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Below is a slightly altered build I had before.
The mutagen and any extracts are not included in the statblock, but I will show where I included them when calculating the numbers.
Igor the Invesigator
Half-orc investigator 11 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 30)
LN Medium humanoid (human, orc)
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +26
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Defense
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AC 20, touch 12, flat-footed 19 (+7 armor, +1 deflection, +1 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 69 (11d8+11)
Fort +9, Ref +11, Will +11
Defensive Abilities orc ferocity, trap sense +3; Immune poison
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 inspired sword cane +19/+14 (1d6+11) or
. . dagger +17/+12 (1d4+9/19-20) or
. . morningstar +17/+12 (1d8+9)
Ranged +1 adaptive composite shortbow +15/+10 (1d6+10/×3)
Special Attacks studied combat (+5, 4 rounds), studied strike +4d6
Investigator Extracts Prepared (CL 11th; concentration +15)
. . 4th—echolocation[UM], freedom of movement, restoration
. . 3rd—fly (2), haste (2), tongues
. . 2nd—barkskin (2), investigative mind[ACG], invisibility (2)
. . 1st—comprehend languages, cure light wounds, disguise self, identify, long arm[ACG] (2)
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Statistics
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Str 19, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 19, Wis 12, Cha 9
Base Atk +8; CMB +17; CMD 24
Feats Extra Investigator Talent[ACG], Extra Investigator Talent[ACG], Furious Focus[APG], Great Fortitude, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Perception)
Skills Acrobatics +5, Appraise +8, Bluff +16, Climb +8, Diplomacy +16, Disable Device +22, Disguise +16, Intimidate +4, Knowledge (arcana) +11, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +8, Knowledge (engineering) +8, Knowledge (geography) +8, Knowledge (history) +8, Knowledge (local) +12, Knowledge (nature) +8, Knowledge (nobility) +9, Knowledge (planes) +8, Knowledge (religion) +8, Linguistics +18, Perception +26, Sense Motive +15, Sleight of Hand +5, Spellcraft +18, Stealth +25; Racial Modifiers +2 Intimidate
Languages Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Infernal, Orc, Polyglot, Sylvan, Tengu, Tien, Varisian
SQ alchemy (alchemy crafting +11), inspiration (9/day), investigator talents (charmer, coax information, combat inspiration, eidetic recollection, expanded inspiration, honeyed words, mutagen), keen recollection, mutagen (+4/-2, +2 natural armor, 110 minutes), orc blood, poison lore, swift alchemy, trapfinding +5
Other Gear +3 shadow, improved mithral chain shirt, +1 adaptive composite shortbow (+2 Str), +2 inspired sword cane, arrows (40), blunt arrows (40), dagger, morningstar, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of giant strength +2, circlet of persuasion, cloak of resistance +3, eyes of the eagle, handy haversack, headband of vast intelligence +2, ring of protection +1, alchemy crafting kit, backpack, bedroll, belt pouch, flint and steel, ink, black, inkpen, masterwork thieves' tools, mess kit, pot, soap, torch (10), trail rations (5), waterskin, 4,874 gp
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Special Abilities
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Alchemy +11 (Su) +11 to Craft (Alchemy) to create alchemical items, can Id potions by touch.
Charmer (3/day) (Ex) Can roll 2d20 for Diplomacy check and take the better result.
Circlet of persuasion +3 competence bonus to CHA-based checks (skills already included).
Coax information (Ex) Can use Bluff or Diplomacy to force an opponent to act friendly.
Combat Inspiration (Ex) Applying inspiration to attacks/saves only costs 1 point.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Eidetic Recollection (Su) Can always take 10 on Knowledge checks, use 1 inspiration to take 20.
Expanded Inspiration (Ex) Free Inspiration on Diplomacy, Heal, Perception, Profession, Sense Motive (if trained).
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Honeyed Words (3/day) (Ex) Can roll 2d20 for Bluff check and take the better result.
Immunity to Poison You are immune to poison.
Inspiration (+1d6, 9/day) (Ex) Use 1 point, +1d6 to trained skill or ability check. Use 2 points, to add to attack or save.
Mutagen This discovery gives the alchemist the mutagen class ability, as described in the Advanced Player's Guide. (This discovery exists so alchemist archetypes who have variant mutagens, such as the mindchemist, can learn how to make standard mutage
Mutagen (DC 19) (Su) Mutagen adds +4 to a physical & -2 to a mental attribute, and +2 nat. armor for 110 minutes.
Orc Blood Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.
Orc Ferocity (1/day) If brought below 0 Hp, can act as though disabled for 1 rd.
Poison Lore (Ex) After 1 min can use Know to ID poisons, 1 min more to neutralize with Craft (alchemy).
