grossly unfair to quibble about such things, while the spellcasters stand on the side and crack jokes about those who like to hit things with pointy sticks.
also don't forget the str feat that gives you bonus to intimidation. Combined with just one other feat -what's it, intimidating killchoppy or something - your str character can lock down whole groups of enemies in LOS, leaving them shaken and therefore open to all kinds of exploits by the rest of the party. Str builds have a lot of options that become available (not the least of which are mobility style feats if you decide to throw just 3 points into dex, you can actually be more mobile than the Dex build dual wielders) when you have four or five feats to work with that their DEX counterparts don't. While reading this all, an idea came to mind of a barbarian/ intimidation/lunge/combat patrol/reach build that would really crush the life out of groups. 25' threatened radius? with just a couple of dex boots, this could do a lotta choppin.
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When you are adding cha to so many thing you can happily allow yourself to buy a big strength.
Nature mystery battle-Oracle using Noble Scion of War and Divine Protection, with Dual Talent Strength+Charisma. Now that's stat compression at it's finest: 16/18(+item), 7, 14, 10, 9, 16/18(+item).
As far as dex-to-damage goes...
Generic level 9 nodachi +3 with 24 strength, power attack: 5.5+3 +10STR +9PA = 27.5 damage.
Generic level 9 Agile curved blade +2 with 24 dexterity, power attack (still had to have 13STR): 5.5+2 +7DEX +9PA = 23.5 damage.
Generic level 9 scimitar/rapier +3 with 24 dexterity, power attack (still had to have 13STR): 3.5+ 7DEX +6PA = 19.5 damage.
Generic level 9 scimitar/rapier +3 with 24 dexterity, dumped strength so didn't qualify for power attack: 3.5+3 +7DEX = 13.5 damage (+3ab).
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Deadly Agility is better and more balanced.
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Where are the feats that allow STR to AC
Heavy armor proficiency.
When you are adding cha to so many thing you can happily allow yourself to buy a big strength.Nature mystery battle-Oracle using Noble Scion of War and Divine Protection, with Dual Talent Strength+Charisma. Now that's stat compression at it's finest: 16/18(+item), 7, 14, 10, 9, 16/18(+item).
As far as dex-to-damage goes...
Generic level 9 nodachi +3 with 24 strength, power attack: 5.5+3 +10STR +9PA = 27.5 damage.
Generic level 9 Agile curved blade +2 with 24 dexterity, power attack (still had to have 13STR): 5.5+2 +7DEX +9PA = 23.5 damage.
Generic level 9 scimitar/rapier +3 with 24 dexterity, power attack (still had to have 13STR): 3.5+ 7DEX +6PA = 19.5 damage.
Generic level 9 scimitar/rapier +3 with 24 dexterity, dumped strength so didn't qualify for power attack: 3.5+3 +7DEX = 13.5 damage (+3ab).
numbers. ^this is what i'm saying.
Beside that, is the fact that as a gm, I just won't allow players to tank stats. I know a lot of ppl don't even care about the encumbrance rules, but min/maxing's just cheesy, and I can't see anyone with cripplingly low strength would ever bother to learn to fight. I mean, did they one day just get tired of the bigger halflings making fun of him, so he stopped eating and learned kung-fu?
whatever the justification, I might not force small characters to beef their str up to 10, but if they're rocking an 8, I will force the -1 damage penalty on 'em from being unable to effectively punch through whatever they're swinging at. A str 2 fairy with some crazed dex 30 might be precise as hell, but all the speed in the world won't make his toothpick puncture platemail
When you are adding cha to so many thing you can happily allow yourself to buy a big strength.Nature mystery battle-Oracle using Noble Scion of War and Divine Protection, with Dual Talent Strength+Charisma. Now that's stat compression at it's finest: 16/18(+item), 7, 14, 10, 9, 16/18(+item).
As far as dex-to-damage goes...
Generic level 9 nodachi +3 with 24 strength, power attack: 5.5+3 +10STR +9PA = 27.5 damage.
Generic level 9 Agile curved blade +2 with 24 dexterity, power attack (still had to have 13STR): 5.5+2 +7DEX +9PA = 23.5 damage.
