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The issue is not "this is weaker than a full-caster". The issue is "this is weaker than other options meant to fill similar roles". The eldritch knight is the weakest way to play a magical swordsman.
So what? The Bard is the weakest full casting class (meaning full caster level) but bards kick ass, and most people thoroughly enjoy playing them. Don't get me wrong Jiggy, I greatly respect your knowledge of the game, and agree with most of what you say on the subject. I just don't buy the argument that PrCs, specifically EK and MT can't be totally viable participants in the game as designed. If you say EK is worse then other "gish" options, I might not disagree, but to say that they can't carry their weight is ridiculous.
A wizard can practically solo many APL+2 encounters. I can add two levels of commoner, and still kick ass. Why all this crying about being denied early entry into these PrCs? Your being "forced" to take levels in THE MOST POWERFUL CLASS IN THE GAME!
PS Take that 6th level of wizard BEFORE that first level of EK.
The issue is not "this is weaker than a full-caster". The issue is "this is weaker than other options meant to fill similar roles". The eldritch knight is the weakest way to play a magical swordsman.
So what? The Bard is the weakest full casting class (meaning full caster level) but bards kick ass, and most people thoroughly enjoy playing them. Don't get me wrong Jiggy, I greatly respect your knowledge of the game, and agree with most of what you say on the subject. I just don't buy the argument that PrCs, specifically EK and MT can't be totally viable participants in the game as designed. If you say EK is worse then other "gish" options, I might not disagree, but to say that they can't carry their weight is ridiculous.
A wizard can practically solo many APL+2 encounters. I can add two levels of commoner, and still kick ass. Why all this crying about being denied early entry into these PrCs? Your being "forced" to take levels in THE MOST POWERFUL CLASS IN THE GAME!
PS Take that 6th level of wizard BEFORE that first level of EK.
You realize that unlike Wizard/Eldritch Knight, the Bard starts with 3/4th BAB and *has* an accuracy booster right? Not only that Dawnflower Dervishes get double the normal accuracy boosters. They are much more suited for magical swordsman out of the box the Wizard/Eldritch Knight which mostly is just mess of trying to do two things well and doing both badly.
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The issue is not "this is weaker than a full-caster". The issue is "this is weaker than other options meant to fill similar roles". The eldritch knight is the weakest way to play a magical swordsman.
So what? The Bard is the weakest full casting class (meaning full caster level) but bards kick ass, and most people thoroughly enjoy playing them. Don't get me wrong Jiggy, I greatly respect your knowledge of the game, and agree with most of what you say on the subject. I just don't buy the argument that PrCs, specifically EK and MT can't be totally viable participants in the game as designed. If you say EK is worse then other "gish" options, I might not disagree, but to say that they can't carry their weight is ridiculous.
A wizard can practically solo many APL+2 encounters. I can add two levels of commoner, and still kick ass. Why all this crying about being denied early entry into these PrCs? Your being "forced" to take levels in THE MOST POWERFUL CLASS IN THE GAME!
PS Take that 6th level of wizard BEFORE that first level of EK.
The Bard is also better at being an Eldritch Knight than the Eldritch Knight, which was kind of Jiggy's point. You end up with a character who's worse at the two things he "specializes" in than the base gish classes, while being taxed to be so. Pathfinder PrCs are also super slow to hit their stride in actually allowing you to execute their intended function, and for many people their full functionality is thresholded well outside of the levels most people get to play them. With the current ruling in place, they're almost the definition of trap options.
An irrelevant question, as I was answering what you want a +16 BAB for. I made no comment on the value of such a thing.He asked what feat had a BAB of 16 as a requirement.See my post before the one you quoted.What for?
You said F2 gets a feat. In the post I directed you to, you will see that I already states that along with the full benefits of each choice.
So what? The Bard is the weakest full casting class (meaning full caster level) but bards kick ass, and most people thoroughly enjoy playing them. Don't get me wrong Jiggy, I greatly respect your knowledge of the game, and agree with most of what you say on the subject. I just don't buy the argument that PrCs, specifically EK and MT can't be totally viable participants in the game as designed. If you say EK is worse then other "gish" options, I might not disagree, but to say that they can't carry their weight is ridiculous.