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Studied Combat (+5, 4 rounds) (Ex) As a move action, study foe to gain bonus to att & dam for duration or until use studied strike.
Studied Strike +4d6 (Ex) As a free action on a melee hit, end studied combat vs. foe to add precision dam.
Swift Alchemy (Ex) You can construct alchemical items in half the normal time.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +5 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
For purpose of studied strike I will assume studied combat was in play for the first attack, and then turned off for all other attacks in that round
No mutagen no extract, no mutagen, no haste just studied combat and studied strike with power attack and furious focus.
DPR 36.58 This numbers seems a bit high, but not more than 2 or 3 so I will say it is a nonfactor.
Now to add in the mutagen giving strength a +4 alchemical bonus, haste, and flanking.
DPR 74.52
Now of this version also has the inspiring enhancement, but it can only be used for 10 attacks, assuming it never comes up at any other point, since this investigator has 10 uses. Each use last for one attack, not for the entire round.
It is a free action however and with the talent and inspriration that 1d6 is doubled for an average of 7 to the attack roll.
Adding this to the 2nd iterative attack from haste pushes the DPR up to 81.21.
I do not know which extracts would best boost DPR so I will let someone else make a suggestion or if you have an investigator build present it. You can do the math or I can do the math.
This link inspired this thread.
The idea is to have a build that is playable in a real game, not something that has saves of +3 at level 11 and an AC of 15 just to do a lot of damage.
I would just like to say my level 12 slayer deals around 150dpr...
I know a level 11 can get over 100DPR. If I can't get this investigator to at least 100 I am not going to bother posting a slayer.
I'll take a stab at a damage-focused investigator. Mind if I use the Empiricist archetype?
The DPR given above is about right for a non-optimized CRB only fighter, given the level. I'd say that's a decent benchmark for a class that isn't really meant to be a powerhouse in combat.
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I took a quick stab at a TWF whip investigator, it seemed like a fun idea. His stats really suffer from not using long-term buffs since he relies on Mage Armor for AC, so I made character blocks both with and without 1h+ buffs.
Heroism, Mage Armor, Barkskin, Mutagen and Studied Combat are included. This is Wally's default setup when entering what he'd consider potentially dangerous territory.
Wally the Whip
Male half-orc investigator (empiricist) 11 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 30, 100)
CN Medium humanoid (human, orc)
Init +8; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +25
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Defense
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AC 31, touch 21, flat-footed 23 (+4 armor, +1 deflection, +8 Dex, +2 luck, +6 natural)
hp 91 (11d8+33)
Fort +13, Ref +23, Will +15 (+4 save vs. illusion and disbelievable effects)
Defensive Abilities trap sense +3; Resist unfailing logic
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 fortuitous whip +21/+16 (1d3+10 nonlethal+1d6 acid) or
+1 holy living steel whip +21/+16 (1d3+14 nonlethal+1d6 acid plus 2d6 vs. evil)
Ranged +1 composite shortbow +24/+19 (1d6+6/×3+1d6 acid)
Special Attacks studied combat (+5, 4 rounds), studied strike +4d6
Investigator (Empiricist) Extracts Prepared (CL 11th; concentration +15)
4th—echolocation[UM], freedom of movement, restoration
3rd—fly (2), heroism (2), tongues
2nd—barkskin (2), investigative mind[ACG], invisibility (2)
1st—comprehend languages, cure light wounds, disguise self, identify, long arm[ACG], long arm[ACG]
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 26, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 7
Base Atk +8; CMB +15; CMD 30
Feats Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Slashing Grace[ACG], Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (whip), Whip Mastery[UC]
Traits fate's favored, student of philosophy
Skills Acrobatics +18, Appraise +6, Bluff +14, Climb +7, Craft (alchemy) +20 (+31 to create alchemical items), Diplomacy +14 (+20 to gather information (You can use your Intelligence Modifier instead of Charisma)), Disable Device +17, Disguise +0, Escape Artist +10, Fly +11, Heal +2, Intimidate +2, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +11, Knowledge (history) +11, Knowledge (local) +13, Knowledge (planes) +11, Knowledge (religion) +11, Linguistics +10, Perception +25, Ride +10, Sense Motive +20, Sleight of Hand +15, Spellcraft +20, Stealth +24, Survival +2, Swim +2, Use Magic Device +20; Racial Modifiers +2 Intimidate, +2 Knowledge (local), ceaseless observation
Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Giant, Orc, Osiriani, Ancient, Varisian
SQ alchemy (alchemy crafting +11), inspiration (1d8, 9/day), investigator talents (amazing inspiration, combat inspiration, infusion, mutagen, quick study), keen recollection, living steel, mutagen (+4/-2, +2 natural armor, 110 minutes), orc blood, trapfinding +5
Combat Gear deliquescent gloves, jingasa of the fortunate soldier, mutagen, wand of mage armor (50 charges); Other Gear +1 composite shortbow, +1 fortuitous whip, +1 holy living steel whip, belt of physical might +2 (Dex, Con), cloak of resistance +4, eyes of the eagle, handy haversack, headband of vast intelligence +2, ring of feather falling, ring of protection +1, masterwork thieves' tools, 123 gp
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Special Abilities
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Alchemy +11 (Su) +11 to Craft (Alchemy) to create alchemical items, can Id potions by touch.