Generic level 9 scimitar/rapier +3 with 24 dexterity, power attack (still had to have 13STR): 3.5+ 7DEX +6PA = 19.5 damage.
Generic level 9 scimitar/rapier +3 with 24 dexterity, dumped strength so didn't qualify for power attack: 3.5+3 +7DEX = 13.5 damage (+3ab).
Pretty dope. I guess I should have clarified to say: Yeah to get all these nice things you best be a caster. Oracles in particular, but Paladins can get a lot of nice things with Charisma and just an Oracle dip.
That being said, I find that most other martial classes (Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian, Monk, and even Swashbuckler) get very little from Charisma and it is tough to get all the tasty bits into one nice package.
It's a sad state when I find pure martials more MAD than battle-casters.
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Just because Dexterity can affect more subjects doesn't mean it's actually superior. You show me 10 gorillas, and I'll show you a single guy who has more capability than 10 gorillas. Let's give this a proper breakdown, shall we?
Yes, let's.
The first thing to note is that unlike Dexterity, Strength gives an increase to carrying capacity, and this scales up when this character gets magic items that increase Strength.You could argue the same for the Dexterity character, but he won't get the added increase to attack and damage to his main stat like the Strength guy would, plus he would have to invest extra things into carrying capacity in comparison, if he wants to be able to carry more stuff/use his equipment properly.
Except that for 2000gp DEX guy buys a handy haversack and completely eliminates this advantage of STR.
Additionally, most Strength builds are Two-handed, making their damage multiplier for their main stat higher per attack, equivalent to that of Two-Weapon Fighting (pre-Two-Weapon Rend, that is, but that is negated with a certain Fighter archetype). This benefit not only applies to their Strength modifier, but to Power Attack as well, something which, unless the Dexterity build has access to Piranha Strike from some softcover book, requires a decent enough Strength score to take to keep up with the damage. The Dexterity build, even with (at-best) Two-Weapon Fighting, won't be as accurate in both hitting consistency and damage consistency, since they will have less to-hit and damage benefits.
No one is disputing that a power attacking, two-handeder will out damage a DEX build. They will, but not by much. A two-hander cannot survive with a 7 DEX like a DEX build can survive with a 7 STR. Heck take a look at the hummingbird o' death build, and it has a 4 STR and is darn scary. The accuracy doesn't take much of a hit because their attacking stat can be higher since there's no need for an AC stat.
The Dexterity character's ability to lock down foes with Combat Maneuvers also goes down the drain, as their CMB turns into poop unless they invest yet another feat on top of something that already takes 30% of their feats, and their ability to negate these problems, should they be incurred on themselves, remain unchanged at best, or increased so slightly that the downgrade in CMB isn't worth the pay-off.
Not quite. Since they have weapon finesse, they get to use their DEX for trips and disarms.
The factor that the Dexterity character can use his main stat to make attacks with ranged weapons are nice, but his damage rolls are still modified by Strength normally. So even if he can hit better with a ranged weapon, his damage, especially when faced with damage reduction, will be so low it'll be lucky to get through it by the mid-game unless he finds a way to apply Dexterity to damage rolls for ranged weapons as well.
So use a crossbow. STR build who gets +100 damage to his longbow does exactly zero damage every time he misses. DEX build with a crossbow at least gets 1-8 damage.
Initiative poses the most beneficial of going Dexterity as far as Offensive Capabilities are concerned, as going first can certainly turn the tides (and is basically a sign of victory or defeat when PCs reach Rocket Tag levels). But assuming both sides get Improved Initiative and the Reactionary trait (believe me, most optimized martials value Initiative pretty highly), the Dexterity build is looking at being only 4 points higher (at best) on a given Initiative roll. Though this disparity increases as Mr. Strength and Mr. Dexterity gain levels, starting off, Mr. Dexterity can quite easily roll equal to or lower than Mr. Strength, meaning his Initiative increase via his main stat isn't a very significant thing.
It's incredibly significant. Assume both took Improved Init and reactionary at first level. The DEX guy tanked his STR, as he can, so has a 20 DEX (after racials). STR guy has a 14 DEX...maybe, but more likely a 12. This also means that STR guy didn't take power attack at first level. That's 11 Init for DEX guy, 8 for STR guy. STR guy won't be increasing that much, DEX guy will increase it every chance he gets. That is a HUGE disparity.