The issue is not "this is weaker than a full-caster". The issue is "this is weaker than other options meant to fill similar roles". The eldritch knight is the weakest way to play a magical swordsman.
First off...who says Bards are the weakest 6 level caster? I'd give that honor to the Magus myself, what with his narrowly focused spell list and all. Even though the Magus is solid.
And an EK at many levels CAN'T carry its weight. For a good portion of its prgression it both has ub-3/4 BaB and stunted spellcasting. It is teh wort of both worlds for many levels.
An dthe saddest part is, the EK is probably the best of the "mixed class" PrCs.
So what? The Bard is the weakest full casting class (meaning full caster level) but bards kick ass, and most people thoroughly enjoy playing them. Don't get me wrong Jiggy, I greatly respect your knowledge of the game, and agree with most of what you say on the subject. I just don't buy the argument that PrCs, specifically EK and MT can't be totally viable participants in the game as designed. If you say EK is worse then other "gish" options, I might not disagree, but to say that they can't carry their weight is ridiculous.
A wizard can practically solo many APL+2 encounters. I can add two levels of commoner, and still kick ass. Why all this crying about being denied early entry into these PrCs? Your being "forced" to take levels in THE MOST POWERFUL CLASS IN THE GAME!
PS Take that 6th level of wizard BEFORE that first level of EK.
See, though, it's more that some prestige classes are just bad, while others are pretty damn cool. It's a real case-by-case basis.
Dragon Disciple is cool, and still pretty viable. Loremaster seems pretty darn cool. Shadowdancer and Pathfinder Chronicler seem pretty cool, but more for fluff than functionality. Assassin and Duelist have pretty much been supplanted by the Slayer and Swashbuckler. Arcane Trickster and Arcane Archer take a long time to get into, even with SLAs helping, and while Arcane Archer can easily be replaced by the Myrmidarch (assuming your DM goes by RAI and not hard-assed RAW), the Trickster really kinda looses out on not having a parallel base class, so it's permanently stuck at level 6-7+ entry. The Mystic Theurge by it's nature is wonky, and the Eldritch Knight is just awful regardless (there are just WAY better ways to build a mage-knight then EK).
The APG Prestige Classes are generally much better than the Core Prestige Classes (which are legacies of 3rd/3.5). Each of those are far more functional, and have cool ideas behind them.
The Horizon Walker is probably the weakest there, but still has some cool qualities (it's about on-par with the Loremaster and Chronicler). The Master Spy can be really cool, especially in campaigns where skulduggery supercedes direct combat. The Stalwart Defender and Rage Prophet are cool, maybe fall a little short of being superstars (Prophet isn't as strong as a pure-Barbarian or Bloodrager with a dip into Oracle, or compared to the Dragon Disciple, it's closest parallel, while the Defender is badass, but based around Defense, which means you're always playing bodyguard), but are pretty cool still for what they set out to do, and are fun to play. The Nature Warden is a really cool Prestige Class, but effectively got ported to Base Class status as the Hunter, so take of that what you will. The real superstars are the Battle Herald, Master Chymist, and Holy Vindicator, for being a true "commander" class that's a super-supporter, a total beatstick of a class and the endgame for a bunch of different Alchemist builds, and one of the (if not THE) craziest divine classes out there respectively.
APG PRCs are generally much more well-built, interesting, all-around better classes, and better represent a "prestige" class: a master commander, a mad scientist par-excellence, a blood-splurting super-holy-warrior, a front-lines Volvr, a, well, Master Spy, a gatekeeper so powerful as to be classified as an Immovable Object.
tl;dr - Prestige Classes can be really good.
MT just kinda isn't because it's entry is way too late, and EK is just bad in general.
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You said F2 gets a feat. In the post I directed you to, you will see that I already states that along with the full benefits of each choice.So you already knew the benefits of +16BAB, and that it did not take 21st level to use it.
And that benefit isn't anywhere close to as good as 9th level spells, which is the point that's being made.
You said F2 gets a feat. In the post I directed you to, you will see that I already states that along with the full benefits of each choice.So you already knew the benefits of +16BAB, and that it did not take 21st level to use it.
My apologies, I had not considered that someone would use the fighter bonus feat to claim the benefit of obtaining a 16BAB prereq.