Ceaseless Observation (Ex) Use INT instead of CHA for gather information (+6)
Combat Inspiration (Ex) Applying inspiration to attacks/saves only costs 1 point.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deliquescent gloves +1d6 acid dam to touch/weapon att. Natural/unarmed att is immune to ooze acid & doesn't split.
Fate's Favored Increase luck bonuses by 1.
Infusion When created an extract can be used by anyone, but takes up a slot until used.
Inspiration (+1d8, 9/day) (Ex) Use 1 point, +1d6 to trained skill or ability check. Use 2 points, to add to attack or save.
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) Activate to negate a critical hit or sneak attack as an immediate action.
Living Steel Some trees suck up potent minerals through their roots the same way others draw water from the ground. Though these trees blunt saws and axes used to hew them and shrug off fire, they eventually succumb to time or the elements. When properly harveste
Mutagen This discovery gives the alchemist the mutagen class ability, as described in the Advanced Player's Guide. (This discovery exists so alchemist archetypes who have variant mutagens, such as the mindchemist, can learn how to make standard mutage
Mutagen (DC 19) (Su) Mutagen adds +4 to a physical & -2 to a mental attribute, and +2 nat. armor for 110 minutes.
Orc Blood Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.
Quick Study (Ex) Use studied combat as a swift action.
Ring of feather falling Feather fall activates if you fall more than 5 ft.
Slashing Grace (Whip) Treat chosen weapon as 1-handed piercing weapon and can had Dex instead of Str to dmg.
Student of Philosophy Use Int instead of Cha for Diplomacy checks to persuade others and Bluff checks to lie.
Studied Combat (+5, 4 rounds) (Ex) As a swift action, study foe to gain bonus to att & dam for duration or until use studied strike.
Studied Strike +4d6 (Ex) As a free action on a melee hit, end studied combat vs. foe to add precision dam.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +5 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Unfailing Logic +4 (Ex) +4 save vs. illusion and disbelievable effects
Whip Mastery Using a whip does not provoke attacks of opportunity
This is Wally when he was just woken up and have no active buffs apart from Studied Combat.
Wally the Whip
Male half-orc investigator (empiricist) 11 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 30, 100)
CN Medium humanoid (human, orc)
Init +6; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +23
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Defense
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AC 19, touch 19, flat-footed 13 (+1 deflection, +6 Dex, +2 luck)
hp 91 (11d8+33)
Fort +11, Ref +19, Will +14 (+4 save vs. illusion and disbelievable effects)
Defensive Abilities trap sense +3; Resist unfailing logic
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 fortuitous whip +17/+12 (1d3+9 nonlethal+1d6 acid) or
+1 holy living steel whip +17/+12 (1d3+12 nonlethal+1d6 acid plus 2d6 vs. evil)
Ranged +1 composite shortbow +20/+15 (1d6+6/×3+1d6 acid)
Special Attacks studied combat (+5, 4 rounds), studied strike +4d6
Investigator (Empiricist) Extracts Prepared (CL 11th; concentration +15)
4th—echolocation[UM], freedom of movement, restoration
3rd—fly (2), heroism (2), tongues
2nd—barkskin (2), investigative mind[ACG], invisibility (2)
1st—comprehend languages, cure light wounds, disguise self, identify, long arm[ACG], long arm[ACG]
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +8; CMB +13; CMD 28
Feats Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Slashing Grace[ACG], Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (whip), Whip Mastery[UC]
Traits fate's favored, student of philosophy
Skills Acrobatics +14, Bluff +12, Climb +5, Craft (alchemy) +18 (+29 to create alchemical items), Diplomacy +12 (+18 to gather information (You can use your Intelligence Modifier instead of Charisma)), Disable Device +15, Fly +7, Intimidate +0, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +9, Knowledge (history) +9, Knowledge (local) +11, Knowledge (planes) +9, Knowledge (religion) +9, Linguistics +8, Perception +23, Sense Motive +18, Sleight of Hand +11, Spellcraft +18, Stealth +20, Use Magic Device +18; Racial Modifiers +2 Intimidate, +2 Knowledge (local), ceaseless observation
Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Giant, Orc, Osiriani, Ancient, Varisian
SQ alchemy (alchemy crafting +11), inspiration (1d8, 9/day), investigator talents (amazing inspiration, combat inspiration, infusion, mutagen, quick study), keen recollection, living steel, mutagen (+4/-2, +2 natural armor, 110 minutes), orc blood, trapfinding +5
Combat Gear deliquescent gloves, jingasa of the fortunate soldier, mutagen, wand of mage armor (50 charges); Other Gear +1 composite shortbow, +1 fortuitous whip, +1 holy living steel whip, belt of physical might +2 (Dex, Con), cloak of resistance +4, eyes of the eagle, handy haversack, headband of vast intelligence +2, ring of feather falling, ring of protection +1, masterwork thieves' tools, 123 gp
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Special Abilities
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Alchemy +11 (Su) +11 to Craft (Alchemy) to create alchemical items, can Id potions by touch.