So far, it appears Strength guy is making out, right? So we know Offensively speaking, Dexterity lacks, which makes sense, because they're so much more defensively powered, right?
No, it really doesn't. He gets a slight advantage in damage.
Theoretically speaking, yes. But mechanically, it's not really worth the pay-out. When it comes to Armor Class, the factor that the Dexterity character has 20+ Dexterity (which is a +5 modifier) at the start strictly limits his choice of armor, due to one statistic: That's right, the Maximum Dexterity Bonus. So if Mr. Dexterity has a 20 Dexterity at level 1 (and yes, it's possible), if he takes an armor that has 4 or less MDB, he's actually losing AC in comparison to the guy who just buys the heaviest armor.
Wait, so you're saying that being able to buy cheaper armor and get the same AC benefit is somehow a disadvantage? Did you really think that one through?
Even if you get your full Dexterity bonus on your armor, depending on what you buy, Mr. Dexterity won't be winning out until you get to the extremely late game, where he will have a Dexterity Modifier of 11+, with a 1 AC piece of armor. Until then, it's an equal arms race with a slight difference in AC types; Mr. Dexterity will be superior in Touch AC, but lower in Flat-Footed AC. Mr. Strength will be inferior in Touch AC, but higher in Flat-Footed AC. This makes a difference when facing spellcasters, incorporeals, rogues/slayers/ninjas, and several others that affect these respective ACs, but that's really all it boils down to.
Really? Well let's see at level 1 STR uses Scale Mail for a 17 AC (more likely 16 AC) while DEX can use Studded Leather at half the cost for +1 to AC (18). In a few levels DEX guy buys a mithral buckler and makes the disparity ridiculous.
Saving throws is perhaps the biggest increase in comparison, but it's not a major gamechanger unless you're facing spellcasters who throw nothing but blast spells, and is only really a slap in the face if Mr. Dexterity is a class (or has a certain magic ring) that has Evasion.
Reflex saves are used for all sorts of things. Most traps, terrain hazards. It's not just blasting spells. You can try to minimize it all you want, the fact is DEX adds to saves, STR doesn't.
As far as Skills are concerned, Swim and Climb are only relevant in the early levels, where you don't have magic readily available to transcend obstacles, or in areas where magic is cut-off (and you are forced to rely on physical means). Otherwise, your magic items or party Wizard will negate the need for those skills. (It's still handy to dip some points in these in case those circumstances arise.)
Agreed.
But the skills that Dexterity affects aren't much better. Take the scaling skills involved, which are Acrobatics, Stealth, Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand(, and to a lesser extent, Disable Device). Most of the time, these skills, unless exceptionally invested in, do not provide much helpful utility, both in-combat and out-of-combat; Acrobatics and Escape Artist, two of the most combat-useful skills in the game, are a culprit of disproportioned statistic scaling. Even with a few more points in Dexterity in comparison to Mr. Strength, Mr. Dexterity will only have a slightly better chance of succeeding at these skills versus a combat-trained CR-equivalent enemy, something that isn't worth writing home about.
This is completely wrong. I mean completely. Unless your GM is making antagonists that far exceed your CR, 1 point per level plus your DEX will be very relevant all the way up to level 20. Don't believe me? Look through any AP at the highest levels and see what the monsters/bad guy's perception checks are.
Stealth and Sleight of Hand are useful for out-of-combat subjects, but the former becomes difficult when we subscribe to the prospect of everyone and their grandma has maximum Perception ranks, and the latter requires points to spend in order to even use, something which not all Mr. Dexteritys can afford to do.
See above.
Some skills require you put points in them to even use, and the Fly skill, probably one of the most useful skills for melee combatants in the game, requires a regular means of Flying in order to put points into it; this doesn't make it more advantageous for Mr. Dexterity when he probably has the same problems that Mr. Strength has, which is obtaining a means to regularly fly in the first place.
The difference is that when they both get a reliable means of flying, the DEX guy is already at +10, add the +4 for Average Flying and he needs a whole 1 on a D20 to do most things, without a single point invested. Meanwhile STR guy is at a +4...maybe meaning he'll fail to hover over 50% of the time.