Also, the 8th level spell alone is better than all of that, never mind the 9th level one.
And that benefit isn't anywhere close to as good as 9th level spells, which is the point that's being made.At no point was I saying otherwise.
No offence dude, but sometimes chasing your point seems like chasing the dragon.
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No offence dude, but sometimes chasing your point seems like chasing the dragon.And that benefit isn't anywhere close to as good as 9th level spells, which is the point that's being made.At no point was I saying otherwise.
Yeah, if that's not what you were saying, you weren't really talking about anything, so I'm not sure what point you were trying to make in regards to this conversation. You just stated the benefits of Fighter 2 which were obvious and didn't need stating.
Seriously, this entire FAQ business is just a train wreck. I haven't heard of anyone who's happy about this FAQ actually having a situation in which it helped them aside from "Even though I'd NEVER let this cheese in my game, I'm glad no one else can do it."
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No offence dude, but sometimes chasing your point seems like chasing the dragon.And that benefit isn't anywhere close to as good as 9th level spells, which is the point that's being made.At no point was I saying otherwise.
I've done that.
As a lv15 Barbarian polymorphed into a minotaur vs an ancient red dragon.
Benny Hilly music was playing as I kept running after it.
It kept breathing fire after me.
The party's Favored Soul was chasing me, healing me constantly, while the party's catfolk Scout kept getting crit after crit against it with an oathbow.
That was one of the more absurd encounters we faced.
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Yeah, if that's not what you were saying, you weren't really talking about anything, so I'm not sure what point you were trying to make in regards to this conversation. You just stated the benefits of Fighter 2 which were obvious and didn't need stating.
Why do I have to be making a point? This isn't a contest, and no one is going to 'win'.
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And an EK at many levels CAN'T carry its weight. For a good portion of its prgression it both has ub-3/4 BaB and stunted spellcasting. It is teh wort of both worlds for many levels.
2. W1 1 1 equal 1 1
3. W2 2 2 equal 1 1
4. W3 2 3 behind 2 2
5. W4 3 3 equal 2 2
6. W5 3 4 behind 3 2
7. E1 4 5 behind 3 3
8. E2 5 6 behind 3 3
9. E3 6 6 equal 4 3
10 E4 7 7 equal 4 4
11 E5 8 8 equal 5 4
12 E6 9 9 equal 5 4
13 E7 10 9 ahead 6 5
14 E8 11 10 ahead 6 5
15 E9 12 11 ahead 7 5
16 E10 13 12 ahead 7 6
17 W6 14 12 ahead 8 6
18 W7 14 13 ahead 8 6
19 W8 15 14 ahead 9 6
20 F2 16 15 ahead 9 6
You are ahead of 3/4 BAB 9 levels
You are behind for 4 levels
You are equal for 7 levels
You said F2 gets a feat. In the post I directed you to, you will see that I already states that along with the full benefits of each choice.So you already knew the benefits of +16BAB, and that it did not take 21st level to use it.My apologies, I had not considered that someone would use the fighter bonus feat to claim the benefit of obtaining a 16BAB prereq.
Also, the 8th level spell alone is better than all of that, never mind the 9th level one.
If casting is that precious to you, then you shouldn't have went into EK at all.
Wiz 20 gets way more slots.
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Yeah, if that's not what you were saying, you weren't really talking about anything, so I'm not sure what point you were trying to make in regards to this conversation. You just stated the benefits of Fighter 2 which were obvious and didn't need stating.Why do I have to be making a point? This isn't a contest, and no one is going to 'win'.
As much as I'd love to get into a needlessly semantic argument about this, the topic at hand is this errata, so I ask again to anyone in the thread:
For those of you who support this FAQ, did any of you actually ever have anyone use it? Did any of you play with someone who did? What were your experiences with it? Did you just not like it because it 'didn't feel right'? And if so, are you simply happy with the knowledge that other people can't use it?
I've honestly seen WAY too many topics like this get pulled off topic, thus making them irrelevant to the subject at hand, and I'd rather not see that happen with this one on "Is the EK good?" or other things like this.
It it were a Wow martial option then I would agree, but really that 4th iterative does nothing.
By that level, being a martial does nothing.
You did EK for the props.