Ceaseless Observation (Ex) Use INT instead of CHA for gather information (+6)
Combat Inspiration (Ex) Applying inspiration to attacks/saves only costs 1 point.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deliquescent gloves +1d6 acid dam to touch/weapon att. Natural/unarmed att is immune to ooze acid & doesn't split.
Fate's Favored Increase luck bonuses by 1.
Infusion When created an extract can be used by anyone, but takes up a slot until used.
Inspiration (+1d8, 9/day) (Ex) Use 1 point, +1d6 to trained skill or ability check. Use 2 points, to add to attack or save.
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) Activate to negate a critical hit or sneak attack as an immediate action.
Living Steel Some trees suck up potent minerals through their roots the same way others draw water from the ground. Though these trees blunt saws and axes used to hew them and shrug off fire, they eventually succumb to time or the elements. When properly harveste
Mutagen This discovery gives the alchemist the mutagen class ability, as described in the Advanced Player's Guide. (This discovery exists so alchemist archetypes who have variant mutagens, such as the mindchemist, can learn how to make standard mutage
Mutagen (DC 19) (Su) Mutagen adds +4 to a physical & -2 to a mental attribute, and +2 nat. armor for 110 minutes.
Orc Blood Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.
Quick Study (Ex) Use studied combat as a swift action.
Ring of feather falling Feather fall activates if you fall more than 5 ft.
Slashing Grace (Whip) Treat chosen weapon as 1-handed piercing weapon and can had Dex instead of Str to dmg.
Student of Philosophy Use Int instead of Cha for Diplomacy checks to persuade others and Bluff checks to lie.
Studied Combat (+5, 4 rounds) (Ex) As a swift action, study foe to gain bonus to att & dam for duration or until use studied strike.
Studied Strike +4d6 (Ex) As a free action on a melee hit, end studied combat vs. foe to add precision dam.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +5 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Unfailing Logic +4 (Ex) +4 save vs. illusion and disbelievable effects
Whip Mastery Using a whip does not provoke attacks of opportunity
Investigator's complete lack of bonus feats makes low level combat very frustrating for more complicated builds. Wally's best off using weapon finesse and a normal rapier at levels 1-4, making him spectacularly underwhelming.
In hindsight, this build could be a lot better (and come online faster!) if it used TWF with rapiers instead of whips. Weapon Finesse at 1, Weapon Focus at 3, Fencing Grace at 5, then take TWF feats and utilize effortless lace. Replace Whip Mastery with Piranha Strike and we're in business. It would also open up the Inspired weapon enchantment, which is not available for whips.
The Investigator suffer somewhat from the limitations of the traditional "single round DPR calculation". At level 11 they have access to polymorph options which makes strength investigators very brutal in combat, but because of the action investment needed to pre-buff it's not really a viable option for a DPR comparison.
Issues here:
1. You are wasting five feats to get Skill Focus, Charmer, Expanded Inspiration, Honeyed Words and Coax Information, when you should be good in terms of skills - plus, your other party members should be able to fill in the spots, you don't need to do everything. These feats are better off being used to get a) Domino Strike, b) Dodge, c) Desperate Battler, d) Weapon Focus, e) Amazing Inspiration. All of these would increase your combat prowess while only reducing your skill capacities by a minimum amount. You'll still have plenty points to go around.
2. Enlarge Person. It's your greatest friend. Use it.
Why a swird cane? Longspear can use inspired as well.
Also Lirya has the right of it. Transformed investigators do loads of damage.
Why a swird cane? Longspear can use inspired as well.
I didn't see it. Thanks for the suggestion.
I just find it funny that people put so much thought and throw on so many magical items and buffs to make classes do things that they weren't designed to do.