Not only are skills, damage, etc. a problem for Mr. Dexterity,
Except that they're not.
but also the means and access for which he gets his main stat to operate. Outside of the Slashing/Fencing Grace feats (which only realistically apply to 3 weapons, and count as yet another 10% of a given character's feat expenditures) and the Agile weapon property (which isn't even in a Hardcover product, costs enhancement bonuses, and only applies to Finnesseable Melee Weapons), his build availability is nowhere near as open as Mr. Strength, who could use any given Two-Handed Weapon, equip nearly any armor, and not have to worry about his weight limit or any of that mundane stuff.
Seriously? Show me a single build someone has actually used in a game that didn't use a specialized weapon. Everyone does it. EVERYONE. They have Weapon Focus, or use reach or high crit range, or something else. You had to reach pretty far for this one
So as you can clearly tell, Dexterity builds are fairly inoptimal, and barely viable currently. Even if they become more prevalent with splatbooks (and no, I'm not calling ACG a splatbook), it would at-best become a change of playstyle, since I highly doubt a given Dexterity build would outperform a given Strength build.
Yes, if you ignore or try to minimize all the advantages of the DEX build it would appear to be in-optimal. However, if you take an objective look at it, and realize what it really means, it's extremely effective.
And remember kids, Dexterity to Attack and Damage ruins games, but Spellcasters and their Wish Sno-Cone machines and their 1-round encounter-ending spells are the most fun and balanced things ever!
I am so sick of people who don't play at high levels thinking they know what high level play is like. I know you're going to try to tell me I'm wrong that you do play high levels, but statements like this are very telling to those of us that really do play high level games.
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I'm in a 15th level Rise of the Runelords game right now and our wizard is routinely shutting down encounters with spells like Dazing Spell Ball Lightning. Clearly your gameplay experience is different from mine, but I can assure you that spellcasters ending encounters with a single spell is not a myth. Please don't be so quick to dismiss other's gameplay experiences because they don't conform to your expectations.
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As far as dex-to-damage goes...Generic level 9 nodachi +3 with 24 strength, power attack: 5.5+3 +10STR +9PA = 27.5 damage.
Generic level 9 Agile curved blade +2 with 24 dexterity, power attack (still had to have 13STR): 5.5+2 +7DEX +9PA = 23.5 damage.
Generic level 9 scimitar/rapier +3 with 24 dexterity, power attack (still had to have 13STR): 3.5+ 7DEX +6PA = 19.5 damage.
Generic level 9 scimitar/rapier +3 with 24 dexterity, dumped strength so didn't qualify for power attack: 3.5+3 +7DEX = 13.5 damage (+3ab).
This is the problem with just using math instead of actually playing. Looking at these numbers it looks okay, but in an actual game things won't be this pretty.
You see DEX guy spent less money on armor so he has more to get +STR items. So initially he has a 9 STR now has +4 belt, and that's how he qualified for Power Attack. It also gave him a 26 DEX to STR guy's 24 STR.
Now this is just an example of what I'm talking about but straight math like this isn't indicative of the power of a build.
I'm in a 15th level Rise of the Runelords game right now and our wizard is routinely shutting down encounters with spells like Dazing Spell Ball Lightning. Clearly your gameplay experience is different from mine, but I can assure you that spellcasters ending encounters with a single spell is not a myth. Please don't be so quick to dismiss other's gameplay experiences because they don't conform to your expectations.
How many times per day does he do this?
EDIT: And if Dazing monsters for 1 round shuts down an entire encounter, the Wizard isn't doing it alone.
Seriously? Show me a single build someone has actually used in a game that didn't use a specialized weapon. Everyone does it. EVERYONE. They have Weapon Focus, or use reach or high crit range, or something else. You had to reach pretty far for this one
Really? come on. With this one I purporsely did not specialize to avoid "I find this cool weapon but I put WF in that other weapon so lets seel it"
You are quick to assume too much things in your arguments.
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How many times per day does he do this?
EDIT: And if Dazing monsters for 1 round shuts down an entire encounter, the Wizard isn't doing it alone.