I also wouldn't say the 4th is useless. You can do some crazy buffing. Although, the optimal situation is that you are using form of the dragon III or shapechange. In the non-optimal situation you are in your armor cleaning up mooks (only 5% spell failure chance with some investment).
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You can use it if you like it in your homegames.
People could also have not used the previous faq if they didn't like that one. Why change it again?
I haven't heard of anyone who's happy about this FAQ actually having a situation in which it helped them aside from "Even though I'd NEVER let this cheese in my game, I'm glad no one else can do it."
This has always been the reason sadly.
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And an EK at many levels CAN'T carry its weight. For a good portion of its prgression it both has ub-3/4 BaB and stunted spellcasting. It is teh wort of both worlds for many levels.** spoiler omitted **
Yes, really. 3/4 BaB carries with it certain assumptions. The main one of which is that you have a way to boost your to-hit beyond 3/4 BaB.
So any level that the EK has lesser than OR equal to 3/4 BaB, he is sub-3/4 BaB in total hit bonuses.
Bard has 3/4 BaB, plus spells and Inspire Courage (or that Archaeologist's Luck thing).
Inquisitor has 3/4 BaB, plus spells and Bane. And Judgement (or Favored Target).
Alchemist has 3/4 BaB plus Extracts and Mutagen. Plus attacking Touch AC with Bombs.
Magus has 3/4 BaB and spells. Granted he doesn't have a (non optional) way to boost accuracy, but he does get a free extra attack and a hefty damage boost with Spell Combat, which is a fair trade.
Hunter has 3/4 BaB, plus spells and a free Flank buddy who ives him an extra round's worth of attacks.
Investigator has 3/4 BaB, plus Extracts and Studied Combat.
Leaving EK and the Rogue as the only odd men out on supposed martial classes who don't have a way to boost their to-hit to full BaB and beyond.
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And if so, are you simply happy with the knowledge that other people can't use it?You can use it if you like it in your homegames.
Oh wow, I didn't know I could do that in my homegames. /sarcasm
Seriously, why does this point get brought up whenever there's a ruling like this, as though it's some new piece of information? Especially for the fact that PFS players don't have that option, and some people can only play in PFS. This ruling effects them directly, and the whole 'houserule it' doesn't cut it for them.Actually, let's talk about doing this in homegames, since the GM may not know about this FAQ or the last one. Now you have to request to let a racial spell-like ability (or cantrip from a trait) to work as a casting feature. Now as I've said before, I didn't think the original ruling on this made sense.
But we've had about 2 years with this current ruling, gotten used to it, and built around it, all to have many new and unique concepts ruined by it, and now it would be harder than ever to get a GM to let you use this character, especially if they thought it was shaky before.
The fight to use the old ruling in a homegame is an uphill battle, and one that shouldn't need to be fought when Paizo itself though that their old ruling was good enough to stand for nearly 2 whole years.
If you don't like merica you can geeeeet out!You said F2 gets a feat. In the post I directed you to, you will see that I already states that along with the full benefits of each choice.So you already knew the benefits of +16BAB, and that it did not take 21st level to use it.My apologies, I had not considered that someone would use the fighter bonus feat to claim the benefit of obtaining a 16BAB prereq.
Also, the 8th level spell alone is better than all of that, never mind the 9th level one.
But when I want to play a character that does both and at some point I have to choose between the two, I'll choose casting. Because in the concept I want, it's the stronger choice.
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My only problem is from a mechanics standpoint there is no reason to not allow the SLA rules. They aren't mechanically superior to other options available (they are better than their non-early entry equivalents obviously). Whenever this issue is brought up the other side of the argument almost always falls into 'I just don't like it.' or 'It FEELS cheesy.'
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The 2 year thing is nothing since first rule stand for more time.
The first thing I quote from you is simply silly, where you happy than some other people have to play with some rule they didn't like? probably not is not your game. The same for them with the new FAQ and other people games.
As stated, I think the original ruling was silly, but it was at the very least a unique facet of the game, even if an unintentional one that allowed creative players to find alternative ways of doing things that didn't at all harm the balance of the game. Would I have made the first ruling? No. Do I think it made the game better? Yes. As for the ruling, TECHNICALLY the first one was an actual FAQ instead of an errata, so it could be considered to exist since the game's outset, although never enforced until two years ago, although really that's just being silly and pedantic.