The Investigator isn't designed to be a powerhouse, in-the-thick-of-battle type of role. It is designed to be the knowledgeable and skillful thinker, who can also hold his own in a fight by using his wits and tactics to overcome his mightier foes.So what if you can deal so much damage by drinking these potions, and wearing those rings and amulets, the Fighter and/or Slayer over there can deal that much damage and probably more without any of that stuff, so save your spells/extracts/gold/time/effort doing what you do best and quit trying to take over roles that a class wasn't meant to take over. There is a reason why every single class has a "ROLE" paragraph written in with their class description.
Brother ... give me Five!
I just find it funny that people put so much thought and throw on so many magical items and buffs to make classes do things that they weren't designed to do.
The Investigator isn't designed to be a powerhouse, in-the-thick-of-battle type of role. It is designed to be the knowledgeable and skillful thinker, who can also hold his own in a fight by using his wits and tactics to overcome his mightier foes.So what if you can deal so much damage by drinking these potions, and wearing those rings and amulets, the Fighter and/or Slayer over there can deal that much damage and probably more without any of that stuff, so save your spells/extracts/gold/time/effort doing what you do best and quit trying to take over roles that a class wasn't meant to take over. There is a reason why every single class has a "ROLE" paragraph written in with their class description.
These investigator builds are still the skillful guy who knows things, they can also fight really well. The idea is that there's no reason to be bad in combat if you have the opportunity to be decent without sacrificing your strengths.
The party may not need your attacks to win fights, but the day they do, they'll thank you for it, and you'll still be the ultimate skill monkey.
It was just a thought experiment. Unless someone has massive improvements I don't see this investigator going past 130.
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Except that you ARE sacrificing your strengths, I feel most Investigators should carry maybe 2-3 strength/constitution-enhancing extracts at most, while their others should be to help them with their actual role, like Identify, Alter Self, Fox's Cunning, etc.
You realize that Alter Self is a combat extract, right? Alter self will give you a +2 to STR, and three primary natural attacks per round.
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I just find it funny that people put so much thought and throw on so many magical items and buffs to make classes do things that they weren't designed to do.
Several reasons.
First, because you're wrong --- an investigator is supposed to be a combat-effective character.
Second, because whether an investigator is designed to be combat-effective or not, people generally don't like playing situationally useless characters, especially in a game where combat generally takes much more than half of the actual clock time during the playing session.
Third -- and therefore -- this is partly or largely a thought-experiment to determine exactly what kind of a role an investigator can be expected to play in a party as a secondary fighter.
Unfortunately, "using wits and tactics to overcome his mightier foes" isn't really an effective battle plan. One of the key questions is whether or not the mechanics that partially represent these "wits and tactics" (e.g. studied strike) actually work effectively to allow him to do that -- or whether we're talking about another rogue here who is sent for pizza at the beginning of each action sequence.
Also, remember that extracts are, y'know, yoinked out of a book full of extracts. Just because you've prepared combat extracts today doesn't mean you can't prepare something else tomorrow.
If I know there's a big fight coming, I'm going to prepare combat extracts. If I think I'll need to do some investigatin', I'll prepare more investigatin' extracts. Simple as that.
Use Heroism, Mutagen and Monstrous Physique II to turn into a 4 armed gargoyle. Using the above build and power attacking we get: Bite +23 (1d8+19), 4 Claws +20 (1d8+19), Gore +20 (1d8+19).
Against AC 25 that gives a DPR of 122.14
Easy ways to optimize your build further is to grab sacred tattoo + fate's favored, student of philosophy + empiricist and exchange the circlet of persuasion for jingasa of the fortunate soldier. Get an amulet of mighty fists. Increase your strength by 1 and reduce your intelligence by 1 so that they are both even numbers. This should buff your DPR to between 140 and 150 without affecting your skills or coin spent by much.
Monstrous Physique I -> Gargoyle or Popobala should give passable DPR for encounters where you wish to save your level 4 extracts.
I like this. I like this a lot.
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You realize that Alter Self is a combat extract, right? Alter self will give you a +2 to STR, and three primary natural attacks per round.
Except that you ARE sacrificing your strengths, I feel most Investigators should carry maybe 2-3 strength/constitution-enhancing extracts at most, while their others should be to help them with their actual role, like Identify, Alter Self, Fox's Cunning, etc.
You realize there are a lot of other uses for alter self, right?
Also, where are you getting the three natural attacks from?
Lizard Folk or Troglodyte. Both are humanoids.
This creature is particularly skilled at making attacks with its natural weapons.
Prerequisite: Three or more natural attacks.