I count at least six, if he has the metamagic rod. (3 from 4th level slots, 3 from 7th level slots.) And the daze lasts for rounds equal to the spell level, which is 4.
I'm in a 15th level Rise of the Runelords game right now and our wizard is routinely shutting down encounters with spells like Dazing Spell Ball Lightning. Clearly your gameplay experience is different from mine, but I can assure you that spellcasters ending encounters with a single spell is not a myth. Please don't be so quick to dismiss other's gameplay experiences because they don't conform to your expectations.How many times per day does he do this?
EDIT: And if Dazing monsters for 1 round shuts down an entire encounter, the Wizard isn't doing it alone.
4 rounds, actually. If he's 15th level, then he has at least 4 of those a day, if he uses metamagic reductions. Probably more from high int, and each ball lightning lasts rounds per level (15, if he doesn't have any caster level boosters).
EDIT: upon reading the spell closer, he gets 4 orbs per casting to boot. What a spell.
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I'm in a 15th level Rise of the Runelords game right now and our wizard is routinely shutting down encounters with spells like Dazing Spell Ball Lightning. Clearly your gameplay experience is different from mine, but I can assure you that spellcasters ending encounters with a single spell is not a myth. Please don't be so quick to dismiss other's gameplay experiences because they don't conform to your expectations.How many times per day does he do this?
EDIT: And if Dazing monsters for 1 round shuts down an entire encounter, the Wizard isn't doing it alone.
Er... You haven't seen Dazing Spell in play recently, have you?
Dazing Spell Ball Lightning dazes one creature for four rounds every time they fail the reflex save, and at 15th level it creates four balls that remains for 15 rounds. You can either place all four balls in one square and force 4 saves each round, or have them move around the battlefield, dazing creatures as needed.
I don't have access to his character sheet at the moment so I'm not sure how many he has prepared, but since he only uses it against low-reflex monsters and has similar spells prepared for other types of enemies it hasn't been an issue yet.
This is a not tremendously optimized sylph Air Wizard, so the spell is also highly appropriate for his character.
EDIT: Damn, so many ninjas! Included a quote to make it more clear who I'm replying to. :)
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This is the problem with just using math instead of actually playing. Looking at these numbers it looks okay, but in an actual game things won't be this pretty.
You see DEX guy spent less money on armor so he has more to get +STR items. So initially he has a 9 STR now has +4 belt, and that's how he qualified for Power Attack. It also gave him a 26 DEX to STR guy's 24 STR.
Now this is just an example of what I'm talking about but straight math like this isn't indicative of the power of a build.
So you're saying instead of armor, he upgraded a +2 belt to a +4/+4 belt. Are you aware of how hideously expensive those are? 40k gp. That's even more expensive than +5 Mithral Full Plate. You're WAY out of the ball park of what's reasonable equipment when you have a +2 or +3 equivalent weapon.
----"No one is disputing that a power attacking, two-handeder will out damage a DEX build. They will, but not by much. A two-hander cannot survive with a 7 DEX like a DEX build can survive with a 7 STR. Heck take a look at the hummingbird o' death build, and it has a 4 STR and is darn scary. The accuracy doesn't take much of a hit because their attacking stat can be higher since there's no need for an AC stat.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
"The Dexterity character's ability to lock down foes with Combat Maneuvers also goes down the drain, as their CMB turns into poop unless they invest yet another feat on top of something that already takes 30% of their feats, and their ability to negate these problems, should they be incurred on themselves, remain unchanged at best, or increased so slightly that the downgrade in CMB isn't worth the pay-off."
----"Not quite. Since they have weapon finesse, they get to use their DEX for trips and disarms." ---
^^^ first of all, that's what plenty of people are disputing- who's doing more damage, as well as how accurately. secondly you need to take a separate feat, agile maneuvers, to apply dex to your cmb, even for trip and disarm. Now you're at at least a 3 feat deficit, with more to come as you level and try to make up for your insignificant strength with extra attacks, or duelist style precision builds (which won't work against quite a few enemies, by the way, and can easily be stripped by other circumstances like fortified armors, I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong). And just out of curiosity what weapon is that hummingbird o' death wielding, a tiny dagger? D3 damage fest. Seems like more deficit to overcome.