And I think it's obvious that there's people who are happy about this, there's plenty of replies that are just "I like this" without any explanation as to how their game was worse before it. Was early entry into (once again) trash prestige classes or eking out a bit more damage with Arcane Strike really breaking games? Some people like knowing that everyone can't do "that cheese" because some people think the game should be played one way and only one way.
For proof of that, you can look in tons of threads where people tell others they're playing the wrong way; this isn't a hard thing to find an example of on these boards, or on gaming boards in general. And to generalize, it's almost always older players who are more set in their ways telling younger players that they're not playing correctly. Tradition is a hell of a drug for these grognards, and they hate knowing that someone is enjoying the game in a different fashion.
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And an EK at many levels CAN'T carry its weight. For a good portion of its prgression it both has ub-3/4 BaB and stunted spellcasting. It is teh wort of both worlds for many levels.** spoiler omitted **Yes, really. 3/4 BaB carries with it certain assumptions. The main one of which is that you have a way to boost your to-hit beyond 3/4 BaB.
So any level that the EK has lesser than OR equal to 3/4 BaB, he is sub-3/4 BaB in total hit bonuses.
Bard has 3/4 BaB, plus spells and Inspire Courage (or that Archaeologist's Luck thing).
Inquisitor has 3/4 BaB, plus spells and Bane. And Judgement (or Favored Target).
Alchemist has 3/4 BaB plus Extracts and Mutagen. Plus attacking Touch AC with Bombs.
Magus has 3/4 BaB and spells. Granted he doesn't have a (non optional) way to boost accuracy, but he does get a free extra attack and a hefty damage boost with Spell Combat, which is a fair trade.
Hunter has 3/4 BaB, plus spells and a free Flank buddy who ives him an extra round's worth of attacks.
Investigator has 3/4 BaB, plus Extracts and Studied Combat.
Leaving EK and the Rogue as the only odd men out on supposed martial classes who don't have a way to boost their to-hit to full BaB and beyond.
You get some legit buff spells as an EK plus faster polymorph access than a magus. Your to-hit is not the stuff of legends but you get snow-cones, planar binding and animate dead to make up for it.
It's legit. It doesn't hold up to wizard 20, but neither does the magus.
But when I want to play a character that does both and at some point I have to choose between the two, I'll choose casting. Because in the concept I want, it's the stronger choice.
Then just go straight wizard with higher strength and martial prof (greatsword).
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For those of you focusing on level 20 performance, how often do you actually play at 20? For me, it's almost never. I never see anything get past 14, and usually a character is finished by 10-12. When you end at this level, multiclass PrCs are clearly behind the equivalent 3/4 bab caster, with the possible exception of dragon disciple.
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You can use it if you like it in your homegames.
People could also have not used the previous faq if they didn't like that one. Why change it again?
I suppose they changed it after some feedback from PFS.
That would suck since this is what they said in the old FAQ. "If there is in-play evidence that this ruling is creating characters that are too powerful, the design team may revisit whether or not to allow spell-like abilities to count for prestige class requirements."
My only problem is from a mechanics standpoint there is no reason to not allow the SLA rules. They aren't mechanically superior to other options available (they are better than their non-early entry equivalents obviously). Whenever this issue is brought up the other side of the argument almost always falls into 'I just don't like it.' or 'It FEELS cheesy.'Of course there is. Some races benefit form it while others do not, that is an imbalance.
Every race and class could benefit from the old ruling. Any could pick up a trait, gain a SLA and pick up feats like arcane strike. The FAQ was about more that prestige classes. In fact, it wasn't even the main thrust of it, but just a happy side effect.
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I don't understand your point. Of course races have different benefits. How is that imbalanced?
Easiest example: Favored class bonuses for races. Are they just straight up imbalanced? Why are these ok?
This is probably the best point for race imbalance. Half Elves make better summoners than EVERYONE else. What about racial archetypes? Are those imbalanced as well? So Aasimar make better Mystic Threurges, that's really no different here. This was no more unbalancing than any of those things, so stating it 'unbalanced' the races isn't exactly a strong point.