Benefit: The creature's secondary attacks with natural weapons take only a –2 penalty.
Normal: Without this feat, the creature's secondary attacks with natural weapons take a –5 penalty.
You take a bigger penalty. That doesn't mean you can't use them without the feat. I may be missing something, but Multiattack seems straightforward to me. I'm not Imbicatus, so he probably knows something more about your question than me.
and their bite and claws are primary so multiattack is only used if you use natural attacks in addition to a weapon.
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No, natural attacks do not use iterative attacks. You use each attack once per round, and it is set as primary or secondary. If your attack is primary it is at full BAB, and if it is secondary it is at BAB-5 and has 1/2 STR bonus on damage.
Lizardfolk and Trogs both have three primary attacks of claw/claw/bite, which can be made at full bab if you don't use weapons. If you do use weapons (Armor Spikes or Unarmed Strikes are good for this as they don't use limbs), you still get those three attacks with -5 to hit on them.
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I just find it funny that people put so much thought and throw on so many magical items and buffs to make classes do things that they weren't designed to do.
The Investigator isn't designed to be a powerhouse, in-the-thick-of-battle type of role. It is designed to be the knowledgeable and skillful thinker, who can also hold his own in a fight by using his wits and tactics to overcome his mightier foes.So what if you can deal so much damage by drinking these potions, and wearing those rings and amulets, the Fighter and/or Slayer over there can deal that much damage and probably more without any of that stuff, so save your spells/extracts/gold/time/effort doing what you do best and quit trying to take over roles that a class wasn't meant to take over. There is a reason why every single class has a "ROLE" paragraph written in with their class description.
Investigators live to solve mysteries and find inventive ways to get out of jams. They serve as advisors and support for their adventuring parties, but can take center stage when knowledge and cunning are needed. No slouches in battle, they know how to make surprise attacks and use inspiration to bring those attacks home.
Nothing about being mediocre at combat.
And the thing where he gave up so much out of combat stuff to be so good at combat is a big stinking load.
Let's look at these skills.
Acrobatics +5,
Appraise +8,
Bluff +16,
Climb +8,
Diplomacy +16, +1d6
Disable Device +22,
Disguise +16,
Intimidate +4,
Knowledge (arcana) +11, +1d6
Knowledge (dungeoneering) +8, +1d6
Knowledge (engineering) +8, +1d6
Knowledge (geography) +8, +1d6
Knowledge (history) +8,+1d6
Knowledge (local) +12, +1d6
Knowledge (nature) +8, +1d6
Knowledge (nobility) +9, +1d6
Knowledge (planes) +8,+1d6
Knowledge (religion) +8, +1d6
Linguistics +18, +1d6
Perception +26,
Sense Motive +15,
Sleight of Hand +5,
Spellcraft +18, +1d6
Stealth +25;
Now consider that due to amazing inspiration most of these will have a free +1d6 attached as I noted above and the numbers start to look rather amazing for a character built for combat.
In fact for someone built for combat he's not built the way I would do it. I like to build characters like this able to get away with quite a bit out of combat without needing Carhming, Honeyed Words, or coax information.
In fact he seems to have gone out of his way to produce a diplomancer that can fight rather than a fighter with diplomacy.
So how much of his character choice is actually dedicated to combat?
His scores?
Well 19 in Int puts him in Wizard territory. 12 Con is not something I'd ever be comfortable with on a combat character.
The biggest combat choice he made their was 9 charisma and 19 strength.
Maybe in talents?
As far as I can tell: (his 7 talents)
Charmer (3/day) (Ex) Can roll 2d20 for Diplomacy check and take the better result.
Coax information (Ex) Can use Bluff or Diplomacy to force an opponent to act friendly.
Combat Inspiration (Ex) Applying inspiration to attacks/saves only costs 1 point.
Eidetic Recollection (Su) Can always take 10 on Knowledge checks, use 1 inspiration to take 20.
Expanded Inspiration (Ex) Free Inspiration on Diplomacy, Heal, Perception, Profession, Sense Motive (if trained).
Honeyed Words (3/day) (Ex) Can roll 2d20 for Bluff check and take the better result.
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Mutagen (DC 19) (Su) Mutagen adds +4 to a physical & -2 to a mental attribute, and +2 nat. armor for 110 minutes.
Of his 7 talents only two are strictly for combat use. The rest are social/knowledge talents.
Oh and he's using a sword cane. A weapon whose only distinction is that it is more socially acceptable to be using that than a longspear.
Personally I'd just find a good way to stow the longspear if that's the case.
And you know the beautiful part about his extracts?
Most of those are utility. Roughly 33% of his extracts are geared towards buffs.
So can he hit 100dpr with this build?