Regardless, Maxing your dex to try to outrace a str build won't work if you're just trying for pure dpr. It never will, but that margin is bigger than you may think. 50% bigger, at least, and I've seen a lot of str build flourish even as they are simultaneously dipped into dex. I mean, how hard is it to also buy a dex Item with your fighter guy? Hell, while we're on that, your init may be insanely high with a 30 dex, but if you can't actually put that str guy away, he would get to swing right back, and with the sheer BAB bonus, at high end, he will crush the dex guy on the first or second swings - wasn't there a limit on how much dodge you can get anyway? Could be wrong, but I didn't think you could rack up a +25 to dodge. Whatever, i'm on a tangent.
Even if you could, in most cases, the str guy knocks you over and pummels you with his second and third attacks, because your dex to cmd will almost never outpace his cmb and accumulated "improved/greater combat maneuver" bonuses, particularly on overruns, bullrushes and the like, which low strength characters can't req into, and often on trips, sunders, and disarms too - feats which you can't afford at a 3-5 feat deficit.
You see DEX guy spent less money on armor so he has more to get +STR items. So initially he has a 9 STR now has +4 belt, and that's how he qualified for Power Attack. It also gave him a 26 DEX to STR guy's 24 STR.
Now this is just an example of what I'm talking about but straight math like this isn't indicative of the power of a build.
I'm not sure where you are deriving this number from. The fact that a chain shirt is cheaper than full-plate? As mentioned above, mithril is all but needed once dex magic items are in play and I would think that is a large factor here. I suppose a strength character has a good chance of getting mithril late in his career when he may have a permanent dex enhancement bonus, but it seems less likely to me.
If it is just chain shirt vs full-plate, that feels like a wash to me after level 3.
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^^^ first of all, that's what plenty of people are disputing- who's doing more damage, as well as how accurately. secondly you need to take a separate feat, agile maneuvers, to apply dex to your cmb, even for trip and disarm.
You do not need Agile Maneuvers for combat maneuvers that use your weapon if that weapon is finessable AND you have Weapon Finesse.
You do not need Agile Maneuvers for combat maneuvers that use your weapon if that weapon is finessable AND you have Weapon Finesse.
^^^ first of all, that's what plenty of people are disputing- who's doing more damage, as well as how accurately. secondly you need to take a separate feat, agile maneuvers, to apply dex to your cmb, even for trip and disarm.
sure you do, that's the whole point of the agile maneuver feat - at least, if you want to use your dex for calculating CMB. Where's it say that? UCG? APG? Kinda want to know if only to avoid any such arguments in the future.
Xethik is correct. Agile Maneuvers is useful for maneuvers that don't rely on weapons (such as grapple or dirty trick), but otherwise Weapon Finesse has you covered.
The ruling is found in the Core Rulebook FAQ.
Xethik is correct. Agile Maneuvers is useful for maneuvers that don't rely on weapons (such as grapple or dirty trick), but otherwise Weapon Finesse has you covered.
The ruling is found in the Core Rulebook FAQ.
Thanks for the ruling source, I couldn't remember if it was an official FAQ.
It depends on what combat maneuver you're attempting. Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses apply to the roll. Therefore, if you're attempting a disarm, sunder, or trip maneuver, you can apply your Dex bonus instead of your Str mod on the combat maneuver check (assuming you're using a finessable weapon, of course). For other combat maneuvers, you use the normal rule for determining CMB (Str instead of Dex).
The Agile Maneuvers feat applies to all combat maneuvers, not just disarm, sunder, and trip, so it is still a useful option for a Dex-based creature that uses combat maneuvers.
You see DEX guy spent less money on armor so he has more to get +STR items. So initially he has a 9 STR now has +4 belt, and that's how he qualified for Power Attack. It also gave him a 26 DEX to STR guy's 24 STR.
Now this is just an example of what I'm talking about but straight math like this isn't indicative of the power of a build.
Considering how prohibitively expensive it is to double-stat a belt, he'd be wiser to just take the strength, and spend that cash on a really nice weapon.