And again, we can houserule it, but what needs to be addressed here is also the lack of communication that went on with this errata that honestly affects quite a few players. We can houserule anything (in home games), but does that mean we just accept sweeping changes like this with a smile? If nothing that's FAQ'd actually matters, there's little reason to have them.
However if they do matter, like they do in PFS, it's important to let people know that there's people who have a problem with this, as I do.
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The simple answer is that it is not OK.
As great as everyone being generic cardboard cutouts is I'm going to say in my opinion having racial differences including stats, spell-likes, favored class, skills, traits, and subtypes creates an interesting and balanced game. Everyone will have something they are better and worse at.
For those of you focusing on level 20 performance, how often do you actually play at 20? For me, it's almost never. I never see anything get past 14, and usually a character is finished by 10-12. When you end at this level, multiclass PrCs are clearly behind the equivalent 3/4 bab caster, with the possible exception of dragon disciple.
I GM'd a one through 20 campaign and an epic level campaign in 3.5
Our first college campaign was 1-20
we had some flops and some campaign that ended to early
We are at 15 in RotRL. After the main comp is over, we are going to play a mythic sub-plot.
Other group I played with ended a campaign at level 13 due to lack of consistent players.
Another campaign died at 3 for the same reason.
Now we're playing a rotating GM set-up with some ad-hoc sessions. Seems to be going well, but the low levels are a slog.
I do not even feel like I am playing until around level 7. Before that, it seems like my d20 is playing more than I am.
Your concept should hold up in the crucible of high levels. 20 is always an important level, even if it is not a practical play point. furthermore problems at 20 are more apparent than those at mid or low levels and will give a heads up to potential problems. For example. rogues 20 is 10-12 to-hit the fighter. That is an egregious gap.
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And an EK at many levels CAN'T carry its weight. For a good portion of its prgression it both has ub-3/4 BaB and stunted spellcasting. It is teh wort of both worlds for many levels.Really? ** spoiler omitted **
Yeah, it has stunted casting progression at most of its levels, is even about 1/2 of the time (but without the same attack boosters that other 3/4 BAB classes get, meaning it's actually behind), and is definitively behind even the Rogue about 1/4 of the time.
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I guess my problem comes down to there is legal and untouched character build in PFS play who walks in and casts persistent Overwhelming Presence with DC 25 at level 11. Everyone prostrates themselves before this divinity besides one man who somehow made both saves. He is then quicken Dominate Monstered at the same DC and forced to bow before him.
How is any early entry option I build ever suppose to compare to this wizard? I'm not saying I want that kind of power only that we don't trick ourselves into thinking any of these prestige classes come even close to this.
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I guess my problem comes down to there is legal and untouched character build in PFS play who walks in and casts persistent Overwhelming Presence with DC 25 at level 11. Everyone prostrates themselves before this divinity besides one man who somehow made both saves. He is then quicken Dominate Monstered at the same DC and forced to bow before him.
How is any early entry option I build ever suppose to compare to this wizard? I'm not saying I want that kind of power only that we don't trick ourselves into thinking any of these prestige classes come even close to this.
That's a full caster build, they're allowed to have nice things.
Yeah, it has stunted casting progression at most of its levelsAnd an EK at many levels CAN'T carry its weight. For a good portion of its prgression it both has ub-3/4 BaB and stunted spellcasting. It is teh wort of both worlds for many levels.Really? ** spoiler omitted **
What? Compared to a magus, this is not even remotely true. Compared to wizard, well duh.
Now as far as to-hit goes. Polymorph + haste + greater/heroism + greater invisibility and so on can really add up to a lot of to-hit bonuses.
But you are also a wizard. High levels you can do all sort of nonsenese. Like make a snow-cone of this creature and then magic jar into it. Add magic items and now you have 49 strength instead of the regular strength.
SO: +19str + 16 BAB + 4 greater heroism + 1 haste + 5 magic amulet - 5 PA - 8 size = +32
Without PA it is +37 and you depend on strength and arcane strike for damage.
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I guess my problem comes down to there is legal and untouched character build in PFS play who walks in and casts persistent Overwhelming Presence with DC 25 at level 11. Everyone prostrates themselves before this divinity besides one man who somehow made both saves. He is then quicken Dominate Monstered at the same DC and forced to bow before him.
Where is this build?