Oh yes. Yes he can. Easy. And he won't have to sacrifice much if at all. Personally I don't think rolling 2d20 on a diplomacy roll is even necessary. Nor do I think that particular use of intimidate comes up enough that I'd want coax information.
So no, being heavy in skills does not mean being bad in a fight. If he is somehow managing to be better than fighter at fighting he's only been illustrating a problem with that class since 3.forever.
And now I must drag myself to the coffee.
My cheeseometer has detected badwrongfun!
I'm just saying Wraithstrike made this thread in response to people claiming that the investigator dealt more damage than the slayer, and those people were the ones who would play their investigator by spend 2 or so rounds before combat buffing themselves up with extracts, using up magic item slots to give it extra attack boosts, strength boosts and what not, when the slayer can deal the same amount of damage with no buffs and no magic items.
1) Being able to perform two roles is better than just 1. See TarkXT's post to see how easy that is.
2) Combat takes up most of the game, I find, even at roleplay heavy tables. (And I play largely at roleplay-heavy tables.)
3) This is as valid a playstyle as playing the "proper" investigator.
Personally, I probably wouldn't play an investigator myself, and if I did it wouldn't be like this. The class just isn't my style. However, if someone wanted to participate in one of my games and play the investigator, I'd tell them "Go for it." If it happened to be this sort of investigator, more power to them.
I always make my character, whatever class they are, combat capable because, dangit, that's Pathfinder's focus. If your character can't contribute to a battle either by preparing gear, bolstering other party members, debilitating the enemy or directly participating in combat, you're not contributing to 50% or more of most gaming sessions. Building your investigator to actually be good at fighting is NOT a bad thing.
Who says it's a contest?
I could pump all my feats into skill and inspiration feats and be an empiricist, but I'm already as good as the party needs at skills just being an empiricist. I could dip Inspired Blade for Dex-to-hit/damage and Int-based Panache to help in fights and parry stuff.
You can have a Rogue-ish guy who uses alchemy, or you can have a Rogue-ish guy who uses alchemy and has a mean left hook. After a certain amount of investment, skills are just not useful anymore.
Also, even a combat focused Investigator isn't outclassing a freaking Paladin. There's no power gaming involved in Smite Evil.
2) your team members may be suffering the lack of the proper investigator role, and 3) players playing the paladin or barb may not like being outshined by a powergamer.
To 2) I respond with: if you're playing this right, you ARE already more than capable of filling the skillmonkey role.
To 3) I respond with: firstly, this isn't powergaming; this is optimization; and yes, there's a HUGE difference between the two.
Powergaming = sacrificing all other aspects of the game to focus on whatever it is you want to focus on. It means giving up your ability to, say, use skills or have a solid character concept that makes sense in the world in order to focus on, say, combat ENTIRELY.
Optimization = putting the concept first, then making it as strong as you can given the constraints of that concept.
What is being done here is optimization. Understanding that, we now need to ask "What sort of party are you going to use this build with?" Myself, I'd use it at a table with other optimizers; I wouldn't use it at a table with people who are new to the game. Heck, I just scrapped a character in a 3.5 game because my character was too powerful (the other players aren't as experienced with the system as they like to think). I replaced that character with something more manageable.
If everyone at a table is optimizing, though, and the DM is slugging at you with hard encounters, this sort of build becomes thrilling and steps up to the challenge of both combat and non-combat encounters. That is a good thing.
You can have a Rogue-ish guy who uses alchemy, or you can have a Rogue-ish guy who uses alchemy and has a mean left hook. After a certain amount of investment, skills are just not useful anymore.
Basically, this. It's very easy to give yourself too high of certain skills. Only in certain corner cases is it worth it to keep superpumping a given skill (such as Stealth, which is useful if you want to Snipe opponents but have to deal with that -20 to Stealth for doing so).
Also, even a combat focused Investigator isn't outclassing a freaking Paladin. There's no power gaming involved in Smite Evil.Although, you can't smite evil if you fall...
Elaborate Oceans 11 type shenanigans to make the paladin fall are not allowed.
Also, even a combat focused Investigator isn't outclassing a freaking Paladin. There's no power gaming involved in Smite Evil.Although, you can't smite evil if you fall...
Yeah, I dunno - I rarely have to deal with the "You gonna fall!" threats from a DM, if ever, but there IS always that one DM that makes that threat over the tiniest "infractions"...
...but I won't go into detail about that because NOT ANOTHER PALADIN THREAD.
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You're missing my point, I said nothing about not focusing on combat, I said don't worry about your damage output.
And what exactly does an investigator do in combat, if not deal damage? They don't have blasting or battlefield control, and any buffing extracts you're handing out to the rest of the party should be done pre-combat (my alchemist usually passed them out at the start of the day). The action economy for trying to hand out extracts mid-battle is absolutely horrendous.