You can do all sorts of things to mitigate numbers - which is how dex-to-damage can be perfectly viable. It's just hard to look at those numbers and say it's broken.
thank you Kudaku, Tri and Xethik, I retract that point then; In which case a dex build could compete - with say, for example an adamantium weapon, and improved sunder, if you could afford it. Be a little strange, but if you did bump chests with a a 2her str type who's unfortunate enough not to have adamantium of his own, your dex char could probably chop his +3 greatsword into little strips with a few good hits of your rapier. Still, I feel like it's not enough - always comes down to that basic fact: how many hits does it take the dex guy, as compared to how many hits would it take the str guy?
There's no arguing that dpr is comparable. Str is better damage, dex is more versatile, particularly with skills.
True, though the dex user would still need 13 strength and Power Attack to qualify for Improved Sunder.
Frankly Strength tends to be better for maneuvers because of the feat cost involved. Picking up Weapon Finesse, Slashing Grace/Dervish Dance/Fencing Grace/etc and Agile Maneuvers if you're not taking one of the attack maneuvers really puts you on the back foot when picking maneuver feats, which tend to come in packs. Grappling in particular has a huge amount of options available.
grappling is no joke, even a without the STR i've seen that chain go to work. On a rogue no less. Sneak attack + the whole "if you roll a 1" talent tree + Sap expert + the whole grapple gambit + a magic rope with advanced hardness/hp (had "animate rope" on it too at cl 7, but he stopped using that on anything but the occasional town guard for giggles) = the most effective and infamous slaver (though to be fair there've only been a few) i've ever seen in a campaign >.< the skills,the stats etc didn't make him OP, but all the loot he stripped going after attractive female adventurers... that was OP. Sent paladins, bounty-hunters, everything after him, and he'd just avoid them, gather info, follow them, bonk em on the head, and /or grapple/tie them up them with one hand and bonk em with the other. ridiculous O.o I felt like I was just feeding him gear, and anyone without gear was just fodder.
edit: eehh.. tangent. anyway, point i'm ceding is that skills other than bab and ac can go a long way, so overall dex is not only as viable as Str but sometimes more fun (or shameful in this case)
Stuff
Haversack only covers the carrying items thing. What about armor and weapons/shields/wondrous items, etc.? Items that don't receive the benefits of a Haversack, i.e. items that the PC will be using constantly, still provide enough of an issue. This can be negated by the endgame, using Mithril and such, but that won't come until 7th level or so, assuming we're starting from scratch. (WBL PCs could probably skip by this issue.)
Actually, it would be quite significant, especially when you consider that, unless you're utilizing Slashing/Fencing Grace (which is only for a Swashbuckler/Human, otherwise you won't get this until later in the game, say 3rd-5th level), or an Agile Weapon (which takes at least 8,000 gold to do), you're having to rely on Strength to damage. So you can't even hit comparable damage until either of these things happen. Additionally, there are more ways to increase Strength than there are Dexterity, and the factor that Strength builds have more consistent to-hit for their damage multipliers only leaves Dexterity builds in the dust.
Inoptimal maneuvers are inoptimal. Unless you're fighting Large or smaller creatures, or you have some way to give yourself Gargantuan size on a regular basis, Trip is pointless due to the size restrictions. One could try to bypass this, but it becomes a real investment, something which probably wouldn't work with a Dex build. Disarm could be useful, but you run into creatures that don't use manufactured weapons, which is more likely than you think in the later levels, and it becomes useless. Both builds also require a heightened Intelligence, something which I believe a Dexterity build could not pull off, assuming equal-level effectiveness for both Strength and Dexterity builds. Oh, and Combat Expertise, yet another feat tax. You'd be making a better point by suggesting Dirty Tricks.
So now you're suggesting they invest their ranged damaging capabilities on a crossbow? That's the most absurd idea I've ever heard, perhaps the most absurd thing next to its grandfather feat, Prone Shooter. That 1-8 damage won't mean crap when they're facing equivalent-CR opponents that have DR, or are Incorporeal. I'd rather be using an Agile Light Throwing Spiked Shield for a ranged weapon than a piddly crossbow. Hell, ditch the Crossbow, Winged Boots of Speed for days.