If the investigator doesn't have anything to use their combat actions for anything except dealing damage. Which means your damage output is a pretty important part of being an effective combatant.
You're missing my point, I said nothing about not focusing on combat, I said don't worry about your damage output.And what exactly does an investigator do in combat, if not deal damage? They don't have blasting or battlefield control, and any buffing extracts you're handing out to the rest of the party should be done pre-combat (my alchemist usually passed them out at the start of the day). The action economy for trying to hand out extracts mid-battle is absolutely horrendous.
If the investigator doesn't have anything to use their combat actions for anything except dealing damage. Which means your damage output is a pretty important part of being an effective combatant.
Well they do get pretty good use out of aid another if you work for it. Though I feel it's far inferior and just as "expensive" as making yourself good at combat.
Arguably Investigstors can perform a very effective form of Battlefield control, Chengar. Enlarge Person + Long Arm (together in an admixture vial for the sake of action economy) with a Longspear and Combat Reflexes gives you formidable circle of Attacks of Opportunity.
Making movement and casting harder and limiting enemy options? Sounds like battlefield control to me.
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Investigators have a very poor 1-4 levels. By level 5 things start to look up and combat efficiency kicks in.
On dex builds I like to Dip 1 level of Inspired Blade Swashbuckler + Fencing Grace to help my low level combat problems. Grabbing a dex mutagen next really helps kick that damage up till Fast study at 5 (via feat). After 5 I'm not putting out the numbers of a dedicated melee but I'm getting close and they can't do half of what the investigator can.
I haven't done a Strength build yet but Abusing Alter Self and Polymorph spells sure is fun. Would make for an interesting investigator. But I really like the Dex build myself.
Arguably Investigstors can perform a very effective form of Battlefield control, Chengar. Enlarge Person + Long Arm (together in an admixture vial for the sake of action economy) with a Longspear and Combat Reflexes gives you formidable circle of Attacks of Opportunity.
Making movement and casting harder and limiting enemy options? Sounds like battlefield control to me.
Quite true, though that form of battlefield control depends on the ability to effectively inflict damage with your weapon in order to work. After all, a wide field of AoOs is only an effective deterrent if your attacks can hit and do significant damage.
You can turn a reach build into something pretty nasty if you combine Cornugon Smash, Sickening Offensive and a Fortuitous weapon enchant. Pseudo-iterative attacks with a shaken debuff (and sickened if it's your studied target). A strength build with moderate dexterity (boosted with a belt) can deal solid damage, lock down movement, hamper casting and debuff at the same time.
It's not perfect/eye-wateringly high DPS but does an interesting job for fairly low feat & gear investment.
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You can turn a reach build into something pretty nasty if you combine Cornugon Smash, Sickening Offensive and a Fortuitous weapon enchant. Pseudo-iterative attacks with a shaken debuff (and sickened if it's your studied target). A strength build with moderate dexterity (boosted with a belt) can deal solid damage, lock down movement, hamper casting and debuff at the same time.
It's not perfect/eye-wateringly high DPS but does an interesting job for fairly low feat & gear investment.
Cornugon Smash doesn't work on Attacks of Opportunity, assuming that's what you were going for.
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Cornugon Smash doesn't work on Attacks of Opportunity, assuming that's what you were going for.You can turn a reach build into something pretty nasty if you combine Cornugon Smash, Sickening Offensive and a Fortuitous weapon enchant. Pseudo-iterative attacks with a shaken debuff (and sickened if it's your studied target). A strength build with moderate dexterity (boosted with a belt) can deal solid damage, lock down movement, hamper casting and debuff at the same time.
It's not perfect/eye-wateringly high DPS but does an interesting job for fairly low feat & gear investment.
While it's not explicitly listed, this FAQ suggests it should.
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While it's not explicitly listed, this FAQ suggests it should.Cornugon Smash doesn't work on Attacks of Opportunity, assuming that's what you were going for.You can turn a reach build into something pretty nasty if you combine Cornugon Smash, Sickening Offensive and a Fortuitous weapon enchant. Pseudo-iterative attacks with a shaken debuff (and sickened if it's your studied target). A strength build with moderate dexterity (boosted with a belt) can deal solid damage, lock down movement, hamper casting and debuff at the same time.
It's not perfect/eye-wateringly high DPS but does an interesting job for fairly low feat & gear investment.
There's no reason why that FAQ answer couldn't have been more general if it wanted to include all free actions that trigger off of attacks.
Of note here is that your numbers assume flanking as well.
Did you include studied combat into the investigator numbers?