And Dex Guy becomes a tank for the beginner levels, meanwhile he still won't have Dex to Damage, and will at-best be a good Aid-Another Tank guy. Past those levels, AC becomes less relevant because Spells and Touch Attacks, plus the factor that creatures can boost their attack bonuses to levels that make your AC look like a joke unless you invest like a tank (and then become a useless pile of Dex Junk).
Buying cheaper base armor isn't enough of a compensation for the factor that in order for Dex builds to pull comparable numbers to Two-Handed Strength builds, they need to TWF. Additionally, you take a Full Plate, which has an effective 10 AC, and you compare it to Padded Armor, it has an effective 9 AC. A +8 MDB is pretty damn high, which is (generously) mid-level tier, and the only way to increase that is by special materials (which can be equally applicable to the Full Plate, albeit more pricy), Armor Training (Fighter only, which is not a smart class to pick for this), or changing to an item that has no MDB, such as the Silken Ceremonial. During the time that the character has less than a 9 Dexterity modifier, Mr. Dexterity will always have less raw AC compared to a heavy-armor character. Even if you're playing with a Barbarian that has a Breastplate, their effective 9 AC is equal to a character that has a +8 Dex Mod wearing Padded Armor. The only key difference is that Mr. Dexterity has 8 of his 9 AC going to Touch AC, versus Mr. Strength having maybe half of that going to his Touch AC (leaving the rest to Flat-Footed AC).
Traps are a joke because most every group has their Skill Monkey find and disable them without problem. (It actually gives the Rogue something to actually do in the game, which is a shame because even he would suck at that job compared to other classes; but that's for another topic.) Hazards aren't an issue if your group comes prepared for it, and most optimized groups do. Even if Dexterity adds to a Save, it's still fairly selective in its usage, and not gamebreaking even if you do fail. It's probably one of the few saving graces about Dex Builds, and it's not even something that's a dealbreaker.
Wait, so we aren't comparing apples to apples when it comes to skill checks? But we are for damage comparisons? What kind of ass-backwards thinking is that? If we're comparing this for an AP, then quite frankly, it doesn't matter if he optimizes a Strength build or a Dexterity build: APs, if the PCs optimize well enough, aren't much of a challenge mechanically or mathematically. But if we're going for an all-out comparison, then my claim still stands: Skills scale disproportionate to their opposed checks. Acrobatics and Escape Artist are close to useless when you're fighting enemies who actually have Dex/Strength stats worth a damn. or are of a size greater than yours, Stealth is close to useless when you're facing enemies who actually have ranks in Perception, and Sleight of Hand has so little use that it's not worth investing points. A fair enough point you made on Fly, though.
I didn't have to reach far. The factor that Dexterity builds can only function with Light weapons, Rapiers, Whips, and Aldori Dueling Swords, is a lot more restrictive than just "Any given two-handed weapon." The other important factor is that outside of Swashbucklers, Dex to Damage isn't plausible when using straight Hardcover materials. A lot of people are confusing the complaints of Swashbucklers being overpowered with Dexterity being overpowered; it's not. Dexterity doesn't get Weapon Finesse for free, Swashbucklers do. Dexterity doesn't add their charaacter level to their damage rolls, Swashbucklers do. Dexterity doesn't give improved critical for free, Swashbucklers do. It's the factor that the Swashbuckler gets all of these things and doesn't have to pay nearly as much out of its feats or class features or item costs, or whatever, that makes people go "OMGWTFNERFDEXPLS"
I also forgot to mention that for Dex builds, it's TWF or bust. So not only are you investing half your feats and a fair enough chunk of your WBL to be able to actually do something with your build, you're still pulling less numbers than the Strength guy, and your increased defensive benefits and out-of-combat utility don't mean squat when compared to equally-optimized creatures.
You can sit there and play the whole "It doesn't happen in a real game, you don't know anything" card all you like. You're probably right, but I can guarantee you the only reason it doesn't happen in a real game is because it results in "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies" situations. I doubt a GM will accept the whole "Planar Binding Wish Sno-Cone Machine" crap without throwing a wrench in the mix.
And if he does, you can bet he'll pull the same crap with you, and he doesn't need a by-the-rules explanation for it.